UKC

Loose bolt or loose hanger

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 bpmclimb 28 Apr 2021

Reports from climbers on problems with gear are much appreciated.

Just a request to make a distinction between a loose hanger and a loose bolt. The former is very common and usually easily rectified; the latter, of course, is something altogether more serious.

Thanks

 climberchristy 28 Apr 2021
In reply to bpmclimb:

A good distinction to make thanks. 

On this issue. I keep meaning to leave a suitable spanner / socket wrench with my sport rack to tighten a loose hanger nut. Can anyone confirm what diameter is most commonly needed for nuts on UK bolt hangers pls? I read on a US website that 9/16 inch (14mm) or half inch (13mm) are most common. Anyone confirm if this is so? 

 Ian Parsons 28 Apr 2021
In reply to climberchristy:

In the UK the normal sizes of parabolts used - ie where a threaded stud protrudes and has a hanger attached with a nut - are 10mm and 12mm; so 13/14mm sounds a bit on the small side for the nut. From memory I think you need 17mm and 19mm, respectively. I'm sure somebody can confirm/correct.

 jimtitt 28 Apr 2021
In reply to climberchristy:

17/19mm

 climberchristy 28 Apr 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

Excellent thanks Jim.

 Sean_J 28 Apr 2021
In reply to bpmclimb:

As general interest, which parts of the UK use 12mm bolts?

In reply to bpmclimb:

Like Jim said above, a 10mm bolt's nut takes a size 17 spanner and a 12mm bolt's nut takes a size 19 spanner

Although I don't like adjustable spanners, they're a good option if you aren't planning on using them much, and you can nip maillons (quick links) closed and other things too. Cavers often carry a small adjustable spanner, knife and whistle because they're useful

In reply to Sean_J:

> As general interest, which parts of the UK use 12mm bolts?


The wealthier parts.

 JLS 28 Apr 2021
In reply to JLS:

There's nothing worse than a cheap spanner. Get one made by someone like facom, gedore, bahco etc instead. A few £s more but won't round off nuts after you've used it a few times.

 AndyRoss 28 Apr 2021
In reply to Sean_J:

Becoming quite common at the lower-off I think (with 10mm bolts on the rest of the route).

In reply to bpmclimb:

I have a nut tool which doubles as a spanner, haven’t used the spanner yet so can’t say how great it is.

https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/torque-nut-tool.html
 

 PaulJepson 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Found the nut tool ones not sturdy enough and not easy to use (the hanger gets in the way). Also you don't generally carry a nut tool on sport, so if you're carrying an extra tool then it may as well be a dedicated one. The nut key ones will get it a bit tighter than finger-tight but nothing like a spanner will do. I have a 17mm/19mm spanner on my sport rack and have used a few times. 

 scott titt 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Sean_J:

Some belays at Cheddar are 19mm

 bpmclimb 30 Apr 2021
In reply to bpmclimb:

One thing I've learned to do when tightening hangers is put a glove on - it's so easy to slip and take the skin off your knuckles

In reply to Kryank:

Makes sense on trad routes with bolted belays. Ermmm.. I can't think of any of those in the UK though

 Ian Parsons 30 Apr 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom:

Cheddar, Avon, a few at Wintour's Leap, Wyndcliffe Quarry. Quite likely in places where you have trad and sport side-by-side.

 kristian 30 Apr 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom:

Upper Pen Trwyn and a load of other places where the landowner forbids access to the crag tops for erosion control and pedestrian safety.

 Dr Toph 30 Apr 2021
In reply to bpmclimb:

Just looking at that long halfords spanner (above) -  its worth remembering that throughbolts have a min/max torque (how tight the bolt should be cranked) which can weaken the bolt if over-done. Each bolt has its own recommended torque, so without knowing the brand in the rock, its best to just nip it up until the hanger is not spinning, dont go crazy with the long-handled wrench.

In reply to climberchristy:

Many nut keys have an appropriate socket. Some even have multiple different sizes for more exotic hangers. 

In reply to Dr Toph:

Same is true of glue ins. Resin anchors have low torque out resistance. 

 jimtitt 01 May 2021
In reply to JohnBson:

It is a requirement that the design of the bolt prevents them from rotating, there is a torque resistance test in the standard and they shear off before they turn.

