UKC

Go to news 24: two planes have struck the World Trade Centre buildings in New York.

Bob

In reply to Bob:

pictures and story here - supposed to be a terrorist attack!

http://www.sky.com/skynews/storytemplate/storytoppic/0,,30000-1029102,00.html

In reply to DaveR:
at least 6 dead & 1000 injured according to www.lemonde.fr - can't manage to access the BBC at the moment. Le Monde quoted a US airtraffic control guy as saying he couldn't believe it was an accident.

In reply to Doug:

they're getting reports in from uS Police that both planes were hijacked from Boston.

In reply to Jo:

and now they're reporting a third plane has been hijacked!

reuters say Palenstinian Terrorist Group has claimed responsibility.

In reply to Jo:
Where did you hear that a third plane had been hijacked?

wow. we just put cnn on about an hour ago, and that footage is like something out of a film. The second plane looks like a 737, it's supposed to have been hijacked out of boston according to CNN. It's manic over here, Pres. Bush has just made a speach, and the Pentagon Officials are now speaking. All they really say is that it is an act of terrorism and those responsible will be found. Anyone read Executive Orders (Tom Clancy)? This is as close as you can get.

wow. we just put cnn on about an hour ago, and that footage is like something out of a film. The second plane looks like a 737, it's supposed to have been hijacked out of boston according to CNN. It's manic over here, Pres. Bush has just made a speach, and the Pentagon Officials are now speaking. All they really say is that it is an act of terrorism and those responsible will be found. Anyone read Executive Orders (Tom Clancy)? This is as close as you can get.

In reply to Bob:

explosion around the pentagon now! Washington..........white house evacuated

In reply to DaveR:

Apparently there is allegedly a fire in the white house to!

Yeeha! the overthrow of the US Nanny state!

the pentagon had been hit, it's on fire and evac'ed now

they've just evac'ed the whitehouse, and will have called kneecap, so president bush, congress and the lot of the executive here, are now on way to Cheyenne Mountain. this is unbelievable

In reply to Jo:

a third plane has crashed near/in/on the pentagon

In reply to Hindu:
BBC radio 2 are covering it live at the moment

In reply to WillyB: US nanny state? I don't think so mate, we live in the Nanny state.

they;ve just shut off all US airports

In reply to AndrewB:

Sorry, worldwide police thought/economic control state.

can anyone post any links to the third plane crash story?

In reply to Hindu:

what's Cheyenne Mountain?

Bloody fuck.

G

In reply to WillyB: again, UK not US you are living proof! Not funny to joke about innocent people dying.

In reply to Daniel:

The Guardian are confirming that a third plane has crashed into the pentagon.

www.guardian.co.uk

G

In reply to AndrewB:

this is major scary stuff.........

cheyenne mountain is that NORAD place. if there's a threat to the president/whitehouse/congress (used to be nuclear attack) then they throw them all on planes/helicopters and fly them somewhere safe - continuation of government plan. it's never been done before, but i would have expect they've called it now but you'll never be told, kinda top secret...

i would continue, but i have a lecture to go to...this is scary stuff...bodies falling from burning buildings, all US airports closed, subway closed for most of the town, national guard call up here's being talked about.

In reply to Hindu:

this would have been great as a novel. As Real Life I don't like it quite so much.

In reply to Jo: Na, not if you were at Pearl Harbour.

In reply to AndrewB:

Sorry i forgot it was the UK who had "liberated" vietnam and columbia et al. Don't think it's funny innocent people die but don't think either that ignoranus Esso man bush is in charge of the US funny either.

In reply to Hindu:

another building exploding - near WTC

In reply to WillyB:

One of the towers has collasped!

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Completely?

News reports say the planes were hijacked, does that mean they had passengers on or were htey 'stolen'?

Hope Mr Bush doesn't go crazy and do anything stupid.

In reply to WillyB:

1 tower all collasped

yes they had passangers

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

where you getting this from?

G

In reply to Graham:

talksport MW

Of course I think America is heavy handed, monopolistic, imperialistic, authoritarian (I lived there 4 years, it certainly is that!) etc. But this is too much.

Whovever has done it is making thing much worse for both themselves, the people they think they represent and the rest of the world.

Can you really see the Americans who are really quite militaristic, just sitting back and taking this?

There is going to be some serious arse kicking, and I don't think that the targets of the are kickings will be able to count on Russia to help them out.

Not only overseas military action, but everyone with an eastern type name in the US will instantly be an "enemy".

These fuck heads have put the world back years. The bastards!

Trying to look on the positive side:

Come the nuclear winter our outdoor/survival skills will be in great demand.

JAMIE B.

In reply to Jamie B: I think your handle Huge anus was most accurate, I'd leave it out if I were you.

In reply to Bob: dread to think what the repercussions re. the US isolationist policies will be.

In reply to Nige White:

maybe worth directing your anger at Bush, whose hard-nosed stance has brought this on, rather than at the people whose homes have been being bulldozed for decades?

Whatever anyone thinks of Clinton he seems to have made honest attempts at peace-brokering in the Middle East.

Clare

In reply to Jamie B: Too many neg sides to mention. Buildering bans spring to mind.

In reply to Pete A:
There's going to be a huge problem all over the place (more than the US) with people being stuck at airports and not being able to get to airports to get home, as well. This thing will snowball.

God help everyone involved

In reply to Bob: Anyone know what's happened to the US and UK stock markets?

The FOOTSIE's down 197 pts, about 4%

In reply to Bob: from BBC
Two planes have crashed into the WorldTrade Center in New York, setting both its110-story towers ablaze and causing one ofthe buildings to collapse.A third aircraft was also reported to havecrashed near or into the Pentagon. Early reports on US TV suggest at least sixpeople were killed and more than 1,000injured in New York. The first plane wasbelieved to be a twin-engine commuter planecarrying around 50 passengers. The secondaircraft is understood to have been a Boeing737.The planes crashed within 18 minutes ofeach other, the second causing a hugefireball. Live TV pictures of the tragedy werebeamed around the world.US President George Bush described thecrashes as "an apparent terrorist attack" andvowed to "hunt down and find the folks"behind it.A Palestinian group - the Democratic Frontfor the Liberation of Palestine - has deniedTV reports in United Arab Emirates that itwas responsible.The planes were understood to have beenhijacked in Boston. All aircraft in the US havebeen grounded.The World Trade Center, the third tallestbuilding in the world, was bombed byterrorists in 1993.

And just reported that both towers have now collapsed! And Car bomb outside state dept.

In reply to Bob kate bob:

$ down, oil up, all US markets closed for the day

In reply to Bob:

Three planes. Passenger planes. Hijacked. Unknown numbers of passengers. Nobody claiming responsibility.

25,000 people inside the World Trade Centres when planes hit. Both towers have collapsed. Far from all those inside got out.

767, hijacked, flown into the Pentagon. Substantial damage.

It's really possible that you, or somebody you know, knows someone who died today as a result of this. Please keep that in mind when, or if, you post.

Charles

In reply to Bob kate bob:

According to the New York Times Wall St has been shut down.

In reply to Charles Arthur, UKC editor:
A fourth plane has just been hijacked

In reply to Charles Arthur, UKC editor: Try - 50,000.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

fourth plane on its way to Washington.

London Stock Exchange and Canary Wharf tower have now been evacuated and UK flights to US re-routed to Canada.

the 4th aircraft is reported en-route to Washington. all govt offices reported evac'ed and there's reports that Cannery Warf's being evac'ed too as well as a large crash at Pittsburg in W. PA

In reply to Bob kate bob:
i hope to god Blair the little Bush Crony who flies with Bush has grounded aircreaft in Britain or we could be just about to see it here too

In reply to Hindu:
2 planes reported on route to washington (BBC)

In reply to michaelw:

another plane has hit pittsburg

this is the US economy killed. all major exchanges have closed. Remeber the guy who bombed the WTC about 6 years ago? This was what he haa planned for the long term. There's quite a lot of islamophobia on the networks here, Bin Laden's being blamed. the university here's basically stopped for the day, most of the US has just come to a stand still.

