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Lundy Appeal for Donations

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 Frank Cannings 02 Aug 2020

"The 3 months of Lundy being in lockdown has put the future of the island in real jeopardy" writes Derek Green, Lundy General Manager, in his 28 July  letter appealing for donations to "help Lundy recover from the impact of coronavirus and survive the difficult winter months ahead". "Lundy is overwhelmingly dependent on the income from holiday guests and day visitors. Being closed for 3 months has been a huge financial blow, even after making full use of the government furlough scheme".

Visits by climbers are not a major contributor to the Lundy economy, but it is an important and special venue within UK climbing, and climbers have always been warmly welcomed on the island. We should help to preserve that. Further information on the appeal can be found at: landmarktrust.org.uk/lundyappeal

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 mullermn 02 Aug 2020
In reply to Frank Cannings:

> "The 3 months of Lundy being in lockdown has put the future of the island in real jeopardy"

I thought Lundy was basically a nature reserve with a few guest accommodations on it. How is its future in jeopardy? Are all the fulmars going to search for work elsewhere?

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been to Lundy and it’s a special place, but given the wider context this has got to be about the most first-world-problem appeal I’ve ever seen.

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 WVRox 02 Aug 2020
In reply to Frank Cannings:

Struggling to see how your post generates 2 dislikes! 

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 climbercool 02 Aug 2020
In reply to WVRox:

I didn't give a dislike, promise!   But I understand why some may not like this appeal.  It is well known that people give to charity in a finite way, ie if they give 5$ today they are likely to give less/nothing  next time they're asked to donate.  So by giving to this charity some other potentially more worthy cause will recieve less funds.

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 WVRox 02 Aug 2020
In reply to climbercool:

Yeah I get that, but hundreds of climbers have been to Lundy and most have a fabulous and pretty much unique experience. It costs a few quid to keep the island running in the way that it is  - surely worth putting your hand in your pocket for? 

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 Offwidth 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Frank Cannings:

Thanks for highlighting this Frank. As for this allegedly being a first world problem would that not apply to most first world charities. If people care about how the island is managed for visitors, especially given its importance for climbing, this must be an issue of concern.

The Trust should maybe get a bit more information on its website to help the appeal.

https://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/support-us/projects-and-appeals/

Post edited at 07:22
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 Frank Cannings 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Thank you for your comment. I'll keep well away from any debate about which charities, organisations or causes should be supported as that's a personal choice for each individual to make. It would be a great loss if the Lundy managers were forced to restrict climbing and other activities on the island due to insufficient resources being available to keep it all going.

There's a bit more information specifically about the Lundy Appeal on this Landmark Trust website page: https://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/lundyappeal/

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 Dell 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Frank Cannings:

It's an island FFS.

It just sits there in the middle of the sea, has done for centuries, and will continue to do so long after CoViD 19 has passed. 

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 Offwidth 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Dell:

It's an island managed by a charitable trust who also run facilities so that people can stay and enjoy the sea park, the flora and fauna (especially the birdlife), the historic buildings on the land and the world class climbing. They have done a fantastic conservation job over the years.

Post edited at 15:38
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 toad 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Frank Cannings:

The landmark trust are essentially about property conservation. They take historically  important but neglected and dilapidated buildings and restore them, using money from letting them out as holiday homes to maintain them and restore other buildings. 

Lundy is a bit of an unusual one.  At the time they took it on, the NT weren't interested in holiday let's. It would almost certainly be managed by the NT directly if it came to them now, rather than the Landmark arrangement

As a consequence, the landmark priority will be to maintain their existing built estate, the climbing, the campsite, the conservation will not be seeing the same interest. I could (stress could) see a circumstance  where they shut the pub/shop and campsite and just focus on the building works if money is short and they have to prioritise

Post edited at 15:39
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In reply to Dell:

> It's an island FFS.

> It just sits there in the middle of the sea, has done for centuries, and will continue to do so long after CoViD 19 has passed. 

You could easily extrapolate that level of apathy to the whole of the UK, but let's face it - it's not really constructive is it? Given Frank's close relationship with the island I saw this as quite a positive post and an attempt to give something back to a place that was special not just to him, but a great many others too.

Thankfully the The Landmark Trust didn't have the same lack of enthusiasm back in 2002 when they started the rat eradication programme, which has resulted in seabird numbers trebling throughout the island. Perhaps the mantra "it just sits there in the middle of the sea, has done for centuries" isn't the best to live life by after all?

Rightly or wrongly, places such as Lundy have running costs, be that through personnel or infrastructure. As Offwidth rightly points out, climbers have benefited from both over the years and will hopefully continue to do so in years to come.

