UKC

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

That is SAD. Can't imagine the rationale. Who did it?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Oh for christ's sake.

Perhaps the person - for want of a better word - concerned forgot his cams that day and only had his drill...

Sheesh...

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
WTF
is this a joke? I could throw a rack at that from the ground and lace it <shakes heed>
Looks like nice climbing btw

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
ps is the rest of the venue bolted?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

The term 'sport' seems very inapt for something so unsporting and tame.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Ok (taking the fence here)
If you are a sport climber and the rest of the venue is bolted why should you be denied this route?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I wouldn't. ...for all to enjoy.....elitist.....need to introduce novices into the sport.....

All the usual crap, in fact. I'm bored of it. Take 'em out, set up a catapult station to knock off all ascentionists, whatever. Just don't ask why they're doing it, 'cos they've nothing worth listening to to say anyway.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
"All the usual crap, in fact. I'm bored of it"

I think many are bored of you.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I have heard people trying to rationalise bolting of cracks and other trad-able lines in sport areas with the line: "but no-one ever brings a trad rack here, so it might as well get bolted, as no one would do it otherwise".

If you think about it, it's actually an incredibly stupid thing to say. May I propose a list of justifications which are never acceptable to bolt climbs, even less retro:

"To give some easy but safe routes to introduce novices"
"Because no-one climbs it and it has become dirty/vegetated/forgotten"
"Because it's a quarry"
"Because it's got a sport route either side of it"
"Because there aren't many sport routes in the area"

Even in sport areas, routes should be considered on an individual basis, and people doing f*cking stupid things like bolting perfect cracks should have some 12mms resined into their nostrils.

Sam

In reply to james oswald:

Hey, another stalker! Excellent. I haven't had one of those for months.

Just clicked on your profile. Won a bet with myself - crap climber, mainly indoors. Who'da thought it?

jcm

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Surely you could still climb it in trad style though? maybe have two grades? One sport one trad? or am i being ukc-politically-incorrect by saying this?

In reply to The Green Giant: But why would you want to climb a crack by clipping bolts?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

John, John, John. Your lack of grammar has unfortunately brought down your put down from "bitingly hurtful" to just "true but deflectable".

Its usually the case that when a moron declares something in a foghorn voice, you can bank on them being a terrible climber. Climbing indoors is pretty depressing these days, what with the uptake of clowns.

In reply to Sam L:
well tbh obviously some one does...people prefere different things, the only downside i can see to an old trad route that has been boltage is that its usage would go up, slightly more polshed perhaps, oh plus the bolts may be classed as an eyesore???? But it was said above that it wasnt being used (at least i suppose not that much) so why not?

In reply to The Green Giant: Obviously some people have clipped the bolts. But why would someone actually want to? Bolts are used because they are safe pieces of protection, but so are cams and nuts - if you're climbing a crack you can lace it up, making it safe as houses and therefore there is no need for bolts.
Sam

In reply to Sam L:
Hmm I do see your point but I know someone who sport climbs and and hs never used a cam in thier life, I don't think thats bad, its just a different discipline in the sport! yer ok you could argue he's missing out on the origin of the sport, but then why arent we climbing on hobnailed boats?

In reply to The Green Giant: I know someone who boulders and doesn't know how to use a quickdraw. Should we install mats under all climbs?

In reply to Sam L:
yer but boulderers use different rock to sport and trad climbers, these two have to share rock, slighty different...

In reply to The Green Giant:

Hmm, I'm sort of getting you on this one. I don't agree with it being bolted, however, it is. So if, for the sake of arguements, I wanted to climb the route I can still choose to climb it trad stylee or sport stylee. Or does someone take a saw to the bolts?

In reply to The Green Giant: Not different. Lets say I can't jam. Am I justified in chipping my own holds? By your logic that would OK. Climbing is not about pandering to the lowest common denominator. If someone who can't use trad gear wants to climb cracks, they need to learn to use trad gear, not bolt the rock and f*ck things up for everyone else.
Sam

In reply to Sam L:
see tony has got it, honestly if i saw this i would trad climb it, especailly if i knew its history like now, but what im saying is that the person who bolted it hasnt ruined anything for you, you can still climb it trad cant you, unless s/he's put the bolts on crucual smearing points, which i doubt they have because they have to be able to climb it as well, then whats the matter?

In reply to The Green Giant:
If you get in bother and start shitting yourself you could clip one of the bolts and have a rest. You might start out with the intention of climbing it trad, but be unable to resist the security of a bolt next to your head when things start to pile up against you. As such, the ambiance of the climb is radically different to a trad climb. A lot of people feel that the possibility of instant safety detracts massively from the trad experience that they want to have.

Is that so difficult to imagine?

I can never understand that argument that goes "why don't you just climb it without clipping the bolts?". The first ascentionist didn't have that luxury, safety net, whatever you want to call it. If I want to repeat the experience of the FA as closely as I can (and bear in mind that a lot of people do still think of climbing in terms of pitting theselves and their skills against the difficulties and dangers of the route), then simply put, I can't. The presence of the bolts has taken it away. By making the route "safe to enjoy" for some, they've taken away the full trad experience for others.

The debate here is about "preserving an experience" versus "taking the line of least resistance".

In reply to The Green Giant:
In general terms, bolting a line reduces the risk and therefore eases the psychological pressure of leading it. Even electing not to use the bolts does not negate their effect entirely, as the leader is unavoidably aware that they are a possible resort in the event of desperation.

As this is clearly a safe climb anyway this effect is probably negligible for an trad leader here (though probably not for a novice). The point being that bolting a line may affect its adjectival grade when climbed trad 'ignoring' the bolts.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Very, very sad. People need to learn respect first and how to drill second.

LD

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

So charming, John! But OK for you to say, because you're 'good'?

Now go on, check mine too... 'crap climber, mainly outdoors' (saved you the bother). But at least I don't sneer at those less able than myself!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

As compared to your profile: crap climber who never climbs...
Pot and Kettle.

In reply to Serpico: My first thought was 'What a waste of perfectly good bolts that could be used somewhere useful'. My second thought was 'Like Stanage'.

Andy F

In reply to The Green Giant:

I'll forget the boats and assume you mean boots, and its because Tricounis and clinkers were invented.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I'm always struck by how well sport, trad and bouldering coexist at Dumbarton. This clearly doesn't happen elsewhere (as the picture in the OP shows). Am I just too young to remmeber the controversy or has this ethic grown up naturally? What makes it work so well at Dumby and yet fail elsewhere?

In reply to Neil Adams:

I think it's more polarised at Dumby; the sport routes follow unprotectable non-lines which would almost certainly never have appealed to trad climbers.

Somebody has clearly decided that Legaston is a sport crag, period. They'll be bolting the severes next.

Unfortunately nobody has actually answered my OP; time to name and shame and for the perpetrator(s) to try to justify their action.

In reply to Neil Adams:


Typically because of old tradders who discover the Hilti in their later years and embrace it with a bit too much passion.

In reply to Neil Adams:
What makes it work so well at Dumby and yet fail elsewhere?

Ever been to Kilnsey? Trad and sport in harmony. Admittedly it's an exception, but a good one.

Andy F

In reply to Sam L:

Because they only come to the place with a bundle of quickdraws... same in France, most people who climb in Burgundy, for example, don't possess the equipment to protect climbs. In conversations they will say they can't afford it, or can't be bothered to learn how and so on. The result is that on most bolted crags all the lines become bolted, even easy ones or ones that can be protected otherwise... the system is automatic. Driven by attitudes as expressed on this thread "Why should I be deprived...", "you can always climb by the bolts... " etc.

The mechanism is very powerful and compromise is impossible in the long term.... once hooked a junky need his drug.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: Yawn. Put another record on please Bruce.

Andy F

In reply to james oswald:
>> "All the usual crap, in fact. I'm bored of it"


As much as John's manner can grate and it's no fun never winning an argument with him... he is in this case entirely right. There will only be the same old bullshit justifications that get rolled out.

jk

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I've been trying to make the same points on other threads, It seems like some sport climbers don't care about where they bolt or what they bolt on Aberdeen sea cliffs there are bolts on some cliffs that are barely 9 meters long and most you'd be able to ab down and pre-place gear if you really wanted a safe journey up the route. Personally I'd not deface a crag more by chopping the bolts I just think before someone decides to place bolt on a project they should ask them selves is it possible to place safe gear and if the answer is yes instead of drilling expensive bolts pre place the trad gear and red point.

