UKC

Whilst reading all the comments on the other threads about the passing of the legendary Joe Brown, I thought it would be good to have a place to chat about Joe's routes, share stories from climbing those routes and maybe even venture to suggest a favourite.

Although I have a feeling there maybe an overwhelming bias towards Cenotaph Corner!

Cemetery Gates.

The openness, exposure and relative ease for the amazing positions make this an all time favourite of mine. 

The Corner, although technically harder and a brilliant line is unbalanced and enclosed, lacking the flow and exposure.

A little story about the Gates:

Many years ago (early 90's) I was leading the first pitch. About 50 ft above me, the second of  another party was just approaching the crux. I quickly came within 10 ft of the second who was still struggling to make any progress. I placed a wire, pulled my cigs out of my t-shirt and had a smoke whilst holding on to a good hold (no resting on the wire, bad form) and waited for the party above to finish the pitch. After the smoke I stupidly stashed the cigs into the crack and set off as the route was now clear. 

Getting to the belay I set up as usual, reached into my t-shirt and remembered I'd left them in the crack! Fortunately my second saw them on the way past and picked them up for me!

When he arrived we swapped gear and I could enjoy another smoke as he led through.

Halycon days indeed.

Andy F

I have to choose 3 climbs: The Grooves (E1 5b), Mousetrap (E2 5a), and +1 for Cemetery Gates (E1 5b).

There's a good Brown quotation about Right Eliminate (E3 5c) at Curbar in the BMC obituary (see the link below): "I found stuff like that quite straightforward,’ he replied. ‘Just over the roof I stopped and jammed my knee in so I could roll a fag."

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/legendary-climber-joe-brown-dies

Two quotations about Brown:

1. Also from the BMC obituary - Pete Crew said "I worship Joe,’ Crew told him. ‘He’s the best climber in the world."

2.  A quotation with the UKC Right Eliminate description - "If you want to know the measure of the Master, do Great Slab (E3 5b) and Right Eliminate (E3 5c) in a day in a pair of Wooly's pumps".

Cemetery Gates (E1 5b), Vector (E2 5c), Great Slab (E3 5b) (the latter particularly astonishing, in plimsolls and with no protection.)

I am not sure about a favourite route because there are so many good ones around to choose from.

Though one of my favourite guidebook photos is in the CC guide to Llanberis.

It's of a climber on Cenotaph Corner, at first glance it looks like a fairly standard photo looking down it from just above the crux with a climber nearing it. Then on a closer look you can see that the climber has just parted company from the rock and the corners slippery crux!

Vector for me

There are so many to chose from, although I'm going to have to go for Todys Wall, because Froggatt is my home crag and it just feels comfortable and joyful.  Even climbed it on my wedding day!

My memory says Jim perrin has some slides of the first ascent of vector. Somebody has I have seen them

Good article I seem to recall in a recent CC Journal about the FA of Vector.

My personal choice of what 3 are the best Joe Brown climbs are The Grooves, Vector and Cemetery Gates, so good that I have repeated all!

Vember

Whenever I've done a Joe Brown route, I know it's going to be great, but also tough (I haven't done any of his harder ones). 

Possibly The Fang is the one that sticks on my mind as being memorable, maybe not favourite. Setting off on the 2nd pitch when HVS was probably my limit was certainly interesting. I think it may have even rained on the slab...

Does anyone know of a full list of his routes? There's a few ticklists on here, but I very much doubt they have all of them. Would love to know how many I've done for sure, 7 on current count.

Would anyone have a list of all his recorded routes? Would be nice just to look at it and marvel. 

This is from the bottom of his wiki page: 

https://web.archive.org/web/20120511235426/http://www.joe-brown.com/first-ascents/index.php

Not definitive though.

A search function by first ascensionist would be handy in the log books. I'd quite like to see Pat Littlejohn's as well

Freddie's Finale! The HVS that really puts you in your place.

I've not done many, but I thought Laugh Not (HVS 5b) was brilliant - a really fun pitch. If we ever get out of lockdown, I look forward to trying others.

For reasons I don't really understand, I've never done the Gates.  Definitely one to put on my post-viral apocalypse rehabilitation plan.

In terms of the one I've done most often, that's definitely Joe's Arete at the Roaches.  For years I couldn't get near the long final move, but then I came back to it and discovered the short man's version (climbing it all on the left side of the arete) and suddenly it seemed easy.  It was a great example to me of how rethinking your approach can unlock the previously impossible.  Brown was small too, I wonder how he originally did it (although I don't doubt that, with his technical wizardry, he could do it the other way).

