UKC

Stanage Grumbles

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 Mike505 26 Apr 2021

So I just need a rant really, sorry. I get that the Peak will be more crowded than normal due to lockdown. And the parking is barely up to the task, though people also seem to be taking more liberties, maybe another tragedy of the commons?

First up there were 2 motorhomes parked diagonally at popular to create a seating area between them.

Next up, someone parked up on the road side doing laps on the crag with a drone. Am I right in saying Stanage is a no fly zone without permission? I'm more disappointed that they just parked up, blocked half the road, sent the drone out to where a 5 min walk would have got them and then drove off after 30 mins or so.

Top ropes set up on Hargreaves's original, to top it off they'd also set up a hammock under the route and basically claimed the area.

Lastly I left a cam at the base of a route, I nipped back to get it but only found the identification tape on the floor where I'd left the cam, so presumably someone intentionally removed it and made off with the cam?

Oh and then there's the usual smashed bottles, litter and toilet paper etc...

Am I just out of touch despite my relatively young age, or is it generally becoming more of a s**t show, and if so what can be done about it?

I'd say Popular could do with the parking bays being marked a little more clearly to ensure it's used more efficiently and maybe extend the car park to reduce problems caused by roadside parking?

As for crag etiquette, is it that people are no longer getting into climbing through a club, and sort of missing out on the 'apprenticeship' that comes with it?

Sorry for the downer

Michael

2
Message Removed 26 Apr 2021
Reason: offensive comment
In reply to Mike505:

Totally with you on all of this Mike.

All I would say is did you approach the individuals and point out the issues? I've found "most" people genuinely don't think what they are doing is wrong/frowned upon. The parking has always been a massive issue at Popular but like your 2 campervans I'm sure if you pointed out they where parked badly any decent human would sort it out.

Top ropes on Hargreaves should be chopped immediately. Lead it or go elsewhere. But again, people probably don't even think that leaving top ropes up is poor form as it's "their" area of the crag for the time they are there.

Lots of educating to be done! Another one of those naff BMC videos maybe but focusing more on crag etiquette.

Post edited at 09:51
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In reply to Hardonicus:

Careful there, the vast majority of trad climbers in the past god knows how many years are wall-bred. That certainly has nothing to do with the ridiculously poor behaviour outlined here.

 Mike505 26 Apr 2021
In reply to McKEuan:

I'll have a word with folk from time to time but usually about poor belays etc... I feel quite awkward at times about approaching people about general etiquette, though perhaps I should learn to brave it. As for the BMC, I'm not sure if they can help tbh, I think that they're effectively being bypassed due to social media.

Post edited at 10:14
 Mike505 26 Apr 2021

In reply to Hardonicus:

At times I love a popular crag tbh, when the vibe is right ot feels incredible. There's a brillaint sense of community, and great banter. Though this weekends antics felt tragic, intrusive and unsustainable.

Post edited at 10:08
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In reply to Mike505:

Ye, again, totally agree. It's not our place to educate when we're just trying to have a nice day out. Hammocks and music have no place at a busy crag in my opinion. Normally when I let me dog roam free to eat their sandwiches

4
In reply to Mike505:

> Next up, someone parked up on the road side doing laps on the crag with a drone. Am I right in saying Stanage is a no fly zone without permission?

Yes - doubly so because it is within the Park and it's an SSSI. So drone pilots should have permission both from the PDNP and Natural England (which they are unlikely to get - especially during the Ouzel season).

I have a drone myself, and the footage you can get is incredible - but really, how hard is it to just "not be a dick"?

2
In reply to McKEuan:

> Top ropes on Hargreaves should be chopped immediately. Lead it or go elsewhere.

Sorry, but that's just elitist bo**ocks.

I totally agree that 'claiming' a route for any longer than the time it takes for you and your partner to have a go is out of order. But people can climb as they wish, with the usual caveats of impacting the rock or others. You don't get priority because you want to lead. 

35
 Mike505 26 Apr 2021
In reply to planetmarshall:

With regards to drones, restricting their use seems unenforceable without the use of localised jammers or soemthing. We had one hovering around our house a while back, proper creepy and no way of know who owned it or where it came from.

 Offwidth 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

It's always worth approaching with some polite questions but maybe only when others are nearby in case they react badly. My experiences of a busy Stanage are normally way more positive (except for occasional kn*bs with illegal drones and the ubiquitous bad parking... often partly blocked roads due to bad verge packing despite spaces in the Plantation car park). It's simply great to share the enthusiasm for quality lower grade trad as a change from my more common exploration of esoterica.

 hang_about 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

Campervan parked at the High Neb car park on Sunday morning with an awning, picnic tables etc taking up several spaces. I was on the bike, otherwise would have been tempted to accidently 'park' on top of it.

In reply to Mike505:

Live and let live, we have all been locked down for a long time. It is a national park not an area reserved for the "right sort of climbers"

69
In reply to McKEuan:

> Top ropes on Hargreaves should be chopped immediately. Lead it or go elsewhere. But again, people probably don't even think that leaving top ropes up is poor form as it's "their" area of the crag for the time they are there.

What a delightful attitude. 

13
 Mike505 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Presley Whippet:

I'm certainly not stacking a claim on the area for the sole use of climbers, maily saying that the infrastructure isn't there to support the numbers.

But more than that, highlighting certain types of behaviour both from climbers and others that simply can't be sustainable, and will eventually lead to some sort of 'over the top' crack down/legislation.

1
In reply to Mike505:

>  We had one hovering around our house a while back, proper creepy and no way of know who owned it or where it came from.

If someone did that to me I'd be terminating it with extreme prejudice.  By the same means I use for rats and squirrels.

Post edited at 11:09
2
 Mike505 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

I wish we could have done, though most likely I've have just missed and smashed someones window.

1
 wercat 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

with the wonders of modern technology, Arduino, Pi Pico etc it might be possible to have something like an Action Man sized Rapier Missile system that you can set up at a crag to shoot them down

wouldn't it just be operating another drone, innocent pastime ....  As well as protecting people making moves at the edge of their confidence from being distracted or made nervous.

Post edited at 11:28
 gravy 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

My experience with approaching drone pilots is they <all> know they are breaking the law. 90% will down the drone after a brief discussion.  The remaining 10% can get quite heated but also skulk away with their silly toys.

I'm clocking up about 3 drones a day at Stanage at the moment.  They will eventually go away, we just need a man-toy to be invented.

"we're not bothering the birds - there aren't any f*cking birds"

"that's because you're flying your drone"

Someone above mention "incredible footage" - well I can get that by looking with my eyes.  I don't need to record it and view it on my smart phone for it to be incredible and it's much better without the ZZzzzzz ZZ ZZ ZZZZZZ ZZzzZZ ZZZ ZZZZZZZZZ Zzzz ZZZZZ ZZ overhead.

3
 graeme jackson 26 Apr 2021
In reply to McKEuan:

> . Hammocks and music have no place at a busy crag in my opinion. Normally when I let me dog roam free to eat their sandwiches

Loose dogs also have no place at a busy crag in my opinion.

As for the BMC, they are to the hordes climbing at stanage  what FIFA is to a sunday morning kickabout with your kids. 

6
In reply to Mike505:

This experience is in contrast to my own first ‘lockdown session’ over the weekend. I try and avoid the weekends usually for obvious reasons but thought i’d give it a go. Arrived late at stanage, Saturday 17.00 and spent a few hours on the buck stone with dog and picnic. A few others on it too and a good vibe eventually having it all myself. 

Sunday was up and out early to get a parking spot at the roaches, parked up at 8 and it was starting to get busy. Had the upper tier boulders to myself in the cold wind and moved down to the lowers about 11, lots of folk out, kids being encouraged by parents on problems, BAME families out enjoying the outdoors. Only picked up a tissue and 2 fruit shoot caps, amazing considering how many come here. Away early afternoon and the parkie was out giving out tickets. 

Really nice experience as I’ve stayed out of the Peak since late last year and I only live in Belper so easy for me to get in the Peak anytime I want. Perhaps folk are just happier and less stressed because they are out having a good time?

In reply to wercat:

Killer drones!

That's what you need. Fit a drone with an airgun, but it's only use is to lock onto other drones and shoot them out of the sky.

In reply to Luke Brooks:

Actually you do get priority if you want to lead.

leading in a pair is much quicker than a group top roping. so yes, I fully expect somebody to move their rope and group if I want to nip up a route.

If it's a busy day you have to be mindful of other people not just your group and how it impacts. Hargreaves is a very popular route so there will always be people wanting to Lead it. middle of the week, leave your ropes up as long as you want but not on a busy Saturday. That's just selfish.

62
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Pot kettle.

Funny that you of all people call someone out on having a bad attitude.

5
In reply to graeme jackson:

Totally agree. Mine is always tied up when it's busy. I was making a joke about irritating hammocks.

Message Removed 26 Apr 2021
Reason: inappropriate content
In reply to McKEuan:

> Actually you do get priority if you want to lead.

In what way? Sure, there is a gentleperson's code that we follow, but it's not exactly a set in stone rule that everyone abides by. Good luck getting some instructors to move their top ropes. Some do, others will state, and in all reality correctly so, that they have as much of a right to be there as you. So, inconsiderate and annoying as it may be, there is no real hierarchy of activity that gives you and me priority over whoever left a rope there, no matter how much we would like it.

In reply to gravy:

> Someone above mention "incredible footage" - well I can get that by looking with my eyes.

This is the worst argument that's ever been made. Ever. For anything.

32
In reply to McKEuan:

 I agree that hogging Hargreaves (or any route) on a busy day is unacceptable.  But to say that leaders have priority is nonsense.  Yes, it is good etiquette for a toproping group to let someone through to lead it if they're asked nicely, but if you go with the attitude that you fully expect them to remove their rope then you can fully expect to be given advice on sex and travel.

3
 Tom Redwood 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

As a previous model aircraft pilot I agree drones shouldn't be flown in 95% of the place we see them but I believe the penalty for downing one by any means carries the same penalty as doing so to a full sized manned aircraft. Probably due to the law not being updated or the risk of it then crashing onto someone's head. Filming the person, the drone, and if possible getting number plates before a discussion and then possibly sending evidence to the CAA and police may at the very least make them too nervous to do it again. And remember, they might be legally filming (like Rockfax does), although unlikely.

In reply to Alkis:

It's not set in stone no, but it is good manners.

There was a large group the other day and when we asked if we could pop up they moved their ropes for us.  Depends on the instructor.

4
In reply to Howard J:

Just to clarify, I'm not walking up to groups demanding that as a leader they have to bow down and move.

Perhaps I said that a smidge aggressively. Just if you do walk up a group and ask to lead the route their ropes are all over it is good manners from the group to let you lead. Obviously I don't expect them to haul somebody climbing off the wall for me. Just when they aren't using it I can head on up.