Also I think that climbing is split some people would quite happily take away adventure (Trad) routes and quite happily bolt for example the slabs on Shelter Stone or Creag N'Dubh Loch (Cairngorms) If we are not careful the health and safty, Human rights brigade will bolt everywhere.

Finally I'm guilty of carrying pegs in Winter some which I've placed that have not been possible to retrieve so am I a hippocrate?

In reply to jkarran:

I'm open-minded enough to believe that there may be a justification. I just havent heard it yet.

In reply to andy farnell:

And one bitterly fought over in the early years of the bolting. If you want a cliff to keep its trad' lines when the bolts start coming you need to be prepared to get in there and chop them, left unchecked they spread.

jk

In reply to andy farnell:

One could say the same to you Andy, or does it only count for other people?

In reply to jkarran: I'd be one of the first to go and chop bolts on the Kilnsey trad routes. They don't need them, they are fine without them. Trad and sport can co-exist, on the same crag, with the application of common sense and a bit of historical knowledge.

What I can't stand (or understand) is the rabid howling of the anti-bolt brigade who say all bolts are bad. The French/Germans/Spanish etc may choose to bolt everything, doesn't mean we will.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

A better example would be Malham. How many people climb Balas these days, or The Diedre? Last time I was there, both of these looked decidedly neglected.

As to why an existing route should be retro-bolted? I can't think of any valid reasons though I can think of plenty of (admittedly pathetic) excuses.

How long before there are calls to retro-bolt Balas or The Diedre "because no-one does them anymore"?

ALC

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Who is going to take them out then? Retro-bolting a protectable crack is inexcusable really. If there are sport climbs there that were first done as sport routes, fair enough, leave them and the trad lines as trad lines.

In reply to andy farnell:

Exactly. When bolts have turned up where they shouldn't have (in my case Wilton) I've gone and chopped them.
As usual there's lots of big talk on the internet and little action.

In reply to andy farnell:


But who actually chose? Do you think there was some kind of "democratic debate"? It was done by an active minority and by the nature the mechanism (safety, ambition, club activists, municipal council and land owner pressure etc) once it really started it went very quickly. It's true, as already said the tradition of crag climbing and the relatively early use of non-destructive protection methods in Britain is (was?) stronger but the forces at work are the same.

Nothing is inevitable though, it depends on the attitude of climbers to a great extent.

In reply to andy farnell:


Wasn't a criticism of you Andy, I was really just pointing out that if people don't like bolts appearing on a crag then whining about it on the interweb isn't going to get rid of them. Crags that now work as mixed venues were generally bitterly fought over by people with drills and hacksaws, not web connections.

I'm probably a fair bit more 'anti-bolt' than you since I get nothing from sport climbing (partly through choice, partly through being a weak punter) but I totally agree there's a place for it in the uk.

jk

In reply to The brainn:

I wouldn't presume that those responsible are solely 'sport climbers', experience has shown that they are usually people who started out climbing trad, have decades of experience climbing trad, and indeed still climb trad.


Scaremongering rubbish.


Yes.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

It's interesting to see that in the logbook, some of these retrobolted routes are given two entries - Sweet Revenge is 6a+ and Sweet Revenge (trad) is E1 5b.

I just don't think that the two can coexist - once the bolts are in, the E1 ceases to exist. But someone clearly thinks they can.

In reply to Martin76:

I think that just means that some people climbed it before the bolts went in.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Well there is no doubt that bolting a crack line like that in this country is totally indefensible.

But what I find more disgusting even than that, is the abhorrent ignorance of people like 'The Green Giant', who consider it feasible to 'trad' climb a bolted route.

To think that we should be bolting up our limited rock resources for the convenience of climbing wall bred muppets with no sense of climbing or history is what I find personally offensive.

I am not against bolting, but this kind of bolting represents an erosion of values at a time when there is an ever increasing influx of people coming into the sport. If anything we should be more vigilant in this day and age.

In reply to Martin76:

But it's been claimed as a trad route after the bolts went in. Clearly people are choosing to lead it on gear instead of the bolts. Which is up to them.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:


Indeed it is. But I personally wouldnt claim that as a trad lead, as the presence of the bolts reduces the level of committment, even if you dont clip them.

In reply to Removed User:


I'm surprised that you're shocked by this argument, as it does get predictably wheeled out for virtually every single retro-bolting debate on UKC since the year dot.

In reply to Removed User:


What are your views on chapel head scar ?

Some routes trad FA now bolted, some routes not bolted, some routes FA on bolts. Some of them even follow crack lines.

Not necessarily pointed at you but i don't know thw history of the crag the photo is from. I've never heard grumbles about it.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

In this case there's less commitment involved in doing it as a trad route than a sport one because it's so protectable you could effectively toprope it with a runner every foot.

In reply to biscuit:
I've never heard grumbles about it.

I meant i've never heard complaints about Chapel Head BTW

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: so what trad grade would you give this route? given the existance of the bolts.

In reply to Brendan Hanratty:
There's no such thing as a 'trad' grade, there are UK grades (E1 etc) which are commonly used for trad routes, but they can just as effectively be used for sport routes, as they were 15yrs ago.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
So who's going to put their head above the parapet and say these bolts should justifiably stay?

In reply to The brainn:

I see what you did there - the user name - the reference to health and safety and human rights- well done

http://ifyoulikeitsomuchwhydontyougolivethere.com/

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


Don't ever come climbing down here at Anstey's Cove then, it'd confuse the feck outta you. All in the same area we have sport routes with lots of bolts, sport routes with scary run-outs / high first bolts, trad routes on natural gear, trad routes where you clip bolts and place gear, and a trad route where the only gear is two bolts.

A couple of minutes scramble onto sanctuary wall and you have some of the steepest, scariest trad routes you'll ever come across.

In reply to Neil Adams:

Dunkeld, Weem. There's another two where they co exist with no problem!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Jamie, whilst i agree that bolting trad routes should be poo pooed, Legaston is a recognised sport venue (has been for decades). The VAST majority of line ar sport routes, with no obvious natural feature to follow or protect.

This route is one of the exceptions, and as such has a trad grade and a sport grade.

It is a shame that a natural line like this has been bolted, but in a location widely known and accepted as a sport venue, it was bound to happen.

As for protecting it, how many of the people complaining have actually climbed this route? I have, and seem to recall that protection is sparse, with only around 2-3 small cam placements (from memory). All are widely spaced, so any fall would most likely result in groundfall.

In reply to biscuit: My issue is not necessarily about bolting, per se.

But I am angered by the argument that we should be bolting up crags for the use of ignorant f*cks who are looking to take climbing into the main stream, making it more accessible for 'everyone' by sanitising it. They can stick to their climbing walls if they want a work out.

If you think this attitude isn't a problem you only have to read some of the common excuses for bolting e.g. the one I highlighted.

Next stop the olympics...

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:


How? If you start to fall are you going to quickly clip your rope/quickdraw into the bolt.

In reply to Serpico:

Thats also true with that bolting interval, she is not yet above the bolt she is clipped to but could clip the next bolt without going higher.

In reply to Serpico:


Nonsense. People hurt themselevs on well-protected routes all the time. Perhaps 'competence' would be a more accurate word than 'commitment'.

jcm

In reply to Scotti:

It's a lot easier to commit to a run out/ make an irreversible move when you don't know if there's any gear coming up. Bolts change that no matter what noble intentions you may leave the ground with.

In reply to Serpico:

Curious thing to say. They ceased to be used for sport routes precisely because people thought they were not as effective.

jcm

In reply to The Green Giant: You cannot climb a bolted climb traditionally, just like you cannot solo alongside a hanging rope.

In reply to davidwright:
The point I was inferring in that reply and the one I made later about 'trad grades' was that the UK grade probably wouldn't change in this instance.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Two points to make;

1. Nobody has mentioned the fact that the babe in the photo is, er, a bit of a babe. Why? What's wrong with you guys? Get with the real issues FFS!

2. Didn't they do the same with Directissima on Kilnsey years ago? I led it with ease in 1982 on tat and nuts. Why did such a jug-fest require bolts?

In reply to Removed User:


How do you know this was the case ?

Who is making this argument - other than people spouting on the interweb ?

As Serpico pointed out there is a lot of talk on both sides but very little real action. I don't believe there is a lot of bad bolting going on or many people who are actually bothered enough to go and chop if it does happen.

