UKC

I’ve noticed that a fair number of scrambles in Snowdonia have had their grades increased - presumably because UKC have taken the grades from Mark Reeves’ new guide (not yet got it but looks good!). 
 

Some of the changes seem reasonable but some are very different than the consensus reached by UKC log books. Are we starting to see grade creep here or do people genuinely think these routes are harder?

Crib Goch N ridge - grade 1 to 2 (Seems like classic grade 1 terrain to me)

Bristly ridge - 1 to 2

Penmaenbach arete - 1 to 3 (IMO much harder than grade 1)

Idwal staircase- 2 to 3

Main gully - 1 to 2 (probably deserved)

There are some others too. 

I’m pretty sure mark takes the grades from the UKC database, unless he thinks they are wildly out.

Upgrading Bristly Ridge to a bit harder than Tryfan N. Ridge or Crib Goch seems reasonable to me - grade 1.5?.

I'd agree that Crib Goch is classic Grade 1 (apart from its length which brings up the same issues as grading Tower Ridge in winter as III or IV). I've only done the Idwal Staircase in winter but if it had really been an iced up grade 3, I'm sure I wouldn't have been happy to solo it so that upgrade seems a bit of a stretch. 

aonach eagach is the best is official grade setter for Snowdonian scrambles I believe so no doubt she will be along shortly to give a ruling

I agree with Bristly Ridge going up a grade, it feels much harder than Tryfan N. Ridge or any of the main routes on Crib Goch, especially the gullies at the bottom  and they are loose as well.  Or maybe Tryfan N. Ridge is over-graded? You have to actively seek out the harder bits to make it feel like a scramble. And I've always though Y Gribbin is over-graded at grade 1 it should be 0.5 or just 'rocky walk'.

I see that my glowing achievements have been increased...

1 to 2
Bristly Ridge 2
North Ridge Crib Goch 2
Main Gully 2

First two overstated by 0.5 (gully exit, step around pinnacle near top), last one understated by 0.5 (chockstone!)

2 to 3
North Buttress Variant 3
Craig yr Ysfa 3
Idwal Staircase 3

First two about right for the wrong way I took near the start (or maybe they were actually the correct way?), last one would be about right for the continuation straight up as I couldn't even get started on it

Most seem good, surprised at N Ridge of Crib Goch to be honest, it's loose in a few sections but pretty straight forwards, I'd run it many times and never had an issue. 

I think Tryfan is grade 1 because it's easy to get caught on serious terrain. You have to know the ridge pretty well to pick the easiest line. I've been up it many times and doubt I took the same line twice and took a few pretty serious climbs a few times. 

P.S. it does seem strange to have Y Gribbin and Bristly Ridge at the same grade.

I don't think Penmaenbach Arete is a 3. A mixed group of 10 of us scrambled up it one January day when we were bored. On grade 3's I'm always using a rope and we didn't feel any need here. 

Maybe a 1/2

There is a slight issue with us not having scrambling '+' grades in our logbook system. So North Ridge (Summer) (Grade-2), Bristly Ridge (Grade-2) and Main Gully (Grade-2) are all given Grade-1+ in the book. We have taken a cautious approach and gone with Grade-2 for these in the App/UKC version because we don't have the '+' division.

I am not sure about the others but I will get Mark to comment on this thread.

Alan

I'd agree with Bristly Ridge going to grade II. I struggle a bit with scrambling grades as they seem to differ quite a bit between England, Wales and Scotland but it definitely feels considerably more committing than Crib Goch and Lech Du Spur (which I think are considered upper end of grade I?). You compare Bristly with something like Striding Edge; they're no way near the same terrain. 

Winter grades in Wales are confusing as well. I did Cyfrwy Arete last winter and it felt pretty -out there' for grade II. 

It does feel like an element of grade creep in some cases.

I've always felt that Bristly Ridge to be classic grade 1 terrain if taken by the easiest line. Just don't choose the wrong gully at the start, and even if you do, it's not that bad. It has a slightly more intimidating feel than Tryfan North Ridge but in reality is much the same. I must have been up and down it 20+ times at least, day, night, wet, dry, snow. 

Main Gully is a hard one to grade, it's all typical grade one apart from a single move at that chock stone. And even that is ok once you find the correct way of using the hold. 1 / 2 would seem logical.

Striding Edge hardy warrants a scrambling grade really. Grade 1 is pushing it. 

Idwal Staircase seems fine at grade 2. It's certainly easier than many grade 3 routes in Steve Ashton's guide - Bilberry Terrace or that ridge on Y Garn (Nantlle) for example.

