UKC

Anyone fancy collaborating on a tick list for this?

I've completed a ticklist based on UKC ratings:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=2845

I've no routes to add but for your Creag a' Bhancair list the entry for Railway Children looks like you've added a HVS 5b in Eskdale by accident.

UKC ratings are not necessarily to be trusted, anyone can add anything. Check out the route Yurma at North Berwick Law - 12 of 13 votes for one star. Then again I'd treat the guidebook with a pinch of salt too, as a lot of these routes are too recent to have much consensus. One example from personal experience, at Brin I would say Brin It On is a miles better route than Brick.

Good effort making the list though. I'm not sure anyone can help you, I don't think you can joint-moderate these things.

Nice one!

Yurma is the only one of these that I've climbed!

I don't remember it being outstanding so I'll have to go back.

There are 4* routes in the guide that have no stars on ukc, even though climbers have given 3 stars. Perhaps this is to protect the route from being overclimbed, but we're talking 8b routes here so who knows!

No it's purely that crags on UKC are user moderated, so it means nothing. It's entirely down to the person moderating the crag. Sometimes they will not have bothered to select the number of stars, or to change the number of stars from another user having added the route that way, in which case it defaults to no stars.

I would trust the guidebook more than UKC, except where there are enough user votes to suggest some kind of 'consensus' - in which case I would trust those more than the guidebook.

As an observation looking at your list, there are some amazingly unpopular Scottish sport routes at very accessible grades - are they actually not very good, are there too few climbers in Scotland for all its crags to be kept busy, or is it just that crags like Tighnabruaich are too much out of the way for most people? Climbers are willing to travel for big mountain routes etc, maybe not so much for a bit of sport cragging.

You'll find some more to add at Loch Maree Crag.

looking at the grade spread helps me understand why I've struggled to find quality sport routes in Scotland. 

I'm too weak to hop on the good ones

back to the training board I go 

Haha! Same here!

Maybe I'll spend another evening making a list of the 3+* routes in the guidebook. 

What a life I lead!

Fighting off the Vultures (6a+)

I'm surprised UKC voters only give this 2 stars.  Perhaps I was just having a good day, but I thought it was the best sports route of its grade I've done anywhere in the UK.

I've given it 3 stars in the forthcoming SMC Wired guide.

Even though consensus is clearly two? I don't want to give the impression I care all that much about this, given our discussion on another recent thread - obviously it's not all that important. I just can't quite fathom your logic.

Have you ever climbed at Sarclet? Lots of routes worth lots of stars.

No, to my shame, though I've been there and it rained. It looked like (and I'm told it is like) honorary proper rock, rather than the tedious, unnerving, samey, unaesthetic, technically dull potato (and ex-potato pocket) pulling at Moy and suchlike.

Moy is almost, though not quite, worth a visit as a last resort if rained out of the north west.

I'm comparing with sport routes of similar grade at other places, and also in comparison with other 2 star routes at Moy. Vultures is almost uniquely sustained at its grade. And any 6a+ leader will end up totally knackered, which is great for fitness but not necessarily enjoyable. So when faced with disagreeing with the UKC grade, they are less likely to do so. But if it had been 3 stars on UKC, they would have agreed with it.

What's the difference between this route and Marlina, which gets 4 stars. Obviously it's easier, but that's not a legitimate reason for downstarring. And it's conglomerate, which loses it a star, although the rock is pretty solid now. Opinions will vary (like Rob above), but I'm not taking 2 stars off because of the rock type.

Good comment!

Not sure about that, there are plenty of routes where people disagree with the given rating. And if it's 'not enjoyable' - flip me, what criteria of quality are you using?? (FWIW I wouldn't say it's not enjoyable, I generally like Moy even though the routes are a bit samey. I think Little Teaser is ace, and to be honest I've only done Vultures once, so I'm not giving my own opinion on how good it is.)

As to what's the difference to Marlina...I don't think many people would disagree, it's simply not as good (I've only done the part of Marlina shared with Hamish but that alone...). And that's nothing to do with difficulty, some 6a+ routes are just as good as the best 7c routes - though it happens to be the case in this country that they mostly go on trad gear.