Without the interweb allowing sh1t stirring it wouldn't be a real issue in my opinion.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: I know who bolted Sweet Revenge and I can tell you that this dude *does* climb trad, and can climb a lot harder than most of the folk on here!

Leggy is very much a local venue and the person who bolted it has always been very open about bolting and has asked all local climbers where THEY would like to see bolts placed in the quarries.

If you look at the history of Leggy, you will see that 'the quarry was popular training ground and the extensive use of fixed protection was originally a reflection of this training aspect'
ie these harder crack lines were always climbing by clipping in situ pegs anyway.

Sweet Revenge and other cracks at Leggy have always had peg runners. Most pegs were removed from routes in 1987 and bolts placed instead and over the years more bolts have been added to certain routes to prevent people from decking out whilst climbing which was possible on quite a good few routes.

As for retro bolting. I'm not 100% certain, but the bolter was actually probably the FA (apologies to mr bolter, lol! if I'm wrong)

In reply to petestack:

I don't sneer at crap climbers. I am one. I sneer at crap, inexperienced climbers who think their ineptly expressed opinion is worth the same as those of people who've been in climbing for a long time, certainly.

jcm

In reply to The Purple Pimpernel: yeah, what is/was the story with directissima? Seems a bit out of keeping with the trad/sport harmony that andy was talking about at kilnsey. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed climbing it as a great sport route but definitely felt a little robbed of an awesome (and pretty well protected?) trad route.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Not at all curious. Many people argued against the introduction of French grades because they argued that they were less effective at describing the exact nature of the difficulties. EG: Sychophants at E4 6b and Free and Even Easier E5 6a but both given Fr7a+.

In reply to biscuit:

The fact is mid-to-low grade protectable routes do not need bolting do they. What reason is there for doing this other than to get climbing wall bred bolt clippers on them?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

What a refreshing change to hear some common sense in amongst all the usual knee-jerk reactions on here.

On the face of it this retro-bolting is fairly absurd, at least in a British context. But has anyone on this thread actually climbed there? Does anyone know what the attitude of local climbers was to it ? Was this a neglected dump that no one would travel more than 5 miles to, but now the extra traffic is keeping the routes clean ?

My guess is that when someone suggested bolting a few routes there, Mr Knee-Jerk got up and said "Well in that case you may as well bolt the whole place", so they did !

Personally, I have no problem with crags that are part sport and part trad - I've even done trad routes at Horseshoe. And I have no problems with hybrid routes. But some people do have this annoying tendency to force everything into pigeonholes

In reply to Chris the Tall: See my post and RustyNails post above. We are both local climbers to the area and climb from time to time at Leggy.

In reply to Scotti: you clip the bolts when you get scared, not when you fall

In reply to Removed User:

So you don't actually know but you are just guessing ?

I'm not having a pop at you but at the general attitude against the 'new breed ' of climbers.

Have a look at Sonya's post and you may find your answer.

Local active climbers making a local decision it seems.

In reply to SonyaD:

And? This is about ethics (or lack thereof), and not how hard someone climbs. Your implication that because someone climbs hard they can do what they wish (to a low grade route, I might add) is a pretty sh**ty one.

How wide is the crack? Is it easily protectable with a normal trad rack? Or was it completely reliant on fixed pegs?

Sam

In reply to biscuit:

Can YOU give me a viable (and different) reason for bolting mid-to-low grade protectable routes?

In reply to SonyaD:
You posted whilst I was busy composing my thoughts, and now you've ruined a perfectly good thread by introducing some reasonable background info as opposed to the usual ill-informed nonsense. Spoilsport

Fortunately, with this being UKC, your opinions will be ignored....

In reply to Sam L: Get a f*cking grip and don't read things into what I say. Someone above had asked whether the bolter climbed trad, so I replied that he did, and that he climbs hard, thus implying that he wasn't some random sport climber. If you want to make assumptions about what I write, then make sure you're assumptions arn't a load of bollocks.

I think you'll find the rest of my post, that you've failed to quote, answers any questions about ethics.

No, it's not easily protectable with a rack, crack lines at Leggy (bar a couple which are still trad) were always climbed with in situ peg runners.

The bolter is the FA, and bolting at Leggy is done with local consencus.

So, that answers Jamie's question (and yours)

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Its worth noting that Legaston is, and has for a long time, been primarily a sports climbing venue, prior to bolts it was pegs that were use. There are tradlines in the quary as well, but its really a much better sports venue than trad IMO (a couple of very good Trad routes, but a lot of the topouts are absolutely minging steep mud/grass/undergrowth - this one included). Its always a bit of a shame to see a good tradline with bolts, but I'd rather have dedicated sports climbing venues where it happens,like this one, for those who want to sports climb and keep other venues entirely bolt free. It is also ultimately a quarry, and not a particularly pleasent (lots of rock dump and landfill) one - though I do enjoy the sports climbing there.

Stuart

In reply to Chris the Tall:

LOL!! Your fun might not be spoiled quite yet. See above, I've been flamed once already now for stating things as they are. But I'll leave you to enjoy it all, I'm oot for a run!

In reply to Removed User:


Yup.
Post from Sonya D above.


I know who bolted Sweet Revenge and I can tell you that this dude *does* climb trad, and can climb a lot harder than most of the folk on here!

Leggy is very much a local venue and the person who bolted it has always been very open about bolting and has asked all local climbers where THEY would like to see bolts placed in the quarries.

If you look at the history of Leggy, you will see that 'the quarry was popular training ground and the extensive use of fixed protection was originally a reflection of this training aspect'
ie these harder crack lines were always climbing by clipping in situ pegs anyway.

Sweet Revenge and other cracks at Leggy have always had peg runners. Most pegs were removed from routes in 1987 and bolts placed instead and over the years more bolts have been added to certain routes to prevent people from decking out whilst climbing which was possible on quite a good few routes.

As for retro bolting. I'm not 100% certain, but the bolter was actually probably the FA (apologies to mr bolter, lol! if I'm wrong)


Old pegs replaced by bolts in a quarry that local climbers used as a training venue. Local consenus checked and possibly even retro-bolted by the FA.

In reply to biscuit:

Sonya,

i hope you don't mind me using your previous post that people seem to be conveniently ignoring.

Please don't shout at me as well ;0)

In reply to SonyaD:

Surely the general progression of climbing means that less use over time should be made of fixed gear, not more? There are plenty of routes in the Peak that had old pegs but now don't have. Anyway I don't have a problem with sport and trad areas per se, and this isn't a comment on the specific situation at a venue I'm unlikely to visit, I'm just raising a more general point about the overall direction of climbing as an activity.

In reply to SonyaD:

Most 'random sport climbers' I know climb far harder than most trad climbers I know, so I'm not sure I see a reason for mentioning how hard he climbed. As mentioned, how hard someone climbs is completely irrelevant. It certainly sounded to me like that was a barbed 'he's better than you lot so he must be right', so I hope you can forgive my conclusion.


Partly, but I didn't want to comment on it until I knew how protectable it was. If it was only possible on pegs, then there is at least a small justification for bolting (history of fixed gear, in a sport venue). It seems like that could be the case, but without seeing it for myself I wouldn't want to make a judgement.

I am arguing about general ethics. You say in your previous post that this is a 'local' venue. Why does that make a difference? Is that just because the ethics police might not notice? I think your answer will be something along the lines of 'all the local people were consulted and agreed'. What if everyone who climbs on Skye agreed to bolt Vulcan Wall? Does that make it OK?

Sam

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

This is more serious than I at first thought... I find myself agreeing with Bruce and Gordon. Frightening indeed.

In reply to Sam L:

The photo shows what appears to be an extremely well and easily protectable route.

In reply to Sam L: That's silly.

Skye is a mountain environment and Scotland has a tradition of ethics of not bolting in the mountains.

Leggy is an ancient and grotty quarry that the farmer (and owner) uses as his dumping ground (most folk think it's a dump. I quite like the place however, catches the evening sun wonderfully and it was my very first outdoor venue <for sport and trad!> so I have a fondness for the place)

Our strong trad ethics (and BMC/MCofS blah blah) suggest that bolting of such venues is fine, with agreement and consensus. Completely different ball game to bolting in the mountains you will find.

In reply to biscuit: So you consider 'viable' reasons as:

1) The guy who bolted it climbs hard trad

So what?

2) Local venue for local people

So its a quiet crag, out of the way. So what?

3) Fixed gear used extensively in the past

In the past better style was to eliminate aid points/fixed gear.

