UKC

The future of climbing

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 Slackboot 03 Oct 2021

Firstly climbers scaled peaks to reach summits. Then they climbed the different faces of a mountain. Climbing on outcrops started as training for bigger things but developed into a sport in its own right. Then climbers started training on boulders as practice for bigger routes until Bouldering became a discipline of its own. Somewhere in the mix Sport Climbing came along.

Every generation of climbers seeks to make its mark by developing and pushing the boundaries of a new and previously unthought of aspect of climbing. What will the climbers of tomorrow, our children and grandchildren be climbing? How will they make their mark?

 wiwwim 03 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

Underwater climbing? (with sea level rise?).  I guess they might capture all the exhaled CO2 and make it into carbon-sink graphene chips?

 Slackboot 03 Oct 2021
In reply to wiwwim:

Or on Mars I suppose. If Elon, Jeff and Dick provide transport.

 Seriously though, to answer my own question I think the next generation will search for boulder problems that are way off the ground. The opportunities are limitless. A sport will develop where the participants have to climb hundreds if not thousands of feet to reach a small piece of rock with a desperate problem on it. These pieces of rock will become mythical because of the difficulty of access. Like The Ace (f8B) three quarters of the way up Divine Providence (ED4).

 Wainers44 03 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

All virtual. 

Each route will be drone surveyed then you pay BMC to use the app, with a headset to climb the route at home. No more polish, no queues,  no parking issues.

And no fun.

In reply to Slackboot:

It's already here. The Moonboard Masters - global online climbing events we can participate in from home.

Speedclimbing, dyno comps, and possibly single hold maxhangs or stamina/endurance events may also emerge as events in their own right (the latter two due to their use in training). 

Post edited at 09:39
 Slackboot 03 Oct 2021
In reply to Shani:

> It's already here. The Moonboard Masters - global online climbing events we can participate in from home.

> Speedclimbing, dyno comps, and possibly single hold maxhangs or stamina/endurance events may also emerge as events in their own right (the latter two due to their use in training). 

Yes but that is now. What will be happening in climbing in 20,30,40 years time? One thing is for sure. Whatever it is will have a grade.

In reply to Slackboot:

> Yes but that is now. What will be happening in climbing in 20,30,40 years time? One thing is for sure. Whatever it is will have a grade.

Looking at the UKC stats, that grade will be MVS 😂

In reply to paul__in_sheffield:

> Looking at the UKC stats, that grade will be MVS 😂

MVS? Close...oh so close! 😉

 C Witter 03 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

Indoor tndr parties. UKC will be all about swiping left.

 SouthernSteve 03 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

There will be increased pressure to reduce, adapt or stop climbing due to ecological/environmental pressure. Freedom of the hills will have a different meaning. How that is done; bouldering, single pitch, multi pitch or sport will be influenced by this more than anything I think. There may be rewilding and far more trees as well. This will also affect hillwalking, mountain biking and roadside tourists. I sometimes think the often lousy weather is the mountains best defence. As Wainers says I think we will end up paying!

For me being in the mountains rather than the physical part is the attraction and that influences my reply. 

 spenser 03 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

If you look up the business with Blue Origin suing NASA at present due to losing the Moon Lander contract I think the business going bankrupt is more likely than one of their vehicles reaching Mars:

https://www.space.com/why-blue-origin-lacks-public-support

They are going to seriously anger a lot of staff at NASA if they delay the Artemis program for long enough that it gets defunded after the next election. 

 Fergal 03 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

By 2050 the worlds population will be so lazy and obese, it will have lost the use of it's legs, just as Wall - E predicts, exercise without labour saving devices will be fround upon, climbing will be reduced to hover packs with virtual reality goggles for the not so adventurous.

 Someonelikestu 03 Oct 2021

I'm gonna say extreme downclimbing, all the old test pieces, Indian face ect, but from top to bottom.

This isn't a real thing as far as I know, but it's funny and no less absurd than the rest of our sport.