In reply to Matt: Someone get a message to someone in govt to shut down UK airspace!

In reply to Matt: Someone get a message to someone in govt to shut down UK airspace! Black September is my bet

In reply to michaelw:

That would be very unlikely!

In reply to Bob:
Please hold the bullshit ... I know many people working in one of the towers .... or should I now say knew ...

In reply to WillyB: I dont think thats appropiate at this time!

In reply to WillyB: You are unbelievable!!

can anyone post any links to the third plane crash story?

In reply to Daniel:
Everythings sloooow but try www.guardian.co.uk

forth plane on route to washington has been shot down by US, apparently.

No more fucking sicko comment please - many of us know people in the States.

Latest from ananova:


A fourth plane has crashed in western Pennsylvania.

It is unclear whether it is the hijacked plane which had been heading for Washington.

The plane, believed to be a Boeing 767, crashed about eight miles east of Jennerstown.

The airport is about 80 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.

US fighter aircraft are now patrolling the skies over Washington.

In reply to brendonTendon:
###k this is one scary situation. I only hope there are cool heads in charge at present. All those people. Shit, awful.

In reply to kev:
can't access BBC or Guardian, for those wh can read French heres the first part of the latest Le Monde report

Les deux tours du World Trade Center se sont
effondrées, mardi 11 septembre, après avoir été
percutées, à 18 minutes d'intervalle, par deux avions de
ligne américains. L'un d'eux aurait été détourné à son
décollage de Boston. A Washington, deux explosions se
sont produites au Pentagone. La Maison Blanche, le
Pentagone le département d'Etat, le Trésor, ainsi que les
Nations unies ont été évacués. George W. Bush dénonce un "attentat terroriste".

(www.lemonde.fr)

In reply to Doug:

you can get into the bbc by using www2.bbc.co.uk

In reply to brendonTendon:

From www.cnn.com

Terror attacks hit U.S.
September 11, 2001 Posted: 1457 GMT


Flames and smoke erupt from the World Trade Center after a second plane crashes into the New York City landmark.


NEW YORK (CNN) -- Terrorists struck the United States Tuesday morning in harrowing, widespread attacks that included at least three commercial jet crashes into significant buildings.

• In the first attack, a plane smashed into the north tower of the World Trade Center in Manhattan shortly before 9 a.m., followed by another plane into the second tower about 20 minutes later. Both towers later collapsed. Sources told CNN that one of the planes was an American Airlines Boeing 767 that had been hijacked after take-off from Boston.

• About an hour later, a plane crashed into the Pentagon in Washington, part of which later collapsed.

• Sources say a second plane was heading toward the Pentagon; F-16 jets were in the air monitoring it.

• The Pentagon, the White House, the State Department, the Justice Department, the Capitol, the CIA and all other government buildings in Washington evacuated.

• In the first ever national ground stop of aircraft, all flights nationwide have been stopped at their departure airports.

• All international flights were diverted to Canada.

• Israel has evacuated all its missions around the world.

• President Bush cancelled an appearance in Florida to return to Washington, calling the crashes "apparent terrorist attacks" and "a national tragedy."

• In Chicago, the Sears Tower was evacuated; United Nations in New York evacuated.

• The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta was evacuated.

• The New York Port Authority said it had closed all bridges and tunnels into the city.

• New York's Bellevue Hospital was designated command central for handling the catastrophe. Several hospitals have already reported receiving victims with burns and head injuries.

• Large plane crashed 80 miles south of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, but it was unknown if this crash was connected to terrorist attacks.

• U.S. stock markets were closed after the New York attacks.

In reply to brendonTendon:
Brendon, just seems to busy each time I try, guess too many folk all trying to access at the same time.

In reply to Doug:

make sure you use www2. and not www. - I'm getting in no probs.

In reply to brendonTendon:

In case anyone needs this:



An emergency helpline has been set up for people in the UK following the multiple terrorist attacks in the US.

The Foreign Office says the phoneline for its consular emergency centre is for people concerned about relatives and British nationals.

The emergency number is 0207 008 0000.

it puts the usual nonsense we all worry about on this site into perspective

deeply worrying for everyone on the planet, and the future of mankind.

In reply to Dean:

I haven't written any bull regarding this. I came back from lunch to see on my TV at work, One of the towers of the World Trade Centre on fire. As I was watching this, the second plane struck the other tower. I then began this thread by stating these facts.

I sincerely hope that many of those in the towers managed to evacuate before the towers collapsed.

I may sound off at times but when lives are involved I don't.

Bob

In reply to Bob:
Was just replying to your thread, not accusing you of anything .... sorry if it sounded like that.
Deeply depressed by all this ...

From Reuters:

Massive Attacks Destroy World Trade Center, Hit Pentagon
September 11, 2001 11:10 AM ET
By Alan Elsner, National Correspondent

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Three hijacked planes crashed into major U.S. landmarks on Tuesday, destroying both of New York's mighty twin towers, hitting the Pentagon in Washington and plunging the United States into unprecedented chaos and panic.
Loss of life was expected to be catastrophic from the collapse of the giant towers of the World Trade Center where many thousands of people work. The two enormous edifices both fell in a huge cloud of smoke and fire two hours after the initial impacts.

New York Mayor Rudolph Giuliani said there had been a "tremendous number of lives lost" in the attacks on his city.

Another plane crashed near Pittsburgh. It was not clear if this was another attempted hijacking.

Hospitals in New York were overwhelmed with patients as a massive cloud billowed into the blue skies over Manhattan where the city skyline had been dramatically and permanently altered.

"Hundreds of people are burned from head to toe," said Dr. Steven Stern at St. Vincent's Hospital in the Greenwich Village neighborhood of lower Manhattan.

"The whole of lower Manhattan is coated in half an inch of dust," Reuters reporter Daniel Sternoff said.

BUSH CUTS SHORT VISIT

President Bush cut short a visit to Florida and rushed back to Washington to face the greatest crisis of his young presidency.

He called the deliberate aerial assaults an "apparent terrorist attack", and ordered a full-scale investigation. Early speculation about the source of the attack centered on Saudi-born guerrilla leader Osama Bin-Laden.

It was the most dramatic and deadly attack on the U.S. mainland in modern history. The attacks forced the evacuation of all government buildings in Washington, including the White House and other tall buildings around the country, cut cell phone communications on the East Coast and grounded all commercial planes in the United States.

Early reports said all three planes used in the attacks were hijacked, one of them from Boston and one from Washington. It was not immediately known who flew the planes and what happened to them.

The day of horror began around 9 a.m. in New York when the first plane plowed into the south tower of New York's World Trade Center, as thousands of workers were streaming into the building to begin their day.

It opened a huge hole near the top of the building. Two hours later, the whole building in which thousands of people collapsed on itself in a huge cloud of smoke and fire.

TV stations caught the second plane plowing into the second of the twin towers, exploding in a fire ball a few minutes after the first impact. That building caved in about an hour after the first.

Shortly afterward, a third plane crashed into or near the Pentagon in Washington, throwing people off their feet inside the building and setting off a massive fire.

Amid confusion, news organizations reported another explosion at the State Department but this was later denied. Other reports spoke of another hijacked plane heading toward the capital.

GOVERNMENT BUILDINGS EVACUATED

All government buildings including the White House and the Capitol and the CIA were evacuated. The Federal Aviation Authority grounded all planes in the United States, an unprecedented step.