Of the real routes, I guess it would have to be the Grooves on Cyrn Las for length, line, position, and consistently excellent climbing. 

Vector of the ones I've done.

Never did Cenotaph Corner because, impressive line though it is, I never thought the actual climbing looked particularly attractive.

Or Joe's Arete at the Roaches - an elegant little gem

With Joe's Arete at the Roaches, I'm not a shortie so did it the "normal" way. However, I found the trick was to not look up for the top but to keep looking down. The slight change in balance from looking up (moves your shoulders/body away from the rock) was enough to stop me staying on when reaching for the top. And it's such a defined top that you don't need to see it anyway.

I remember enjoying Llithrig for its deviousness! 

So many good ones, but Shrike (E2 5c)stood out for me.

Another vote for cemetery gates. I remember walking up to do flying buttress as one of my first climbs on a cold day, there was a party on the gates and I just thought wow! what a route. Going back years later and leading the gates on a summers day and reaching the belay ledge was an amazing feeling. Someone took a huge fall off trip grip on the other wall just as I reached the ledge, luckily they stopped 10ft from the ground. 

Could never understand why it was not included in Hard Rock, seemed such an obvious choice

The grit lines are all good, but no single grit route could be a favourite for me.

It's got to be Shrike for me, with Mousetrap a close second.

All the Tremadog lines are awesome, but there's so many I've not done, especially his others at Cloggy and Gogarth.

The two big pitches of The Mostest (E2 5c) are in my opinion superb (let's ignore the chossy first pitch). Climbing, and positions, and the stance between the 2 pitches are really great IMO, I've hardly ever enjoyed a route more

I think I ended up doing something similar (6'2"). I was too bunched up to do it static. I remember a couple of shorter (and much better) climbers doing it on the left hand side, but I couldn't get near it that way.

Difficult question but for me it had to be a big climb on a big cliff with a big feel so came down to Cloggy or Gogarth. Since I'm forced to make a choice - Shrike.

Used to be easier when it had a tree stump halfway up. Feels far more sustained now.

Noah's Warning on the Cromlech is probably the hardest of Joe's climbs that I've done. Even the 'easier' ones require some commitment.

Cemetery Gates is still on my bucket list.

He practically created Tremadog single handedly, digging improbable masterpieces out of what must have looked like a scruffy looking crag before he set to work ... Vector, obviously, but Grasper … the Slips … Nimbus … and Tensor, which used to be my favourite E1 when you were expected/allowed to use a peg over the roof!

White Tower Original Route (HVS 5a)

Not only the best Joe Brown route, i think the best route ive ever done

Cemetery Gates (E1 5b)

my first proper e1, with two great climbing buddies. also a remember trying Laugh Not (HVS 5b), and taking my first trad falls on it, then having a right battle to second my friend on it the same day. would like to go back and do it clean. 

I'm glad you mentioned the Slips. I haven't done First Slip (but my brother has and found it pretty, IIRC); but Leg Slip (E1 5b) is brilliant.

I was thinking exactly the same

Tensor is just brilliant, forgot that it's Brown route.

Mousetrap (E2 5a)

The Sind (E3 5b)

The Rat Race (E3 5c)

For the memories, Tizgut Crack (E1 5b) in the Anti-Atlas. A deserted gorge, a classic Joe Brown crackline splitting the buttress, steepening and widening as it goes. Topping out into the dusk, with the sounds of the call to prayer echoing up the valley, was an experience to remember.

I only seconded Great Slab (E3 5b), because I would never have had the guts to lead it. I found it quite challenging even to second, because the diagonal rope can't help you - it has to be quite slack. I can scarcely think of another pitch I've done that's so pure, so relentless at its standard, so continually technically interesting and on such perfect rock (not polished, because it'll never be a trade route). I can remember talking to some quite famous old climber in the Oread MC (name escapes me now, senior moment) who was at Froggatt the day Joe did it, and he described how Joe rather suddenly went up to it and just set off with complete confidence.

meant 'pretty hard'

Cenotaph, Vector and The Rasp. Not done Shrike which I suspect would be in top 3 if I had. The Gates was mega as well. 

No one going for the Black Cleft? It isn't my favourite but it sums up Brown's (and Whillans') ability. When I did it it was pretty dry - I wouldn't like to have tried it when it was properly wet with 1950's gear.

There are too many Brown routes to pick one favourite but Vector, Mousetrap, Shrike and the Gates were all memorable for different reasons.