4) Bolts replaced pegs, then more added over the years to make it safer

So first the regression of replacing pegs with bolts. Then further regression of retroing.

5) FA retro-bolted

Age old argument of FA 'owns' the route/rock.

I don't know the route, but it would seem a peg protected E1 5b might well produce an unpegged E2 5b with minimal protection. Is that so bad?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth: It does, but I looked at some more photos of the quarry, and there are some seams which aren't protectable, so I wondered if this was the case. From the photo it does look like she's jamming, which would suggest a perfectly protectable route.
Sam

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


And herein lies the problem. We all sit here making armchair judgements ... but you can't actually see from the photo what the protection is like at all. Your comment and most others are based on assumption. What appears to be a laceable finger crack may in fact be shallow, flared and impossible to protect.

What we do know is that the route was originally done on pegs (suggesting though not proving other protection may have been scarce) and these were subsequently removed and replaced with bolts.

I quote from SonyaD (who seems to actually be in a position to comment):


May I suggest that the only people in a position to make a valid comment on this thread are those who have actually climbed the route in question and know what the natural gear is like?

In reply to Serpico:



In reply to Dr Sidehead:



So you're telling me that your anti-bolting of routes, but if you get scared on a run-out you'll use the bolt for protection?

In reply to Scotti: Your ignorance and total lack of understanding is incredible. I hope after a couple of years in the game you will have gained some experience and a better understanding of climbing on this island.

Until then would you mind piping down?

In reply to SonyaD:
Maybe I used the wrong example.

I object to the notion that because somewhere is grotty, anything can go.

New example: Dumbarton rock is a bit grotty (I've been told) is has a history of bolting. Is bolting of cracks here acceptable?

The thrust of my opinion is that it is never acceptable to bolt a protectable crack, whether it's in a quarry, on a mountain wall, a natural outcrop, or no matter how much rubbish is dumped there.

Sam

In reply to SonyaD:

Our strong trad ethics do not suggest that bolting of cracks is fine.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Does anyone actually, genuinely, really care? I mean COME ON. Is it really, really worth arguing about?

Don't like it? Don't go there and don't climb it. Not that it's likely you were going to mind.

In reply to Removed User:


I dont see your point here...

Your mid to low grade route might be someone elses hard route and equally true your hard route might be someone elses mid to low grade route. Your argument is elitest whatever way you look at it.

Are you saying it is ok to bolt "hard" protectable routes?

In reply to Removed User:

Was not my point and was Sonya answering a question someone else put.


Local consensus was reached. That sits within normally followed procedure i believe. I never said it was a local crag for local people. You did.

I agree we should all use hob nail boots and hemp ropes. Things change. Rubber boots were cheating and so was chalk amongst some. Only joking. It appears however that the climb is not easily protectable by other means as others are suggesting - who don't know the climb - so local consesus was sought as to what to do.


Got to agree you have a point here. If you're going to replace an old peg with a bolt fine but it doesn't mean you have to put more bolts in due to a possible decking situation. Replacing a peg with a bolt isn't necessarily regression is it ?

Not to me no. Top out sounds dodgy and crap though. What about a lower off at the top - or would that lead to creeping bolts as well ;0)

In reply to Removed User: Haha.... Really. Just hope you manage to sleep at night, knowing that there are a few tiny 2" diameter stainless steel disks in that unused quarry, and that whilst you are filling the crack with all you're nicely coloured wedges, you might mistakenly touch one.

In reply to Scotti: Groan.

In reply to Kid Spatula:

I would like some genuine examples of this huge influx of retro bolting that appears to be sweeping across this country as quickly as swine flu. I suspect it has happened in very few places and if dis-agreed with strongly enough they would be chopped.

These routes appear to have been first bolted from 1987 onwards. It's not this generation of 'wall bred ' climbers we should blame but the old guard.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I've climbed the route a couple of times and if someone chopped the bolts i wouldnt climb it again. For a start its not that good.

If you want to climb trad protected crack lines you dont go to Legaston. I genuinely dont see what all the fuss is about.

Cheers,
Mark M

In reply to biscuit:

Quite a few at Trow Gill, no doubt Dave Musgrove can supply details. Some were the horrible "mixed" stuff from the early to mid 1980s that had a variety of threads, sawn-off pegs etc but others were perfectly protectable trad routes that now have a line of bolts up them. The excuse probably was "everything else here is bolted and folks aren't going to do them unless they are bolted so let's bolt them".

There's quite a few other routes been retrobolted on the quiet in Yorkshire, Robin Proctor's, Blue Scar, Dib Scar to name a few. Always had my doubts about the folk over the border!

ALC

In reply to biscuit: Significant 'old guard 'bolts on free climbs
The Cad, Gogarth (now dispensed with)
Fortress Wall, High Tor (I think now dispensed with)
Satans Slip, Lundy (now dispensed with)
The odd gritstone route (now dispensed with)
PLus many others, a multiple wrong doesn't mean a right.
If I listed the routes by the 'old guard' that would have bolts in today the list would go off the page.

In reply to SonyaD:

Thanks for the clarification. It sounds like the venue has experienced a slow evolution towards more and more fixed protection, and turning a worryingly peg-protected crackline into an F-number may well have seemed logical.

I'm no fan of pegs because I do think they produce a murky middle-ground between sport and trad, and they are by definition a temporary measure. Peg-protected routes should IMHO certainly evolve into something, but it is very debatable whether a sport climb or a more bold (but clean) acceptance of the rock's challenge is best, certainly in this instance.

I havent seen the state of the top-out, but it just looks like a trad route; I'm very surprised by those who say it is hard to protect. I guess this could be the "feel" of the route that the MCofS guidelines ask us to consider.

I guess I also just quite like the idea of the rather arcahic notion of trad being in part preserved withing a sport-climbing environment. In the same way that many traditionalists are blinkered against sport, it would be good to see the happy-clippers co-existing with trad.

In reply to Kid Spatula:


Clearly a number of people do care, judging by the level of traffic on this thread.

I didnt start the thread because I'm a traditionalist zealot who would consign evry bolt to the fiery pits of Hades. I thought it was an interesting case history which would promote some debate, which in my mind is never a bad thing. It is still unusual to see a bolted crackline in the UK; I'm struggling to think of another one.

In reply to Removed User: I think the point is that it has a horrific, dirty, loose top-out.

I don't see the problem creating a fun sports route, in a generally sport-oriented crag, out of a shitty trad route.

There are hundreds and hundreds of shitty trad routes in scotland, do we need this one?

I'm too busy climbing all the good trad routes to worry about some obscure no star peg protected route.

Gordon Stainforth: I've not been, so I don't know how good/bad the portection is. I assume you are in the same situation?

In reply to Sam L:


I think you'll find that many of the protectable trad routes at Dumby have bolted belays, do you think this is ok?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

>>It is still unusual to see a bolted crackline in the UK; I'm struggling to think of another one.

I guess you've not been to Portland then?

In reply to Mark020:


Proponents of increased bolting always fall over themselves to tell us how they are active in all disciplines, as you clearly are. So why is it inconceivable that having warmed up and built confidence on a couple of sport routes, somebody might feel sufficiently psyched to go for the big E2 onsight?

In reply to fultonius offshore:

Yes, and I said quite clearly that the picture shows a climb that appears to be very protectable - that's all. I accept that it could be some kind of optical illusion and that the cracks are exceptionally blind, though there also appear to be some good horizontal breaks and pockets higher up.

In reply to fultonius offshore: Depends on the justification. I've not been there so I can't comment.
Sam

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I agree Gordon. There are lots of grotty holes in the ground in Lancashire with routes scarier than this looks complete with death on a stick top-outs and they are not bolted. As a Scot I'm ashamed of the apparent weedyness of the locals. Lancastrians are made of tougher stuff.

In reply to steve taylor:


Not yet. It's a bit outwith my normal stomping ground. I would really like to check it out, as I'm always intrigued by the many and varied ways in which our activity develops. It does seem that Portland is the standard-bearer for the fully-bolted sport sector approach, where anything and everything is bolted. I'm not as violently antagonised by this as I was in the past, but it seems a bit less soulfull and more simplistic than a mixed ethic venue.

In reply to alessandro di guglielmo:


No, but the debate has been opened (see Lester Mill...)

In reply to Al Evans:

Is this the case, Al? Has it gone completely? It was there when I did otherwise I wouldn't have done it. This was after Jim's solo of it. Sorry to hijack/digress, but I'm just interested.