"It's clear that this is terrorist-related, we're not sure who is responsible," one official said of the Pentagon attack.

"There was no advance warning of this," the official said on condition of anonymity.

One of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center was American Airlines' Flight 11 from Boston to Los Angeles, said Lori Bassani, spokesperson for American's flight attendants union.

Bassani said if full, the flight on the Boeing 767 would carry 158 passengers. That would include two pilots and nine or 10 flight attendants, she said.

She said she did not know how many people were on board.

"Terrorism against our nation will not stand," Bush said before leaving Florida for the capital.

"Today we've had a national tragedy. Two airplanes have crashed into the World Trade Center in an apparent terrorist attack on our country," he said, speaking before schoolchildren, teachers and parents at Emma E. Booker Elementary School, where he had planned to talk about education.

"I have spoken to the vice president, to the governor of New York, to the director of the FBI, and have ordered that the full resources of the federal government go to help the victims and the families and to conduct a full scale investigation to hunt down and to find those folks who committed this act," said Bush.

He called for a moment of silence. "May God bless the victims, their families and America," Bush said, his voice breaking with emotion.

Bin Laden, a Saudi millionaire and Islamic militant, believed to be in exile in Afghanistan, was blamed for the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in which 224 people died.

An Arab journalist with access to bin Laden told Reuters in London that the renegade Saudi three weeks ago had warned of an "unprecedented attack" on U.S. interests.

The previous worst act of terrorism in the United States was the 1995 bombing of the federal building in Oklahoma City in which 168 people died. Timothy McVeigh was executed for that attack earlier this year

A previous bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 resulted in six deaths and hundreds of injuries.

In reply to Bob:

here in Oxford we've had two police helicopters flying low over the city centre for two hours now. This is pretty unusual. Anyone else? Am I just being jumpy? How are things in London, anyone?

In reply to Clare A: Well from what I have heared, the LSE has been evacuated and a number of major banks in the city and canary warf have closed for the day.

In reply to Clare A:

Probably jumpy (hopefully) - but understandable.

In reply to Bob: Just remember that many people use humour to deal with distressing events. My first reation to the news was to ask if Godzilla had claimed responsibility.

In reply to TN:

Theres just been a report on ananova that there is celebrations in the streets of palestine, people throwing sweets, chanting god is great etc etc. "Nawal Abdel Fatah, 48, wearing a long black dress, threw sweets in the air, saying she was happy because "America is the head of the snake, America always stands by Israel in its war against us."

In reply to Mutton Cutlass:

The reports are correct but still, nobody has claimed responsibility - not Palestine (Yasser Arafat said he was horrified) and the Taliban have just held a press conference emphatically saying that they did not and Osama Bin Laden could not have. "This may be the work of governments," said the Taliban man. He didn't specify which.

Always remember at this stage that just because people are celebrating, it only means they didn't like those who suffered, not that they had a hand in it.

The first plane to hit the WTC had 57 passengers on board - I think the FBI/Secret Service will have checked the passenger manifest by now and video of people boarding.

I suspect the US is about to become a more locked-down place as a result of this. Possibly more xenophobic too; it's almost inconceivable this was an "insider" job like Oklahoma. It's on too big a scale.

Charles

In reply to Charles Arthur, UKC editor:

yeah, surely something of this scale must have government support behind it.

Just read the border with Mexico has been closed too.

In reply to brendonTendon:

Not necessarily, terrorists can be and generally are highly organised, besides you dont need money to hijack a plane, just highly motivated indviduals willing to die for a cause. I think what it does show is the ease at which terrorists can board planes presumably with weapons.

as a current US residenct i can tell you a few things from a people point of view. People are horrified and will be calling for heads on sticks for this. The general press feelings are very, very islamophobic which is worrying. basically the countyr had come to a stand still. people are all in the street watching TV's in bars/shops etc and radios from their cars. It's going to be an 'interesing' week and god only knows how many people have lost their lives. The ecomonic effects of this will no doubt turn american in on itself, xenophobia and isolationism will undoubtably result from this.

it's nice to know so many people care what's going on in the world.

In reply to WillyB: I want to be anonymous for this.
Willy, I am ASHAMED to share ANY interest with you, who is beneath contempt.
How many people have been killed today? How many spouses/sons/daughters/mothers/fathers have lost people they loved?
You are NOT worthy to comment.
Just pray I NEVER find out who you are, because you may find out what it's like to fly..
I have NEVER been so ashamed, by ANYTHING on this group, than I am now.
My thoughts are with ALL those who have been killed, or injured, by this mindless, senseless act.

In reply to Hindu:

...and now Bush has put the military on full alert...

In reply to Clare A: Oh grow up.
When are people going to help ANYONE with this kind of talk.
Palestinians, and Israelis have the same genetics.
Only religion splits them. Bloody fools.
I don't care who is right, or wrong.
I care about deluded idiots who shoot first, and ask questions later.
Such as Gerry Adams.
And yes, I lost a friend in Birmingham. He had Irish friends. Did that help???
Not likely.

Why just Bush? Why not Russia, who have been arming the 'other' side for 50+ years?

In reply to Tim the Grey:

tim i agree entirely. it's awful, 10 000 estimated killed. beyond words. as i just said on another thread here, I hope that those in power exercise that power honerably and seek justice not revenge.

i meant to agree with all regarding the comments made by willyB. regardless of political views this is a human disaster, lives are lives and over 10 000 may have been lost today, it's not the time for humour or politcal observations.

In reply to all:

My 'bloody f**k' posted earlier seems trite now, but I could almost repeat it. Simply the most *shocking* thing that has happened in my lifetime.

G

In reply to all:

More people died of malnutrition today than in this episode. Not so interestingly, of course.

In reply to john cox:

You just don't know when to stop do you?

Most people in here are reasonably intelligent and are probably aware that all over the world, every day, people are dying needlessly through famine, preventable disease, warfare.

However what has happened today has sent people the world over into shock, not because it is "interesting" but because the actuality of the plot of an American disaster movie happening in real life is too awful to comprehend.

I don't think this is the right time for your particular nasty brand of condescension John. It is bang out of place on this thread.

I, and everyone I know, is in shock at this appalling act and tragic loss of human life.

In reply to max:

ditto,

just another vain attempt at the 'cutting last word' on sensitive subjects that some people seem to derive so much pleasure from.

may i reiterate everyone elses sensible comments on here tonight by saying how shocked and disgusted i am at today's savage events.

one wonders, in complete bewilderment, at what more there is yet in store for us as a planet.

namaste

m@

In reply to WillyB:

This is my first and last posting but after todays events I have been angered.

I was with horror and contempt of the most extreme degree that I read your comments. How can a man.. and in your case I use the word 'man' with reservation... cheer such brutal case of MASS MURDER. Indeed, your comments not only display your total insensitivity towards other human beings who have died and those who are, as a result, on the threshold of a living terror (survivors and the familys and loved ones of the the victims); but also your obvious lack of inteligence to think before opening your mouth before engaging your brain. As your profile states, and some of your posting display, you seem to enjoy winding people up. Well sir you have wound me up. As much as I abhore and condemn the men behind this, one could argue that they, at best, undertook these acts with with a beliefe of doing the right thing. You sir however, I hold below these men. You sir shouted out with glee at their barbaric act of mutilation, murder and spread of mass suffering. You sir ran to the moral high ground and declared the US and its leaders as deserving of such an act. How can a man (word again used reservedly) take such a stance when he benifits from the same system he is so ready to denounce.
I concur with comment made by the anonymouse gentleman who stated that he is ashamed of your comments. I too am ashamed that you made such comment. And in the same way I declare that I too will be keeping my eyes out for you sir. Pray you NEVER meet me also. Remember you are easy to find!!

