UKC

Idling through a couple of guidebooks and dimly recalling things I've gleaned from the web, I realised that I am not aware of any "notable" first ascents of rock-climbing routes by women. I am sure there must be some - to put it in context, I don't do much "armchair" climbing i.e. don't read magazines or website news, and don't scour guidebooks for every last detail. Maybe this puts me in a BETTER position to pose the question though - from a distant viewpoint, women's FAs seem "invisible". I know Anne Arran has been involved with parties' multipitch assaults (and I've never worked out who gets the FA on such ventures - a question for another thread?), and I daresay Julie Tullis put some stuff up both on rock and long mountain expeditions, but, blah de blah, you get the picture.

So many strong female climbers around. Is it not in the feminine psyche to new-route? Or is there something else at play? Or am I being patronising and sexist? This last is not Straggler pugnaciousness, it is a genuine and earnest question, w.r.t. comments I made in a thread about freediving and Tanya Streeter

In reply to Blue Straggler:

They were at it long before your granny was a twinkling in her mothers eye;

http://www.womenclimbing.com/climb/essay.html

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Do you mean notable modern first ascents, or historical? There are quite a few classic routes which were first climbed by women (although often with a male partner, but both are recorded in the FA, and I know in at least some cases the woman was leading).

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I read an interview with Lyne Hill ages ago in which she said that on the whole women didn't seem so bothered about new routing - She made some analogy with marking your territory, I think it was somthing like 'You don't see female dogs p**sing on lamp posts'.

In reply to Blue Straggler:
emma alsford (i think thats how you spell her name?)in pembroke.

In reply to sutty:

Thanks for the link sutty, I think I have read it before, I am certainly (dimly) familiar with Lucy Walker.

In the essay I count one mountain FA ("Wanda Rutkiewicz led a grup up Gasherbrum 2, at the time the highest unclimbed peak at the time") and sort-of one rock FA (" [Lynne Hill] helped put up the first .13 in the East.")

I think Oceanic has independently raised the point that I had in my mind.

In reply to Oceanic:

I still think top climbers go to secret "How to Create A Quotable Soundbite" seminars

In reply to Blue Straggler:
One great new router — Glenda Huxter. Brilliant story about how the route I am Curious Yellow got its name here:

http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=244

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Beth Rodden - The Optimist - 5.14b

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Women FAs go back a long time. As well as the women noted in the article Sutty referenced, there was Loulou Boulez and more recently Nea Morin, Gwen Moffat. Nea Morin put up several FAs on southern sandstone, as well as a few further afield.

Emmeline Lewis Lloyd (1827-1913) seems to be overlooked in women's climbing. Lucy Walker always climbed with her father or brother, but Emmeline Lewis Lloyd usually climbed with a female partner, Isabella Straton. They made the FA of the Aiguille du Moine near Cham in 1871.

They're there:you just have to look for them!

In reply to Oceanic:

Lynn Hill also made a passable go at freeing the Nose.

In reply to Rob Naylor: Recent Quiz question


32.Q/ What was unusual about ‘Dubliners’ climbed in 1958 in the Poisoned Glen in Ireland?

A/ It was lead by a woman, Miss E Healy , who was active on a number of important new routes in Ireland in the late 50’s

In reply to Blue Straggler:


Gasherbrum II was first climbed in the 50s (by men). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasherbrum_II
Gasherbrum III was first climbed by a Polish team that included women http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasherbrum_III

In reply to Witkacy: And in the Llanberis Pass
Nea by Nea Morin, J.M.Edwards. Sept 10 1941.

In reply to Blue Straggler: lynn hill's first free ascent of the nose say's it all?a lot of the top male yosemite climber's had been trying to free it for year's,I think the changing corner's was the main difficult pitch rated at 5.13c-5.14!also the glowering spot 5.12d pitch is pretty naughty!and her comment afterwards of "it goes boy's!" was pretty cool.she also put up a fair few hard routes in the gunk's and vietnam,anybody who want's a good read should get her book "climbing free",on a vaguely related theme has anybody read "the rock warrior's way" by arno ilgner?

In reply to gilldando:

In what way does that "say it all"?

In reply to sutty: great link sutty

"Also in that year Lucy made the fourth ascent of the Eiger, it was said that she "lived on a diet of sponge cake, champagne and Asti Spumante while on expedition". Now thats what I call a Role Model!

In reply to Blue Straggler: Didn't Veronica Lee lead the top pitch of suicide wall? She does in the Hard Grit recreation anyway. Now that was impressive, its a chuffing pumpy lead even with all the gear you can now get into it!

