UKC

Hi ladies and gents!

New to the forum so apologies if in the wrong place.

Ive been searching online for a few answer but can never find exactly what I want.

I would like to setup a releasable abseil with a safety line on a 3 point anchor system using 2 ropes, 1 dynamic and 1 static. Is this possible? With the use of no slings for the anchor?

The 3 anchor bolts are bolted so its just a case of setting up the ropes correctly. 

Setting up the anchor with the static line is no problem but how do I then run that same line as the abseil for the client? And then use the dynamic as the safety? Or should it be the other way around?

Cheers!

In reply to giraffeclimb:

Client?!

In reply to giraffeclimb:

If you're doing this with a client I guess you're SPA or CWAA? 

The setup you've discussed would have been covered for sure.

After you've rigged the three bolts with your static, you need to have some slack and then, on the same rope, do your tied off Italian Hitch.

Your dynamic rope is then used for the safety line.

As a slight disclaimer, if any of that doesn't make sense, or seems new to you, don't practice on clients and get someone, in person, to check what you're doing.

In reply to giraffeclimb:

What now?

Are there no rings on the bolts? Mallions? A chain?

How long is the abseil?

Who is going first?

What is the situation? Are you looking at getting down from a climb or is this just abseiling for fun?

Is your client abseiling on the static line and being lowered by you on the dynamic for safety?
 

In reply to giraffeclimb:

Fully Releasable without using any slings/rigging line, no I wouldn't say that's possible.

You could certainly use the static rope for the anchor and abseil line though, one way would be: figure of eight to one bolt then a couple of inline figure of eights to the others. Then put an alpine butterfly below these and use that as your clip in point for the dynamic saftey line on an Italian hitch. Like I said, it's not releasable though. If the client gets clothing/hair caught in the belay devise what are you going to do? Best bet in my mind would be to cut the ab rope but that's not great practise.

Does beg the question of why you don't want to use any slings/rigging line though. If you're in a position to have clients surely you have some?! I'd even say it'd be very irresponsible to risk the clients saftey for the sake of ~£30. Also, without wanting to be offensive, if you're having to ask these kind of questions, you're almost certainly not ready to be taking paying clients anywhere.

Hope that helps and stay safe! 

In reply to acer2012:

Of course it is. You'll just need plenty of screwgates.

Bring all the anchor bolts together in your chosen fashion to one point with the static. From this point put in a couple of alpine butterfly knots (one for your personal tie-in, another a little higher up for the dynamic rope on an Italian hitch).

Below all this, gather slack so the static just reaches the floor. Tie a fig 8 just below your last butterfly, add a screwgate, and then tie off the static with the releasable Italian set up.

To put it another way, imagine how you'd do it with two static ropes, and then just join then up with their spare ends! The dynamic remains the back up line only. 

 

In reply to jon:

Jeez caused mayhem with the word client, apologies for wrong word for the abseiler! Not being used as a commercial setup!!

Thanks for the advice guys!

Again let me stress I merely used the word client to indicate the abseiler, not for commercial use.

Working towards my SPA but being out here in the middle of the Drakesnberg in SA has its downfalls when it comes to getting qualified and ease of access to training.

In reply to giraffeclimb:

 

That's OK, but an (apparent) instructor who doesn't know how to set up the basics is bound to raise eyebrows!

 

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Completely agree, I just didn't want to make mine into a massive comment!

 

I'd argue that's not 'fully' releasable as you could quite conceivably run out of rope before the stuck person is at the bottom  (if they're well and truly stuck and can't un-jam/unclipped their device once their weight is on the saftey). But very minor point.

In reply to acer2012:

You're quite right - on a long abseil, it's possible that length of slack < remaining height when the jam occurs (especially as a load of the abseil rope is tied up in the anchor system).  So this set-up is fine for unweighting the static rope to fix the classic hair-in-the-abseil-device incident, but if the client has gone tharn and will not let go of a locked-off abseil device you still have a problem!  With two separate static ropes (one used for rigging anchors, the other purely as the tied-off abseil rope) you have the option of completely disconnecting the ab rope from the system.

So, OP, if you think there is a chance that your abseiler might get so scared that they utterly refuse to let go of their belay device *and* it's a long enough abseil that you won't have enough slack to get them to the ground, you might want to have a knife to hand... remember that it is traditional to hum 'Brown Girl in the Ring' by Boney M when cutting ropes

But in all seriousness, if the abseil is that long, you really do want to be doing it on a fully releasable set-up and that means two static ropes and one dynamic.  As the OP is still learning I would hope it's not that big an abseil!

In reply to giraffeclimb:

As long as your static rope is long enough it's no problem. In order to be rigged for rescue as a releasable system the length of static will need to be twice the height of the crag plus however much rope you use for rigging.

Use one end of the static to rig a central point as high as possible. Then lower the other end of the static down the cliff as the abseil line and tie that off as normal. Then you'll have a large pile of spare static rope and assuming the rope is long enough you'll be able to release the abseil line in case of an emergency.