In reply to Shani:

Dyno comps have been around for ages. The French used to run oone at the Top Rock Challenge in the mid 90's, it was called the Fabtor Trophy after a French climber who died in a car crash (Fabien Mazeur?) and we ran one at Climb'01 at the NIA. There is even a Guiness World Record held by an American called Skyler Weekes, Matt Heason held it for a bit.

youtube.com/watch?v=pYKaBidUpwU&

In reply to Graeme Alderson:

> Dyno comps have been around for ages. The French used to run oone at the Top Rock Challenge in the mid 90's, it was called the Fabtor Trophy after a French climber who died in a car crash (Fabien Mazeur?) and we ran one at Climb'01 at the NIA. There is even a Guiness World Record held by an American called Skyler Weekes, Matt Heason held it for a bit.

Yeah, i remember the one at Cliffhanger. It seems they've fallen out of fashion. It'd make a good pairing with speed climbing.

 Dave Cundy 03 Oct 2021
In reply to Someonelikestu:

> I'm gonna say extreme downclimbing, all the old test pieces, Indian face ect, but from top to bottom.

> This isn't a real thing as far as I know, but it's funny and no less absurd than the rest of our sport.

Well, that might increase the scope for participation.  I'm thinking of the tombstoners at Durdle Door.....

 McHeath 04 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

> Whatever it is will have a grade.

Except for TPS. 

 George Ormerod 04 Oct 2021
In reply to McHeath:

> Except for TPS. 

Which will still have 3 😉

 henwardian 04 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

Probably sport routes so hard they are done on toprope as you could never clip the bolts. Also some other crazy person might revive that free base idea. Also it's not hard to imagine that some people might want to put up some new boulder problems with the in-vogue coordination dynos on the rock which might lead to chipping again (mainly because all the evidence points to rock not ever naturally forming something like this).

Your chronology misses out a lot of things like deep water soloing, speed climbing, aid climbing, ice climbing, dry tooling, mixed climbing and probably a few others that don't come to mind just now.

 tlouth7 04 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

Following the pattern of "things that we see as incidental to the contemporary goal" becoming the goal themselves I suspect that we will see an introduction of "artistic climbing" whereby the elegance of how you get up a given problem or route is the marker of skill. In competition this would be scored, for mere mortals there would be the joy of achieving "flow" and body control. In the same way that we currently seek out climbs with sequences that are satisfying from a puzzle-solving or technical standpoint or have great exposure, "artistic climbers" would seek out routes that allow them to achieve certain body positions or movements. A good competition problem might challenge the entrants to display one aesthetic option flawlessly, or might create opportunities for different forms of artistic expression.

Things that I imagine would be considered aesthetically pleasing might be using only heel hooks on a route, only using gastons, or keeping your hands and feet crossed. Using no bodyparts other than hands and feet and not shifting your grip on holds are of course obligatory.

 d_b 04 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

I remember an episode of the goon show involving an attempt to climb everest from the inside.

 mrphilipoldham 04 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

We’ll all have the Mammut Climbax and wonder how on earth we ever coped without it. 

 kmsands 04 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

Like the vinyl revival, maybe a return to retro gear. 'The Walk of Life' in hobnail boots with a hemp rope and pebbles for protection.

 Marek 04 Oct 2021
In reply to henwardian:

> Probably sport routes so hard they are done on toprope ...

I'm no expert on hard sport climbing, but I though the lack of top-ropes is more to do with the fact that they don't work well on very overhanging routes, rather than some vestigial ethic. I suppose someone could come up with some sort of protection system that requires no intervention from the climber, but it wouldn't be a top-rope in the current sense.

 Marek 04 Oct 2021
In reply to tlouth7:

Rather than specifying the type of moves - which don't in themselves guarantee 'flowing' climbing - you might go directly to measuring the 'flowing' nature of the climber's movements: Stick a 6-axis accelerometer on (say) their head or hips and measure how smooth their progress was up a route. Oddly enough I have such a device I built years ago (for a different reason completely, I hasten to add) which might be worth trying for a laugh next time I'm at a wall.

 Slackboot 04 Oct 2021
In reply to henwardian:

> Your chronology misses out a lot of things like deep water soloing, speed climbing, aid climbing, ice climbing, dry tooling, mixed climbing and probably a few others that don't come to mind just now.