PS does the B in Willy B stand for BASHER. because from your comments (these and previous) you don't arf' sound like a 'WILLY BASHER' to me.... and one look at your profile picture kinda' confirms my supspicions also.

In reply to max:

'I, and everyone I know, is in shock at this appalling act and tragic loss of human life.'

Well, I'm not very keen on it myself. I just don't see that expressing my shock, horror, etc. on here is going to help anyone else a lot, and I'm not emotionally constructed in such a way that it's going to help me either.

And the fact that my point was banal doesn't mean it isn't true, nor that this wouldn't be a good time for us all to reflect on the respective interest generated by the deaths of a comparatively small number of westerners in a more interesting or, if you will, shocking, fashion.

In reply to Bob: Amazing how quickly they latched onto Arabs/Islamic fundamentalists as the culprits - they did the same in Oklahoma city and got egg on their faces. Do they ever learn

i had said that i was making a last post before, but i'll have just one more. You have no idea how institutionally xenophobic, misinformed and anti-arab people in the USA are.

I've spent all day listening to people talk about destroying mosques, using the term "sand niggers" left and right; it's horrible. To be honest I'm scared that the politicians will suffer a knee jerk reaction to public opinion and get all gung-ho.

Before I start ranting, I finish up by saying that until it's been a long time since 10 000 people were killed by a deliberate act, and that the finger must not pointed until those responsible are located with certainty; and finally that justice must be served, and not imposed with the sharp end of a cruise missile.

In reply to john cox: John, you are about as fact free as most left wing types I've met. The people who were MURDERED today, were taken in a DELIBERATE act.
People have died of lack of food, since people began, mostly by oversight, rather than any act of deliberate will.
If you are so concerned, how about helping Western over-producers get the food to where it's needed, by getting rid of the interminable civil wars which blight most poor regions, and removing the endemic corruption, that sees aid being sold by armed gangs, so they can buy more arms, to kill more innocents???
Try joining the real world, eh?
And quit with the 'sound-bite' plagiarisms!!

Tim, the VERY annoyed, now.

In reply to Bob:

Some of the trite comments made here just follow the form of the postings made on the Idwal Fatality thread.

I can't believe I share a common interest with some of these people and I cannot believe their callousness and lack of compassion in the postings they have made on both threads.

In reply to TW@: I utterly, and wholeheartedly endorse this view.
Just be ready for ALL the politicians to use an unmissable opportunity for 'We will get them' type speeches'.
They've already started, sadly.
Can we worry about, mourn for, the PEOPLE who are buried in the rubble, before looking for those responsible?
Maybe it will help stop support to all types of terrorist groups, for fear of the light being shone onto it?
I'm out of here, before I lose it altogether...

Tim, the Grey

In reply to Stephen:

Remember that the USA seems almost to require an external bogeyman or state. It used to be the Soviet Union, then it was Qadaffi, then Saddam Hussein, now various islamic groups.

It's just a pity that those who perpetrate crimes such as this fail to realise that such action does not advance the conditions of those who they claim to be helping.

Bob

In reply to john cox:

"And the fact that my point was banal doesn't mean it isn't true"

Correct. The banality of your point does not inherently prove its falsehood.

However your point is still nevertheless false. People are in shock at this atrocity. People do not care about this because it is "more interesting" than famine. People are riveted to the spot with shock John.

I forgot to say yesterday, can we please stop this ridiculous WillyB witch-hunt? He just made an ill-considered, knee-jerk reaction comment without considering the full implication of his words. This does not make him the anti-christ. He just made a mistake. He then attempted to compensate for this by bothering to quote a section from CNN to indicate that in fact he is taking this seriously, and to keep people informed.

People are understandably feeling tense, unnerved and angry about this needless loss of life. Let's not start directing hatred at people in here, like WillyB, or, as Hindu says, automatically directing hatred at any race or country.

In reply to max: Thanks Max, I was thinking the same thing, I could have said something equally as daft, but managed to pull foot out of mouth before clicking 'post reply' So Will, no hard feelings. Its a World tradgedy. My thoughts and sympathy go out to any one affected by this.

http://www.newsonweb.com/msn/fullstory.asp?NEWSID={793B93D0-E8BB-49F5-B209-81ADF81E989C}?CategoryID=NATL

Attack: LeT claims responsibility

Karachi, September 12: Pakistan-based militant outfit, Lashkar-e-Toiba. today claimed responsibility for the wave of terrorist attacks in the United States.


The outfit said its suicide bombers had hijacked jets, which plunged into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon yesterday.

“The attack was carried out by our fidayeen (suicide group) led by commander Abu Samama,” Lashkar spokesman Khalid Saif said in a statement faxed to AFP in this southern Pakistani city.


“The attacks on the World Trade Center and other places were not an act of terrorism but an Islamic duty.”


There was no way to verify the claim independently. US officials have pointed the finger of blame at Afghanistan-based Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden. (AFP)



Published: Wednesday, September 12, 2001

In reply to Bob: My name says it all, really.

In reply to Bob:

My sincere apologies for what i posted yesterday. What i posted was ill-considered and was a reaction to something that i simply could not comprehend.

I condemn what happened yesterday. My reaction came from my opinion that the Western word is irresponsible in it's leadership where we have the social problems suffered in Africa and the East. I believe worldwide reforms are neccessary.

Once again i apologise for any grief or anger i may have caused and hope that i will be able to talk you all again in the future.

In reply to WillyB:
I was more concerned with peoples knee jerk reactions and quick-to-condemn comments to what you said, than your actual words. But fair play for the apology. I just wonder if those that were quick to threaten you will do the same.

In reply to DaveR:

I'm sure the plight i suffer here pails into insignificance.

In reply to WillyB:
Indeed.

In reply to The Horror! The Horror!:

one of the most appropriate posts today, considering the book it comes from (Heart of Darkness)

In reply to WillyB: Willy, you are a bigger man than I thought.
Your apology is accepted. Please accept that I was somewhat upset, as I have, not a friend, but someone I know, in there, somewhere?
I can believe some people don't like what the US is, does, or stands for. I just don't see how flying aeroplanes into civilian buildings justifies any cause?

Tim, the Grey, no longer anon.

P.S. I did NOT write the second one. Just the first.

In reply to Anonymous:

I've got a good idea who did post the 2nd, it's not hard to work out. Anyhow, no hard feelings to all.

In reply to WillyB: It was not I, just so you know, I am not the kind of person to hide behind anonimity.

In reply to AndrewB: let alone be able to spell it

In reply to Tim the Grey:

It's not a question of facts. It's a question of morals.

Tell me again. Why should we mourn more for those killed by a deliberate act than for those who die of starvation?

I'm afraid I can only see a couple of reasons why you're all so shocked by this human tragedy and not by others. I might name for example the death of over 100,000 Iraqi conscripts at the hands of US forces - and ours, of course - in the retreat from Kuwait. Remember those pictures of folk burnt to a cinder in their lorries where they sat by the orders of people the present victims voted for? Thought not.

1. This one just might actually affect your happiness or security, therefore it's important.

2. Those other ones happened to random hankie-heads with funny names, not real people in suits with families.

If anyone has a better reason, post it up.

Frankly, what shocks me is the outpouring of thoughtless emotion, the taking of sides, the obtuse self-interest of most of the posts I see on here. The idea, for example, that at this time, when our political leaders will be taking actions which may conceivably cause the extinguishment of human life on this planet, we shouldn't be discussing politics. The complete failure to consider why the people who do this are driven to do what they do. Etcetera.

In reply to john cox:

This one just might actually affect your happiness or security, therefore it's important.

And you deny that you would feel like this? If somebody murdered your family then I don't think you'd sit back and say "well, I shan't mourn them any more than those people starving to death", would you?