Finally, here's a shameless plug for the Lundy Destination Article I wrote back in 2016: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/destinations/lundy-8709

I wish I was there now...

Post edited at 16:12
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 profitofdoom 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Frank Cannings:

> ...... It would be a great loss if the Lundy managers were forced to restrict climbing and other activities on the island due to insufficient resources being available to keep it all going.

Thanks a lot but I'm very sorry I don't see the logic of "It would be a great loss if the Lundy managers were forced to restrict climbing and other activities on the island due to insufficient resources being available to keep it all going", when the Lundy General Manager said "Lundy is overwhelmingly dependent on the income from holiday guests and day visitors.", I'm a bit confused, why would Lundy restrict climbers if they bring that income? Thanks - I'm just missing something I guess.

I went to Lundy climbing and agree it's a special place, loved it

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In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Lundy is pretty nice, is better than many other areas of the UK, not sure. However, unless you can afford to go, and from memory is was not cheap, you are not going to know.  I would rather contribute elsewhere rather than support Landmark Trust. 

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In reply to HighChilternRidge:

It's probably a bit more expensive to get to than most owing to the ferry, but once you're there - assuming you've brought everything with you - it's the same as any other place in the UK. 

When it comes to contributing, the choice is entirely yours

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 Frank Cannings 03 Aug 2020
In reply to profitofdoom

> I went to Lundy climbing and agree it's a special place, loved it

I agree with you on that. As Rob Greenwood said above, Lundy needs money for running costs, such as staff and maintenance expenses, to support the infrastructure that accommodates all visitors, including climbers. That's the "Catch 22": no visitors then no income, no infrastructure then no visitors.

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 Dell 03 Aug 2020

The overall tone of this post is a misleading appeal to emotion, suggesting that the island itself, or the ability to go rock climbing on Lundy are somehow in jeopardy. 

Rock climbers do not require infrastructure, they are perfectly happy to go out of their way to climb in the most inhospitable places on Earth, whether or not there is a hotel and a shop nearby. 

What it really means is that the business side of Lundy may be at risk.

Well that applies to thousands of other businesses in the UK as well, Lundy is not an island (in this respect).

We're all in the same boat. 

Perhaps the people of Lundy could write to their local MP,  the fox hunting millionaire Tory, Geoffrey Cox (49p for a pint of milk on expenses, former Britain's highest earning MP, undeclared income and tax dodge fanboy) and see if he can help out, I'm sure he's got a few quid he can dish out to help his poverty stricken constituents. 

"The future of the Island"

has no context whatsoever. 

People can send their money where they like, but, if by chance nobody responds to this appeal, what is the very worst that can happen on Lundy?

A few extra weeds to pull up on the footpaths and a couple of dead sheep? 

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 profitofdoom 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Frank Cannings:

> In reply to profitofdoom

> I agree with you on that. As Rob Greenwood said above, Lundy needs money for running costs, such as staff and maintenance expenses, to support the infrastructure that accommodates all visitors, including climbers. That's the "Catch 22": no visitors then no income, no infrastructure then no visitors.

Thanks a lot for your explanation, that's clear now

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In reply to WVRox:

> Yeah I get that, but hundreds of climbers have been to Lundy and most have a fabulous and pretty much unique experience. It costs a few quid to keep the island running in the way that it is  - surely worth putting your hand in your pocket for? 

But what if we prefer our island climbing venues to be uninhabited? I thought Lundy was a pretty mediocre experience compared with, say, Mingulay. This could be seen as a positive development.

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 WVRox 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> But what if we prefer our island climbing venues to be uninhabited? I thought Lundy was a pretty mediocre experience compared with, say, Mingulay. 

Go to Mingulay then! 

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In reply to Dell:

So say the island "closes down", the ferry service stops. How are you suggesting climbers get across to the island?

Not saying it's impossible at all, just interested to hear your thinking about how it would still be available as a climbing destination.

I could see one outcome of any closure being that Lundy is effectively banned to human footfall to become a complete back to nature reserve.

Post edited at 21:13
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 Dell 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

> So say the island "closes down", the ferry service stops. How are you suggesting climbers get across to the island?

On a f#@%ing boat. The same way anyone gets to an island. 

Lundy is off the coast of Devon. 'coast' generally means boats, lots of them. 

Some plucky local with a boat, could perhaps charge people money to take them to the island.

It's a system that's been used for centuries to get to islands all around the world. 

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In reply to WVRox:

> Go to Mingulay then! 

Indeed. I went to Lundy a couple of weeks after my first Mingulay trip and was a bit underwhelmed (though the climbing itself was good). Never been back to Lundy, but been back to Mingulay quite a few times. Lundy would appeal more without the infrastructure to spoil it.