 S Ramsay 26 Apr 2021
In reply to McKEuan:

> Actually you do get priority if you want to lead.

> leading in a pair is much quicker than a group top roping. so yes, I fully expect somebody to move their rope and group if I want to nip up a route.

I'm not fully convinced by this argument, what is the difference between a group of 8 friends climbing a route as 4 pairs or each top roping it once? Top roping it would probably be quicker, less faff with gear, fewer anchors to be made, more confident and hence faster when climbing.

4
In reply to Tom Redwood:

> As a previous model aircraft pilot I agree drones shouldn't be flown in 95% of the place we see them but I believe the penalty for downing one by any means carries the same penalty as doing so to a full sized manned aircraft. 

If they were flying intrusively and persistently over my property, as described by Mike505, I'd take my chances with the CAA prosecuting me, starting by establishing whether they have a record of the drone being registered with them.

Post edited at 12:10
In reply to McKEuan:

It's annoying when people take an long time on a route, maybe it becomes poor etiquette/bad manners at some point.

Leading has absolutely naff all to do with it. This notion that a leader has priority because its better style or whatever is, as I said, elitist bo**ocks. 

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In reply to Luke Brooks:

Fair enough.

I don't see it as being elitist just the done thing.

6
In reply to S Ramsay:

> I'm not fully convinced by this argument, what is the difference between a group of 8 friends climbing a route as 4 pairs or each top roping it once? Top roping it would probably be quicker...

My general experience with (many) groups toproping is that they'll intersperse any climbing with lunch breaks, general faff arranging who wants to climb what over several roped lines, and take half a day about it. Often on something that is 'challenging' for them, with the consequent dogging and wear on delicate footholds. Probably with dirty shoes.

1
 neilh 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Luke Brooks:

Why do you say that about leading?

Post edited at 12:46
In reply to McKEuan:

> Actually you do get priority if you want to lead.

Should, anyway.

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In reply to neilh:

I just don't see why a leader has any more right to be on a route, for any given time, than a top roper. 

To be clear, I'm not talking about anything other than the question of style. This notion that 'the leader has proirity'. All things being equal, ie a couple of youths want to top rope a route once each, vs a couple who want to lead and second. Both will take roughly the same time frame. I haven't heard a good reason why the top ropers should stand aside. 

5
In reply to Robert Durran:

OK, but why? 

In reply to Luke Brooks:

Where do yo stand on large groups who drop topropes down classic routes and leave them up for hours on end?

3
In reply to tehmarks:

See my previous posts. 

 mrphilipoldham 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

It’s not just Stanage. Bouldering at Buckstones last Friday we had a drone buzzing directly above us, no more than 4 or 5 metres.. the chap probably didn’t realise we were there so he clearly isn’t arsed about the rules or respect. When we went up on top to walk back to the car my disapproving look got me a ‘what?!’ When I told him ‘what’ he proceeded to tell me that he was a well trained pilot and flew it straight towards and over us again at no more than 3 or so metres up. Piss poor. Isn’t it a 50m exclusion zone from other people?

 neilh 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Luke Brooks:

Are you trying to tell me that when you have been soloing a number of grit routes ( which I assume from your profile you have been), that you have not popped in between leaders  or topropers for a "quick solo".

Is that elitist " bollocks" as well.

Post edited at 13:53
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In reply to Luke Brooks:

Sorry, I somehow skipped over that. I'm not convinced that the case of people toproping in pairs in similar time to a leading party is even an issue, as I'm not convinced that even the most traditional of leaders wouldn't judge the situation on its individual merits rather than immediately demanding they be allowed to climb the route. I certainly wouldn't ask a group to shift their rope unless it was evident that they were going to be there for the long run. If it were obviously a case that they were having a quick go each and then moving on, I'd just get my lunch out.

If you see it from the other side; it's really dejecting to psych yourself up for a particular route you've wanted to do for ages only to find a massive group firmly installed on it for the entire afternoon. If anyone out there is just as strongly motivated to toprope Hargreaves' Original, then frankly they need to find a sense of adventure and climb it as Hargreaves originally intended.

4
 Mike505 26 Apr 2021
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Hmm I think your right with 50m, the one at our end was probably at 8m - 10m, flying along the crag with a few high speed turns close to the crag/climbers.

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

If you can identify the person (by their car or something), then report them to the CAA. They're breaking more than one rule in the ANO by doing that and need to be dealt with as a hazard to the safety of others, in exactly the same way that a dangerous driver needs holding to account.

 Mike505 26 Apr 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

> If anyone out there is just as strongly motivated to toprope Hargreaves' Original, then frankly they need to find a sense of adventure and climb it as Hargreaves originally intended.

Solo... In hobnail boots?

1
In reply to Mike505:

Touché.

 TheGeneralist 26 Apr 2021

My view on toproping groups versus leaders is pretty much the same as my view on people waiting for a boulder problem at the wall:

First off ( inclusive of NULL) => first on.

If there's a group of people waiting to try the route then each one has priority over you, regardless of style of ascent.  However once they have completed it, or failed to complete it then their "right" to be at the front of the queue is significantly reduced.

Once they've all had a go, or as soon as they've stopped having a go. Eg lunch, then you're more than eligible to have a go yourself.

In reply to tehmarks:

No worries. Yes, all I'm questioning is the comments about a leader getting priority over a top roper, generally. I totally agree that big groups are a pain, and top ropes shouldn't be left up to claim a route.

I don't entirely agree with your final sentence though. If someone wants to top rope a route (any route) then, as far as I'm concerned, have at it. Maybe that's adventure for some. And as for getting in people's way, I bet I can set up an anchor and climb the route (twice) faster than you can lead it, set up an anchor and bring up your second 😉 

Post edited at 14:46
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In reply to neilh:

I'm not seeing the correlation.

I haven't stopped a leader or top roper who's about to start climbing and said 'wait there sunshine, I'm a soloist, don't you know' and gone ahead.

If someone says 'you'll be quicker, go ahead' then I say 'thanks' and I try to be quick. 

In reply to Luke Brooks:

> I don't entirely agree with your final sentence though. If someone wants to top rope a route (any route) then, as far as I'm concerned, have at it.

I think that if anyone wants to toprope a route and they're not causing any damage and are being considerate, then crack on. But if a committed person has the same strength of passion for toproping particular classic routes as the average motivated leader, then they should engage fully with the sport and aim to climb in a style that does justice to the visions of the original ascensionists of these classic routes. They're wasting their potential otherwise. They're missing out on a huge and hugely rewarding aspect of climbing by reducing the challenge entirely to just making the moves.

It's a bit like describing oneself as having a passion for beer...but only drinking Fosters and Carling.

18
In reply to Mike505:

To get back on-topic (and acknowledging I've contributed to the drift) I was at Stanage on Sunday.  Down at the Plantation there were signs every 100 yards asking people not to park on the verges, and most had vehicles parked literally right next to them.  Despite it being a very busy day there were plenty of available parking spaces at the PDNP car park.  OK it's £4.75 a day but that's not a fortune especially if there's more than one in the car. 

2
 neilh 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Luke Brooks:

Mmmmm 

Bet you will have nipped in. Just like we all have done. 

4
In reply to neilh:

What, without asking? Out of a sense of superiority? Or even just because I think I'll be faster? Honestly, no. 

1
 wercat 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Howard J:

£4.75 a day!  Blimey, that compares well with prices in the English Lake District!

 Greenbanks 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

Easily solved.

1. Parking: Divert some of the £Billions spent on HS2 tunnelling to build a substantial underground carpark

2. Drones: Establish a group of Drone Rangers, with powers to knee-cap the offenders on the spot

Sorted

1
In reply to thread:

The group "pain" is surely when ropes are left up that aren't being used. If the ropes are in use then it's surely first come first served regardless of style. Courtesy may mean they allow you to nip in but you shouldn't rely on it or expect it.

If the ropes aren't being used, then ask, or pull them to one side, or pull them down, etc, whatever your preferred approach is depending on the circumstances.

If the group is a large group then it might be inconsiderate of them, but they were still there first. However I'd say it's not on for a group to effectively increase its size by having two adjacent or nearby routes where they hog both routes by half climbing one route then the other, and the other half doing the opposite.

Instructors should know better, they're hardly being very professional if they're not treating other users with courtesy.

In reply to tehmarks:

To follow your analogy, I love beer, but if someone's passionate about carling, and that makes them happy, then it's a crying shame but that's ok with me. I'm not going to push in front of them at the bar. 

1
In reply to TheGeneralist:

> My view on toproping groups versus leaders is pretty much the same as my view on people waiting for a boulder problem at the wall:

> First off ( inclusive of NULL) => first on.

> If there's a group of people waiting to try the route then each one has priority over you, regardless of style of ascent.  However once they have completed it, or failed to complete it then their "right" to be at the front of the queue is significantly reduced.

> Once they've all had a go, or as soon as they've stopped having a go. Eg lunch, then you're more than eligible to have a go yourself.

This 

1
In reply to Luke Brooks:

It's a crying shame, and I'd be very sad that they hadn't discovered the true essence of the thing they purport to love. I wasn't arguing that they should be pushed in front of; I'm arguing, in a roundabout way, that people toproping are almost certainly less connected to any particular route than a leader who's been working up to it all day, month or year is, and that is where the problem lies with groups monopolising lines for hours on end. They could monopolise almost any line and have an equally great time - so why pick a seminal classic with a long line of leading suitors?

And, as I say, if anyone is truly that driven to toprope specific bits of rock, they should direct their passion appropriately and step up to the true challenge. But that wasn't, ultimately, the point.

9
 Tom V 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> The group "pain" is surely when ropes are left up that aren't being used. 

Exactly, and it applies not just to top ropers but also leaders "working" a route. 

If you need a lunch/coffee break show some consideration and dismantle your belays/ pull your ropes through and give someone else a chance to enjoy the rock.

 richprideaux 26 Apr 2021
In reply to planetmarshall:

> Yes - doubly so because it is within the Park and it's an SSSI. So drone pilots should have permission both from the PDNP and Natural England (which they are unlikely to get - especially during the Ouzel season).

Errrm sort of. The PDNP byelaws* refer to flying powered model aircraft from access land (i.e. you cannot without permission, and they say no). The PDNP would say that this applies to drones, including hand-launching from a PROW. The CAA and a bag of solicitors may disagree, but I don't think it's ever been tested in court - a bit like the National Trust byelaws for the same.

The SSSI issue is more serious, but would still need to have proof of disturbance  - i.e. not just the opinion of other users of the crag on that day. There is no specific requirement to get a licence from NE, but obviously there is for conducting a PDO (Potentially Damaging Operation).