The truth is we can't do a 'top three' with Joe, because there are just so many masterpieces. Even a top ten would be difficult. Top 20, perhaps.

Spiders Web at Gogarth for me, its just so ridiculous and exposed. When I did it "Don't worry be happy" had been on the radio in the car driving out and I remember singing it to myself when lowering down to the roof and swinging round the lip. Outrageous route and truly ahead of its time. There is a picture of the route here taken for rock climbers in action in snowdonia: http://footlesscrow.blogspot.com/2010/02/rock-climbers-in-action-in-snowdon...

So many good routes, so hard to choose. But perhaps my favorites:

The Pass: The Gates and The Corner

Cloggy: Mostest, Shrike, Cloggy Corner

Tremadoc: Leg Slip, First Slip, Hardd, Vector, The Wasp, Grasper, Fang, Pellagra...

Lots on grit and in The Lakes

So many good days - Thanks Joe!

Is there a list of his routes in the various ones on UKC - I have only found a 3* grit list.

Crack and slab

Such a good joke, you had to tell it twice.

Fissure Brown - confounded French guides.

The Neb - cramped escaping the overhang when you are a 6 footer 

The Grooves 

Remember him at the Padarn holding court at the dartboard. He was The Man and we all held him in awe.

Prob Mousetrap for me with Cenotaph a close 2nd. Plenty more to do for me. 

One of things that most impresses me about Joe is Opening Gambit in the Quarries, not that I have or will do the route. It says a lot about the man that for his first foray climbing in the quarries when they have only just closed he heads to Twyll Mayr the biggest hole in the ground taking on the biggest challenge from the off.

Although maybe not one of his best known routes, there is still this little 'testpiece' to be found nestling at Burbage South!  My daughter was proud to have soloed a joe Brown route aged 10.

Ribbed Corner (D)

Browns Eliminate and Right unconquerable for me..Both went easily but the build up in my head was memorable for both. Separated by about 15 years ...l really sad and welled up about hearing the news. 

Slightly off topic but it seems silly to start a new thread specifically - can anybody point me towards a full list of Joe’s Lakes FAs? There are a couple in White Ghyll but what else is there?

Bow Wall

The Thorn (HVS 5a) . One of the rare non-grit routes of Brown’s in the Peak. And the second pitch is incredible.

The vast majority of Joe’s routes that I’ve done have been in the Peak, with the exception of the Gates (and perhaps laugh not up in Langdale, which is also superb).

I was lucky enough to do it on a crisp, bluebird November afternoon, with the receding sun chasing us up the wall. Such a great position, flying high over the pass, climbing well, everything flowing.

Speaking to my grandfather this morning, I managed to eke out a tale of Joe Brown, a lifelong hero of his. Having met Joe in passing a few times on MR callouts, my grandfather was chatting to him in his shop probably 50 odd years ago, I guess, when a very bored joe asked if he fancied a route. They ended up at the cromlech on the gates, which the Master proceeded to drag him up. I could practically hear the smile on his face as he recounted this over the phone.

So thanks, Joe. Let the legend live on.

It would be hard to say which of Joe's route were the best because of so many.

Please someone do the job of research and post a list.

I think from my memory there were different stages and hence gear.

My choices of his hardest at the time and maybe now (without cams)

Gritstone.  Curbar right eliminate, Elder crack. Great slab (dangerous) 

Wales earlier years. Mostest, Woubits, The Thing

Later years, Vector, Hardd, Dinosaur, 

I urge the modern generation to don the same gear and protection. Then you will understand.

Best wishes to his family.

ive done all his routes in the roaches area and cant pick a fav,they are all very good and you cant help but think how good he was to do them with the gear available at the time.

I knew Tizgut crack would get a mention! Brill route and definitely memorable. I love the guidebook description too.

Does anyone know when Brown was putting up these routes in the anti atlas? I guess he would have been in his mid 70's, and still discovering classics!

Always moaning. Relax chill. Try to have a nice day.

I've not heard that before - good to know. There's a stubby piton near the very top - I like to imagine Joe used it for a belay on the first ascent, though I imagine that's wistful thinking. Any idea of its provenance?

Laugh not was my first JB route , 1977 I think. It was also my first HVS lead. Brilliant route

Les Brown and Trevor Jones discovered the trad potential of THe Anti-Atlas in 1991. Joe was among the select band of mates, including Peter Turnbull and of course Claude Davies, that they first took back there so he'd have been in his early 60s at the start of that campaign. We started going there in 2009 and Joe had only just ceased to be part of the team, at which point I guess he'd have been about 77.

