In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:
> These are all popular misconceptions that get trotted out whenever we get into guidebook debates. How can something that has never been described in a guidebook before be 'repackaged'?
They are not misconceptions, they are facts: it is undeniable that there is considerable variation in how well researched guidebooks are, and I know from experience the difference that makes to the job of subsequent guidebook writers (assuming they care about getting things right). Much of the information needed for S Wales Sport has existed for some time in electronic form that can easily be "repackaged" (or "packaged", if you prefer that word); e.g. the online SWMC pages. Hypothetically, a guidebook producer could use all the grades exactly as they appear there, and save a lot of time and trouble by not questioning any of them.
Is a guidebook that covers all the sport routes in an area 'selective' in the old-fashioned sense of the word? Why do 'definitive' guides often have identical descriptions, grades and stars, across multiple editions, for entire crags, if they are being so extensively reassessed each time?
You're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I didn't say that all guidebooks of any particular type were well researched; I simply said that some guidebooks are better researched than others. I certainly didn't say - or imply - that the better researched ones were the definitives. You came up with that notion - in order to disagree with it, seemingly. Not sure what's going on there.
> Even if there were any guidebooks that were ever produced in the idyllic way you lay out (something I doubt), I can assure you that they would still have grades you disagreed with in them.
Like most sensible people, I would say that perfection is an impossible ideal. However, I have been lucky enough to work with some (largely volunteer) guidebook teams who have been very conscientious about providing accurate information, and willing to put the time in to achieve that. And regarding grades I disagree with: of course I would very likely have a few residual preferences about minor grade differences; that's not what we're talking about here.
> Have you ever done any guidebook work?
Yes. I get the impression that you assumed the answer to be no, although a quick look at my profile would have answered your question. Do you really lock horns with someone over the course of a long thread and not have a quick look at their profile? Apparently you would rather guess, and then get assertive (and actually rather patronising) based on your guesswork. Much like your procedure with the grade anomaly we have been discussing, in fact (see below).
> The UKC / Rockfax voting system is the most effective and democratic grading system ever built for routes in this country. It allows everyone to have a say and has been a major contributor to helping establish better grades since it was set up 13 years ago. It is used by all Rockfax guidebook writers and most sensible guidebook writers for other books. It isn't perfect, and adding the possibility to vote on a wider range would be an improvement, but it is still the best thing we have got and, as with most things we do, a work in progress.
Sounds grand, but this is pure sales talk. The voting system has deficiencies, the most serious of which is that the system breaks down, pretty much completely, in the case of rogue grades - those which are two or more grades out. It's not that it becomes more unreliable; it becomes completely useless. The value of seeing a gentle distribution of a few votes around 6a+/6b when you're not seeing a load of votes at 5+ is exactly zero. The system's value, by the way, is further reduced by the fact that many climbers who use the logbooks (and leave notes) don't bother with the voting. That's why it's crucial for guidebook researchers always to read the logbook notes (I'm still amazed that you needed this to be pointed out). Once the grade has then been flagged as potentially rogue, someone in the guidebook team has to go and climb the route to check it. Perhaps you call that impractical - I call it doing the job properly.
> Well based on the votes shown, the route should be 6a+. The fact you can't vote less than easy 6a+ is a problem, but the actual votes we can look at indicate mid-to-high 6a+.
Meaningless, as discussed above. Logically, you can't take a portion of data, some of which is missing, and use it to indicate anything - that's ridiculous.