Of course things that are close to us hurt us more. It's personal, it's in our face. That doesn't mean that we have no sympathy for people dying elsewhere - I remember the pictures of that bombed Iraqui convoy well.

In reply to john cox:
I understand that this 'outpouring of thoughless emotion' may seem exaggerated to you in this world where sensless deaths are more a part of everyday life than those of us in the west realise. However, it is not the people who have died that I am mourning for, it is the families who sat up last night waiting for their relatives to come home, The doctors and nurses who worked to save lives, knowing that their partners where on the front line of rescue work and possibly already dead. I am also mourning for all innocent the people who are likely to die as a result of the inevitable US retaliation. I am very afraid that this will push the US further into isolationist policies, and that world politics has changed irrevocably for the worse. Many many 'random hankie heads' will die as a result of what has happened too, either in US bombing raids, or of exploitation in the world recession that is looking likely to follow the destruction of what was for better or worse, the most powerful financial institiution on earth.

Finally, it would be inhuman not to be affected by what you call 'obtuse self interest'. Many of us will know people who were trapped in those buildings, and I know of at least three people who were in the vicinity of the New York attack when it happened. They are safe thankfully.

Please take your moralistic notions somewhere else and save them for when 'the next princess Diana' or Jill Dando dies or something. This is really really bad stuff going on right now and it affects all of us in a very real way.

In reply to john cox:
I don't think anyone is suggesting that one persons life is worth more than another and that they should therefore be mourned 'more'. I think what people object to is using the current tradegy for petty politicising (sp?). To turn it around a little, yes there are other tragedies going on every day but that doesn't make the attack on the WTC any less of one for that. I think the thing that marks this out above some of the others is that this could just be the first act in what could be a much bigger conflict, many more people may be killed before this thing is over.

On a slightly different note can anyone else see the parallels between the religious fundamentalism (if that is what it was)and a lack of perspective shown by the WTC terrorists and the bigotry and hatred show towards young children in Belfast last week. I'm not making a political point here merely voicing my concern that this sort of thing is happening, on a lesser scale, on our own doorstep and is seemingly accepted as an everyday part of British life.

In reply to brendonTendon:

'If somebody murdered your family then I don't think you'd sit back and say "well, I shan't mourn them any more than those people starving to death", would you?'

Obviously not. But these people aren't my family. It's thinking that I ought to mourn them more because they're on my team and the Iraqi conscripts are not that causes wars.

In reply to Lucy:

What you call 'moralistic notions' are never more important than times when emotions are called deeply into play.

Worry about the danger to the world as a result - certainly: perfectly sensible reaction.

Thinking this is an unimaginable human tragedy - dangerously stupid reaction. I bet they can imagine it all too well in Grozny.

In reply to john cox who insulted a lot of people with the following:

"I'm afraid I can only see a couple of reasons why you're all so shocked by this human tragedy and not by others"

John, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever what other things I or other people on this board may find shocking, apart from your opinions on grading crack climbs, so please don't make assumptions like that.

G

In reply to john cox: A similar thought occured to me through the horror last night, namely how many people had died of AIDS in sub-saharan Africa today- would it be as many as in NYC?

BUT I don't think comparing mortality statistics offers us much in understanding these events. I think we are "mourning more" for those in NY because those of us who were in front of a TV at that time watched them die. We mourn more for those who are close to us, and watching it made them seem closer to us than the unseen dying unjustly elsewhere in the world. I think that is just natural and doesn't make the feelings that people have invalid. In that sense I disagree with John.

There is a symbolism to this events that makes it important, and as pointed out above what it leads to could involve suffering to many more.

Taking of sides is not a bad a thing as long as you can justify why you are taking that side. I know why extremist groups see America as their target, I understand the results of oppression - I can see their side of the story. But like John said, this is a question of morality, and whatever the reason - the acts they perpetrated will never be right.

In reply to john cox:
John, once again you have proved that you have absolutely no concept of when to open your mouth and what to say.
For fuck's sake shut up and let people mourne in their own way.
For once will you stop being the argumentative devils advocate. Please.

My deepest sympathy goes to all those directly affcted by yesterdays attack.

In reply to john cox:

Look at this:

http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/summer01/daniels.htm

People DO value different lives differently at different times. We can't help it.

In reply to Tim the Grey:

Tim, I think you've mistaken my intentions. I was responding to what seemed to be a knee-jerk reaction, by suggesting that US policy towards the Middle East has precipitated this particular crisis. I would also suggest that the attitude of the West towards the Arab peoples has given rise to Islamic fundamentalism. (Otherwise, what are we going to believe? That Arabs are born crazy? That Islam is inherently fanatical? I don't think so.) American policy for decades has treated the Middle East as if it was full of 'half-witted desert-dwelling towel-heads' who would never have the capability of fighting back. I'm not condoning any violence but neither am I surprised that the region has finally thrown up a response this terrible.

Just for info, this isn't a knee-jerk reaction either. I've been watching the situation in the Middle and Near East closely for over ten years and I've had longer than a few hours to think this through. That doesn't make my analysis 'right' but we ought to be able to debate it as a political issue as well as expressing our horror and sympathy.

Just to put the tin lid on this, I heard a spokesman from the American Centre for Policy Studies (approximate title) saying "America should adopt the same strategy as Israel, employing all its intelligence and all its force against the perpetrators." When the interviewer asked him "Yes, but who?" he responded, "Everybody". Great.

In reply to John Cox:

I agree with you John.

In reply to john cox:

For what it's worth, I thought your point about deaths from malnutrition was a salutary one, particularly if you have researched it and know it to be accurate. This is a time to take sober stock of the world situation, not to fly off the handle like some of your detractors, and it would be foolish not to recognise that the human misery brought about by unequal development is as great a threat to world stability and equity as the self-evident horror of mass terrorism.

It's a trivial comparison, but the way your refusal to join in the mass hysteria was shouted down and ridiculed reminded me of the treatment in these pages of those who in the early days of F&M dared to suggest that the access restrictions were rather excessive. And they were ultimately proven correct. In these religion-free times there is a definate phenomenon of mass hyseria at such times; witness the disproportionate reaction to the death of some overpriveleged rich bint in car crash in Paris.

Oh no, I've slagged Diana. Now i'm really going to get it.

JAMIE B>

For anybody who's trying to locate people who may have been caught up in the bombings, there are these survivor registries:

http://do.millennium.berkeley.edu/ http://okay.prodigy.net/ http://www.bostoncoop.net:8080/SeptEleven http://www.viexpo.com/dmstest/america.html http://www.ny.com/wtclist.html

Best of luck

In reply to john cox:
No doubt there are parts of the world that are indeed more used to seeing large numbers of people wiped out in one go. But as Toby said, I watched thousands of people die live on telly yesterday and feel totally revolted.

Why on earth is thinking this is an unimaginable human tradgedy dangerously stupid?! No one is saying it is the worst or the only one that has ever happened. For goodness sake John, you may be unmoved by what has happened, but don't reproach the rest of us for what it is in our nature to feel.

In reply to Clare A: "Just to put the tin lid on this, I heard a spokesman from the American Centre for Policy Studies (approximate title) saying "America should adopt the same strategy as Israel, employing all its intelligence and all its force against the perpetrators." When the interviewer asked him "Yes, but who?" he responded, "Everybody". Great"

I saw the same interview and also thought him a fool or knave- he also said that this showed the US should be investing in missile defence (i.e. Star wars), I would have laughed if it had been said at any other time. How could anyone get to that point? I think yesterday showed the patheticness of those arguments. The men who did this were armed with KNIVES! I don't think SDI would have been able to do much to stop that.

I was also troubled by Ehud Barrak's comments (see other thread), which I think showed prejudice or at least a utter lack of understanding at best.

In reply to Jamie B: No you won't, if one thing symbolises what is wrong with this country it was the reaction to that event. It was a pathetic outpouring of empty emotion.