It wasn't meant to be an exact chronology. Just an introduction to the main idea of how future generations would leave their mark. Things like ice climbing, mixed climbing and aid climbing fit into my introduction under 'Firstly climbers scaled peaks to reach summits. Then they climbed the different faces of a mountain.' 

 Lankyman 04 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

I like a cup of tea and a bun after a walk/climb. I used to love a beer after caving. I think the ultimate aim of humanity is to cut out all the silly stuff and be happy just drinking tea. We will have achieved Nirvana and be one with ourselves.

Post edited at 16:35
 Slackboot 04 Oct 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

> I like a cup of tea and a bun after a walk/climb. I used to love a beer after caving. I think the ultimate aim of humanity is to cut out all the silly stuff and be happy just drinking tea. We will have achieved Nirvana and be one with ourselves.

There is a lot of truth in that. Cups of tea and buns always taste better after climbing or caving. I have never liked booze so can't comment on that. 

In reply to Wainers44:

> And no fun.

So the old adage of 'The best climber is the one having the most fun' means it'll be a tie. 

For last place

 flatlandrich 04 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

Maybe climbing will go the way camping turned into glamping -We'll have man made, designed routes chiselled into disused quarries with five start accommodation at the bottom; bar and hot tub at the belay with shops and restaurants for those not climbing.

Or, as travel will probably be frowned upon or to expensive by then, we could have 'Total recall' type memory implants that make us think we climbed El cap solo.

 d_b 05 Oct 2021
In reply to flatlandrich:

> Or, as travel will probably be frowned upon or to expensive by then, we could have 'Total recall' type memory implants that make us think we climbed El cap solo.

Also known as Instagram.

In reply to Slackboot:

I reckon those abandoned short edges outside Sheffield will make a small comeback in about 20 years time

 TomD89 05 Oct 2021
In reply to flatlandrich:

> Or, as travel will probably be frowned upon or to expensive by then, we could have 'Total recall' type memory implants that make us think we climbed El cap solo.

How do you know you aren't currently experiencing a Total Recall implant? Perhaps this is just the filler memories leading up to the big El cap solo.

 d_b 05 Oct 2021
In reply to TomD89:

If that's the case I want my money back.

 Michael Gordon 05 Oct 2021
In reply to Someonelikestu:

> I'm gonna say extreme downclimbing, all the old test pieces, Indian face ect, but from top to bottom.>

I pity the second.

In reply to tlouth7:

>  I suspect that we will see an introduction of "artistic climbing" whereby the elegance of how you get up a given problem or route is the marker of skill.

There's at least one Frenchman who I'd say did just that. And it kind of saddens me that it's not already a thing; there's nothing as satisfying as feeling like you're moving well, at least not in my world. I think climbing (and climbers) could learn a lot from disciplines like parkour, where it's just as important to do something well (sticking the landing, eliminating inefficiency, etc) as it is to do it at all.

I'd actually like to see more of a parkour influence in the future of climbing. Not comp-style massive dyno sequences, but a more general appreciation of the art and creativity of movement on the rock rather than just aiming for pulling as hard as possible on the hardest things one can manage, however inelegant. 

In reply to Marek:

> I'm no expert on hard sport climbing, but I though the lack of top-ropes is more to do with the fact that they don't work well on very overhanging routes, rather than some vestigial ethic. I suppose someone could come up with some sort of protection system that requires no intervention from the climber, but it wouldn't be a top-rope in the current sense.

You could do this with existing industrial fixed fall arrest systems, eg the latchway.

 Slackboot 05 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

 What will the climbers of tomorrow, our children and grandchildren be climbing? How will they make their mark?

Whatever it is I don't think Johnny Dawes 'no hands climbing' will catch on. The rock just feels too good between your fingers.

In reply to Slackboot:

The trend is clearly towards more safety and harder moves - soloing -> trad -> sport -> top rope

But top rope has a problem with overhanging routes and there's also a clear trend from roped climbing to bouldering over pads.

So I reckon route climbing climbing over Bouncy Castles is the future.   We'll walk up to a route, get our uninflated bouncy castle out the rucksack and have a miniature battery powered compressor to pump it up (obviously the bouncy castle will be made from some high tech new material which is ultralight and packs down really small).