In reply to jon:

I thought it was, in a manner beautifully in accord with out traditions, chopped, but it was still possible to thread its carcase with a wire if you were clever enough.

jcm

In reply to alessandro di guglielmo: I'm torn on this debate: I'm in that part of the year when I'm at Bennybeg a lot, so I'm as anti-bolt as I ever get, but last time I climbed at Legaston it was before it got cleared up, and I don't remember anything being particularly brilliant. If it doesn't rain before 4 o'clock I might go and find out what it's like now.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I know you're all having a good old argument here (on UKC? Never!!! ;-P)
but has anyone actually checked if it was Neil who bolted this line before the argument ensued? As he developed the quarry in the first place then surely it's his call if he puts bolts up? If it was him there could be any number of reasons why this has been done.

Or am I speaking out of turn again? =/

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Bolting should be banned and all bolts removed. Period.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I suggest you log onto Scottishclimbs.com and ask the same question there. The people that bolted Legaston use that website. You could also ask them how many holds they've chipped in the Angus quarries and why. If you get a sensible and polite answer you could then go on to ask them how many of the routes they bolted on the Arbroath sea cliffs can be safely protected with trad gear.

That said, I've climbed at Legaston many times and have probably done that route on bolts. I agree though that it would probably have been better to leave it unbolted the same as the brilliant and easily protectable HVS crack about 50m to left of it which was left unbolted for years but now sports a line of resin bolts. I don't get over excited about it as in my very arbitary view of the world I don't care what happens too much in some man made hole in the ground. I always regarded Legaston as a training venue which did indeed improve my trad grade. I can assure you that neither myself nor many others would have spent hours working on their stamina on No Remorse and Spandex Ballet if they had still been protected with pegs and some doubtful wires.

In reply to PeterM:

Phew! The voice of moderation...

Mick

In reply to SonyaD:

Hey Sonya - my point above is agreeing with you 100% and also pointing out that it was not only the fA but also the person who developed the whole quarry - if I am correct too. Probably still won't make any difference to some of the opinions though. ;-D

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Gordon, i suggest you go visit the venue then comment, otherwise please shut yer gob

In reply to MelH:

Whilst i appreciate the developers effort and drive to develop climbing at leggy and the surrounding area, i don't think that just because he (and his companions) did the rest of the quarry, they should be the only ones who have a call over bolting a potential trad line. I think it should be a larger community thing, but as with many things in life, it's easier to seek forgiveness than permission.

In reply to rusty_nails:

LMFAO - give me a break Adam. Where did you pull that one from? He wouldn't have gone into it as lightly as your comment suggests!!!

Anyway, when was the last time you did trad at leggie and why would you go there for trad when you got amazing trad venues all over Angus/ Aberdeenshire.

In reply to MelH:

I'm in complete agreement with everyone who has taken the trouble to contribute to this thread .. the bolting of this line was stupid as really the whole crag should have been grid bolted rendering individual line bolting unnecessary

In reply to dmhigg: My noble plan to settle this debate by going climbing at Legaston is floundering from partner drop out. Anyone up that way this evening fancy a route or two?

In reply to Ian Milward:

Now that is naughty, I think the middle of the wedge might finally be here!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Medium to large wires and cams would suffice

In reply to Sam L: thank you sam this country has a herratige and we are loosing it to the drill the climber who bolted this will never have a life your 21 so go and have an adventure regards brian

In reply to dmhigg: Would have done! Only RB's dad, a few of his pals and RB's brother are going to see Ddee Utd and er Aberdeen (I think) tonight and RB wants to go (football I ask you ffs, what have I bred!) so I have to drop her off at 7 in Ddee. Would probs be around 8 before I could make it to Leggy so not really worth it, would only give you about an hours climbing.

In reply to The Green Giant: yes

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Is it? No one ever climbed them before despite how good they were supposed to be. At least now they are clean,climbable and more importantly actually being climbed.

I wouldn't agree with the extension of this argument to somewhere like Chee Tor however - but this a a grotty quarry that is predominantly bolt protected anyway.

The same logic could also be applied to some of the never climbed, slime covered trad routes on predominantly sport crags like the Chee Cornice - they'd become popular 6c's.

In reply to Sam L:


No, you are right about the dumping, that is no justification, otherwise other quarries (Rosyth for example could well become bolted as that's a dump too <apologies to Rosyth lovers out there, lol!> that were sh*tholes could be bolted too, when it's not necessary.

To be 100% honest, it's been some time since I've been to Leggy and I've never climbed the E2 in question and don't know for sure how good the crack is for gear. But if it's anything like some of the cracks there it won't be the best. Although some of the cracks there do take gear (the Severe crack called Ego Trip for example. Almost offwidth that one) There was another E1 that was bolted, that you could get one dodgy small nut in, another Sev that was bolted (now F4 I think) as it was chossy/loose block, utterly, utterly minging and horribly loose top out with almost ground fall potential)

Now, on my VS thread when someone commented on bolting Creag Dubh because of the 'death routes' I commented that that was sacriligious. That's a different venue, with a strong tradition of scary and intimidating, not for beginners type routes.

Whereas Leggy has a strong tradition of insitu protection, for training purposes. And other than the critics on here who are bored at work more than likely and debating as they've nothing better to do, and who will never in their life actually climb at Leggy, nobody local actually cared that much about these extra routes being bolted. There is a dearth of fine, excellent quality trad climbing to be had at Ballater, Clova and miles upon miles of seacliff climbing on the coast from Angus up to Aberdeen, and Angus climbers are generally accepting that the quarries are home to bolted routes.

Arbroath seacliffs are another matter and hugely debated at the time.

There is a funny story though (how true it is I don't know)
When the HVS that Eric the Red was commenting on (Armygeddon) was bolted, I believe there was a bit of an outcry and the bolts were chopped. Discussions were had and the chopper eventually consented to the bolts being there and even put the bolts back. However, they put an extra bolt in by mistake, and now that route is a total clip up.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I had much the same thought earlier this week. The thin end of the wedge argument is long gone.

jk

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You could start an argument in an empty room...

In reply to ChrisC:

It's a grotty quarry but it had/has some excellent trad AND sport routes. The sports routes didn't get done much either before the trad routes were bolted. It's only since the crag has been recently cleaned/rebolted and publicised (again) that things have taken off.

I refer back to the OP title.

In reply to Ian Milward:

Here's a debate from UKB on retroing LPQ from this time last year, which may be enlightening.

http://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php?action=printpage;topic=8989.0

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
as with many of the crack lines at legy there wasn't much gear on it as the cracks are often incipient and shallow. Anyway there was a massive specially made peg (that had injured a few people as was very sharp) half way through the crux as it was the only gear to protect against a ground fall.

Anyway its a sport quarry I'm all for bolting all the lines in such places so everyone can make the most of the climbing there. Furthermore none of the sandstone quarries in the area are not trad based as far as I know. Personally I feel the same about portland.

In reply to CurlyStevo: God yeah, I'd forgotten about that! Heard the story of some dude who ripped his leg open after falling and gashing it on that peg!

In reply to MelH:


I'm not saying he did. I've met him once and he seems like a nice guy.

All i am saying is that because he did the rest of the quarry does not make it ok for him to bolt a trad line at his desire. it should be done through consensus, rather than just the interests of one or a small clique.

As for trad at leggy, i've been there, got the t-shirt. yes it's mostly sport, but there are a small number of decent lines.

In reply to rusty_nails:
which trad lines did you lead?

I think I soloed the vdiff and lead the severe on the very left end but thats about it. Really not a particularly inspiring trad venue imo.

In reply to SonyaD:
bah double negative in my post was supposed to be single. Anyway I guess peops got the gist.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Me and mate faffed about on some of them last year. The only one i actually enjoyed was virgin crack (pfnar pfnar...), way off to the right in the damp bay.

I have soloed the two lines furthest to the left, but they are perfect for begginers.

In reply to SonyaD:

<pedant moment>


You don't mean dearth, that would mean there isn't much, and you mean there is lots...

<end pedant moment>

In reply to rusty_nails:
Personally I'd just see them all bolted and have the quarry provide a descent range of grades for all sport climbers. It's not as if most the trad climbers in the area really care about these climbs and they rarely see ascents. But that's just my personal opinion and I don't feel particularly strongly about it.