In reply to Adam Moroz: No , in fact in the BMC, Peak (not Peaks notice) climbs 4 Chatsworth guide there is a good description of the first ascent, Hard Grit was innacurate, or taking artistic interpretation a bit far.

In reply to Al Evans: So was it Peter Harding that lead it?

In reply to Adam Moroz:
Emma Alsford has done dozens if not hundreds of first ascents in Pembroke up to E4.
Glenda Huxter has probably done more E5/6 first ascents than another British woman.

<opens can of worms and lights blue touchpaper etc>

Does freeing a route count as a first ascent?

And on that tangent, for unonsightable routes (Harder Faster, Meshuga, Indian Face, Rhapsody etc), what's the etiquette?
Mr Pink spots the line and practices it on top rope, gets the moves hardwired, but by the time he goes for the lead, Mr Orange has got in there before him - does Mr Orange get the FA?

In reply to Blue Straggler:
I being patronising and sexist? This last is not Straggler pugnaciousness, it is a genuine and earnest question, w.r.t. comments I made in a thread about freediving and Tanya Streeter

Yes.

In reply to Adam Moroz: Yes

In reply to Blue Straggler:


It's the first ascent of a free route rather than an aid route. This country is full of examples, twi famous ones being London Wall and the Scoop on Sron Ulladale.

In reply to TimS:

Thanks, that's a good clear answer! Had always kind of wondered

In reply to Blue Straggler:

with the exception of Lynn Hill on the Nose none of the routes mentioned so far really qualify as 'notable'

In reply to Al Evans:

Would you care to elaborate on that, returning the courtesy that I granted to you?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

In my humble opinion, greatest "all round" women climbers:

http://www.everesthistory.com/wandarutkiewicz.htm

absolutely outstanding climber

and of course

http://www.everestnews.com/history/tabei.htm

not only Everest, but all 7 summits.

My opinion, of course ;0)
Den

In reply to Ian Hill:

Really? None of Huxter's routes? I kind of naively thought that any new route above (say) E4, would inherently be notable - is that not really the case?
And Rutkewiecz' work?

Questions asked in earnest again

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Catherine Destivelle freed the crux 7b+ pitch of Pichnibule back in the 80's.

In reply to Blue Straggler: Lynn on the FFA of the Nose, and FFA in a day. I think thats known as showing the boys what they should be doing...

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Well its just that you must have had a suspicion that it was or you wouldn't have mentioned it, and I suspect it is.
There are all sorts of reasons why women have not been as forthcoming as men in new routing; history, demographic, the fact that until recently there were far fewer women than men climbing, the very fact that as in most sports the top males are usually better than the top females, though that of course does not preclude them from doing new routes!
In reply to Ian Hill thats bullshit, many of those routes are both significant and notable, The Dubliners was one of the hardest routes in the Poisoned Glen in Ireland way back in 1958. Nea was breaking down barriers, to be 'notable'it doesn't have to be the very hardest thing about.

In reply to Al Evans:

Thanks.



I guess this is what I was getting at - OK your MacLeods and Birketts and Gaskins etc, are up there at the top end, perhaps climbing that bit harder than the "top women" but, UNLIKE a lot of sports, climbing has a creative, pioneering and exploratory nature to it. If you can't run 400m faster than the world record-holder, you won't make an impact aside from taking more localised records. But an inability to climb (say) E10 does not stop someone from pioneering a fantastic and notable new (say) E4 somewhere.

So I don't think the comparison to "other sports" is too valid here, and that in fact is what brought the question up.

In reply to Al Evans:

by 'notable' I'm meaning good or of three star quality, not hard

In reply to Blue Straggler: I agree, Gary Gibson has never been the best about but his impact and his thousands of new routes have certainly left a mark on UK climbing. I myself have never been cutting edge but I have done hundreds of new routes , many of which give a lot of people a lot of satisfaction. I bet one of my routes alone has had thousands more ascents than all the routes from E6 upwards put together.
So what is 'notable', the achievement maybe not, the route certainly.

In reply to Ian Hill: Well I have answered that a couple of posts higher.

In reply to Ian Hill:

But that's a very narrow interpretation. Early alpine FAs by the likes of Emmeline Lewis Lloyd and Loulou Boulez were neither hard (by mordern standards) nor " 3 star" but are nevertheless undoubtedly "notable".

In reply to Rob Naylor: Some of the routes by Loulou Boulaz in the 1930s were pretty much 'cutting edge' for their time

In reply to Blue Straggler:


As far as I know Gasherbrum III was the only first ascent Rutkiewicz was on (apart from various ‘first woman’ achievements). Her friends Anna Czerwinska and Krystyna Palmowska were on the first ascent of the NW ridge of Rakaposhi, although the ‘ladies team’ followed the men.
http://www.summitpost.org/mountain/rock/173510/rakaposhi.html
To compare, though, Kukuczka put up 10 new routes on 8000ers.