NO, of course not all Moslems are crazy.

But you have to face the fact that there are fundamentalists whose stated aim is the death of non-moslems, and world dominance of islam. They would kill you and me because we don't beleive in their religion.

I would campare that to nazism. So all people who (like me) are used to criticizing western policy from a leftist point of view should think hard. Would they have supported WWII?

Try http://www.markazdawa.org/English/islam/women/index.htm

from the website of the people claiming responsibility.

from http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=149

QUOTE
The Amir said in an interview to the "Herald": "Democracy is among the menaces we inherited from an alien government. It is part of the system we are fighting against. Many of our brothers feel that they can establish an Islamic society by working within the system. They are mistaken. It is not possible to work within a democracy and establish an Islamic system. You just dirty your hands by dealing with it. If God gives us a chance, we will try to bring in the pure concept of an Islamic Caliphate."

The "News" of Pakistan (November 23,1997) reported as follows on the ideology and beliefs of the Markaz Amir as reflected during its annual conference of November, 1997: "The Markaz is trying to take advantage of the growing public discontent with the political system and widespread corruption. Using explicit references to the hardline Taliban in Afghanistan, it is making growing references to ending the democratic system in Pakistan. Prof.Saeed calls for a jihad to turn Pakistan into a pure Islamic state.

" He rejects democracy saying that "the notion of the sovereignty of the people is anti-Islamic. Only Allah is sovereign." The whole venue of the congregation was full of signboards with the slogan "Jamhooriat ka jawab, grenade and blast (the answer to democracy, grenade and blast)". Saeed was categorical in saying that his organisation had no immediate designs in Pakistan, even though the present system in Pakistan was not Islamic.

"He stated: "In fact, there is no Islamic government in the world. Not even in Saudi Arabia, where the system is closer to Islamic teaching, but still not fully Islamic." He expressed his happiness over the success of the Taliban in Afghanistan.

"He said his organisation’s main interest in Pakistan was to pick people and train them to wage jihad in countries where an unislamic government was in power."

The paper quoted him as saying as follows: "God has ordained every Muslim to fight until His rule is established. We have no option but to follow God’s order
ENDQUOTE

In reply to john cox: I have for a long time thought you to be the most insensitive and arrogant poster on this board. The fact that you are in the legal profession is hardly surprising. To use a tragedy like this to try and win an argument for the sake of winning an argument merely makes you look even worse than you are already portraying yourself John. The only person who is wholeheartedly agreeing with you is an anonymous poster who just says “I agree with you John”, without citing an argument as to why he agrees. Could easily be you in fact posting anonymously.

We all know that America has committed atrocities, that people all over the world are dying of malnutrition, war and famine.

However something happened yesterday that has not happened in the recent history of the world. Tens of thousands of people were killed instantly, not in the middle of a war, (which doesn’t make the deaths of people less awful, merely more prepared for), but at the start of a normal working day. I repeat, people are in shock at something that is like a disaster movie coming to life.

People who read these boards John, people who have relatives and friends over there, people who were possibly there at the time, are going to be hurt by your facetious and heartless jeering.

Maybe it is time you kept your opinions to yourself and your abrasive argumentative style for work.

In reply to Jamie B:
I agree with your point about Diana, having been harangued on a glacier the day after by a frenchman who said he himself was "non sori" for her, despite my protestations about all the fuss.

However, the F&M restrictions one? It's a bit like the Y2K problem. Who is to say things wouldn't have been worse if precautions hadn't been taken? We've still got terrible goings on here with ALL of the hefted flocks near Orton destroyed last weekend. OK some were definitely not justified, but the cautious approach in general perhaps was.

After all the Y2K work was done some idiots said "Look, there wasn't any problem after all!", ignoring the fact that people had been correcting software for more 4+ years before...

In reply to graham:

Graham, you said this was the most shocking thing that had happened in your lifetime. I'm inferring from that that you found it more shocking than what most people in the Middle East would consider the deliberate murder of over ten times as many people by US forces in 1990.

For what it's worth, so did I. I examined why I felt like that, and came up, roughly, with the two reasons I quoted above. Not pretty, but I'm guessing pretty typical.

It seems to me that the best thing any of us could do at this time is consider why this looks so different in Palestine, Africa, etc. from what it looks like here, and what that tells us about ourselves and the human condition. I'm not going to apologise for that view.

In reply to everyone: My thoughts go out to all concerned, in whatever way. We'd do well to remember that ultimately, were all the same colour on the inside.

In reply to john cox:
john,
perhaps we all do care about the other human tragedies you mention, or don't you give us credit for that?

Do take into account that maybe we already know about them and perhaps care about them but aren't "shocked" in the instant present because we have already become used to the unhappy knowledge.

We're reacting here to sudden NEWS of a desperately sad nature. I woke at 3am this morning trying to put myself in the place of the parents with lost children, children with lost parents, lost loved ones and friends.

I did the same in the appalling aftermath of Kolwezi, Bhopal, Piper Alpha and many many more disasters.

But this one is a big one and shows the need for the big nations to have a care in their relationships with the poorer and weaker states and minorities

In reply to john cox: John, is war deliberate murder? I don't know...

The people on the Basra Road were soldiers, conscripts predominantly but soldiers never the less. Perhaps that is why it seems less shocking.

Also remember that one commander put a stop to the A10 and helicopter attacks on the Basra Road column after hearing the pilots describe it as a "turkey shoot". That General was quoted as saying "that isn't warfare, that's slaughter". Lets hope (as he is now) Secretary of State Colin Powell hasn't lost the humanity he showed then.

In reply to Jamie B: Although i totally agree with your perception about the ludicrous response to a fatal rta in paris, I think the comparison with yesterday is at best doubtful.

Despite feeling totally disassocaited from the whole evet [eve though my aunt lives 15 mins walk away] I can't help wondering about two things,

One, am I alone in finding the whole media interest / attitude a little macarbe and perverse [e.g. filiming people falling to their death]?

Two, is this the same city that for decades supported the provisional IRA in more ways than one and the same country that has been exporting murder and torture as foreign policy for so long? This is not in one way meant to justify, excuse, condone or devaule the enormity of what happened merely to question the nature of the media response.

In reply to john cox:

I did say exactly that, as I did indeed find it shocking, and am still in a state of some shock, without wishing to sound melodramatic, there's no need to rush round and force feed me sweet tea.

I do not however feel hysterical, nor do I think that the people I know and meet to be in a state of hysteria. Someone else has broken the ice with this taboo, so I'll add, that the nations reaction to Diana's death was to my mind mass hysteria, as opposed to shock, and quite frankly the most embarrassing episode in British Social or Cultural History that I can remember, or am aware of.

The only part of your post which I took exception to was your assumption as to how I and others feel about other shocking events which have happened the world over.

I am as aware as most people how the world works/is, and have similar views to those you put forward about the other issues you mention, and my own views as to how recent and ancient history has led us to be here now.

Regardless, yesterday was still to me simply the most shocking event I have ever known.

G

In reply to Sloper: "is this the same city that for decades supported the provisional IRA in more ways than one"

Do you mean the city authorities? If not, don't make silly statements. That is up there with blaming "muslims" for the attack.

In reply to TobyA:

You wouldn't be suggesting that Tom is prone to wild sweeping statements based on ridiculous predjudice would you Toby?

G

In reply to TobyA:
I just wondered how many muslims were killed in the attack. Quite a few, I'd expect. Shows the futility of conflict.

I think I have a greater understanding now of how people felt when they first saw atomic bombs used in action. (Ignoring the "saved many allied lives" line)

In reply to Lucy:

My only point was that it isn't unimaginable and that worse things, in human terms, happen every day all over the world. I'm not unmoved at all, but the more I think about it, the less creditable I think it is that I find this more moving than those events I skip past in the paper to get to the sports pages, and the more I think that that attitude is why we have wars.