Flight operation within proximity to uninvolved people, and which certification/registration you hold A1/A3 or A2, GVC etc etc), would probably be the biggest legal issue for most of the drone flights that go on at Stanage. And Ogwen. And Snowdon. And Gogarth. And everywhere else that Instagrammers and YouTubers visit...


*as far as I can see, happy to be proven wrong - I often am in life

 mrphilipoldham 26 Apr 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

I did wait around in my car for a little while expecting them to not be long, but they must have walked on further as I couldn’t see them again when I poked my head back round the corner a bit later. Couldn’t hang on much longer as I had an appointment!

In reply to Mike505:

> Hmm I think your right with 50m, the one at our end was probably at 8m - 10m, flying along the crag with a few high speed turns close to the crag/climbers.

I'd politely ask for their written permission, if lacking, hexes on rope should resolve the problem. 

1
In reply to Tom V:

> Exactly, and it applies not just to top ropers but also leaders "working" a route. 

> If you need a lunch/coffee break show some consideration and dismantle your belays/ pull your ropes through and give someone else a chance to enjoy the rock.

Basic etiquette, you just flick the ropes to the side, so everyone knows you aren't using them at present, it's like an invite. 

Proximity of parking is the issue. Needs to be some central car park at least 1km down the hill and all the problems will be resolved. 

 kevin stephens 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

Interesting but not unexpected UKC pitchfork pecking order

Top ropers, then drones much worse than selfish parking or blatant gear theft

Post edited at 17:02
 Tom Redwood 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

So worth risking a long prison sentence (in theory) ?!  The smart move is to break it when it's landed... admittedly not as fun though

In reply to Tom Redwood:

> So worth risking a long prison sentence (in theory) ?!  The smart move is to break it when it's landed... admittedly not as fun though

Judging by the other thread, criminal damage is acceptable as long as you feel morally justified ( ER vs Shell). 

3
 Tom Redwood 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

Who would down vote this, the guy who stole your cam?!

 hang_about 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

From our American friends - the only solution to a bad guy with a drone is a good guy with a drone.

I hate drones. It's the noise and proximity. I did find someone paragliding along Stanage one evening a bit off putting but that's hardly commonplace. I quite enjoyed the Spitfire doing turns and then appearing to strafe Hathersage.

 Tom V 26 Apr 2021
In reply to gravy:

> Someone above mention "incredible footage" - well I can get that by looking with my eyes.  

But the problem is that you can't , and the perspective that good drone photography puts on established views and situations is new, refreshing, revelatory and pretty bloody impressive. 

Anyone with any real feel for climbing in the UK should have been overjoyed to watch that Wreckers Slab video, and that's just one example. I've been watching a series of films made by a local man flying over all the villages near me. It's fantastic, the only previous chance you'd have to get that viewpoint would be by commissioning a helicopter flight.

To balance things up, I should admit that I've never been pestered by a drone or had the noise intrude on me, and i can imagine that it's as annoying as kids  on quad bikes  and other such anti-social activities: but as far as the images are concerned, to say that you can get the same view just by looking with your eyes is way off the mark.

11
 wercat 26 Apr 2021
In reply to kevin stephens:

Drones far worse

 Tom V 26 Apr 2021
In reply to hang_about:

Yes, a bit odd how a Spitfire or Lancaster engine pumping out a fair few decibels has people drooling and wiping a tear from their eyes yet a Ducati engine or a drone invokes antipathy. Maybe if drones and motor bikes could borrow the Merlin noise there would be fewer complaints.

(If I had a paraglider I'd like to fit it with a Vulcan howl......)

14
 Mike505 26 Apr 2021
In reply to kevin stephens:

Na, I just listed it in order of occurrence.

Post edited at 19:06
 Mike505 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Tom Redwood:

Or the drone pilot? Maybe the hammock guy? Though I'll take 82:1 and run before I put my foot in my mouth.

Post edited at 19:10
 LakesWinter 26 Apr 2021
In reply to McKEuan:

> Actually you do get priority if you want to lead.

> leading in a pair is much quicker than a group top roping. so yes, I fully expect somebody to move their rope and group if I want to nip up a route.

> If it's a busy day you have to be mindful of other people not just your group and how it impacts. Hargreaves is a very popular route so there will always be people wanting to Lead it. middle of the week, leave your ropes up as long as you want but not on a busy Saturday. That's just selfish.

This post is spot on. It is selfish to top rope hog classic routes at a busy crag at a busy time. End of

5
 LakesWinter 26 Apr 2021
In reply to LakesWinter:

Its also selfish to doagonally park your campervan at the popular end, to have BBQs and open fires outside on peat moorland, to leave litter, to van camp in a tw*ttish way and so on. It comes down to selfishness.

In reply to Presley Whippet:

Hahahaha

In reply to Mike505:

Not just Stanage but generally. More people out there, more people not used to codes of conduct, more people willing to flout social codes or laws, less enforcement....presumably all increased after pandemic/lockdowns.
Increasingly I've found myself criticising others for doing/not doing certain things, but illogically justifying to myself that its OK to flout rules/guidance that I don't want to follow.
Overall a general increase in selfishness and feelings of entitlement.

 mrphilipoldham 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Tom V:

We've all to be thankful for the Merlin engine, very few of us can be so for a Ducati... 

Paragliders do come with that 70s Bond gadget 'beep' noise, surely that's cool enough

1
 Misha 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Luke Brooks:

> I totally agree that 'claiming' a route for any longer than the time it takes for you and your partner to have a go is out of order. But people can climb as they wish, with the usual caveats of impacting the rock or others. You don't get priority because you want to lead. 

Sort of. The first person on the route has priority for the day. If they want to set up a TR, that’s their right. It might be a bit antisocial on a popular route on a weekend but it’s their right. However it would be common courtesy to move the TR so someone else could lead the route. I would certainly do that. In fact I’d want to see them lead it as I might pick up beta etc. I’d also be happy for someone else to TR, for the same reason. And any aspiring leader might appreciate having a ready made anchor (after checking it, of course). Win-win!

9
 Albion 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

Sounds like the average kind of behaviour you get from the British tribe .  In my opinion, an unwelcome by product of the marketisation of the sport.

3
 ad111 27 Apr 2021
In reply to McKEuan:

> Fair enough.

> I don't see it as being elitist just the done thing.


"Me doing the same thing as others but with a rope coming from below rather than from above means I am more important and get priority over others"

"I don't see it as elitist"

What a thread!

7
 TheGeneralist 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Misha:

>  The first person on the route has priority for the day. 

No they don't.  They have priority for as long as the people who were with them are actively trying the route in a reasonable manner.

Once they stop for lunch,

Or more people turn up after the theoretical interloper 

Or perhaps once they start flailing hopelessly and taking up a huge amount of time 

Then they no longer have priority IMHO.

In reply to LakesWinter:

Sure, it is selfish to hog routes for longer than needed, but being "selfish" is different to saying that someone else has priority "priority". It's dead annoying but they have as much right to be doing what they are doing as we do to want to lead the route. Your mental health would be far better served to not get worked up about priorities and just ask them nicely if they could move the top rope.

 Offwidth 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Albion:

Another tin hat... where is all this mass marketisation? Climbing on Stanage was less busy in the summer than it was in the years before covid, as much of the parking (and the vast majority of the bad parking) was taken by a big increase in people walking. When I started climbing at the back of the 'Ken Wilson style trad leading ethical golden age', bad group practice was everywhere. These days thanks to peer pressure, the BMC, Mountaineering Training and University safety concerns it's a lot less common.

1
In reply to tehmarks:

> And, as I say, if anyone is truly that driven to toprope specific bits of rock, they should direct their passion appropriately and step up to the true challenge. But that wasn't, ultimately, the point.

And if they fall off, and this results in life-long pain, life-changing injuries or death, well that's a price worth paying to maintain the arbitrary ethics and traditions of British climbing, which have nothing to do with keeping the hobby as elitist as possible, so deterring the 'hoards' from descending on the limited amount of climbable rock that there is in the UK (or at least England). Nothing at all, honest.

7
 alan marshall2 27 Apr 2021
In reply to LakesWinter:

Do you feel the same about someone faffing around for hours on end on lead?  

I'd tend to stop my toproping (or leading/soloing) of a route developing into a siege if someone else turned up wanting to lead (or toprope). I've seen relatively few situations otherwise and so sense the majority take just the same line. 

Where I have seen problems it has generally been down to a daring lead climber taking the 'chop all topropes view'.

In reply to ad111:

And the sweeping statement award goes to.....

2
 Mike505 27 Apr 2021

To be honest the top roping is fine and needs no discussion imho. A line put down  Hargreaves is no problem at all, It can be moved without issue, let the climbers enjoy the route in a style of they're choosing, providing they don't damage rock and respect that others will want to climb there. What's the difference between 6 top ropers and 3 lead time time wise? Probably not much if done properly and then moving on after they're finished. The issue was the base-camp and hammock that pretty much didn't give anyone the choice of asking ofnthey could nip up it.

For reference I don't understand the desire to top rope safe routes that can be lead without a high risk of injury (irrespective of grade), though I accept that others may wish to. I do however encourage people not to top rope safe routes / mid-grade classics, and instead to climb easier routes and practice gear placement. In the hope that they'll work up the courage to lead onsight and come to understand the rewards that come with that approach.


The parking was a worse 'sin' to be honest (again in my opinion), as it actually prevents people being able to use the area/crag in any way at all. With the bays being so poorly marked it leads to the car park being full due to bad parking despite having room for a fair few more cars if folk squeezed in a little better.

1
 Qwerty2019 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

Bad Parking, route hogging, gear stealing, drone flying, crag dogs, elitism etc etc etc.  Climbers can be knobs just like all the rest of the human race........ Every subject on here is debated, argued and very rarely is there agreement.  Which tells me there are no codes of conduct, no unwritten rules or gentlemens agreements.  Its all just people trying to enjoy themselves whilst passing judgement on others for trying to do the same.

In the grand scheme of things it shocks me how climbers like to think they are any better in the way they act than anyone else.

2
 Offwidth 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

Little of the bad parking is climbers. I've never seen a climber flying drones where they are banned. Most gear stealing is almost certainly non climbers, aside from crag swag.

Internet forum arguments are a poor represention of the views of most climbers who on the crags are much kinder to each other and do usually follow informal agreements and nearly always semi-formal agreements (like bird bans) and nearly always don't climb in a way that would damage the rock. Even for all the arguments on this forum any newspaper comments page make us look like saints.

Climbers are a good bunch but yes they are still human.

Post edited at 11:38
1
 gravy 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Tom V:

I beg to differ - I can tell you without the slightest shadow of doubt I get more from looking out from Wreckers Slab once [other climbs/cliffs/mountains available] that I'll get from a lifetime of 4k youtube drone shoots.