If the static isn't long enough, using the dynamic rope to rig the anchor would still work although there will be marginally more stretch and hence risk of abrasion to the rope. As well as to reduce stretch with more distant anchors, one of the reasons people prefer to rig with static rope is durability. If regularly using dynamic rope to rig, you're likely to trash your ropes fairly rapidly and cost yourself more money in the long term. However, on a one-off basis it may make sense, although in this case the best option may be to buy another short length of static for use as a rigging rope.

HTH

In reply to giraffeclimb:

Firstly I have no experience of such a setup and following may be rubbish.

I’m not even sure I fully understand the question….I think its single ab rope releasable from anchor in case person stuck/freaks out part way down, and second rope to lower them once ab rope released? No slings.

 

Set up anchor to bolts with end of protection rope, use “master point” (poss as simple as fig 8 on bight on strand from anchors) to clip in end of ab rope using releasable knot. Be sure both ropes reach bottom by estimation, or lower both ends first. You belay rappeler using protection rope. If they get stuck you release ab rope and lower them to bottom.

 

The stretch in the dynamic rope might be useful if it is the protection rope and this ended a short distance from the bottom when unweighted.

 

Obviously don’t rely on my reply, which is partly for my own interest. There are many far more knowledgeable on these forums.

 

In reply to oldie:

I'm wrong here. If the rappeler came tight on the protection rope before reaching the bottom then there could be big problems with them being unable to continue. 

So both ropes must reach the ground when setting up, as should always be the case!

Probably there is an advantage in abbing on the the dynamic rope as if the ab rope is suddenly released there is a minimal drop before the static protection  rope comes tight ( if say 40m of dynamic were to suddenly take bodyweight then the rappeler might fall some way and even hit the ground). Others may have previously said this.

 

 

In reply to giraffeclimb:

Re: "client" versus "merely abseiler", there's still the potential to kill them, regardless of whether or not you get paid for it   :0

In reply to oldie:

 

Firstly I have no experience of such a setup and following may be rubbish.

 

Well why post !!

In reply to giraffeclimb:

Join the anchors with one end of the dynamic

With a releasable knot, attach the static to the master-point you have made

Use the rest of the dynamic for your safety line

In reply to oldie:

 

No - the standard set-up would be to abseil on the static rope and use the dynamic as the back-up.  In a group situation this reduces wear on your dynamic ropes.  Also, on a long abseil, a bouncy dynamic rope is not reassuring for nervous clients.

If something goes wrong and you need to transfer the client to the back-up, you have the opportunity to get pretty much all of their weight across by taking in firmly before you release the abseil rope from its tied-off Italian hitch.  They shouldn't move significantly as you do this.  If they happen to be very close to the ground, they would hardly be moving as they touched down.

Worth pointing out that you could choose to do this entirely on static ropes, if that's what you happened to have available - the back-up rope could easily be a static.  And you could also choose to do it entirely on dynamic - but with the caveats about wearing your ropes out and the stretch being unnerving.

 

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Thanks. Your standard setup is indeed preferable overall. I suppose actually either way of using the 2 ropes should at least be safe. 

The reason I threw the counterintuitive "don't ab on the dedicated ab rope" into the discussion was remembering an ab on a seacliff with a somewhat similar rope stretch scenario. After 1st ab on full length of stretchy half rope we used krab on end of this as an anchor for the 2nd ab for our retrievable single climbing rope. ( NOT recommending this, but no gear was left.) Despite pretensioning the system as much as possible the initial freefall sensation was exhilarating to say the least. At the time I thought if the 2nd ab had been very short we could have been hurt. A novice would certainly have been worried.

Not quite sure if you mean slowly lowering the ab rope via the Italian hitch to get all the weight gently onto the dynamic rope if necessary. I hadn't envisaged having spare ab rope at the anchor; rather for max ab length and simplicity just being able to release the ab rope (which would suddenly transfer the weight to a backup dynamic rope).

 

In reply to giraffeclimb:

Without wishing to be rude, do you really have the experience to be safely setting this up for someone inexperienced? I ask because it's a pretty simple set-up you're asking fundamental questions about, not "what's best?" but "is it possible?". Perhaps try your new skills on someone experienced first.

Ensure the line is safe and appropriate, safely accessible, free of loose rock, ledges, roofs, delicate features on climbs etc. Equalise enough bolts with the static to create a powerpoint (8/overhand knot forming loop/s independently and inextensibly fixed to 2 or more anchors), lower the other end to the floor then tie it off releaseably with an Italian hitch ensuring there is a few meters of slack you can release if needed, ideally for simplicity enough you can get the 'client' to the floor in case they're fully incapacitated or non-cooperative. Belay yourself to the powerpoint or the bolts as appropriate using the dynamic rope so you have enough freedom to safely put your 'client on belay in a safe place before approaching the edge. Ensure the, dynamic reaches the floor, anchors are nice and high to help with getting over the edge, helmets on, hair, loose clothing, straps etc are clear of the device and protect the edge/rope from abrasion. If you equalise the bolts and create the powerpoint with the dynamic instead of the static then a too-short static can be fully released which potentially simplifies matters, the downside is more stretch in the rigging but for close anchors that's no big deal.

jk