 Mike-W-99 05 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

Point 5 will have an M grade and feature in the new edition of classic rock.

 Michael Gordon 06 Oct 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

Most climbers appreciate the value of doing something well, particularly on bold routes and in mountaineering when it has a big impact on safety. From a competitive point of view I always think whether you can do something hard at all or not is a better measure than how well you can do something easy. But given how much other 'artistic' nonsense is in the Olympics, I can well imagine Artistic Climbing becoming a disclipline, though it wouldn't involve climbing routes/problems so much as a choreographed display of movement (possibly syncronised) on the wall, set to music.  

 TomD89 06 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

>  What will the climbers of tomorrow, our children and grandchildren be climbing? How will they make their mark?

I think we are already seeing more urban climbing. Mostly climbing skyscrapers, cranes, bridges etc. Sort of blends climbing and urban exploration. While Olympic indoor comps represent the modern, acceptable, sporting side of climbing; the illegal and life-threatening skyscraper summits represent the edgier flip side.

Certainly the way to increase difficulty and prestige in climbing is to climb things that are off-limits, difficult to access in one respect or another, or well known landmarks. Topping out on Windsor Castle or Big Ben would certainly be thrilling and memorable.

In reply to Slackboot:

Underground climbing

Did you ever watch the film with Glowacz and Sharma - underground sport

Ever stood on Wingfields ledge and looked at Gee Gee Rider? (https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/ingleborough-9935/gee_gee_rider-73355) - underground Trad

There is a heap of rock unclimbed down there, cavers have been quietly climbing stuff without making a drama (both free and aid), but much is left to do!

Edit: the film mentioned is "Into the light" and is free on Amazon Prime or see here: https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/episodes/into-the-light-explorers-documentaries-s03-e02

Post edited at 09:03
 Marek 06 Oct 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> ... though it wouldn't involve climbing routes/problems so much as a choreographed display of movement (possibly syncronised) on the wall, set to music.  

You mean something like this?  youtube.com/watch?v=AQALhDAHHeM&

Apologies to anyone scarred by the experience.

 colinakmc 06 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

Your harness will have a complex of airbags built into it, thus making ropes and passive protection completely obsolete. You’ll fall off when a move’s too hard or you get pumped, and just bounce down the hill.

 artif 06 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

A couple of random musings-

I think climbing at the top end will end up being so difficult that the climbers will only achieve one or two routes in their career, training for years for that one ascent.

For mere mortals we'll be doing cleaner ascents i.e human powered travel (like the recent cycling to the Classic rock routes). Wasteful means of travelling for frivolous activities will become more and more frowned upon.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Most climbers appreciate the value of doing something well, particularly on bold routes and in mountaineering when it has a big impact on safety.

But I'd say that few climbers currently think or care about the aesthetics of their movement — it comes as the natural result of being a good climber.

> From a competitive point of view I always think whether you can do something hard at all or not is a better measure than how well you can do something easy.

Climbing is a competitive sport?

 tlouth7 06 Oct 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> .....given how much other 'artistic' nonsense is in the Olympics, I can well imagine Artistic Climbing becoming a disclipline, though it wouldn't involve climbing routes/problems so much as a choreographed display of movement (possibly syncronised) on the wall, set to music.  

I was thinking more something akin to artistic gymnastics (as opposed to rhythmic gymnastics) or diving - a panel of judges scoring your performance. In this case a "routine" would be an attempt to get from bottom to top of a route or more likely a problem.

It wouldn't be a big or unimaginable step to add a style scoring element into the existing formats, perhaps it would appear as a tiebreaker or a novelty element. Then all that is required is to slowly make the problems easier until everybody tops every problem, and voila!

 flatlandrich 06 Oct 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> How do you know you aren't currently experiencing a Total Recall implant? Perhaps this is just the filler memories leading up to the big El cap solo.

Nah, If I was going to pay for a memory implant of something that would never happen, it wouldn't start with a climbing memory!!

 flatlandrich 06 Oct 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> Certainly the way to increase difficulty and prestige in climbing is to climb things that are off-limits, difficult to access in one respect or another, or well known landmarks. Topping out on Windsor Castle or Big Ben would certainly be thrilling and memorable.