 Mike505 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

I'm not sure about that, I certainly don't put climbers up on a pedastool, but they're rarely the ones with disposable bbq's and smashing glass bottles.


As for codes of conduct aren't they in most guide books? Though apps should probably have a 'respect the rock' advice and tips that flashes up when logging in, if they don't already.

 Qwerty2019 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

Little of the bad parking is climbers -   But whenever there is a convo on here about paying for parking or dumping cars on grass verges there is almost always a 50/50 split of those that hate paying and condone dumping and those who think paying for parking is the right way to do it.  Then there are the really argumentative sorts who dont mind paying but want to do it without cash just to make it more open to interpretation.

I've never seen a climber flying drones where they are banned - that means it doesnt happen.  I know plenty of climbers who use drones extensively.  I dont judge them and dont read up on rules to want to judge them 

Most gear stealing is almost certainly non climbers, aside from crag swag - Has it been unilaterally confirmed crag swag isnt just another way of stealing?  How do you prove that missing gear is more likely to be stolen by someone who has zero use for it and zero appreciation of what it is against someone capable of taking it and either selling it on or actually using it.

Internet forum arguments are a poor represention of the views of most climbers who on the crags are much kinder to each other and do usually follow informal agreements and nearly always semi-formal agreements (like bird bans) and nearly always don't climb in a way that would damage the rock. Even for all the arguments on this forum any newspaper comments page make us look like saints.  - Nah, i would say they are a pretty good representation of climbers.  Because climbers are people and in general people are judgemental of others.  Regardless of common interests people like to complain about others and put them in their little boxes.

Climbers are a good bunch but yes they are still human. - Yes i would agree.

3
 Qwerty2019 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

So because climbers don't do 2 things you listed, they are not capable of many many other things which other people find socially unacceptable?  Climbers certainly are not there to be placed on any pedestals.  Just like everyone else, they are trying to have their fun.  Sometimes it effects others in much the same way these BBQ and bottle people are.

 Offwidth 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

There is no such 50:50 split on verge parking, you are making shit up. There is a big split on the benefits of paid parking versus legal free parking areas.

Legal use of drones may bug some climbers but it's not what nearly all the UKC complaints are about... drones well under the legal minimum distance, often on crags where they are banned. The climbers I know that use drones are very responsible.

Crag swag is technically theft in the same way as clearing something of similar value that may or may not have been abandoned. No one is ever going to prosecuted for it. On returns my view is if its expensive kit (or has other value, like an annotated guidebook), sure, but I'd never advertise to return a single nut.  I see it as dumb to even attempt to return damaged recovered gear but good to clear it if the rock isn't damaged in the process.

On genuine theft I've known of some climbers who steal gear but most thefts from any evidence seem to be non climbing criminals, selling the thefts on. Same for cavers (who used to hide in bushes near Stoney to catch the buggers).

If you believe what you say about web forums you are a bigger fool than I thought. If you judged all people from newspaper comment pages, a stable society would be impossible. Judging climbers from UKC will also greatly exaggerate negativity. Sure most people put others in boxes sometimes, and that's not ideal behaviour, but its way easier and more common to moan about such things anonymously online than in person.

Post edited at 12:45
3
 gravy 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

I think it's worth bearing in mind that not all "bad parking" is bad parking, some of it is just random organisation.

So what looks like "someone parked badly and could have left space" might well be the result of the people who arrived first parking at opposite ends of the bay  not leaving an integer number of spaces between then (also they cannot anticipate what sized vehicles arrive after them so cannot meaningfully predict the correct spacing) so large, but sub-car sized gaps, can arise even if everyone parks well. This process reoccurs as people come and go through the day with different sized vehicles.

While muppet parking does exist, any system without marked slots will, over time, end up with 3/4 sized slots. 

Any system with slots will also be sub-optimal because it will give oversized slots to undersized cars.

 Mike505 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Qwerty2019:

I'm sure/know they are capable of anti-social behaviour and what I listed wasn't meant to be a complete list

Though from my personal experience, within the climbing community I don't think its very prevelant. Most of the disruption I've experienced at crags simply isn't from climbers.

 Mike505 27 Apr 2021
In reply to gravy:

I know, i was just highlighting that clearly marked slots would probably be of benefit.

In reply to ad111:

> "Me doing the same thing as others but with a rope coming from below rather than from above means I am more important and get priority over others"

> "I don't see it as elitist.

The convention has always, as far as I am concerned, been that top ropers "practising" should give way to people wanting to lead a route "properly". I don't think that somebody wanting to lead should have to ask top-ropers to give way; the onus should be on top-ropers to ask anyone who approaches whether they want to lead the route and then, if necessary, move out of the way as soon as reasonably possible (certainly as soon as the person on the route has finished it). I don't often top-rope (it just feels a bit "dirty" to me) but I would always offer to give way to somebody wanting to lead.

If this is elitist, then so be it. "Elitism" is not a dirty word and there is nothing wrong with elitism in climbing.

I have noticed that top-roping on my local crags has become the norm during the pandemic with people using them as outside climbing walls, draping them with ropes, making getting on some routes difficult at busy times. I hope that this will be reversed now that climbing walls are open again and these people can go back indoors or go shopping or whatever it was they were doing before. 

15
In reply to Offwidth:

> Most gear stealing is almost certainly non climbers, aside from crag swag.

And yet I can remember when stealing was a way of life for certain sections of the climbing community, almost a badge of pride. Just think back to all those tales of Brits climbing in the Chamonix valley, living in Snell's field on the understanding that they restricted their gear thieving to their competitors shops and living on whatever they could steal from the 'loading bays' in the local supermarkets. (That is, the areas out of the sight lines of the CCTV cameras...)

 PaulTanton 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

Was this last Saturday? I was at Stanage. It was a circus. Yes that f*#kin drone was very irritating.  I think drones are illegal in the peak park(?). 

The people on Hargreaves, I shake my head in disbelief. They were cooking at the crag. I asked if the were training for the greater ranges. Don’t think they got that.

Strange, and other crags, are becoming a rubbish dump. I carry a bag to put rubbish in that really offended me. Get some strange looks when I offer to carry someone’s orange peel that they can’t be arsed to pick up. I think orange peel does degrade in about 100 years. 

it’s just very sad that some people can’t acknowledge that others want to enjoy the outdoors without noise, rubbish and general stupidity.

 PaulTanton 27 Apr 2021
 Andy Gamisou 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Squidward Tenticles:

> And if they fall off, and this results in life-long pain, life-changing injuries or death, well that's a price worth paying to maintain the arbitrary ethics and traditions of British climbing, which have nothing to do with keeping the hobby as elitist as possible, so deterring the 'hoards' from descending on the limited amount of climbable rock that there is in the UK (or at least England). Nothing at all, honest.

Not to mention that sometimes people top-rope because it's, either temporarily or permanently, medically inadvisable to risk leading - even on sports routes.  I've certainly been in this situation a few times, but felt the benefits of doing some sort of climbing outweighed the relatively small risk of top-roping. 

2
 ad111 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> The convention has always, as far as I am concerned, been that top ropers "practising" should give way to people wanting to lead a route "properly". I don't think that somebody wanting to lead should have to ask top-ropers to give way; the onus should be on top-ropers to ask anyone who approaches whether they want to lead the route and then, if necessary, move out of the way as soon as reasonably possible (certainly as soon as the person on the route has finished it). I don't often top-rope (it just feels a bit "dirty" to me) but I would always offer to give way to somebody wanting to lead.

> If this is elitist, then so be it. "Elitism" is not a dirty word and there is nothing wrong with elitism in climbing.

> I have noticed that top-roping on my local crags has become the norm during the pandemic with people using them as outside climbing walls, draping them with ropes, making getting on some routes difficult at busy times. I hope that this will be reversed now that climbing walls are open again and these people can go back indoors or go shopping or whatever it was they were doing before. 

Peak UKC -

"Climbing the route with a rope coming from above feels dirty"

"Those who climb with the rope coming from above should move away as soon as possible for the person who wants to climb with the rope below them"

"People top rope during a global pandemic" *Outrage*

"I hope people who top roped during the pandemic go away as soon as possible"

Regarding elitism - You're suggesting that by leading a route you're providing more worth or value to society and because of that you should be given special dispensation.

14
 Lankyman 27 Apr 2021
In reply to ad111:

> Peak UKC -

> "Climbing the route with a rope coming from above feels dirty"

> "Those who climb with the rope coming from above should move away as soon as possible for the person who wants to climb with the rope below them"

> "People top rope during a global pandemic" *Outrage*

> "I hope people who top roped during the pandemic go away as soon as possible"

I'm with you - topropers are gits

3
 Fredt 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

A little over two years ago, February I think, there was a lot of snow on the ground, and the conditions were looking good for a photo I had wanted to take for years. So I set off about 3am, and drove to Mam Nick car park. It was still dark as I walked over to the top of Winnats Pass by head torch, the crisp air, the silence and stars reminding me of all the alpine starts of my younger years, - magical.

I wandered along the top of the south-west side of the pass, and started descending a little to my chosen view point on top of a buttress, then put up my tripod and camera pointing down the pass. A faint lightening of the sky to the east allowed me to aim my camera for the view of the impending sunrise, framed between the buttresses either side of the pass. I put my big duvet jacket on, poured a coffee from my flask, and sat on my rucksack, waiting for the sun to appear.

The clouds started glowing a vivid red, then orange against the black sky, and all around the snow was deep blue. I was awestruck, feeling so lucky to live not 30 minutes away by car.  I almost forgot I had the camera, then just as I reached to press the shutter, there was a weird buzz. I thought there was an insect in my hood, which I ripped off in very real terror. To no avail, another mosquito buzz started, then another and another, and I became aware of these black objects soaring and diving around me. F*cking drones! There must have been a dozen of them, it was like a scene from Independence Day. The sheer noise! The pilots obviously couldn't see me because I was having to duck to avoid them, I even lashed at them with my axe, (self defense m'lud). Bastards! Ruined the moment.
I got my shots but I was seething all day

I know it wasn't a planned assault, I'm sure each drone c*nt thought there was just themself there, as I did. But I've had a deep hatred of drones ever since, and wouldn't hesitate if the opportunity ever arose to take one down.

1
 GrahamD 27 Apr 2021
In reply to ad111:

> Peak UKC -

> Regarding elitism - You're suggesting that by leading a route you're providing more worth or value to society and because of that you should be given special dispensation.

Sounds about right to me.

 Siward 27 Apr 2021
In reply to PaulTanton:

What's wrong with cooking at the crag? As long as one is not blocking a route so what?

What if I want to play chess? Or read? 

8
In reply to ad111:

> Peak UKC -

Thanks. I'm honoured to have reached the summit.