In reply to JohnBson:

These are design affectations to make the nut key look cool. Good luck trying to torque up a nut satisfactorily with them.

Some more recently developed crags have a crag spanner left hanging from a bolt, great idea. 

In reply to CantClimbTom:

Plenty of mixed bolt/trad routes on Dinorwic slate.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

> These are design affectations to make the nut key look cool. Good luck trying to torque up a nut satisfactorily with them.

> Some more recently developed crags have a crag spanner left hanging from a bolt, great idea. 

Sorted one at dinorwic satisfactorily this way the other day. As said above. Enough torque to stop the hanger spinning, short term fix oc, if it starts to do so again try again. Expansion type. 

 Blanche DuBois 01 May 2021
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Some more recently developed crags have a crag spanner left hanging from a bolt, great idea. 

Is it?  I'd describe that as a really bad idea.

 Rick Graham 01 May 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

> It is a requirement that the design of the bolt prevents them from rotating, there is a torque resistance test in the standard and they shear off before they turn.

If my googling is correct, uiaa 123 , the bolt standard, has a 150 Nm for sixty seconds torque test , no movement allowed.

IMHO and experience, a lot of older style glue ins can be removed with a long bar, turning rather than shearing off, which is what the earlier poster was implying.

I can imagine your bolts requiring far  more torque than 150 Nm to turn or shear off, whichever happens first. 

In reply to Blanche DuBois:

Why? 

Maybe this is a stupid question... here goes... but why isn't it widespread to use nylock nuts for mechanical bolts. I understand that loosening cann be at the wedge/rock interaction at the opposite end to the hanger, but in some cases it must be the actual nut and hanger being pulled about - in which case wouldn't nylock nuts help? They definitely make them in M12 (A4/316). Wouldn't this help?

 jimtitt 04 May 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom:

There's nothing to tighten them against until the bolt pulls up, the inner core just turns.

 TonyM 04 May 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

That's a good point. But once the inner core has locked in position by tightening with a normal nut, the initial nut could then be replaced with a locking nut, perhaps? I've not done any bolting, so might be considered too much faff, on top of the work already needed to get that far!

 beardy mike 04 May 2021
In reply to bpmclimb:

Quite a randomly different thing to add to this, Metolius have brought out a hanger with a built in cone washer to resist the nut undoing which thought might be of interest to you what with your bolting tendancies... https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/spring-force-bolt-hanger.html 

 jimtitt 04 May 2021
In reply to TonyM:

> That's a good point. But once the inner core has locked in position by tightening with a normal nut, the initial nut could then be replaced with a locking nut, perhaps? I've not done any bolting, so might be considered too much faff, on top of the work already needed to get that far!

Which doesn't help if the bolt/hanger comes loose since you can't tighten it again, same with Loctite.

 jimtitt 04 May 2021
In reply to beardy mike:

As is the new Fixe hanger, whether it works we shall see!

 Rick Graham 04 May 2021
In reply to beardy mike:

> Quite a randomly different thing to add to this, Metolius have brought out a hanger with a built in cone washer to resist the nut undoing which thought might be of interest to you what with your bolting tendancies... https://www.metoliusclimbing.com/spring-force-bolt-hanger.html 

Nice idea.

However this assumes that the rock is flat. The same effect can be achieved if a very slightly concave area is chosen to use  with a normal hanger.

So much to think about when placing a bolt.

In reply to jimtitt:

> There's nothing to tighten them against until the bolt pulls up, the inner core just turns.

Ha ha of course! it dawned on me just how daft that idea was as soon as I saw your reply. Face palm moment. I've used them on resin-in threaded rod (which of course won't turn) but that's not the same situation as climbing bolts.

Thanks, I think I must need more caffeine!

Post edited at 21:16
 bpmclimb 05 May 2021
In reply to beardy mike:

> Quite a randomly different thing to add to this, Metolius have brought out a hanger with a built in cone washer to resist the nut

Interesting. Do you know where to get them in the uk? Can't find anywhere with a first search ...

 beardy mike 05 May 2021
In reply to bpmclimb:

No idea - try asking Beyond Hope as they are the Metolius distributors in the UK. I could fling a friend a message if you like.

 bpmclimb 05 May 2021
In reply to Rick Graham:

> So much to think about when placing a bolt.

... although you wouldn't think so, judging by where some bolts have been placed   :0


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