Yeah, you'll have plenty of time to remember how thrilling it was while you're in prison. On the plus side you get to claim two grades higher if you had to dodge bullets while on the route. 

 Michael Gordon 06 Oct 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

> Climbing is a competitive sport?

Didn't you catch the Olympics?

In reply to Michael Gordon:

There was climbing in the Olympics!?

...oh, I do remember briefly catching something but they were using these weird plastic holds on plywood crags inside a building, and it was over in about five seconds, so I assumed I was mistaken.

(Rightly or wrongly, I generally assume 'climbing' refers to the variety practiced on natural mediums in the great outdoors unless qualified otherwise.)

In reply to Slackboot:

Minimum viable move climbing.  There will be a movement to climb a route by the minimum number of moves possible.  Special sensors in shoes and ultra thin gloves will record every move.  Climbers will have good natured competitions to see who can do something in the minimum moves possible. Each route will have an online leader board. 

Post edited at 21:52
In reply to Currently Resting:

> Special sensors in shoes and ultra thin gloves will record every move.

Thank God for Mammut!

In reply to Currently Resting:

And then there will be endless debates about what constitutes a 'move'. And we'll need VAR to double check the legitimacy of every move.

In reply to tehmarks:

> Thank God for Mammut!

Ye cannot serve God and Mammut!

 Slackboot 07 Oct 2021

And there will be some new innovation re. Chalk, sticky boots, Friends/cams to make things easier/ safer I suppose.

 Lankyman 07 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

> And there will be some new innovation re. Chalk, sticky boots, Friends/cams to make things easier/ safer I suppose.

Suction cups. Then everyone can toprope their way up Indian Face while pretending that they're leading it. And people on here will spout about how this is just as valid as the first ascent.

In reply to Slackboot:

I hope the future of rock climbing is an inclusive one, where we can all come together; sport climber, boulderer, trad dad/ mum/ gran/ gramps/ son/ daughter/ they, and decry the idiocy that is speed climbing.

In reality I think climbing will get more divided, especially as it becomes more popular and seen as an extension to gym work. Climbing IMO used to be about the lifestyle, now its about "crushing" and with the rise of social media only going to get more competitive. People will analyse videos of boulder problems looking for any slight deviation so they can shout "no ascent for you sonny jim! you used a thumb sprag that the FA didn't."

I will continue to potter along and gain enjoyment where I can. In my mind I'm John Bachar, in reality I'm just like the rest of you mere mortals.

 d_b 08 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

The future of climbing is a grid bolted Stanage.  Some people will say it is the thin end of the wedge.

 TomD89 08 Oct 2021
In reply to Boris's Johnson:

Speed climbing is my least favourite of the 'disciplines' but have no issue with it conceptually, nor do I think it has no crossover with other types of climbing. I don't think we'll see the exact same route/track exclusively moving forward, they'll probably add a variant B and variant C at some point with differing styles, increased difficulty or taller route/track. 

Footless speed climb perhaps? Build a 15m campus board and have at it.

Outside of competition speed climbing, it wouldn't be totally surprising to see people try and speed-run tough boulder and sport routes outdoors eventually for the added prestige. I'd prefer that than the idea mentioned above where we judge how gracefully someone climbed and somehow score that. If I ever see Strictly Come Climbing I'm done with this world. I can already see an elderly Adam Ondra in a glittery suit holding up a 6 after a particularly fumbly top.

Maybe you'll end up with Endurance Climbing as it's own category, like a hamster wheel with holds. You see many smaller comps hold mini-games like this that could be turned into it's own thing.

I'm sure all these thoughts are making you queasy.

Post edited at 10:39
 Slackboot 08 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

> Every generation of climbers seeks to make its mark by developing and pushing the boundaries of a new and previously unthought of aspect of climbing. What will the climbers of tomorrow, our children and grandchildren be climbing? How will they make their mark?