> "Climbing the route with a rope coming from above feels dirty"

> "Those who climb with the rope coming from above should move away as soon as possible for the person who wants to climb with the rope below them"

> "People top rope during a global pandemic" *Outrage*

> "I hope people who top roped during the pandemic go away as soon as possible"

So you are with me on all of this? Excellent.

> Regarding elitism - You're suggesting that by leading a route you're providing more worth or value to society and because of that you should be given special dispensation.

No. It's nothing to do with society as a whole. It is about what we value and aspire to in our climbing, as has evolved over decades.

Post edited at 15:10
4
 PaulTanton 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Siward:

Some poetry is nice 

 Siward 27 Apr 2021
In reply to PaulTanton:

Indeed 😊

 PaulTanton 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Fredt:

shot gun made do it 

 graeme jackson 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

>  Most gear stealing is almost certainly non climbers, aside from crag swag.

In the OP's case, the thief removed the identification tape suggesting to me that it was most likely a climber. 

 Misha 27 Apr 2021
In reply to TheGeneralist:

If people have stopped for lunch, that’s one thing, but they can flail and have as many goes as they like. If someone really wants to get on a route, they should get to the crag earlier or wait until the route is free or just come back on another day. It’s no big deal. Of course it’s common courtesy for someone who’s been TRing for a while to let someone else lead it but they don’t have to.  

2
 Misha 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

> I'm not sure about that, I certainly don't put climbers up on a pedastool, but they're rarely the ones with disposable bbq's and smashing glass bottles.

I wouldn’t want to put anyone on a pedastool. Sounds like something you might (not want to) put your foot into at the base of a crag. 

 Offwidth 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Squidward Tenticles:

l thought we were talking about current times... that memory of that field makes you old.

2
 Misha 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

I think you’re setting out how you’d like things to be as opposed to how they actually are. It would be courteous for a top roper to let someone lead the route (if it won’t take ages) but they really don’t have to. 

1
 LakesWinter 27 Apr 2021
In reply to alan marshall2:

> Do you feel the same about someone faffing around for hours on end on lead?  

> I'd tend to stop my toproping (or leading/soloing) of a route developing into a siege if someone else turned up wanting to lead (or toprope). I've seen relatively few situations otherwise and so sense the majority take just the same line. 

> Where I have seen problems it has generally been down to a daring lead climber taking the 'chop all topropes view'.

If someone takes a while to lead a route so be it, I couldnt care less they can take as long as they like. That includes if i am belaying. Top roping can often be quicker than leading so it would be selfish to hog a popular route at a popular crag at a busy time with a top rope set up for a long period of time. 

In reply to Misha:

> I think you’re setting out how you’d like things to be as opposed to how they actually are.

If by that you mean that shameless top-roping has or is becoming increasingly accepted, then I think you are, unfortunately, probably right.

 JMarkW 27 Apr 2021
In reply to Siward:

> What's wrong with cooking at the crag?

I don't think anyone should be cooking or making a brew at crags like Stanage when they are very dry, which they were until maybe this afternoon.

1
 Holdtickler 27 Apr 2021

Sorry to say this but there are some serious intolerant and elitist attitudes breeding on this thread. 

Firstly top rope vs lead. The way as I see it, as long as a route is occupied and being continuously used by people who got there before you, regardless of style, then you have two options: A) get in line behind the other equally important humans who are also taking turns and playing nicely just like you would at the wall or on a mountain route. or B) climb one of the other 1000 routes on the 3 mile long crag. If your issue is with folk leaving a route idle then take your issue with that rather than the fact they are climbing in a different [safer] style, ask them nicely to move ropes, cut in etc.

A nervous leader could easily hog a route for ages if they are dealing with fear and/or fiddly gear, or a second struggling to clean it. We tolerate this as we've all been there, as we should top roping too. Most of the hardest routes are toproped first, it's not just beginners. Are we gonna ban redpointing next too?

Secondly - drone hate. Just like in climbing there are rules, codes, ethics, laws in most hobbies which largely run on trust and most people gladly abide by them and try to reduce impact on others and the environment. Then, just like in climbing, there are those that don't. Take your issue with the actual problem (individuals flying too close to people, environmental disturbance etc). We are all happy to be entertained regularly by the footage obtained by drones especially in climbing films. Hard to watch something these days that doesn't use it. If we just blanket ban everything rather than more sensibly regulating it, we'll be living in a very sorry world indeed. There will be a forum somewhere with folk wanting to ban brightly clothed people leaving white marks/crampon scratches on the rocks and disturbing the peace with our noisy climbing calls. Thankfully we are tolerated widely. 

A sensibly parked and empty camper van means the owners are out enjoying the countryside just like you intend to and therefore have just as much right to park. If they occupy that same empty car park at night and either leave again or continue to recreate the next day, then it's just the equivalent of getting there early to get a spot, nobody is harmed. (cue the arguments tarring every van camper with the antisocial behavior brush...)

Antirant over

16
 Siward 27 Apr 2021
In reply to JMarkW:

I don't think fire risk was the objection but fair point.

I suspect the issue is that certain folk think that others should be obeying the 'rules' rather than just doing what they enjoy. 

In reply to Holdtickler:

> A sensibly parked and empty camper van means the owners are out enjoying the countryside just like you intend to and therefore have just as much right to park.

First up there were 2 motorhomes parked diagonally at popular [possibly the most popular parking area in the Eastern Peak] to create a seating area between them.

In reply to Holdtickler:

You say intolerant and elitist I say fed up and irritated by poor parking (read the original post about campers and how they where parked not the fact that they where parked) people making base camp at the crag and cooking food, hammocks, top roping buttresses and bloody drones that interrupt the peace we enjoy at at the crag. Yes Stanage is there for everybody and I'm not suggesting you can only go of you're fully versed on what people consider basic crag behaviour but have some consideration. You're saying we should accept poor parking, big groups cooking and top roping on the flip side should those people also accept that their behaviour is irritating to others?

I have no issues with top ropes really but as long as you're under no illusion that just because you have a top rope up that piece of crag is not yours to hog all day that's fine. If you're going to leave ropes on 3* routes all day it will irritate others. Its 3* for a reason. Somebody toproping their E7/8 proj isn't exactly the same issue as somebody on a low grade starred classic.

Post edited at 20:52
 Holdtickler 27 Apr 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

Fair do's that's antisocial parking I agree. I was addressing more general intolerance in that point. Have seen plenty of indiscriminate van bashing posts on here recently. 

1
 Holdtickler 27 Apr 2021
In reply to McKEuan:

Not saying anything of the sort. If a hammock was strung up out of the way without obstructing a route or a path, then live and let live. If it isn't, then take your issue with the issue or else you're just grumbling.

Why should someone cooking on a stove cause offence? Unless it's right at the base of a route and in the way, then this is just pure intolerance.  I might in just the same way moan about cheese and onion crisps as I detest the smell but would hopefully be told to gee o'er whinging as that is just personal fusspottery.

I am not a fan of any kind of disruptive or antisocial behavior. I Just think we need to take issue with the actual issues rather than being elitist and discriminatory. 

3
In reply to Holdtickler:

I guess I'm of the opinion why do you need to go to Stanage and string a hammock with a camping stove. There's not exactly tons of space at the base of the crag and as the OP says it was at the base of the route so probably in the cave-ish area. In the way in my eyes. 

You keep saying elitist and discriminatory which I honestly don't think it is. It's just people who have been going to Stanage for years who all of a sudden are supposed to just accept people playing music, drones, basecamping etc etc and wrongly or rightly they find it annoying especially as the people that do this behaviour have absolutely zero consideration for other people.

3
 Holdtickler 27 Apr 2021
In reply to McKEuan:

I myself also find many of these things irritating if they are done in an antisocial manner. Music on the crag without consensus of everyone within earshot is unacceptable in my book. Most of these things are only really a problem though if they persist after someone has said something. Unless we are assertive and communicate with other users when it is actually reasonable, then we can't just assume they won't gladly move their hammock if it's in the way, cook elsewhere, turn off the music, yield a route. These are mostly relatively new issues so I guess these conversations need to be had if we want to develop and share codes of practice. I also think however, that if we are not objective about these things then we just risked being ignored anyway. I think new crag users will probably respond better to a polite and humerus chat at the time than to reading overly ranty posts on here but I may be wrong. Do we not have to give people the chance to make good choices before demonising them?

1
In reply to Holdtickler:

Very true. No point moaning on here if you're not willing to address the issue head on at the time.

 Misha 28 Apr 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

I’ve done a fair bit of shameless toproping over the past year. Don’t fancy breaking my legs, especially with Covid going on. 

1
 Misha 28 Apr 2021
In reply to Holdtickler:

> If they occupy that same empty car park at night and either leave again or continue to recreate the next day

> Antirant over

Great antirant. I would just add that if some campervaners have been recreating all night long and continue to recreate during the day, I’d be pretty envious of their stamina. 

 Misha 28 Apr 2021
In reply to McKEuan:

No space at Stanage???

 Mike505 28 Apr 2021
In reply to Holdtickler:

Yea this thread spiraled away from what I was trying to get at initially. Maybe I should have just mentioned the Hammock occupying the start of the route (that was the issue for me) and not mentioned the top-rope?


Though on the matter of top roping, and this is only my opinion so needless to say please challange it:

I do have mixed feeling about top roping, mainly because in my opinion it diminishes the experiences. Sure its fun, have a laugh with mates push youself physically without consequences. But to me it seems more of a disposable experience, other than being outside it's basically indoor climbing and may come with all of the issues that mindset brings.

People won't develope a relationship with the crags in the same way, if the experience means less will they respect the area less? Purely speculation of course. Though I'd certainly say people won't develope relationships with each other in the same way.

The relationship between belayer and leader in my experience is one of the strongest I've experienced. I never trusted or bonded with a friend in that way before climbing, and I know it's not something that would have developed top roping. If our hobby starts to lose those bonds I don't think it will be good for our community or sport/hobby.

Edit: maybe I'm just being melodramatic?

Post edited at 07:53
6
 galpinos 28 Apr 2021
In reply to Holdtickler:

As much as I agree with your sentiment, at what point did the onus flip? In my youth, I was taught to be considerate of others. I wouldn't play music, hog a route, set up a hammock etc if I thought that it would impinge on others enjoyment.

Now, the situation seems to be reversed. You do what you want without consideration of others and the onus is on "the others" to complain to you if they don't like it? This, to me, puts the burden of responsibility on the wrong party.

I feel, "I won't do that because it might affect those peoples' experience" is a healthier attitude then "I'll stop if someone tells me" and might well inform the issues we are currently having with increased usage of wild spaces/national parks/outdoor areas.

Maybe I'm just getting old..... I'm just off out with my litter picker.