In reply to jon:

yeah it's a slippery slope i tell ya......why don't some of the armchair pontificators on this thread go there, chop the bolts and climb it "free". It might not be as big a statement as Sonnie's ascent of the Path but hey who am I to stop people getting worked up about worthless quarries.

In reply to SonyaD:


Is it certain that learning to climb on bolts is the best way to go? Isn't there a possibility that once used to the security people will find it hard to move on, a bit like the way those who learn on climbing walls seem to, judging by the number of threads on the subject?

I would have thought that the best way of learning is to progress in technique and muscular force at the same time as in the other aspects like placing protection and the whole psychological side of dealing with exposure, risk etc.

Muscle and technique are not everything, except for sports climbers perhaps.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: you could just go up there and remove the bolts
Im sure you could then sell them on and make some money along the way.
especially if it keeps getting bolted. be quite a little earner i reckon

In reply to SonyaD: Dundee has a football team?

In reply to Morgan Woods:

I agree with you for once... Exactly, who cares about crappy quarries that no-one climbed at in the first place.

Or if, you step back a bit, let's just think about how quarries are created in the first place...

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

training as in mileage Bruce....you always seem to trot out the same old arguments against sports climbing based on the grid bolting of some poxy french crags but what about the vast majority of climbers who enjoy both trad and sport climbing....are we somehow traitors to the cause?

In reply to Wilbur:

i though we agreed on lot's of things Will....where's the love?

In reply to Bruce Hooker: Ooooooooh, I've never been 'Bruce Hookered' before :oD

Ok, I'll play.......

Firstly, please will you and Al and others like you stop this bullshit about wall climbers not understanding trad, ethics, blah blah blah and anytime something happens within the climbing world that you don't like, like bolting, and accidents, blame it on 'wall climbers'

I, and just about everyone I know learnt to climb indoors (shock, horror! Although I did have a hillwalking background) It was the middle of January when I learnt to climb and I got outside on the real stuff asap and learnt how to clip bolts *and* climb trad at the same time, learning from some dude who taught me how to place gear, led me up to HVS and had me leading straight away.

Sure, I don't agree with some folk who think it necessary to learn how to sport climb before they trad climb, but remember not everybody can afford gear and not everybody knows folk to teach them about gear placement, and not everybody is keen enough to just learn themselves as they go along. Everybody is different.

When I say Leggie is a good training venue, I don't mean training in the sense that it's an intro to beginners to climbing (although it is a good place for this as there are easy trad and sport routes)
No, what I meant that ANY sport climbing is fantastic training for the real stuff (ie trad <just my opinion of course) in that you can get loads and loads and loads of mileage all in a oner, without the faff of gear and can concentrate on the actual physicality of it and spend all evening getting yourself pumped ridiculous in a way that you just can't with trad as it's much slower.
Much like bouldering, it's also usefull for improving confidence with trad and letting you know that you *can* make moves when you're pumped silly (very useful when running it out!)

So, no I don't think clipping bolts will make it hard for folk to move on at all. If folk want to climb trad they will, and if they don't they won't. Simple as really.

In reply to Serpico:

No and the French grade is fairly high compared to the english one indicating a very safe route

In reply to dmhigg:


Dundee actually has 2 football teams, lol!

Right, I'm outa here. I'm ashamed to admit that seen as I won't have time to get outdoors this eve, I'm going to have to nip into the wall and boulder for a couple of hours <hangs head in shame>

In reply to dmhigg: PS - it's windy as get oot here and threatning rain.

In reply to Wilbur:


Careful now, or Mr Self-Righteous will be along suggesting tha you might as well bolt Millstone or Staden. "Do you want to see Master's Edge bolted, cos that's whats gonna happen"

Obviously if people read the whole of your post they'll see that you were referring to quarries that no-one climbed at, but this is UKC.....

In reply to Chris the Tall:



This is the UKClimbing.com forum where you and others are free to express your opinion.

In reply to SonyaD: You'll be tellling me there's one here in Perth next!

In reply to dmhigg: There's even one in Brechin!

In reply to SonyaD: Football teams are like bolts...once you start looking, they're everywhere. It's the thin end of the wedge, I tell you..

In reply to rusty_nails:


and I'm saying how do you know he didn't? As far as I'm aware that route has been bolted for a considerable amount of time - I know I did it last year or the year before and it was bolted anyway.

This is not a new thing - but then if any of the folks on here moaning had actually climbed there they would know that!!!!!! =P

In reply to Morgan Woods:


Vast majority? How does that work, out with the oft stated claim that most climbing in Britain is not bolted?

As I said to Andy, "the same old arguments" line applies to both sides. It's funny that you don't seem to be able to see this.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: Every wall in the country is bolted.

In reply to SonyaD:


I can see that and it could be part of the difficulty. I don't think it is a question of understanding ethics and so on it is more to do with peer group stuff. Like religious people who think that church going is normal because that's how they've been brought up... or chalk users who genuinely seem incapable of imagining a world without chalk, and yet just a very few years ago this was the case (in climbing terms)... I'm sure they really believe it when they say they sweat more... and yet is it really likely that the human race has evolved into sweatier hands in 30 or so years? Darwin wouldn't have agreed.

In reply to SonyaD:

"but remember not everybody can afford gear"

With respect Sonya, that is the singularly most appalling reason for bolts.

Cheers

In reply to Chris McDaid: I'll repeat again. These excuses always seem to end up pandering to the new generation of wall bred climbers somehow.

Can only afford limited gear, do what we used to do. Easier routes, or a bolder style as we grew more experienced and confident. I like many on here built my rack up over the years, it grew with me.

In reply to Chris McDaid:

Agreed, I've heard it often in France too... but when I started my filed out engineering nuts and a few hexes, often home made, and slings either of tape or rope off-cuts didn't cost me even as much as a set of quick draws... you only need one crab per runner too. And the cost doesn't seem to prevent people flying off "to Spain for a bit of bolt clipping" to quote a fairly common post... nor the calls to buy new ropes every few years and all the other essential gear. Of course it's not the case for all, but the difference of cost is a very poor argument.

I don't believe climbing walls are free either, although I've never been to one to find out, just going by posts on ukc.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: if bolts are placed at lester mill i for one will remove them

In reply to MelH:

You are missing my point mel. I'm not saying he did it against the local communities wishes, i'm talking in more general terms and not just this bolter.

I don't subscribe to the seemingly awe inspired respect given to First ascensionists (or first bolters), that because they got there first, it's up to them and them alone to decide what happens.

I could go and bolt the belay stances at Dunkeld, and i'm sure there would be outrage, but i'm also sure that there would also be some people happy to accept them. Just because i was the first one to do it, should i have the right to then decide that the rest of the crag should have them, and also one or two well placed bolts?

In reply to rusty_nails:

I didn't miss the point Adam - but as always you know best. Good for you.

When you get to the grade of climbing which this particular crackline offers as a trad route you go do it. The bolts won't get in the way because of where they are positioned. I onsited it as a sports route - sustained 6a climbing I would say. Happy Climbing =P

In reply to Chris McDaid: I started climbing with 1 9mil rope, 5 slings, 1 nut and a big hex, it was fine for leading easy lakeland routes. Over time we got a bit more gear. Cost is not an argument for bolting. The cost of spreading convenience climbing to the depth of the climbing experience is an argument against random bolting of everywhere or even most where.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

My word, the people who frequent this place really are extraordinary!!

let me get this right, this is a thread of currently around 185 posts from people who have mostly never even visited NE scotland, let alone sampled the delights of legaston quarry, debating the ethics and motive behind bolting 'no remorse', and discussing at length the protection opportunities available.

do people really have nothing more interesting in their lives??

for the record, i have climbed the route both pre and post bolts. it is reasonable unremarkable in both forms. i also have little interest in sport climbing, and climb trad 99% of the time.

the route was only bolted a couple of years ago, and there was some fairly thorough consultation beforehand.

is there anyone here, who is local and has ever climbed, or intends climbing the route got anything worthwhile to contribute??

keep it going though, this is armchair climbing at its best, and i'm sure will make further fascinating reading as the debate develops!!

all the best!!
Dave

In reply to dave o:



haha - I completely argee with you Dave - and I did think there would have been consultation beforehand which was the point I was trying to make!!!!

I'm only on this thread trying to stick up for the person who I'm pretty sure did the bolting! Not that I need to of course as I'm sure he could more than handle this himself.

In reply to dave o:

It is good isn't it That Jamie's a naughty naughty boy!