It seems common to downplay CC for some reason but having done it after waiting many years for the right time, on an early Autumn Monday with a good friend and no-one else about, it was utterly memorable: thrutchy, pedestrian, then abruptly urgent and technical...and the most obvious line in the country. 

I had the priviledge of climbing with Morty Smith in the early 70's. He lectured at Salford Tech and taught me as part of my apprenticeship day release. He introduced me to Wimberry and all the Rock & Ice routes there. On one  "Blue Lights Crack", I tried to layback it and had to jump off it over that horrible crevasse at the bottom. Morty said "You want to see how Joe did it?"  Facing outwards he fell accross the crevasse backwards and used elbow and foot jams to climb up a few feet. Using his technique it felt easy. I still carry a scar from the pebble that used to grace the Freddie's Finale fist jam.

Fascinating - we just must have lost that imagination and playfulness.

Which leads to another point - how did he think up his route names? So obscure, so pithy, so apt. How could Vector or Llithrig or Mousetrap be named anything else?

Apparently I heard that it was Blue Lights because others that tried it shat blue lights. The start is not the really difficult bit but moving from jamming/chimneying halfway into a layback and I can't recall any gear as such. This was early 70's and no cams.

As for Freddie's Finale, I still have the imprints on my hand to this day!

I also read that Joe had a written list of names ready for his new routes, but such names like Cenotaph Corner already existed but uncliimbed until Joe came along.

I'd give a vote for Valkyrie (HVS 5a) at Froggatt, done it many times over the years. An elegant slightly circuitous solution to to classic problem. Strenuous jamming and ape like traverse then lovely balancy moves to where I always used a knee bar for a no hands rest as you reached the sloping ledge and finishing on a real if small summit. Virtually perfect.

Some stand-out Brown moments for me;

Vertigo on Castle Cidwm. Stuck on the blank, unprotected bridging groove for ages before somehow levitating up to enjoy the incredibly exposed top pitch.

The Fang, stuck again, trying to turn the arête having committed to the freakish traverse from the belay.  Somehow sprawling or falling around the corner to find relief in the final balancy slab.

Concrete Chimney. Although nothing could match the impact of the main pitch, it was weaving through the overhangs, above the Dream traverse where for once, I felt in tune with The Master.

The extraordinary thing about Joe Brown is that my generation of climbers felt it in our bones that we had to climb all his routes that we could get up . I'll go further: if you were a young and aspiring climbing in the late 60's you had to do Cemetary Gates, Cenotaph Corner, and Vector - basically, they were compulsory. I can't think of any other British climber who has left quite that sort of legacy. 

Hadn't thought about it like that but you're absolutely right. It's as if there's a diary somewhere with your name and those routes side by side; you just have to name the day, sooner or later you know you will be stood at the bottom, looking up in trepidation.

I wouldn't necessarily extend to best route I've ever done, but the route is stunningly good. That little overhang on pitch one where you get forced out of the corner left me panting for a few minutes above it! It's almost definitely the best Joe Brown route I've done and was the highlight of an excellent trip to the area for me.

I couldn’t see it here so here’s a link to Don Whillans and Joe Brown climbing Cemetery Gates. Maybe they’re having a good chat about old times again. 
youtube.com/watch?v=-m_P_RzrQu4& 

That’s a very good point and perfectly true.

.......and I don’t think anyone has mentioned Octo or Barbarian. Standing below those if you did not know you were in for a spot of hard graft you knew at the top! Almost Whillanesque 😊

I didn't do Octo, but Barbarian was awesomely good. I'd forgotten it was another of Joe's. The main pitch was one of the very best of its standard I've ever done (Given HVS when I did it. Completely absurd). Fantastically sustained, yet technically varied. The crux so good that it's almost in a class of its own. Then you think it's all over ... my god that final crack is draining. One of those routes where your arms are so shot when you get to the top that you have trouble taking in the ropes ... 

Amazing just how few photos there are of this climb. Here's one, but it doesn't show all the interesting multiple crux moves below that, to the right, traversing under that roof and above another one. I recall laybacking up that very bald arete that his left hand is on. Just amazing climbing. 

http://gethigh.co.uk/media/big_pics/barbarian2_bigv.jpg

Gordon, you were polite enough not to mention that you held me falling off Octo!