Post edited at 09:08
 wercat 28 Apr 2021
In reply to Holdtickler:

I don't think a stove is in the same league as music or drones.  In fact in the outdoors hearing someone cooking is quite nice as long as they aren't making a great deal of noise. 

However, an essential part of the climbing experience is to hear stuff around you from nature, from the sounds of other people climbing etc while still having the mental space to push yourself to do things that might be a bit scary and require calm.

It is not right to claim elitism by people who want the freedom to climb without loud or scary distractions.  It is more the elitism of people who think they can inflict mental interference on others sufficient to impair enjoyment or confidence.

I think there is an element of bullying in going somewhere and making a loud racket and then blaming people for reacting to what you are doing.

Post edited at 09:52
 Lankyman 28 Apr 2021
In reply to galpinos:

Your problem is that you give a sh1t. The others don't.

2
 Holdtickler 28 Apr 2021
In reply to galpinos:

Yeah I agree. Ideally everyone is considerate of everyone else. I agree that the onus should be on not disturbing others in the first place rather than those affected needing to intervene. Nobody wants to challenge the behaviour of others or feel they have need to.

The first time I encountered speakers on a crag (moughton nab) I was absolutely fuming and really felt distracted by it. I felt way too awkward to say anything. The noisy group outnumbered our 2 and were already there when we arrived. I hoped they would have had the decency to ask us if we were disturbed by it and offer to turn it off but they didn't. I'll never know how they would have responded had I said something. I don't know if they even realised that they could have been being antisocial or if that was just their norm. I think the music issue is a big one and probably deserves its own thread really. I certainly think that peace and quiet should be the default and that consensus is the only way to avoid the staking out of territory by larger parties regardless of who was there first.

 Flinticus 28 Apr 2021
In reply to galpinos:

> As much as I agree with your sentiment, at what point did the onus flip? In my youth, I was taught to be considerate of others. I wouldn't play music, hog a route, set up a hammock etc if I thought that it would impinge on others enjoyment.

> Now, the situation seems to be reversed. You do what you want without consideration of others and the onus is on "the others" to complain to you if they don't like it? This, to me, puts the burden of responsibility on the wrong party.

> I feel, "I won't do that because it might affect those peoples' experience" is a healthier attitude then "I'll stop if someone tells me" and might well inform the issues we are currently having with increased usage of wild spaces/national parks/outdoor areas.

> Maybe I'm just getting old..... I'm just off out with my litter picker.

You should meet my neighbours. Shared garden has turned into their dog emptying and play zone. This dog is a basically untrained great dane. Cue nitrogen burn patches proliferating & my elderly ground floor neighbour no longer hanging up her washing in the garden, or the young kids of another family playing outside. We complained and their response? Amounted to 'Well, no-one else has complained, stop harassing us' Have they actually spoken to anyone? No. We spoke to our elderly neighbour and she confessed to being afraid of their dog, disturbed by its barking outside her window but also being too polite / timid / not the sort to complain.

Post edited at 15:26
In reply to Offwidth:

You say: "If you believe what you say about web forums you are a bigger fool than I thought." 

Why so confrontational? 

1
 springfall2008 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

The parking at Popular is often full, I've been there on a busy day and you have to park on the grass verges instead. There is a paid car park down the bottom of the hill but it feels like a long way to walk with heavy packs and last I checked they only took cash (something I don't carry).

26
In reply to springfall2008:

> The parking at Popular is often full, I've been there on a busy day and you have to park on the grass verges instead.

No. No no no. No you don't. You really don't.

2
In reply to springfall2008:

> There is a paid car park down the bottom of the hill but it feels like a long way to walk with heavy packs and last I checked they only took cash (something I don't carry).

Surely if you know you may have to use it you'd keep some cash in the car?

2
 GrahamD 29 Apr 2021
In reply to springfall2008:

> The parking at Popular is often full, I've been there on a busy day and you have to park on the grass verges instead. There is a paid car park down the bottom of the hill but it feels like a long way to walk with heavy packs and last I checked they only took cash (something I don't carry).

I'm assuming this is a wind up.

In reply to tehmarks:

> No. No no no. No you don't. You really don't.

Indeed.  If it's full you park in the pay and display and walk.  As you know it requires cash, you make sure you have some.  Though I do mourn the loss of the Stanage Sticker which solved the issue.

Post edited at 20:48
 deepsoup 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Though I do mourn the loss of the Stanage Sticker which solved the issue.

For locals anyway.  Probably not for someone who thinks the Plantation car park is 'down the bottom of the hill' and somehow further from Stanage than the Pop. End parking.

Unless springfall2008 is talking about the P&D opposite the pool in Hathersage of course, in which case it's fair comment.

In reply to deepsoup:

Even Hathersage is quite close to Stanage (albeit uphill), it's only a couple of kilometres.  Surprised me the first time I walked it, as driving is quite a bit further as the roads are rather circuitous.

 Misha 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

> I do have mixed feeling about top roping, mainly because in my opinion it diminishes the experiences.

We are going off on a tangent here but if you extrapolate that thinking, the logical conclusion would be that anything less than attempting 8,000m Himalayan peaks in winter isn't worth bothering with because it's not proper climbing.

2
 Misha 29 Apr 2021
In reply to springfall2008:

The thing with limited parking at popular places is it naturally limits the number of people in those places, which is not necessarily a bad thing. Pre-Covid, it also encouraged car sharing which is obviously better from an environmental point of view. 

In reply to Holdtickler:

> Secondly - drone hate. Just like in climbing there are rules, codes, ethics, laws in most hobbies which largely run on trust and most people gladly abide by them and try to reduce impact on others and the environment. Then, just like in climbing, there are those that don't. Take your issue with the actual problem (individuals flying too close to people, environmental disturbance etc). We are all happy to be entertained regularly by the footage obtained by drones especially in climbing films. Hard to watch something these days that doesn't use it. If we just blanket ban everything rather than more sensibly regulating it, we'll be living in a very sorry world indeed. There will be a forum somewhere with folk wanting to ban brightly clothed people leaving white marks/crampon scratches on the rocks and disturbing the peace with our noisy climbing calls. Thankfully we are tolerated widely. 

The rules, codes, ethics, and laws for flying drones don't just reside in the hobby, relying on trust for their adherence - but are now governed by fairly strict national laws. All drones now have to be registered with the authorities (CAA) and the flying of drones is banned in most National Parks, SSI's, SPA's and nature reserves, as far as I am aware. The problem is that these laws are not being enforced effectively.

 mrjonathanr 29 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

Do the maths and buy a PDNP parking pass from Castleton visitor centre if it works for you. It covers every National Park run pay and display car park. It is ~£40 per annum, so if you plan to use a pay car park in the Peak more than once a month you will make a saving.

Post edited at 23:27
1
 Mike505 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Misha:

It could be argued, though the example is perhapse a little extreme? I find being on lead can be a very introspective experience. More than that emotions can run higher and must be controlled, it's just so much more involved as there are many more things to manage and be aware of. I'm not against dropping a rope down a route (and have done) but to borrow someone else's words "it doesn't feed my soul".

 Mike505 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Misha:

I'm not sure it does tbh, it just means folk bung up the verges once the parking bays are full, I think extending the parking at popular would be of benefit and would help alleviate those issues to some extent. And maybe throw in a composting toilet for good measue (though I doubt that'll ever happen or be respected unfortunately)

1
In reply to Mike505:

> I think extending the parking at popular would be of benefit and would help alleviate those issues to some extent.

There's a perfectly good car park, rarely full, a sixty second drive around the corner.

> And maybe throw in a composting toilet for good measue (though I doubt that'll ever happen or be respected unfortunately)

There's a perfectly good toilet a fifty second drive around the corner.

In reply to tehmarks:

I think you're underestimating those times by about 30 seconds (which may be critical if you're caught desperately short 😁 ) because of that funny bumpy stretch in the road.

Unless of course you've got suspension with a huge range of travel. I wonder why those bumps never get filled in. Would it just subside again or is it viewed as a "natural" speed bump.

Post edited at 07:16
1
In reply to Michael Hood:

They've definitely gotten worse over recent years too!

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to mrjonathanr:

Peak Area meeting last night published the new proposed rates... £65 a year I think for that PDNP annual pass and no more discount for locals. Most other charges going up about 16% (except 40% for motorbikes!). Proposed parking charges for Popular End and High Neb parking. It's public so I'll try and track the link.

1
 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

I'm going to have to ask Louise for the link as the forward planning section seem to take you in circles.

https://democracy.peakdistrict.gov.uk/mgIssueHistoryChronology.aspx?IId=15793&Opt=2

 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to mrjonathanr:

> PDNP parking pass .. .. if you plan to use a pay car park in the Peak more than once a month you will make a saving.

I'm afraid you're in for a bit of a disappointment if you've bought one thinking you can use it in any Peak District P&D.

 wercat 30 Apr 2021
In reply to John Stainforth:

it's possible to buy quite powerful lasers now.

They should at least be able to take out the camera that entertains the pilot.

 Mike505 30 Apr 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

> There's a perfectly good car park, rarely full, a sixty second drive around the corner.

Maybe they'd do well to put a sign up at popular mentioning that fact, and also installing a machine that takes card, better yet bring back the 'stick up for stanage stickers'?

> There's a perfectly good toilet a fifty second drive around the corner.

True, though again maybe a sign post at popular?

1
 Mike505 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

That's terrible imho, for both visitors and locals. Some may say that the money goes towars maintenance of the area etc... but these parking charge increases aren't in-line with inflation and will effect the poorests ability to access our national parks. It sickens me that free access to outdoor spaces is being ruined. It all adds up and will become prohibitive to some.

Going back 3ish years didn't the PDNP have a 2 year plan, one point of which was "to meet income targets"? This mindset of measure success of a national park through income seems off to me, it's a resource that should be accessible to all not a money spinner. Yes it takes momey to maintain but there surely has to be a line?

Post edited at 09:38
In reply to deepsoup:

I have one. It covers the Plantation and Surprise View which are my most frequently used car parks....and Millers Dale for when I'm cycling with the kids. If it covered Fairholmes, Longshaw and Curbar that would be perfect. Shame. 

It's worth the £40 though, if only not to have to remember to keep change in the car for Plantation. I don't go into shops these days, let alone spend cash..... I have in the past literally had to drive to a cash machine to take out notes, stop off at the Tesco garage to buy some chewing gum or something to break them, if I knew I was going to the Plantation the next day. First world problems and all that....

 Rick51 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Misha:

> We are going off on a tangent here but if you extrapolate that thinking, the logical conclusion would be that anything less than attempting 8,000m Himalayan peaks in winter isn't worth bothering with because it's not proper climbing.

The more logical analogy would be top-roping is like climbing Everest in season with a Sherpa carrying all your gear and oxygen all the way up. Some risk is still there but the experience is diminished.