In reply to Blue Straggler: Dorothy Pilley on Cioch West and routes in Wales. Mrs Mummery accommapied Alfred on a few alpine routes (not necessarily rock routes). In fact there were a number of early female alpinists.

In reply to Blue Straggler: Never heard of Louise Shepherd?

http://www.chockstone.org/Interviews/LShepherd.htm

Probably the best female trad climber of her time (was on-sighting E6 in the 1980s), and did a lot of first ascents in Australia.

In reply to AlisonC:
Saw her do right wall back in the late eighties - was that the first female ascent? Not sure. Had the good fortune to stay with her and her brother/s in Melbourne on an Oz trip way back when - a very talented climber.

The Lynn Hill ascent of the Nose is really startling. I think if it had been a bloke we would still be hearing about it now (unless it was Simon who had managed that one b.....d pitch - I don't think he would have shouted too much about it though being so laid back and chilled).

The fact could well be that the changing corners pitch is nigh on impossible for 99% of male climbers and so we have all lost interest and taken our collective bats home.

In reply to AlisonC:

Now you mention her name, yes perhaps. But please check the OP for my various disclaimers and excuses for not having heard of some possibly "well known" climbers.

I think I vaguely heard her name in the context of "a, if not THE, top female climber" but I didn't make a mental note of her FAs.

How many E6s were onsighted in the 1980s? Extreme grades are all quite esoteric to me so I have no real idea, but I'm guessing that a lot of 1980s E6 routes were not onsightable, by any gender? So was Louise in fact one of the top climbers of her era, as opposed to "just" the top female?

In reply to Al Evans:
Ah ! Notable first ascents by women....

Miss, Ms, or Mrs Evans ... in a former life !

Your secret is out lady boy...

In reply to Blue Straggler:


I'm too far out of the loop to know about absolute numbers but I'm sure that a higher proportion of E6s climbed in the 1980s were onsighted than is the case now. Working trad. routes is a spin-off from sport-climbing, which didn't become a mass participation activity 'til the 90s.


Louise was the best climber in Australia regardless of gender in the mid-1980s.

In reply to duncan:




Dogging, frigging, top roping, yo-yoing, pre-placing gear and even headpointing on trad routes pre-dates sport climbing by 100 years.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Dude....I just dont know what to say to that! Open your eyes.

In reply to shadrachyrci:

Sorry, I dont get it ???

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Wel at least 10

In reply to Niall Gault:

This thread is all about opening my eyes. I have learned some interesting things from it. Maybe you can too.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Lisa Rands (rock)
Freda Du Faur (NZ Alpine climbs at the tun of the last century)
Ginny Harrison (first female ascent of Kangchenjunga and 4 8000ers under her belt when she died on Dhaulaghiri. And she was a bloody good rock climber too.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Josune Bereziartu has done a few tricky routes. I think some were first ascents too.......

In reply to Blue Straggler: Emily Daniell led Hope, certainly notable at the time: August 16, 1915.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Beatrice Tomasson - FA of the South Face of the Marmolada in 1901. I think there was a thread on this a little while ago - getting a distinct sense of deja vu posting this anyway...

John

In reply to Blue Straggler:

In the late 1950s/early 1960s, Elizabeth (Betty) Healey was one of the best climbers in Ireland - of either gender. The classic Ploughshare in Donegal doesn't sound too bad at VS, 4c. The reality is much more daunting! Done with one dubious peg and a sling round some vegetation (!) on the crux pitch. High steps with big boots onto sloping ramps. Wet streaks. Moves you really wouldn't want to reverse. No idea whether the line was climable or not. In the circumstances of the FA, it was just about as bold as it gets. A notable effort from a (now) little known climber, who did an awful lot of good stuff.

Mick

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Ruth Jenkins FA of De Vine 8a+, Chee Dale. Route was cleaned up for her as a birtday pressie from John Welford.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Reading through the lists yet again, it does strike me that the number of first ascents by women is actually quite low, even given the lower number of women participating in the sport.

Even at the cutting edge, I don't think Josune Bereziartu has done many when compared to others climbing at the 9a mark.

Is this just an impression or is new routing something women genuinely get less out of than men ?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

http://www.karinmagog.co.uk/index.htm

Karin made the first ascent of Stolen 8a+/8b at Kilnsey.


(it was stolen off me!)