Sounds like the only disagreement between us is that you don't particularly like sport climbing, and I do. But the stars have to be for someone who does like it, because you can go somewhere else when you see it's sport.

If you are getting the impression that I don't particularly like sport climbing from my final sentence, you are missing my point there - the UK has a historical trad ethic, so many of the best routes that would go in the low 6s as sport routes were climbed on trad gear many years ago.

Much as I think you can compare quality between harder and easier routes, I also think you can compare quality between sport and trad routes. Irrespective of the nature of the pro, not many of our best 6as are as good as our best E1s. That's nothing to do with my attitude to sport, it's just a legacy of our history. I would say that Moy is actually one of the best 6th grade sport crags in Britain, and it's clearly no coincidence that it's obviously unsuited to trad.

Where we actually disagree is that I don't think you have to magic a proportional representation of 3* routes into existence at every grade in every area. Especially at Moy, which is guaranteed to be popular anyway. Just call it what it is.

As a case in point, I have been using the North Wales Limestone guide a lot in the past few weeks. I think it's spot on in this regard - it reserves 3* for only the very best routes, and even though there is tons of 6th grade sport climbing in the area, only a handful of routes get more than one star. Does this mean places like Castle Inn Quarry don't continue to be popular? Not as far as I can tell.

I suppose my attitude is to err towards under-selling and over-delivering, rather than the opposite!

Would you rather climb at Ratho, than at Moy (or on conglomerate in general)?

You've also got a substantial number of three star sport routes here -  The Fin

I have, on occasion, bailing out of the NW, driven past a dry Moy, looked up at it and thought "no, can't be arsed with that crap" and driven on south. So yes, I can imagine choosing Ratho over Moy. If they set routes as dull as that conglomerate bollocks at Ratho, I'd be having words.

Life is just too short, even for some types of climbing.

I think I need more facts before I can continue this discussion.

How many times have you climbed at Moy?

How many routes have you done?

What's the easiest route you failed to on-sight?

Do you still have a nespresso machine?

Thanks

And have you done Fiesta de los Biceps at Riglos?

Once too many. That is once.

Can't remember. Effectively one; they were all the same. Probably about three or four.

6c I think. Onsighting is pure luck there, since it depends on picking potatoes and pockets at random.

Yes, but I don't use it any more. I've switched to a stove top pot - like chalk and cheese (or conglomerate and gneiss)

A pleasure.

That's funny, I often think Moy/Camel/Golspie conglomerate is about as similar to indoor climbing as real rock gets, except: there's only one route on each line so you don't have to pretend a lot of the holds don't exist, there's a better choice of footholds so more interesting route-reading, you don't get calluses from gripping nasty resin jugs, there are fewer people around and the situation is much more pleasant.

No, but I've seen photos. Looked very dull apart from the exposure, which I can get elsewhere with interesting climbing too.

I can't say I agree with that at all. Conglomerate climbing seems incredibly samey and technically dull to me, whereas, with good route setting (such as a typical Ratho masterpiece), indoor climbing can be technically varied and truly absorbing. I think the nearest outdoor sport gets to indoors is in some quarries (North Berwick springs to mind) where the holds are obvious but still provide technical challenge to use them efficiently.

 > ........there's a better choice of footholds so more interesting route-reading.

An almost infinite choice of pockets and potatoes so no sense of having to use good technique to make use of what is available!

 > .........there are fewer people around and the situation is much more pleasant.

I think I'm less likely to have to queue for a route at Ratho most evenings than on a typical weekend day at Upper Cave!

And Ratho is more pleasant than many quarries.......eh.........wait a minute........

I genuinely feel sorry for Scottish based sport-only climbers, when they travel all the way to Moy and suchlike from the central belt on a day trip ("well, it's nearer than Yorkshire"). Scottish sport is, with, in my experience, a few notable exceptions, underwhelming

You're off on one from what I said, Upper Cave isn't conglomerate and Moy isn't a quarry.