In reply to Bill Davidson:

I know - he's a wee rascal isn't he Bill? I told him so too!!! hahahahaha

In reply to dave o:

Och, I dunno, Dave...

I've contributed precisely one of those posts so far, but have learned that the climb's called 'Sweet Revenge'!


Yep, gripping, isn't it! :-D

In reply to Chris McDaid: : Woooooooaaaaah!! What is it with some people making incorrect assumptions about what I say?!

'With respect' please don't put words into my mouth. The thing about folk not being able to afford gear wasn't a reason for bolting any venues and I think you'll find that I never stated it was ffs! Don't put words into my mouth, I don't appreciate it thanks!

That was related to one of the reasons why people MIGHT not do trad climbing, and only climb sport on EXISTING bolts, in answer to Bruce's query about whether I thought sport climbing was a good introduction to rock climbing in general.

You've taken what I've said and put it into the wrong context completely.

In reply to Removed User: Why don't you go get a hard on somewhere else cos as far as I can see you've contributed nothing but insults and shite on this thread, and just about every other thread you reply to on UKC for that matter. What a load of pish. Again, read what I said and please tell me WHERE EXACTLY do I state in those exact words that people not being to afford gear is a reason for bolting? Or are you another person that makes assumptions about what I'm saying, puts words into my mouth, instead of taking what I say at face value.

Gggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Tw*t!

<and breath>

In reply to Bill Davidson: Lol! I wonder if Jamie's just made troll of the year?

In reply to dave o:

I've climbed the route since it was bolted and thoroughly enjoyed it. If I was really bothered about climbing the route in trad style I could still do that, but at the moment I'm really not that bothered. Leagston is predominantly a sport climbing venue, and folk that go to climb at Legaston know this and go there to sport climb. The times I go there are when the weather is dodgy, or when we've been rained off Clova, or purely to go train on enjoyable sport routes.

Personally I think the routes at Legaston are great and I enjoy climbing there. I know that Legaston is mainly a sport climbing venue and I go there to sport climb. I don't think any damage has been done by bolting the routes - it's increased the quarry's usefulness and made the routes available to more people and so it probably gets used more.

In reply to Jonny Tee 69:

Utilitarianism rules supreme, it seems, irrespective of the (nearly irreparable?) damage that is done on two scores.

In reply to SonyaD:

Simmer down pet.

It just seems to me that the arguments often wheeled out these, not by you specifically, are not the same arguments that would have been wheeled out 15 years ago.

I repeat I am not against bolting full stop. I just think eminently protectable cracks are bad sport, be they in a shitty quarry in NE Scotland or a shitty quarry in the peak.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Gordon,

Have you visited the quarry or climbed the route? do you have any idea of any of the 'ethics' of the area??

As far as I have read all the people who are familiar with the quarry, are largely in favour of the bolting. This seemed to have been confirmed by the consultation that went on before the bolts were placed.

So what is the issue??

To give you a bit more info, the quarry has also been heavily chipped in the past. A number (most?) of the routes were originally climbed 'trad' with occasional pegs. so it is possible, but on the whole unsatisfactory.

the sport routes that now exist are quite pleasant for what they are, and as a result are popular.

if there was ever a place that was designed for sport climbing, then it is legaston quarry.

have a look at the gallery and you will see what you are missing!! http://www.ukclimbing.com/photos/item.html?crag=1253 ......get yer tickets booked now!!

Cheers and happy climbing (if anyone has the time)
Dave the trad climber

In reply to dave o:

by the way, i suspect the chipping was done by the original 'trad' climbers.

how does this sit from an ethical point of view?

In reply to dave o:


never climbed there, never going to. Still allowed an opion though surely?

I do climb a bit at a well known (more so now that it has been bolted) quarry in mid-Wales. There were some trad routes there that have now been bolted which I wish they hadn't. And some fab ones that are still trad routes that I hope they never get bolts. I hope they don't get bolted in years to come just because everything else is bolted - they are great trad routes.

I would hope that people that have never climbed there and never will, would hope that they never get bolted either.
cheers
mark

In reply to Mark Westerman:

you are of course entitled to your opinion. but to make an infomed one it would be better to be familiar with the area in questio i should have thought?? from what you describe i suspect the quarry you refer to has little resemblence to our cherished legaston quarry, but i shall say no more, as i dont thik i have ever been. if i do go, i will respect the local ethics.

cheers

In reply to dave o:

Looking at the photos it doesn't, still legaston looks sort of all-right to me!

keep cranking
cheers
mark

In reply to Removed User:

Lol! I was starting to froth a bit. I'm very much a spade is a spade type and hate it when people put words into my mouth etc.
It's just that Chris mistook what I said, then you agreed with him and starting wittering about 'wall bred climbers' so it seemed to me that you were having a dig at what I said also. Sorry if that wasn't the case.
It also grates slightly when folk go on about wall bred climbers as if we were some unethical bunch who don't have a scooby about history and tradition and want to go out grid bolting left, right and centre, when that's simply not the case.

(though of course I wasn't climbing 15 years ago, so I can't make any comparison to how things were then.)




That's fair enough. I'm of the opinion that each venue (and indeed sometimes individual routes within venues) should be taken on an individual basis as regards bolting and a consensus reached as to whether a venue is more suited to trad or sport. And if 99% of routes at a venue are sport anyway, I don't see the harm in another route or two being bolted (with consencus) As long as it's within a definite sport venue and doesn't start creeping into venues that are historically trad venues, with a definite trad feel.

Mind you, I'm just about to contradict myself here <but I'm a woman so I'm allowed to do that ;oD
There is a crack line at Leggy that goes at just severe and if that were ever to be bolted it would be a sad day as that *is* a fine wee trad route.

And ugh, can't believe I'm having a debate about this, I hate bolting/ethical debates!

In reply to SonyaD:


Have you met my alter ego?

http://www.reelmovienews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/lgfp1322100-authent...

In reply to SonyaD:


Are you sure you're not saying that because you can easily onsight it on gear? Would you not say the same about Sweet Revenge if you could easily onsight that on gear?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: True, I might say the same thing about the bolted line if I had led it on gear, but if you listen to those above who have led it on gear, they think it's a pish trad route anyway.

I think it's more personal with the other route, I have fond and personal memories of it.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Nah, you're far better looking ;oX

In reply to dave o:

I've climbed a fair bit at Legaston. I don't agree with bolts beside cracks for reasons I could elaborate here, but I'll spare everybody the tedium...

In reply to SonyaD:

I didn't make incorrect assumptions about anything. I'm just saying that the quote from you're post is often trotted out as an excuse for inappropriate bolting. Personal experience of it over here in Ireland too. Thankfully, the people responsible have now seen the light

Cheers

In reply to Chris McDaid: "but remember not everybody can afford gear"

With respect Sonya, that is the singularly most appalling reason for bolts.


That's what you said above. You quoted MY words and then said that was the most appalling reason for bolts when I never even said anything about finances being a reason for bolting. Therefore, I'm sorry, but because you are quoting my words with your statement below, you are linking them both together, and taking what I said out of it's original context.

If other people you have met have wanted venues/routes bolted because they think it's too expensive otherwise, then I'd agree that's pretty pathetic. If they want to climb sport routes, there are plenty sport venues available dotted around the country. As long as you weren't trying to tar me with same brush, then that's cool.

In reply to SonyaD:

Certainly wasnt. Just used a quote from you, in the correct context, to make a point. Not to worry tho, maybe you've got seacliffs on yer mind

Cheers

In reply to SonyaD:

Ah Muckross Head. That crag is unique across the UK and Ireland. Little technique reqd there, steep juggy climbing (mostly overhanging) with gear pretty much on demand, if yer strong enough to place it. Give me a shout if yer ever over

Cheers

In reply to Chris McDaid: Steep, juggy and gear on demand sounds just my cup of tea, and it's sandstone, my favourite!

I'll need to try and persuade Andy for a trip down to Ireland sometime, though he's not keen on seacliffs either (though not as big a fearty as me obviously when it comes to them)

Yes, I'll give you a shout if we're ever down that way. And a slap for your earlier cheek

In reply to Chris McDaid: PS - Is it yourself who posts all those tales of adventure about seastack climbing, on the SC website?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

hmmmm maybe it should be soloed then to avoid the temptation.

In reply to jon:

I just assumed it had, do people still use it then?

In reply to Martin76:

Yeah, I had been 'enlightened' by this a while ago. Interesting place to seek opinions on whether to retrobolt trad routes, don't you think - ukbouldering.com

Wonder what the responses would have been like if the forum had been on here...?