Reading  through the replies to this question seems to suggest that we just can't predict with much certainty what direction climbing will take. Apart from the fact that as always climbers will try to do harder moves and some will try increasingly riskier things, and there will always be ever higher grades to reflect this.

 Michael Gordon 08 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

> as always climbers will try to do harder moves and some will try increasingly riskier things, and there will always be ever higher grades to reflect this.

It will be interesting to see how trad climbing progresses in the coming decades. It seems clear that the 'next level' in the UK, whatever that might be, is going to come through top sport climbers turning their hand to trad, either producing extremely hard but safe routes or not-quite-as-hard but very serious routes. Within the UK you might envisage someone with the ability of Steve McClure or Will Bosi but with the trad head of Birkett/Dawes/etc.

In reply to tlouth7:

> Following the pattern of "things that we see as incidental to the contemporary goal" becoming the goal themselves I suspect that we will see an introduction of "artistic climbing" whereby the elegance of how you get up a given problem or route is the marker of skill. In competition this would be scored, for mere mortals there would be the joy of achieving "flow" and body control. In the same way that we currently seek out climbs with sequences that are satisfying from a puzzle-solving or technical standpoint or have great exposure, "artistic climbers" would seek out routes that allow them to achieve certain body positions or movements. A good competition problem might challenge the entrants to display one aesthetic option flawlessly, or might create opportunities for different forms of artistic expression.

I think that would be a load of bollocks.

All of these proposed attributes of "artistic climbing" are intrinsic to climbing well (and hard) already.  

 crayefish 08 Oct 2021
In reply to Someonelikestu:

> I'm gonna say extreme downclimbing, all the old test pieces, Indian face ect, but from top to bottom.

> This isn't a real thing as far as I know, but it's funny and no less absurd than the rest of our sport.

Surprisingly insightful I think!  I'd put hard cash on that bet.

 daWalt 08 Oct 2021
In reply to Marek:

thanks for that; once again the internet provides.

I just wish the guy's leg was a wee bit longer when he tried to kick the bass player in the head

 Marek 08 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

> Reading  through the replies to this question seems to suggest that we just can't predict with much certainty what direction climbing will take...

I think climbing is like weather: The best prediction about tomorrow is that it'll be much like today.

The only thing I'm reasonably confident about is that any dramatic changes are likely to be driven by 'outside' forces, e.g., TV, Olympics or other mass-entertainment industries. Competitions will become more TV friendly, i.e., more head-to-head, shorter timespan. Perhaps we might even see Strictly Come Climbing? The Great British Climb Off?

Meanwhile 99% of climbers will just carry on doing much the same as they are doing now.

 tlouth7 09 Oct 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> All of these proposed attributes of "artistic climbing" are intrinsic to climbing well (and hard) already. 

I don't really understand your point. Of course moving gracefully is part of contemporary climbing, that is why I made the prediction that it would become its own discipline. Just as climbing on steep sections of rock was an intrinsic part of early mountaineering.

Also this is not a suggestion of what I want the future of climbing to be, merely a prediction of what it could be.

 Morty 09 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

In the future it will all be about wild trad, wild bouldering and wild sport. 99% of participants will engage via virtual reality, plugged straight into the brain and delivering an experience analogous and indistinguishable from reality, most sexual encounters will be the same. The remaining 1% of climbers, going only to Stanage, will be considered non-conformist perverts. They will be shunned and shamed, forced to live in the nooks, crannies and cave of what remains of Stanage after the Great Destruction. Eventually, wild climbers will be rounded up and sterilised so that their aberrant genes do not contaminate the purity of the Obedient - a new race that exist only to make sure the petrol doesn't run out and the rich can still eat avocado. 

 fmck 09 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

Trad rock grades will start at VS as opposed to moderate. 

 john arran 09 Oct 2021
In reply to fmck:

> Trad rock grades will start at VS as opposed to moderate. 

Bloody grade creep. Gets everywhere!

 Kevster 09 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

Clucking. 

Done before, will get done again. 

 Slackboot 09 Oct 2021
In reply to Kevster:

Hmm...something to do with hens maybe? I will look it up! Ah according to the urban dictionary it is......errr..something I will probably never get the opportunity to try at my age.....well you learn something new every day!


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