I wish you were right that no-one is saying this is the worst human tragedy ever (or at any rate the most evil act ever, equally stupid and dangerous). May I refer you to the Daily Mail's coverage? And that's even before you consider the National Enquirer's view.

Anyone remember those pictures of the smart bombs going in at windows from the Kuwait war? We thought those were great, didn't we? I know I did.

And Max, I never post anonymously. You should know that no-one as - what did you call me? - ah yes, arrogant and opinionated, as me could bear to miss the opportunity to sign my work.

In reply to graham:

>The only part of your post which I took exception to was your assumption as to how I and others feel about other shocking events which have happened the world over.<

Well, it wasn't an assumption, was it, because you've told us all what you felt?

Indonesia has ethnically cleansed more people in East Timor since I've been on this board than died yesterday. I've never heard one person on here expressing their shock about that. I'm assuming from that fact that if people are equally shocked by events in ET, they hide it well. I don't think that's unreasonable.

In reply to john cox: The above posters are right in their replies. Notwith standing the people killed in wars or by famines, which are attributable to government's actions or to those of multinational corporate greed, you cannot say that this event isn't outstanding in its significance and the sheer brutality of it. This is the action of an individual, or a very small nucleus of people, who have DELIBERATELY and with malice and extreme prejudice, planned the deaths of thousands of people; people with no connection to them and who have done them no particular injustice, simply to make a political point. It cannot be compared to the political and economic expediency which leads to deaths via famines, or to the genocides of the recent past, which were largely the result of openly declared wars. I would include there the Gulf War which, whatever the morality of it and the motivations for it, was a declared war between the armed forces of two nations. To say that the events of yesterday are relatively minor in comparison is to negate the blind, unreasoned, cold brutality of an action which was not part of a war, and which was not the result of a callous economic system. This was murder in the sense of the criminal definition of the term: Planned and executed, without declaration of war or of intent; without WARNING.
You come over as callous and cynical. Too cynical. Learn some humanity and humility, and realise that this act is a direct threat to us all, and a far more direct and immediate one than the perils of globalisation or superpower monopoly.

In reply to TobyA: perhaps city is not the most accurate phrase. howeveer if one were to look at the prevelance of either atcive support or passive sympathy and support and the tacit 'harbouring' of those supporters / sympathiser's perhpas you'll see what i mean.

perhpas if you read the thread it would help, I'll leave silly semantic arguments for a day when I'm not so busy, the post was about the media response by the way.

In reply to max:

Ooops! That wasn't John defending himself, it was me. I was in a mega rush, hence the short and vague message, and my forgetting to put my e-mail address.

I always hate it when someone doesn't put their justification for their view, so I apologise for that. But I just wanted to stick something up to show a bit of support for John's sensible comments.

From experience (I have been using Rocktalk since it was first set up), I have noticed how easy it is for a particular mindset to prevail, and for certain people to set themselves up as arbiter's of the thread, issuing sanctimonious dressing downs to those who don't tow the line, comfortable in the knowledge that the majority share their outlook. This happened to WillyB earlier - he made a mistake, yes. Physical violence was threatened - that displays ridiculous shortage of empathy (everyone makes mistakes; do you really think that he really believed what he wrote?) Well done boys for sorting that out.

Now I can see the same "Witch hunts" focussing on John Cox. John made some very salient points, that may not have fit in with the "party line" of expressing deepest regret at the situation, but nontheless were valid. It is not brave to accuse John of being a monster for not feeling the same as everone else. It IS brave to tolerate his views despite the fact that they conflict with your own, rather than impose your way of thinking on him - that is fundamentalism. the results of that are all too apparent.

Please read "The Crucible" by Arthur Miller, it will help you to understand.

In reply to john cox: Indonesia and East Timor eh? That is a conflict which is ethnically driven; a derivation of racial and tribal hatred. The events yesterday stem from the fact that the perpetrators, assuming they are the Islamic extremists we all think they are, see the US as the major obstacle standing in the way of their desire to spread their warped and malformed version of Islam forcibly across the world.

Much as there is much to dislike about the US and some of its policies and the political influence of its multinationals, it is perhaps the only thing preventing the spread of Islamic fascism, not only within the Islamic world, but further afield too.
The US is the only country with a big enough stick, let's face it, to breed caution into the likes of Osama Bin Laden.
My only fear is that now there will be a backlash of unprecedented fury against all muslims, not just the Islamic fascists, which will merely drive even more followers across to the extremist camp. That could well lead to WW3. Even now, there are probably queues of brainwashed young men wanting to carry out similar atrocities in the name of God. There always are, and that's as old as the hills.

In reply to john cox:
I think that it is not reasonable at all. You speak of things we already know about. The current tragedy occurred yesterday. The world reeled (in case you don't remember) over the Sabra and Shateela camps in the 70s (or was it 80s) when the israeli sponsored militia ran amok killing thousands of arab refugees. We were shocked, but it isn't the current shock.

In reply to john cox:

I don't get that last one at all.

G

In reply to Bob: There seems to be something in our nature that causes us to attack each other, when faced with something we cannot comprehend. We are doing it here. Is that what has got us to the point where monday's events happened. Not one person who died on monday deserved to, no matter what their beliefs may have been. Maybe something good could come from this, it would have to be something pretty bloody amazing, to honour the memories of all those who died. That is the thought that I will carry. The need for revenge is empty, the people responsible are already dead.

In reply to Neil: I wish to distance myself from any so-called "witch-hunt". I have no opinion on Mr Cox himself, but I merely dispute what he says. I think his comparisons are spurious. It's like saying a hurricane is worse than a tornado.

In reply to Neil:
I think some of this witchhunt is created by the site. There are lots of replies by people to provocative john, which aren't necessarily people joining in. It just looks like that because that's the way they are presented. people read a thread, reply to something and then it looks as if they are all "joining the gang". In reality, lots of individual replies, possibly, but not necessarily, connected to one another.

In reply to Graham:

Ahh yes, now I do.

But you didn't say:

"I'm afraid I can only see a couple of reasons why you're all so shocked by this human tragedy and not **equally** by others. "

Did you.

Anyway, go and argue with some of the other hotheads as I'm not actually disagreeing with you.

G

I'm just getting up over here it's still mad; headlines today:

NY Times: US Attacked
US Today: Act of War

Anyways, WillyB a man indeed, glad you made the effort posting today, many would have snuck off quiety.

In reply to Neil: "This happened to WillyB earlier" "Well done boys for sorting that out"

With respect Niel, I was in fact the first person to name WillyB's treatment as a witch hunt and call for common sense to prevail.

I don't agree with witch hunts no matter who is the victim, and John Cox is certainly no victim. He posts deliberately inflammatory and insulting material. If nearly everyone is in agreement in stating, seperately, that they disagree with his views, it does not make him the victim of a witch hunt.

In reply to Neil:
I wouldn't want John Cox to feel that he is the subject of a witch hunt. I was however offended by two things that were implied by his comments:

Firstly, that by being upset by yesterdays events, we don't care enough about other world events, and secondly, that it isn't that big a tradgedy really.

John, you don't actually know who we are. For all you know, I could be a NI reading political activist, who gave 10% of her inheritence to an orphanage in Cape Town, and who has spent many months at Greenham common in the 80s.

I can't actually be bothered to argue anymore about this.
This argument has got nothing to do with what is actually going on in the world right now and is a waste of your energy and mine!