In reply to Mike505:

Does everything need a sign post? People should have the ability to park their car responsibly without hand-holding. If there is no space to park, it's not acceptable to abandon it on the verge of a single-track lane regardless of there being a car park around the corner. Plan your visit before you visit; it's not completely unexpected that a busy part of the Peak District might be busy, and I don't think it's unreasonable for people to consider alternative options before they arrive.

(I'm not having a go at you, I just despair at the idiots who are incapable of engaging their brain).

In reply to Offwidth:

> Proposed parking charges for Popular End and High Neb parking. It's public so I'll try and track the link.

But if they don't introduce and enforce restrictions on parking on the verge, all that will happen is that everyone will park on the verge next to the parking. Exactly like what currently happens at Plantation, despite the new massive signs.

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

The Stanage Forum continues to make sensible suggestions but the PDNP authority thinking just isn't properly joined up. I agree the area visitor profile could become even more middle class due to these changes. A fundamental problem is most of Stanage area land was gifted for public utility and these changes without change (like better integrated public transport) look to do the opposite.

On a specific, the proposed High Neb parking charge for 10 spaces looks impractical and counter-productive (unless verge parking starts to be treated and 'policed' like the Roaches).

Post edited at 09:57
In reply to tehmarks:

> (I'm not having a go at you, I just despair at the idiots who are incapable of engaging their brain).

I don't think that's the issue - IMO it's more a feeling of entitlement - more like "this where I want to go, I've driven here and this is where I'm going to go, I don't see why I should have to go elsewhere just because loads of other people got here first"

Near the popular end parking there is of course an ok verge to park on just below the junction but that fills up as well leading to parking on the not ok verges, etc.

In reply to Michael Hood:

> Near the popular end parking there is of course an ok verge to park on just below the junction but that fills up as well leading to parking on the not ok verges, etc.

But it is a single-track road, and people parking on the 'ok verge' leads to other people, actually driving, ending up having accidents like dropping their cars into ditches or onto hidden boulders while trying to pass others.

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

Sometimes I just can't understand the mindset of verge parkers. Last Thursday there was a nice looking Jag almost in the ditch just a bit downhill from the Popular End parking. Why would someone buy a car like that and risk wreaking it in that way?

 Mike505 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

Thanks,

So who actually decides what authority gets to manage the gifted land, and who sets the limits of their abilities to make change? I'm not sure of I've read about any positive changes implemented by the PDNP (not saying there aren't any). But £40 - £65 is obscene and the 'stick up for strange' was a a brilliant idea, i can only guess that it was too cheap for their liking?

 galpinos 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

> That's terrible imho, for both visitors and locals. Some may say that the money goes towars maintenance of the area etc... but these parking charge increases aren't in-line with inflation and will effect the poorest ability to access our national parks. It sickens me that free access to outdoor spaces is being ruined. It all adds up and will become prohibitive to some.

The poorest in society don't have cars*. "Free" access to the outdoors does not exist. There is a charge, the cost of getting there, the cost of transport. A parking charge is often nominal compared to the cost of running a private vehicle.

The real  barrier to access for the poorest is the inadequate/expensive excuse for a public transport system that exists in out national parks. Until we move away from the idea that a private vehicle and free parking is the only way to allow "access" to National Parks, we are stuck with access just for those that can afford it, whilst bemoaning the car park charge.

*40% of the lowest income households in Manchester have one vehicle.

 Mike505 30 Apr 2021
In reply to galpinos:

Yes I agree but the charges and costs all add up, ideally there would be adequate public transport, but there isn't and making the cost of it all even more expensive isn't right, for some people those increased charges will be the straw that broke the camels back.

Post edited at 10:24
1
 galpinos 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

I appreciate your point of view (and sympathise, especially as I'm dubious as to where the money goes) but there seems to be no "pressure" on national parks, councils etc to do anything about public transport and reducing private vehicle usage, only complaints about too many cars and not enough free parking.

I feel we are fighting over the little things and ignoring the big, and difficult to solve, issues.

In reply to Mike505:

£40 for a year of unlimited parking, if you're a regular to the area, doesn't strike me as even close to obscene. Obscene is £40 for 24 hours, which is not all that uncommon in large city multi-story car parks.

As someone else pointed out, if you park at Plantation even once a month, you break even.

 Mike505 30 Apr 2021
In reply to galpinos:

You make a fair point, though even with the best of public transport getting from Manchester to Sranage would take quite a while, and public transport isn't exactly budget friendly when trains are involved. I can see a future where self driving electric cars/transports are used in a similar way to taxis, but we're still a longway from that atm.

Post edited at 10:34
 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to ChrisBrooke:

> I have one. It covers the Plantation and Surprise View which are my most frequently used car parks....and Millers Dale for when I'm cycling with the kids. If it covered Fairholmes, Longshaw and Curbar that would be perfect. Shame.

I used to have one years ago, when I spent a lot more time at Stanage and Millstone than I do now, and back then it did used to cover Curbar Gap as well.  More recently (but still a while ago now), the main attraction of the Plantation car park for me was a cup of really nice coffee and a chat with Mr & Mrs buxtoncoffeelover.

> It's worth the £40 though, if only not to have to remember to keep change in the car for Plantation. I don't go into shops these days, let alone spend cash.....

Most local authorities these days have signed up with one or other of the various apps to allow you to pay online, by phone or via the app.  "Parkmobile", "PayByPhone", "MiPermit" etc.  Maybe PDNPA should do that.  It doesn't involve the machine in the car park at all.

Leeds Council have even done away with some of their roadside machines altogether and put signs up to the effect that you can only pay via the app/website/whatever.  (Those particular machines were constantly being robbed and/or vandalised so you can't really blame them.)

It usually costs about 20p in commission on top of what you would otherwise put into the machine, but on the upside you usually get a text reminder (or a timer on the app) to remind you when your ticket is about to run out, and the option to put a bit more in the virtual meter and extend your time without having to go back to the car.  As I understand it the reason the Plantation machine doesn't take cards is the lack of a reliable phone signal just there, but using an app on your own phone you could always pay on your way up to the crag.

No doubt a new machine up at the Popular End would take cards.  There's little doubt in my mind that it would also get vandalised so frequently that it would entirely defeat the object for PDNPA, from a fundraising point of view, for many years to come.  I still think it was extremely short sighted of them to kill off the "Stand Up For Stanage" sticker.

 Mike505 30 Apr 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

An increase from £40 to £65 isn't fair imho.

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

The PDNP own that land but get regular reminders from the Stanage Forum etc about the gift conditions and campaigns happen when they seem to ignore mass feedback.

There was some good news at the BMC Peak area meeting.... most of the property on the estate is being renovated and used sensibly (still it would be good if the barn is converted as suggested for community/educational use).

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

There has to be an alternative for people who don't have a smartphone.

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to galpinos:

The BMC are campaigning on that.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/glover-report-landscape-review-national-parks-climbing-walking-mountain-bmc

One thing that really struck me in that BMC article was the tiny number of National Park authority agenda items on nature and landscape...... meetings were seemingly all about Governance, Finance, Planning and "Other".

 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Mike505:

> You make a fair point, though even with the best of public transport getting from Manchester to Sranage would take quite a while, and public transport isn't exactly budget friendly when trains are involved.

You're certainly not wrong about the cost, but the walk up to Stanage from Hathersage station really isn't as bad as all that.

Incidentally, there's a new bus service that started up quite recently (operated by 'Hulleys of Baslow').  It's the X57 which runs between Manchester and Sheffield via Glossop and the Snake - so opening up the possibility from Manchester of getting the bus to Moscar Lodge on the A57 and walking in to the Northern end of Stanage from there.

Post edited at 11:02
In reply to Offwidth:

There is: cash. Is it not still common to keep a bag of change in the car for, y'know, things like parking? It's not as if you have to remember to get money every time you go somewhere with a parking charge - just keep some change in the car!

 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> There has to be an alternative for people who don't have a smartphone.

As long as there is still the alternative of putting coins in the machine I don't see why, but in any case there generally is.  In most of the car parks where I use an app these days you can also pay by phone or by text.

Post edited at 11:00
 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

A significant minority of mobile phone users wouldn't know how to pay by any phone payment method, many people still don't have a mobile phone.  All parking needs to take a card or cash to be inclusive (cash being the best alternative for inclusivity... it's hardly inconvenient to keep a small amount of cash for parking in your car).

In reply to deepsoup:

> No doubt a new machine up at the Popular End would take cards.  There's little doubt in my mind that it would also get vandalised so frequently that it would entirely defeat the object for PDNPA, from a fundraising point of view, for many years to come.  I still think it was extremely short sighted of them to kill off the "Stand Up For Stanage" sticker.

I completely agree.  Yes, if you go often the full-Park Permit makes sense, but the Stanage Sticker got more money out of me than P&D at the car park ever will, as I only ever park there if the Popular End parking is full.

The thinking was no doubt "these people will all upgrade to a full-Park Permit" but I didn't and I expect most others didn't either.

Post edited at 11:15
In reply to Offwidth:

> Sometimes I just can't understand the mindset of verge parkers. Last Thursday there was a nice looking Jag almost in the ditch just a bit downhill from the Popular End parking. Why would someone buy a car like that and risk wreaking it in that way?

Company car, perchance?

In reply to Offwidth:

> There has to be an alternative for people who don't have a smartphone.

There will come a point, and we aren't far off it, that providing free basic devices and basic, low speed, capped 4G Internet access (and training at public libraries) to people who can't afford them is going to be considerably cheaper than providing alternatives to smartphone/Internet use.

I think we are not far off that point if we haven't reached it already.

Because cars cost increasingly large sums of money to run, the number of people in the set "can afford to run a car AND cannot afford to run a low-end Android smartphone on a PAYG tariff" is tending very much towards 0.

Post edited at 11:18
2
In reply to deepsoup:

> As long as there is still the alternative of putting coins in the machine I don't see why, but in any case there generally is.  In most of the car parks where I use an app these days you can also pay by phone or by text.

Depends how much it is.  Finding £7 in coins is a pain and contactless is so easy.

In reply to tehmarks:

I meant on the bit of road going towards the Scotsman's - it's a wide and flat verge for a bit just beyond the fence. That bit isn't single track although it's maybe not a full width two-way especially with the size of today's SUVs etc all over the place.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Depends how much it is.  Finding £7 in coins is a pain and contactless is so easy.

Isn't the issue with contactless payment at the Stanage car park (specifically) lack of a signal?

One thing they perhaps could do is sell one-day Stanage parking passes at local businesses in Hathersage (and maybe put a machine by the bogs selling them).  That would encourage people to spend in the local businesses (e.g. might as well fill up with fuel at the garage if you're getting your Permit there) or to stop and use the toilets there rather than the bushes at the crag.  That's how the Stickers were sold.