It was my personal mission to tick Steve Ashton's book whilst at uni in Bangor. I never finished it and still have just a few routes to go.

I think it depends how rigidly you stick to the arete - most folk seem to miss out the hardest step making it 1/2

So as Alan has already said on the app we could not use a + grade to indicate the route was hard for the grade. As such routes that were + in guidebook became the next grade up in the app. As such the app will have some seemingly overgraded routes, but I dont think this is much of an issue, as for me as the author I prefer to err on the side of caution.

This cautionary concept felt important to me in a walking-scrambles book, as whilst rock climbing nearly everyone has a rope and a harness, so should the worse happen they will at least have a fighting chance to protect a fall. In scrambling many people choose to solo and as a result one slip is potentially a death sentence. As such I felt happier with a slight upgrade in the book for some routes, usually a + grading whereas others I might have added a whole grade.

As the author of this book, I did feel very conscious that we are mixing walking through scrambling to easy rock climbing. As such there is potential for people with less experience to be branching out to scrambling. As an author of several guidebooks to north wales I do feel I have some responsiblity to give a clear account of the route and difficulty involved. I appreciate that people will disagree with the grading or even the cautionary principle itself.

In reality this meant that if some routes felt wiggy for the grade, In that there might be an overly exposed section,  loose rock or hard scrambling involved for a route of that grade, then I upgraded them. 

In the case of this book, I did use the voted grades data in the logbooks as a guide, in some cases the number of votes was pretty low and so went instead with how I find them based on often numerous repeats, often with a range of clients. Which gives you a different persepctive of what people might find difficult or challenging. I am not say my grades are right, but they are the grades that I personally believe best represent the route.

Of course the good thing is that you can vote to down grade them in the app or logbooks and next time we will have a much broader consensus. 

So for me the looseness on NR of CC meant I wanted it to be 1+ rather than 1, the 2 is in the app only.

Again, this was 1 plus in book, as for me the top of the first gully is feels harder than Tryfan NR, even if you take the North Tower. I actually think for a novice grade 1 scrambler the North Tower on the NR of Tryfan is also 1+ or maybe even a grade 2, but thats a seperate debate.

So for me this was always a grade 2 in terms of difficulty, however I personally find it hard to justify that grade as there is really no option for leading it as the rock is so compact that it does not really take gear. So I choose to put it in at grade 3 because it is an exposed solo.

So for me the inital staircase is probably grade 2, but the buttress above this is definitely more grade 3 in my mind. 

We all stuck to the arete and I even went searching out a small blocky roof to pull over to make it a bit harder. Not a 3 and easier than the Cyfrwy Arete which I pitched the whole way. 

Having only done Bristly Ridge of those (mostly scrambled in Scotland) Grade 2 seems fair enough. There have been points in both the initial gullies I've felt uncomfortable and there's no easy bypass option once you're on the ridge itself if someone does find it a bit much.

Striding Edge deserves the grade as much for having to negotiate all the other people on there with you, all moving at different speeds or stopping to take photos.

My own view is that looseness shouldn't be a part of the overall grade so I'd keep crib goch N ridge at 1.

I thought penmaenbach arete is a 1. the crux bit is possibly a bit harder but nowhere near 3.

Idwal staircase I thought was 3 so would agree with that.

agree on bristly ridge.

I've tended to think of Striding Edge as Grade 0.5, although people have a habit of falling down the crux chimney (I once sat with one such person for a couple of hours, waiting for the MRT), so it's arguably Grade 1 if doing it the standard way, en route to Helvellyn, but only 0.5 if having been over Helvellyn first (when Swirral can be the more serious of the two if there's snow at the exit).

Penmeanbach arete might be easier than cyfwry arete, but at least there's gear on the latter. 

It is definitely a grade 2, not for the difficulty (which is similar to milestone gully so grade 1/2) but because its an enforced solo and very difficult to use to a rope to protect someone with less experience.  

I'd know id rather take a beginner up cyfwy arete or tower ridge even than penmeanbach arete  

I'm still reading the title of the thread as being a discussion about how to grade things like jumping between Adam and Eve!

Agree Nigel. In proper winter nick, many people miss out the pitch after the table gap, go past where the little pinnacle used to be, and ascend a series of ledges and short walls. Then re-join the arete at the top of the big pitch.

Ha, I’m happy for the thread discussion to go that way. 
 

The Gwynant Needle is one jump that I’m not sure I could bring myself to do.