In reply to Sloper: When words are committed to the net like this, we must consider them first and how they might sound to others, that is all I meant. It seemed like you were condemning a city of 10 million, the majority of which will probably have never heard of the IRA, for the activities of a tiny minority of only one of the communities there, in this case the Irish-Americans. The activities of NORAID and their ilk have nothing to do with what happened yesterday. It is not semantics to ask people not to post sweeping generalisations.

In reply to BrianT:

I just think we ought to recognise that we find this event so shocking not because it causes a particularly large amount of suffering or because it is particularly evil. Compared to any number of events we could all name, it doesn't and it isn't, something you seem to recognise when you say it's silly to say a hurricane is worse than a tornado, but not when you say this is MURDER and genocides aren't because there's a declaraion of war involved (really? Rwanda?). We find it shocking because (i) it threatens our own security, and (ii) we can see this on TV and those other things were all a long way away.

Personally, I don't think one can come up with a sensible human response to it until one recognises those facts. Call it callous and cynical if you like, or a clear-eyed contemplation of reality if you prefer. I don't think name-calling's going to help.

In reply to john cox:
john,
give us a list of all the thousands of really horrible things that have happened in the last 30 years and we can each give our opinions on all of them..

But I thought this thread was about yesterday...
anyway, I've said all I can say on this terrible subject. I hope, but dont expect, that some good comes of it.
words now fail me.

In reply to john cox: I do, whether you agree or not, draw a distinction between the killing of someone "in cold blood" as it were, and something which, no matter how brutal or inhumane it may be, happens within the heat and madness of a war. The line is often blurred, vis-a-vis the torture and execution of civilians in the Balkan conflicts, but the remote and deliberate planning ahead of the deaths of civilians, as has just happened, is far nearer, imho, to the crimes of the likes of Peter Sutcliffe than it is to the collective madness that permits people to commit genocide within a war footing. When say "permit" I mean as in justifying it to themselves, not in granting licence.
And I wasn't name-calling.

In reply to TobyA: City i think can bear a range of meanings, as i said perhaps not the best phrase, but the point was not along the lines of sowing the wind etc' rather to examine the media response.

I think it illuminating to consider the second clause of your firast sentence. That your words can be construed in a number of ways says as much about language and perception as it does your critque of my post.

I do not have the time or inclination to compose a legalistic treatise that can only be properly interpreted in one way. The point was, is the media response absolutely perfect, totally fkd or something inbetween.

In reply to Sloper:

I agree that the media response was a bit much, I reached saturation point within an hour then watched normal TV. Checked 4 updates b4 going to bed though to find out if bombs in Afghanistan were US or not.

I think that when somebody attacks the US or financial capitol of the world (Whichever their chosen target) there are immediate thoughts of military retaliation. Everybody is anxious as many people fear it is the kind of act that could potentially start WW3, though i think this is highly unlikely.

The media have drained this to it's limit and is quite sickening, and at times i felt disgusted with myself, like a voyeuristic vulture. Don't forget that in this time where the press are reporting about fundamentalism, anti-capitalist march violence and illegal immigrants, any major event that challenges the Status Quo is bound to be overemphasised.

In reply to john cox:

I have to say I agree with you entirely, theres a definite air of 'not in our backyard' about many of the comments in detriment to your own, maybe they're not as well informed or thought out. The fact is that the world isn't a particularly nice place everywhere and a step back to look at the bigger picture is most definitely needed before people go sounding off with flipent comments like 'its the biggest tradegy ever'. I also always find it strange (and I'm included in this) that humans always hanker after pictures and news of such events almost like sick voyeurs but I guess its a natural reaction, particularly when people you know maybe involved. Maybe in some way this tradegy will make people around the world realise how futile the death of others in pursuit of a particular gain is. However I'm fairly positive after world war2 and the jewish attrocites came to light that people went around blurting 'this will never happen again' but alas timor is simply one example in a whole cavelcade of events which stem from one basic human downfall, intolerance.

Slope, Can you really compose a legalistic treatise that can only be interpreted in one way? Genious! Isn't arguing about a legalistic treatise that can only be interpreted in one way how you guys make your money?

In reply to AndrewB: No. And thats my point.

In reply to Mutton Cutlass:

There is a a considerable difference between saying that something is 'the biggest tragedy ever' and saying that something 'is the most shocking thing you have known'.

One is rating the event itself in some kind of order of importance, the other relates to the impact it has had upon you.

G

In reply to Graham:

And what exactly do you compare it against to put it in order of 'importance'?

In reply to Mutton Cutlass:

Pork and onion suasages of course.

Other tragic events. WTF do you think.



G

In reply to Graham:

A well balanced argument. But how does anyone compare the importance of a tragic event like this? by how it effects you youreslf? by the number of casualties? or simply by the amount, frequency and type of media coverage?. As Mr Cox has pointed out there are more people killed each day in other not so 'Hot' media areas. And before you say it, no I'm not detracting from the horror, terror or waste of human life of yesterdays disaster, I'm simply pondering why this effects us more than another disaster in far of lands. If you want to get hot, abusive and raise your blood pressure, go ahead, I'm not.

In reply to Mutton Cutlass:
reminds me of supposed headlines in the Press & Journal (Aberdeen & N Scotland daily paper which can be a wee bit parochial at times) which apparently included

"Giant neep found at Turrif" (day WWI was declared)
&
"NE Man lost at sea" (he was on the Titanic)

In reply to Bob:
ok, one thing I find Particularly Distressing about this is the effect it's going to have on the already heavily oppressed Palestinian people, plus the general hotting up of unpleasantness it's going to bring.
Who decided to bring in some sort of Melancholic-Calculus anyway?

In reply to Mutton Cutlass who wrote: "If you want to get hot, abusive and raise your blood pressure, go ahead, I'm not."

Is someone else posting stuff under my name?

G

In reply to WillyB:

'I 've got a good idea who posted the 2nd, it's not hard to work out.' And apparently, some folk on this thread won't find it hard to find you either..'

Anonymous is of course - wrong, I post the 1st and the 2 anonymous posting -in error, because normally, my sign-in name and email address are already installed when I make a comment; installed for me.

At 14.59h on Tuesday the 11 of September, postings were hitting this thread - thick and fast. I certainly have never seen anything like it before.

Unlike certain people who enter the Rockfax site, I do not enter deliberately;anonymously.

You have a got a good idea who posted the 2nd... Apparently, a few people have you tagged - also.

Dennis M.

In reply to Dennis:

Does that mean i should go into hiding....

In reply to WillyB: Dennis is becoming a menace, I'm cool with you as is everyone else by the sound of it.

In reply to WillyB: and ALL

Sir you do not know who I am. However, I must agree with all who have stated that we are all giving off knee jerk reactions. Just for the record I commend your oppology. I too was guilty of knee jerk reaction, for that I too oppologise. I will state that I do not see the plight of starving inocents as a lesser issue in terms of human tragedy. I have given support, both in finances and personal assistance to voulentary organisations that attempt to ease the suffering of both starving, underpriviliged and political prisoners. Indeed, the point made about the Kuwaity war was valid and I concur that it was a tragedy. However, the Kuwait War did not claim the lives of anything up to 10 civilians. Any loss of human life is a tragedy. My objection to Willy B (and others) is using such tragedy to blurt out political catch phrases and make missinformed outbursts to all and sundry. I have cried for many people who have suffered. Not only for the US victims, but for many who have suffered in many other tragedies. I truly find it distasteful that people take oportunities like this to run their opinions up a political flagpole. We should be mourning for ALL who suffer at the hands of others and pull together to help alleviate suffering.

Q: How many of you have ever actualy taken time out to truly help, in what ever way, to try to acheive this.

On that point I will sign of. Again Willy B I oppologise to you. If my words implied a physical threat I oppologise for that also. I should have made it clear I would have given you a peice of my mind, but alas my feelings where misplaced.

PS

Typo error. Read 10 civilians as 10,000+ civilians