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 jbrom 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Dell:

Unless the Landmark Trust are unable to manage the island due to lack of funds and they give up the lease and the National Trust decide that as the Landmark Trust struggled there is no future in bringing visitors to the island and to close the island and ban people from landing.

Not making any comment on the rights and wrongs of this appeal but merely pointing out that a change in management strategy, manager or owner could result in an altered access agreement. There is precedent for this happening elsewhere.

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 toad 03 Aug 2020
In reply to Thread:

or we could spare a few quid for a charity managing somewhere we broadly like to visit, to get through a difficult and unprecedented time. Or not. your choice, really

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In reply to Dell:

30-40 years ago I think what you say would be easily correct, but I suspect that charging people to take them on a boat is not as simple as it used to be; certification, insurance, etc are now barriers to entry that would force it to be a bigger enterprise before it became commercially viable.

Unless it's done totally unofficially - which would probably make it like it was 30-40 years ago.

I wondered whether you were also envisaging things like kayak/climb trips.

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 daWalt 04 Aug 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

Not everyone is such a misanthrope as yourself. 

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In reply to Robert Durran:

> I thought Lundy was a pretty mediocre experience compared with, say, Mingulay. 

Where isn't a mediocre experience compared to Mingulay?!?!

Post edited at 10:47
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In reply to daWalt:

> Not everyone is such a misanthrope as yourself. 

I don't hate people. I just prefer them not to be on the same island.

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In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

> Where isn't a mediocre experience compared to Mingulay?!?!

Pabbay.

Lundy might be quite good too in maybe a hundred years time when the ruins of the pub, bunkhouse and so on are just archaeological curiosities. The issue of the lack of a decent beach might be more problematical.

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In reply to Frank Cannings:

Interesting thread.  I don't think it counts as first world problems for those whose livelihood is at stake, it's a quirky community that is on the brink of going under, and one that is close to the hearts of many of us.

Zooming out historically Lundy has always been like this though - it is populated and significant, and then drops off the radar for a bit, then the pirates arrive from the Barbary coast, or someone builds a lighthouse, or a bunch of batteries, and it comes back into focus.

I feel a bit sad for the responses that say "I'd rather it was just me and the crag".  I think you are missing an important part of the Lundy experience.

Anyway I'll do my bit to prop the place up when I sail this Saturday, inshallah, for a few nights there with the family (Gordon Stainforth eat your hat mate ; ) ).  I pledge to down my own bodyweight in fine beverages from the bar every day...but wait...you have to book the Marisco in advance the day you get there!  Tell me that's just for meals...please someone tell me a casual pint is on the cards?  The youngest has their letterbox pack pre-ordered from the shop, is letterboxing COVID safe?  Who touched that stamp before you?  I can't take it anymore!

Post edited at 23:47
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 Bilberry 05 Aug 2020
In reply to Frank Cannings:

They're open now, and booked solid for the foreseeable future (a quick play on their search page).  It'd be interesting to understand what the costs were that were not covered by the support schemes.

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 daWalt 05 Aug 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

that's going a wee bit too far. you'd happily see a small community go under just to suit your own selfish desire for a wee bit of solitude.

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 profitofdoom 05 Aug 2020
In reply to Bobling:

> Interesting thread.  I don't think it counts as first world problems for those whose livelihood is at stake, it's a quirky community that is on the brink of going under, and one that is close to the hearts of many of us.....

Thanks for posting, but can you please point me to evidence that the "community ... is on the brink of going under"? I can't see that in the comments from the Lundy General Manager, or the website. Thanks

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In reply to daWalt:

> You'd happily see a small community go under just to suit your own selfish desire for a wee bit of solitude.

No. I am just saying that there might be a positive side to it if it did happen.

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In reply to daWalt:

I quite liked the contrast between the solitude of Pabbay/Mingulay compared with the more communal nature of Lundy, where different parties with different backgrounds and interests gather for a pint within the Marisco Tavern.

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In reply to profitofdoom:

> Thanks for posting, but can you please point me to evidence that the "community ... is on the brink of going under"? I can't see that in the comments from the Lundy General Manager, or the website. Thanks

Fair one, neither can I!   I extrapolated from the fact that they have launched an appeal that they are in serious trouble and may have to look at changing the funding model for the island...but you are right they have not said this. 

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 profitofdoom 05 Aug 2020
In reply to Bobling:

> Fair one, neither can I!   I extrapolated from the fact that they have launched an appeal that they are in serious trouble and may have to look at changing the funding model for the island...but you are right they have not said this. 

Thanks - and yes that's right surely, as they've launched an appeal they are in some kind of trouble, maybe serious

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In reply to Dell:

> It's an island FFS.