In reply to SonyaD:

Nope, isn't him Sonj, cracking good reads though aren't they!!!

In reply to Ian Milward:

Just a guess - but probably a lot less rational. Why is ukb an 'interesting' choice? Some of the most reasoned, balanced and well informed discussion about the uk and climbing is located there.

The discussion Martin76 referenced is very well reasoned and covers all points of view - and crucially involves many of the people actually climbing and maintaining these places. (Who have an interest in both sides of the 'argument').

In reply to MelH:

WOOOOOOOOSH!!!

That was the sound of my argument going over your head mel.

You obviously don't get the point i am trying to make, but perhaps i am not making it as clear as it could be.

PS Onsight, not onsite.

You work 'onsite'
You 'onsight' a new route

Have a nice day, yours the pedant

In reply to rusty_nails:


Er, I think a true pedant would have to write that as "on site"...

In reply to Bill Davidson: Hey Bill, yes they're fun to read. I just thought it might have been, with all the references to sea stacks and county this and that. Is it the same person who wrote all those stories about hillwalking etc on SC a while back, the style seems a wee bitty similar.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: THe venue is described as 'The original home of Scottish sport climbing.', so I'd assume it's because at some point the local consensus was that it should be a fixed protection venue. Maybe because the sandstone there doesn't take gear well?

In reply to ChrisC:

TBF, I haven't had time to refresh myself with the entire discussion, but I don't think it fully addressed the whether the the trad routes should be bolted, though? I recall there were some expressions to the contrary? Full marks for cleaning, regearing/improving and adding new sports routes - they are very good - but why the need to bolt the trad routes as well? Hardly anyone was doing any of the routes there in recent years, because they were dirty and neglected. So are some of the routes on Chee Tor, for example. If the answer is 'To make them popular', that sets a very worrying trend, in my view. I might be wrong , but I suspect a lot of others agree.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Just about everybody i know does both trad and sport = vast majority. But I am only speaking from my own experience. We climb trad here and overseas and sport here and overseas, but if that is unusual and unrepresentative i would defer to your greater authority.

My argument is simply that each of the climbing disciplines have their place and in the pursuit of quality in each nobody is going to worry about this piece of pox in the OP....hardly controversial.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Just out of interest, what if the chap/chapess who bolted this, explained themselves to you, not that I'm sure they need to, what would you do?

I wouldn't splash my pants about it, I'm sure no one will care in a couple of years and we do have thousands of places to go climbing that suit everyone's style.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not having a go, just always wondered about all these debates. Why not find out who did it and ask them?

In reply to Wilbur:
A bit like Avon Gorge, Wintours Leap, Ilkley, Wiltons, Heptonstall, Stoney, Millstone, Lawrencefield, etc..?

In reply to Ian Milward:

I feel you might have mis-interpreted the meaning of the word crappy to suit your post.

In reply to Ian Milward:

at least the bits of it that haven't fallen down yet.

In reply to rusty_nails:

with the greatest amount of love and affection Adam - get tae f*** you pompous git.

In reply to Wilbur:

Not really. I bet they were dirty and neglected once?

In reply to SonyaD:

No it's not SNC Grove (borer of the millions who read Scottishclimbs)-
It's Iain Miller ex- Orcadian pioneer transplanted to Eire where he continues his fantastic escapades. I haven't read such entertaining tales since Si O' was around. Whatever it is he's on, I want some.

In reply to Wee Davie:

Aye except Iains are real unlike Mr O's!!! Saying that tho Si O's were a crackin good read, still going strong on his new Greenland Kayaking site! I can't say if that's a load of pish too but I have my suspicions

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Jesus! What idiot bolted that?!

In reply to Wee Davie: Aaaaahhhhh. Aye, SNC grove, that was the other person I was thinking of. I thought there were some similarities in the writing, and I used to be amused that everytime Mr SNC went out, it was always alcohol fueled and they always seemed to bump into girls of Polish/Hungarian/Cezch etc nationality (aka there was hints of bullshit) And did Norrie not put him right on a few occasions by mentioning his places/ridges etc didn't actually exist or were in the wrong place?

Anyway, the escapades of Iain Miller are fab to read, abs fab! Make me wish I enjoyed seacliff climbing. And his tale of falling on the Cobbler is completely mentalist!

In reply to Nic:

I doth my hat

In reply to MelH:

Love you too bummer x

In reply to rusty_nails:

hahahaha! :-*

I know how to settle this! How about a climb off? WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to Wee Davie:

As far as I know, he's on the burroo

Cheers

In reply to LordFlashheart:

Maybe read the thread before jumping in with both feet?

In reply to petestack:

I had. I was just trying to jumpstart the argument again.

In reply to LordFlashheart:

Good try. I thought I might get some takers....

In reply to Sam L:
i get you cheers

In reply to dave o:


So it's a "local problem for local people", is it? Nothing for the rest of us here!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

And we're still going round in circles?

In reply to Morgan Woods:



These two sentences seem to be in contradiction... unless you can be sure that you know a representative sample of the climbing population.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Quite an exchange.. Surely this is fine bolted as at a scary E1 5b it's probably beyond most coming out the wall and making the conversion to rock therefore making it climbable to the average punter. How else are they supposed to learn how to climb crack-lines?

In reply to Samuel:

...and people are calling ME a troll (incorrectly as it happens). You're virtually guarunteed a visceral response to that post!

In reply to Samuel: Now you've hooked me! I really struggle with the wall conversion argument. The trick is to drop the grade. If you're climbing 6b on a climbing wall it doesn't qualify you to lead E1 5b outside, and it's up to you to drop your grades and learn to lead outdoors. You shouldn't bolt a route to make up for your weaknesses. Can you imagine this question without the climbing wall bit: "I want to bolt this route because I'm not very good at placing gear but I want to learn to climb hard cracks".

Of course, this possibly doesn't apply to the above route.

In reply to Samuel: You tool!!

In reply to Jamie Bankhead: Now that I've rubbed the sleep from my eyes, this must be a troll...please?

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

Like Groundhog day, only funnier.

In reply to Sam L:

Sorry, I missed this comment earlier. This is what the issue is all about, albeit the route in the OP was, it appears, not the best example to cite to raise the discussion (again!). I refer to the Lorry Park situation I mentioned earlier as perhaps a better one?

In reply to dmhigg:

Me too.


But it's the other way round for me (disappointing indoor grades)!


No argument with any of that, but think that local circumstances and consensus probably do count for something here (despite some personal misgivings about bolting in many places).

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

I'm finding it curious that so many people on here are working themselves up into a lather over Sweet Revenge (a route that was originally protected by 2 pegs, and is now protected by 4(?) bolts), when the route two lines to its left (Hunt the Ratbag) was originally climbed as a bold trad lead (at E4 5c, I think) using friends in breaks for protection, but was bolted as a sport route nearly 20 years ago, I think. Similarly, the popular Flight of the Mad Magician used to be a bold E3 5c but has been F6b sport climb (without any controversy) for longer than most quarry regulars can remember.

This current fuss just highlights the ignorance about the way the quarry has been developed over the years in accordance with the wishes of most folk who climb there.

In reply to Stuart S:


I don't think anyone is getting in a lather, just replying to a thread. I suppose the original poster either saw the climb, or the photo, and thought it made a good example to discuss on a thread. The details are perhaps less important than the overall question.

Some say this was all "thrashed out" decades ago, others think that there's room for a bit more thrashing, or missed the original one (my case) or think that the way things have gone since justifies reconsidering the question (also my case).

The most violent reactions (and latherings) seem to come from the pro-bolt lobby who seem to take this a bit like the fox hunters did when their favourite "tipple" was questioned... no one is suggesting castration or anything drastic.

In reply to dave o:

thank you voice of reason ... made me laugh anyway nice observation ...

want to critique on bolts check out

Im sure there are more bolting problems abound to discuss..

259 posts!!!! bolts! Go to France there are millions of them and I love them all. Just go easy on our little craggy island, we've not got enough to go on, so lets keep it diverse

In reply to rusty_nails:

Aaargh, I know there's a smiley face.
Must resist
Must resist



Don't you doff a hat?

In reply to soveda@work: I doth my Shakespeare dissertation.

In reply to dmhigg:

Nay, Sirrah, thou doeth thy Bardic tasks.

Mayhap thou bringest to mind:

"How doth the little crocodile .. "

CJ.