Perhaps you're comfy in your view and have no desire to challenge it, but I'd say go back up to Moy sometime you're rained out of the northwest and try one of the trickier things like The Seer - it doesn't fit your description of tedious potato pulling even remotely. It's interesting fingery technical climbing.

I am slightly inclined to agree with your statement about exclusively sport-climbing Scots...in most areas it's not the best of what's around. A fair bit of it is decent though, probably more than a lot of people realise.

Maybe life would not be as short if you spent less of it on UKC.

A quarry is still real rock (sort of........). Anyway, I would by the same argument place many rock types, including typical sport limestone closer in style to indoors than conglomerate. I mentioned Upper Cave because I perhaps wrongly thought we had moved on to talking about outdoor sport in general compared to Ratho.

Fair enough. Maybe I'll give it another go sometime. Maybe the harder route are less dull. And I concede that the repellent aesthetics (to me anyway) of the rock might have coloured my whole view of the climbing experience.

Yes, there are certainly some real gems scattered around. But I do feel though that the superb production of the SMC sport guide might mislead people - a photo and loads of stars might almost have you thinking "Wow, finally the Scottish Ceuse", only to find a scrap of rock which leaves you wondering why anybody bothered getting their drill out!

Not all necessarily 3star, but the 7aMax "Top 30" goes for variety and quality across the country.

and nobody has done them all yet...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=1082

I've written off rock types in the past too but as with any mass generalisation if you look closer they can usually be picked apart. If you choose to reopen your mind to conglomerate check out Meteora, and let us know if you'd like to stick to your guns.

In another post you suggested the setting at Ratho was good, nay better than good. Do you really think so? Genuinely interested.

I'm not hear to say Moy is all that, but neither have i been bowled over or even mildly impressed by Ratho setting.

Updated, thanks.

Double Jointed (5c) isn't on your list yet.

Just personal opinion but i'd get rid of Dogs of War at Portlethen for the Portlethen Terrier (7c+) as it's the superior route and Dogs is a link up.

Also Spandex Ballet (7a+) should be on there at legaston, No Remorse has had hold breakage and not sure how its affected the route.

Personally i'd say climb and punishment is the only 3* route at robs reed but I havent tried the 8a.

Also Tale of the Tape at Elephant would be a fairly harrowing experience for someone who's max grade is 6a+. I wouldnt have it on the list!

Friend or Foe (6c+)

Good to see this on the list as it has only had a couple of ascents but is an outstanding climb. There are a couple more routes on that slab now which I'll get on the crag page as soon as I can.

Best rock in the world Robert!

I think I would use the term "climbing medium" rather than "rock"  

Yes I genuinely think that some of the Ratho setters have elevated setting to an art form and that some of the routes are masterpieces (though obviously there will always be the odd dudd).

Having said that, I suspect that the real quality begins at 6c and above. Below this level, I think the length and steepness of the routes generally means that they tend to be too juggy to have much technical interest (again there will be exceptions, especially on the less steep areas.)

And I generally dislike the setting on the autobelays, but that may just be personal taste - if I'm going to use the autobelays for mindless endurance lapping, I want sustained cranking, not awkwardness with vicious, snatchy cruxes which are just inviting injury when thrashing away pumped.

I can't really comment on the top rope areas.

What about the speed wall setting??

But it's certainly time it was reset - it would make a great training angle for lapping endurance on autobelays.

They had some nice lapping routes on there a couple of years ago which I made use of.

That said, the Speed wall should be a speed wall for what I'd hope where obvious reasons.

It is kinda strange though that the other autobelay routes are never set with basic enduro crimp ladders for laps...

The only reason that it is a speed wall is that there is currently a fad for speed climbing because of its inclusion in the Olympics. Hopefully that reason will go away, either because the Olympics is such a success that the combined format is dropped, or because it is such a failure that all climbing is dropped*.  It could still revert to a speed wall for international competitions.

Yes, that would seem to me to be their obvious use.

* I actually hope it is a success.

thanks Robert, I think your caveats have generally covered my distaste for Ratho setting.

Auto belay 7a's that rely on awkwardness being top of the list.

I'll just have to push a little harder to discover the hidden gems.