There won’t be many as he didn’t climb there nearly as much as Wales or the Peak. Laugh Not and Dovedale Groove on Dove Crag and Triermain Eliminate on Castle Rock are the well known ones. I think there's something on an obscure crag near Kentmere (just checked - The Groan, Rainsborrow Crag.)

Gordon, wasn't there a photo of Barbarian on the cover of an early Mountain magazine, possibly even no1!

Indeed. It was actually someone on Mangoletsi, iirc, but the point the climber was at in the picture shares the route with Barbarian.

I've Googled it. Yes, it was the first issue:

https://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/old-climbing-magazines-t59534.html

You really cannot exaggerate the impact of those first issues of Mountain. There had never been anything like them in the climbing world before. The sheer photographic /design brilliance, detailed factual excellence and intense love of climbing from cover to cover. Dear old Ken.

I though I recognised that overhang after all these years! If memory serve me well, Trevor Jones actually made the FA with 10 points of aid , then Joe came along and climbed the entire route free!

You're not wrong. There was Climber and Rambler - the editor sadly topped himself, and no wonder. The  world was changing so fast.  Then there was Rocksport, which was pure anarchic amateur fun. And there was Mountain - just briefly, the world's definitive record of mountaineering. And it looked the part, too.

We were climbing on Pant Ifan when someone took a monster fall off Barbarian, screamed all the way until safely held. My mate, halfway up a nearby route, looked down at me and in a loud voice said 'cool fall of the year award - null points.'

Between the original, old immensely dull 'Climber and Rambler' and 'Mountain', there was Mountain Craft. I think Ken edited about the last issue, until he took it over and completely revamped it as Mountain.

C & R had 'Climbs of Quality' though, which was inspirational, even if 30 years out of date!

About the one good thing in it, I think, with R B Evans' wonderful drawings, iirc.

PS. I was lucky enough to meet R B Evans in old age about 10 years ago when I gave a talk to the Bolton M C, I think.

I need to make a correction to what I said earlier, having looked at the guidebook. Although the caption in Mountain 1 said the picture was of Mangoletsi, only the ropes in the foreground are on the latter. The climber is on Barbarian, obviously escaping up that, having failed on the crux of Mangoletsi. The routes do not share any of the same ground.

https://www.summitpost.org/phpBB3/old-climbing-magazines-t59534.html

When is is said and done Gordon, it's a great photo.  A sign of what was to come. Was it by Ken W?

I did Barbarian and Mangoletsi within a week of each other in 1974. From memory (usual caveat!), back then, they did share some of the same ground. (Descriptions may have changed?) Mangoletsi started to the right of Barbarian and moved into it, which would roughly fit with the guy in the photo. There were various finishes to Barbarian; Mangoletsi went left onto Silly Arete, somewhat lower than the finish I took on Barbarian.

I remember the guidebook stating that, although Mangoletsi was harder than Barbarian, the crux of Mangoletsi was easier than the crux of Barbarian. My climbing partner at the time was foxed by this.

Mick

Didn't we use a peg for aid on Barbarian in those days Mick, but my memory is a bit foggy on this. Then again it was a wet day I faintly recall. It's funny how some climbs you can remember every move, and others are but a faint memory. My ascent was either in '73 or '74.

I seem to remember a series of black and white postcards from the late 60's/early 70's.

All a little vague but fairly sure there was a shot of JB on Tensor wearing his wooly balaclava with a fag jammed in the corner of his mouth. 

No, it was by John Hartley.

My Tremadog guide (Leigh McGinley, 1983) has Mangoletsi climbing a 6a 'roof crack just right of the Barbarian niche.'

Here's a nice photo of Mangoletsi (E3 6a) from a Tom Ripley page:

http://tomripleyclimbing.blogspot.com/2012/05/pant-ifan.html

Edit, scroll down, 3rd photo

That's very helpful. Thanks.

You're very welcome, Gordon, it's a great photo of Mangoletsi (E3 6a) isn't it

I don't remember a peg for aid on Barbarian, then. There was still one on Pincushion, though I think Henry Barber had freed it in '73. Nobody I knew seemed to be too fussed about the odd bit of aid, then. It wasn't considered to be a deal breaker. Maybe a healthier attitude?

Mick

I can't even remember which frigging decade I did Barbarian in! - wasn't that the route where you were 'allowed' to use a peg 'for balance' - so it didn't really count?

IIRC, Joe Brown allowed himself one peg per climb.