> It just sits there in the middle of the sea, has done for centuries, and will continue to do so long after CoViD 19 has passed. 

But if it continued as a nature reserve, with all facilities shut down, I doubt camping would be allowed, even if boats continued to visit.

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In reply to Dell:

> The overall tone of this post is a misleading appeal to emotion, suggesting that the island itself, or the ability to go rock climbing on Lundy are somehow in jeopardy. 

> Rock climbers do not require infrastructure, they are perfectly happy to go out of their way to climb in the most inhospitable places on Earth, whether or not there is a hotel and a shop nearby. 

> What it really means is that the business side of Lundy may be at risk.

> Well that applies to thousands of other businesses in the UK as well, Lundy is not an island (in this respect).

> We're all in the same boat. 

> Perhaps the people of Lundy could write to their local MP,  the fox hunting millionaire Tory, Geoffrey Cox (49p for a pint of milk on expenses, former Britain's highest earning MP, undeclared income and tax dodge fanboy) and see if he can help out, I'm sure he's got a few quid he can dish out to help his poverty stricken constituents. 

> "The future of the Island"

> has no context whatsoever. 

> People can send their money where they like, but, if by chance nobody responds to this appeal, what is the very worst that can happen on Lundy?

> A few extra weeds to pull up on the footpaths and a couple of dead sheep? 

You actually no nothing about the place do you?

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In reply to Dell:

> On a f#@%ing boat. The same way anyone gets to an island. 

> Lundy is off the coast of Devon. 'coast' generally means boats, lots of them. 

> Some plucky local with a boat, could perhaps charge people money to take them to the island.

> It's a system that's been used for centuries to get to islands all around the world. 

So you'd be camping illegally on a nature reserve?

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In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> So you'd be camping illegally on a nature reserve?

Only if it were made illegal. Numbers could be limited and there could be a code of conduct to protect the place. In fact the impact ought to be far lower than at present.

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 Max factor 06 Aug 2020
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Lundy would appeal more without the infrastructure to spoil it.

By infrastructure I take it you mean a twice weekly boat (passengers,  no cars), a pub,  and a village shop?  And let's not forget the island Landrover and its own postal service. 

Hard to see  how  this impacts on the 'experience', if you don't  want to use them they are easily ignored. The fact that there might be day trippers had never bothered me either, as I'm usually climbing when they are abroad. 

The community, as others have said are often LM employees doing renovations and wildlife conservation. Its them that the donation would be supporting.

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In reply to Max factor:

> By infrastructure I take it you mean a twice weekly boat (passengers,  no cars), a pub,  and a village shop? 

Yes.

> Hard to see  how  this impacts on the 'experience', if you don't  want to use them they are easily ignored.

I just felt it gave the island a vibe which I personally didn't find particularly appealing, and it removed some of the distinctiveness of other island experiences; there are plenty of pubs, shops and bunkhouses in mainland climbing areas.

Post edited at 09:27
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 Dell 06 Aug 2020
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> So you'd be camping illegally on a nature reserve?

Why would they make camping illegal when it brings in income? 

Answer that and stay fashionable. 

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 Tom V 06 Aug 2020
In reply to Dell:

Lundy's total area is less than six square miles.

Part of its appeal to the day tripper and the holidaymaker ( and thus, its marketability) is the limited amount of "wilderness" on sale in such a confined space.  

While ever camping and cottages are more or less restricted to an area below the Quarter Wall this impression of a wild and uncluttered space is a viable selling point.

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 Crank 17:05 Sun
In reply to Tom V:

I think Lundy is a great place for all aspects of a climbing holiday trip, starting with the 20 mile boat journey from N.Devon. it has a good combination of facilities and some of most varied and quality rock climbing in the British Isles. The accommodation in the Old Lighthouse and the cottages is excellent and well maintained by the Lundy staff. The bunkhouse barn and the campsite are well positioned close to the excellent Marisco Tavern pub and the shop. For those who can afford "eating out" the Tavern also provides excellent meals at reasonable prices. Its definitely a pub with a pleasing atmosphere and also as a venue for informative, entertaining talks by visiting climbers, divers, bird watchers and the island's resident warden. It IS different from Mingulay, being at the other end of Britain for a start, and there's little point in comparing the two places; they are just different and both are well worth visiting. I can see why Lundy may not appeal to 'climbers' like Dell whose profile shows he is very inexperienced, having climbed for less than a year and listing only easier leads at Diff to Severe with occasional VS seconding. Most of the crag approaches and the big tidal range on Lundy are not really suitable for those with such inexperience. I've made my donation to support Lundy Island and I hope many other climbers will help too.

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