The bakery is a particularly popular breakfast spot for climbers, as is the Poolside - if those were both in on it obtaining one while buying your breakfast would be really easy.

And yes, bring back the Sticker.

Post edited at 11:22
In reply to Michael Hood:

Apologies, thought you meant the Popular side of the junction.

There's also frequently space at Apparent North, which also has the benefit of not having to walk up any hills to get to your Sunday bimble along the edge.

 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Finding £7 in coins is a pain

Choosing to live in the 21st century without access to a smartphone is a pain too, but if that's the hill you want to die on..

(But as I said, the services that give you the option to use an app also generally allow you to pay online, by phone or by text.  Less convenient than an app, but perfectly doable with a brick phone.)

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

I think the problem is more distrust of mobile payment technology and dislike of mobile phones... more prominent in older people with strident views and a willingness to act and complain on them (and who can usually afford to run a car). I think we are a decade off being able to ignore that group and their political influence. At the other end of the wealth and influence ladder I like the idea of giving a free mobile and training to anyone on state benefits. It won't help those who cant read though (they don't choose any hill)!! 

https://literacytrust.org.uk/parents-and-families/adult-literacy/

Post edited at 11:57
 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Isn't the issue with contactless payment at the Stanage car park (specifically) lack of a signal?

Maybe it's something else, but I'm sure it would have gone over to a card machine at the same time as Surprise View if it were possible at the time. 

Derbyshire Dales DC upgraded the machine in the P&D by the green in Baslow to also take cards/contactless a few years back, it worked for a couple of months then conked out and as far as I know (I haven't used it since the start of the pandemic) never worked again.

The National Trust use the 'PayByPhone' app at Longshaw, so if you arrive to walk in via the 'white gate' to Froggatt and find the laybys already full (and you're not an NT member) you have the option to pay by app/phone/text or to use the P&D machine there.  Likewise for Burbage South if the verges around the Fox House are all as rammed as they were the other day.

 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> A significant minority of mobile phone users wouldn't know how to pay by any phone payment method, many people still don't have a mobile phone.  All parking needs to take a card or cash to be inclusive (cash being the best alternative for inclusivity... it's hardly inconvenient to keep a small amount of cash for parking in your car).

You're just disagreeing with me because it's me here aren't you.  I was suggesting the app in addition to the machine, as you would have seen if you'd actually read my post before jumping down my throat.

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

I didn't 'jump down your throat': I think inclusion in payment is important so made a related point. Even with your obsessions with some of my posts you can't seriously think you are more important to me than the million or so adults who can't read.

 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Because cars cost increasingly large sums of money to run, the number of people in the set "can afford to run a car AND cannot afford to run a low-end Android smartphone on a PAYG tariff" is tending very much towards 0.

People in the set {"can afford to run a car" AND "can't be arsed to carry coins for the machine" AND "can't get their heads around paying online or by phone"} may find themselves strongly incentivised to learn how to pay online or by phone when they have a parking ticket to deal with.  I'm sure it gets easier with practice.

2
In reply to Offwidth:

> I think the problem is more distrust of mobile payment technology and dislike of mobile phones... more prominent in older people with strident views and a willingness to act and complain on them (and who can usually afford to run a car). I think we are a decade off being able to ignore that group and their political influence.

True.  I suppose the option to buy a one-day permit from one of the shops in Hathersage for cash would deal with that, though, no need to maintain a machine for an increasingly small (but shouty) group.

> At the other end of the wealth and influence ladder I like the idea of giving a free mobile and training to anyone on state benefits. It won't help those who cant read though (they don't choose any hill)!! 

Indeed.  It's better to give the man a means to fish than just a fish, as it goes.  They could be basic devices with basic, slow, capped access so they are used for accessing society rather than watching films and playing games, if you didn't want to erode into the commercial market for better devices and access too much.

Post edited at 12:20
 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> True.  I suppose the option to buy a one-day permit from one of the shops in Hathersage for cash would deal with that, though, no need to maintain a machine for an increasingly small (but shouty) group.

I'm not sure if it's still common now that it's so easy to pay by app etc., but a lot of local authorities used to do scratchcard style parking permits for street parking.  The idea being that you didn't need to start the meter running when buying the ticket, but could buy a few of them in advance and scratch off the appropriate time and date before leaving one in the windscreen.

Local authorities are generally very good at ignoring small but shouty groups of motorists though, it's really only large shouty groups they have a problem with.

 Hutson 30 Apr 2021
In reply to galpinos:

Agree with you re public transport.

I live in a part of London where it makes no sense to have a car and Stanage is one of the places I've climbed trad outdoors most frequently purely because it's accessible by public transport. I tend to camp at North Lees or sometimes have stayed in an airbnb in Hathersage. It is a bit of a faff and expensive especially if you can't get advance tickets but then not running a car does save a fair bit of cash and I am fortunate that I can afford to spend it on a train instead.

Mostly I've travelled from London but I've also joined one of my husband's Manchester trips to share his hotel room (while he joins Warhammer tournaments!) and get the Hope Valley train to climb, admittedly this is made easier by the hotel being within walking distance of the train station.

I don't mind the walking with a heavy pack as long as I'm not with someone who wants to march up the hill quickly.

 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

> you can't seriously think you are more important to me than the million or so adults who can't read.

Yeah, it's a bit tricky to wind them up on here though isn't it?  What a ludicrous thing to say.

Illiterate adults use phones all the time.  If you're using the NT car park for Froggatt one alternative to using the P&D machine is to call the 'PayByPhone' number on the sign and follow the verbal instructions to input your details via the keypad.  If you've used it before it 'logs you in' based on the number you're calling from so you usually don't need to enter the car reg. number, card details etc., again.

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

Yes many illiterate people use mobiles, but many don't. There are plenty of other people with genuine reasons for not using them, other than just a choice. I think historians looking back at this period of time will despair at how large numbers of people were disenfranchised by e-financial systems and how most ordinary people, let alone the scummy organisations driving the change, didn't see or care about these problems. Even the technology side is a shame, as good design can really help.

 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Hutson:

If you're a regular visitor to Manchester, the new bus service I mentioned above might be of interest to you.

https://bustimes.org/services/x57-sheffield-glossop-manchester

It runs from the Manchester coach station to Sheffield via the Snake, so you could get off at Moscar Lodge on the A57 to walk in to the Northern end of Stanage.  It also opens up the possibility of some nice linear trips.  You could work your way along Stanage and then head down the hill from the Pop. End to Hathersage to take the train back for example, or up over/around the Kinder plateau from the Snake Pass Inn ending up going back down to Edale.

Incidentally, it's a bit of a thigh-burner but there's also quite a well-trodden path heading directly up onto Bamford Edge from the back of the Heatherdene car park by Ladybower.  It isn't a PROW and crosses a few hundred metres of non-access land initially, but there don't seem to be any access issues in using it.  (Other than the bracken, towards the end of the summer.)

 peppermill 30 Apr 2021
In reply to galpinos:

Bit of a tangent but how easy is it to get into the peak without a car these days?

When I was living in Sheffield (admittedly I left in 2010......) it was very, very accessible to go climbing or walking by public transport, one of the best things about being a student there.

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to deepsoup:e

Use of the direct path to Bamford has led to complaints from the landowners; best avoided.

 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

Bummer.  Who are the landowners?  Is it the Moscar Estate all the way down the hill to Ladybower?

The bus also stops at Cutthroat Bridge*, you could walk in to Bamford from there but I guess it'd probably not be much more appealing than the schlep up from Bamford Station.

*(Ooh.  Which I just realised means Derwent Edge is a bit more accessible by public transport now.)

 Offwidth 30 Apr 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

I think there are different landowners lower down. None are happy with that path or other direct routes being used. Moscar are very obviously unhappy with CRoW and seek to maximize use of current restrictions and extend them if possible. One day some of those paths might open up... it's an interesting hillside (which you can now explore down to the edge of the fields under CRoW).

 Hutson 30 Apr 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

Thanks, I'll be making use of that service in future I suspect. There's an awful lot of places that aren't accessible by public transport at all.

 springfall2008 30 Apr 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

> No. No no no. No you don't. You really don't.

Personally I see no issue with it provided you don't block the road *shrug*.

2
 springfall2008 30 Apr 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

> There is: cash. Is it not still common to keep a bag of change in the car for, y'know, things like parking? It's not as if you have to remember to get money every time you go somewhere with a parking charge - just keep some change in the car!


The issue is how this supply of cash is refilled, cash machines only produce £10 notes and not coins. You now have to remember to take cash out, go to a shop, buy something you might not want  and ask for change etc... (banks all closed years ago).

2
 deepsoup 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

It's a weird sensation having any sympathy at all for the Moscar Estate, hare-snaring, moor-burning raptor murderers that they are, but the idea of an explosion of 'wild camping', barbeques, litter etc., around Bamford does, just about, get me there.

On the up side, I guess, grasping for a silver lining, if any landowner is going to be antagonised by such f*ckwittery it's probably better that it's them than somebody nice who might otherwise have been friendly.

I suppose if the bottom bit between the access land and the Heatherdene car park itself doesn't belong to Moscar the most likely candidate would be Severn Trent.

In reply to springfall2008:

The first time you drop your car into a ditch or onto an unseen boulder in the grass, trying to make space to pass the van coming the other way on a road that is only as wide as a single vehicle, you'll understand. That road simply is not wide enough to park on the verge, end of. And that's ignoring any pedestrians, now forced to walk in the road rather than along the verge.

In case my opinion isn't clear enough: I think it's 'ing 'ish. You can expand the contractions yourself, I'm sure. 

In reply to springfall2008:

Take out your money, go into a shop (there may well be one attached to the aforementioned ATM), buy a [packet of chewing gum/mints/biscuits/low-value goodie of choice], ask for change in useful denominations. Voila.

 timjones 30 Apr 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> >  We had one hovering around our house a while back, proper creepy and no way of know who owned it or where it came from.

> If someone did that to me I'd be terminating it with extreme prejudice.  By the same means I use for rats and squirrels.

Are we allowed to use the same technique on light aircraft, parasails and hot air balloons?

In reply to Offwidth:

> Yes many illiterate people use mobiles, but many don't. There are plenty of other people with genuine reasons for not using them, other than just a choice. I think historians looking back at this period of time will despair at how large numbers of people were disenfranchised by e-financial systems and how most ordinary people, let alone the scummy organisations driving the change, didn't see or care about these problems. Even the technology side is a shame, as good design can really help.

Yet down in Africa I saw older people that are illiterate sending voice messages with WhatsApp and paying each other pretty much exclusively on their phones, and Cote d'Ivoire (where I was) is apparently by far not at the forefront of this. It does feel a little like "first world problems" to me.

Post edited at 18:44

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