Yes, but the key is in the date - 1983. Iirc Mangoletsi got alternative bits circa 1977 (Pete Gomersall and Bonny?)   I didn't do the 6a roof crack in Tom's photo - although, on Barbarian, I went off route and did the big roof crack at top left, which also seemed 6a (just one rattly hex - a size too small - for protection).

In my view, the front cover of Mountain 1 is of Mangoletsi. I think if Ken had got the front cover caption wrong, he'd never have heard the end of it!

Mick

P.S. At the risk of being seriously boring, I've consulted Zippy's 1989 guide. Re Mangoletsi:

The Original Way (E1)

2a  Follow the route to the roof crack, then continue into Barbarian. Belay on the peg runner of Barbarian.

3a A difficult traverse left leads to an arete; finish up this.

That's pretty much what I remember doing. At the time of the Mountain front cover, Barbarian and Mangoletsi had common ground.

Hmm... we're getting perilously close to, 'Stand on the peg without using it for aid.'  This from a then philosophy student (was Logic on the syllabus?)

Mick

I thought it was two - but may well be wrong. Or was it two aid points?  Doing FAs ground up, cleaning as you went, one (or two) wasn't much.

Mick

Obviously a flexible rule as he allowed himself about 10 on Sind at Castle Helen, but it was very loose and dusty I recall.

Or was it one peg per pitch?

Thanks for clearing that up, Mick. Gomersall obviously straightened it out, while the original route had finished up Barbarian. Anyhow, just to repeat: I thought the main pitch of Barbarian was fabulous, with not a peg in sight when I did it. Nice to know that Joe was the first to free it. I must say I'm a bit baffled by the first ascent in 1958 by C T Jones and party. I can understand about two pegs being used, or even three, but ten!!! I can't see how anyone could ever have needed that many. 

When I started caving seriously with the Lancs Caving & Climbing Club in1976 it was with R B Evans (Brian). We often used to meet up at his house before heading up to the Dales. Brian was an excellent caver but it was some time before we learned the fuller picture. One evening while we were all having a cup of tea at his house he pulled out some old photo albums of him and his mates back in the Bronze Age (or so it might as well have been to us kids). I can't recall exactly who featured now but it was a lot of well known names. Allan Austin and Denis Gray I think were among them. I'm not sure if Joe Brown was in there but I do remember saying to Brian that he must be famous! I think Brian was good at whatever he did. He was quite a pioneer climber in his day, a tough caver, canoeist and skier too. Add to those his drawing and guidebook work and you get an idea of his all-round talent. Last time I saw him was a few years ago on a walk over Whitbarrow and he was still going strong and looking pretty much the same as he did back in the 70's!

You've got me wondering now; whatever it was, it wasn't a lot.

Mick

I simply remember him as being a very warm kind of enthusiastic personality, still young for his years.

I suspect that loads of pegs were used on Barbarian and Sind (Sean's comment above) for the same reason: cleaning. Barbarian was probably choked with soil, probably with shards of rock in it. Sind (which I've not done), was probably terrible rock at the time of the FA. Didn't Crew and Brown have bad guts from all the dust and crap?

I'm sure people would start off with the best of intentions, get a peg in for protection, struggle with cleaning and then get forced into sitting on it. If this happened a few times, they'd probably think, "Oh, sod it." And then you'd end up with an aid extravaganza. Given that Brown did so many new routes, up such challenging lines, having recourse to so little aid seems quite staggering. I guess that's something else which set him apart. He really did seem to move in a different realm to the rest of us.

Mick

Something I don't think we ever got was how strong he was: 'I was a bag of muscle in those days'...

But on top of that, his footwork, balance, and mental strength ... As you say, a different realm.

I fell off Barbarian with one foot on the ledge at top of crack above the roof, ripping out all the nuts I’d placed to be held by tat on a peg under the roof. This would be in about 1975. I came to a halt about a foot above the slab upside down. Obviously like everyone else in those days I didn’t have helmet on. I’m sure I was trying as someone tw*t told it would be VS in Yorkshire.

I

I should imagine Rob that with the combined weight of all those pegs there was no way Trevor could ever climb it free however strong might be!

We used to climb with 4 or 5 pegs, and for a while there was a stupid fashion of having your peg hammer dangle and trail below you on a long sling. Which was replaced by the even more stupid fashion of carrying your peg hammer in the back pocket of your tight jeans. What was all that about?!

Agree, remember looking up at the Corner in 1963, thinking one day; neither disappointed! Never finished Vector, had to ab off the top pitch with Smiler in the rain - never went back. But his stuff on the grit - oh joy; and failed on lots!