UKC

if people continue to place trad protection in the same places on climbs year in year out, i think the rock will wear away and the p,acements will become useless, or huge.

do you agree?

In reply to tonanf:

No I do not agree.

Some rock types are harder/softer than others and so the risk is particularly varied.  Some tough rock placements are barely touched by trad gear and will only change when the cliff falls down.  Others, sandstone for example, are altered by the faintest touch and should be protected.

So my short response is that I don't agree in blanket terms, because it is so varied.

In reply to tonanf:

Interesting point..

I guess it kind of depends on the rock type, how long it would take to wear!

In reply to tonanf:

Perhaps a little bit of an overstatement, but there are some gritstone routes (High Neb Buttress (VS 4c), Tody's Wall (HVS 5a), ...) where you can see clearly defined groves from cam lobes, where the same placements have been lobbed on year after year. Not really sure what could be done about it though. Polish and damage from pro can't be eliminated entirely in high-traffic areas, sadly.

In reply to tonanf:

The solution has to be to start chipping new cracks on Stanage as the large ones widen beyond hope of usability (except for the perverts who like this kind of things and wander around with size 6 friends). Then start with IMPs and again widen the gap for future generations. Let's do this!

In reply to tonanf:

Abused marginal placements Will eventually blow (the highest wire placement on 'Tea For Two' as an example) however as mentioned above I think it depends on tbe rock type. However ripping nuts out rather than using a nut tool will probably speed up wear somewhat. Maybe hexs will be preferred in future to compensate!

In reply to BlueTotem:

There is not really new,  a good few years ago (now) I used a very worn small cam placement high on black and tans at the Roaches and the (optional) gear placement on topsail at Birchens has been getting progressively more knackered.

I think the worst I've come across is at pothole, in one severe the wire placements were obvious by polish, but so worn the gear wobbled alarmingly!

 

In reply to kipper12:

The thread on Topsail's pretty solid, I really can't see why someone would bother dragging a big cam up it!

In reply to tonanf:

I think that the most vital placements will become worn out as the years go by, particularly those most fallen on on what are, or have been seen as, hard but safe test pieces like Prophet of Doom. Having been climbing a long time I can see routes that I did just after the first ascents, such as The Go Between at Quayfoot and on Aaros at Shepherds, where the gear was not at all obvious, but are now very worn.

In reply to tonanf:

Almost all trad placements are but ephemeral features of the continuously weathering rock.

In reply to tonanf:

They'll be there for as long as I care about. Or at least most of them will. And new ones will be created.

In reply to tonanf:

And just climbing the rocks will eventually wear them away (although a lot will fall down first)

In reply to tonanf:

I get back to Tremadog once in a blue moon, and the wear on the nut placements there is considerable, to the extent that on some routes you barely need to look because they are so obvious

In reply to tonanf:

IF, then some will.  Obviously the majority of routes don't see anywhere near enough traffic.  

In reply to tonanf:

All crags will eventually be worn down, the sun will go dark, entropy will maximise and the usable energy in the universe will be gone.  Game over.

There are more immediate problems to worry about.

In reply to tonanf:

If Frankie Boyle did UKC forums I reckon his post titles would be something like this. 

In reply to tonanf:

Isn't this called inflation?

In reply to Mr. Lee:

I thought he already did under various pseudonyms.

In reply to tonanf:

Maybe we will start to see 'size creep' in gear, as placements become enlargened over time?

In reply to tonanf:

is this an argument for blanket bolting then?

 

In reply to tonanf:

I suggest you loop a sling over a big solid spike over and over again (give it a gentle tug if you must), and see how long the spike takes to wear through.

In reply to tonanf:

We're all going to need bigger nuts.

 

In reply to subtle:

Not really.  Bolts wear out pretty rapidly as well.

In reply to tonanf:

Interesting point.

In reality all rock will eventually wear away due to erosion (and new rock will form) but climbing has always had a wearing impact on the rock. It only became possible to place gear on Millstone because of the crack wear resulting from piton placements in the distant past. I personally have seen placements enlarge on places like the Roaches, Froggett, etc. mainly due to use of cams, which tend to rotate more. Indeed some routes (like TPS) are a lot more protectable now than they were in the past. Gritstone is especially vunerable as beneath the hard surface the rock can be quite soft. In some parts of Eastern Europe knotted ropes are used as protection as metal would gouge through the rock.

enevitably popular climbs will suffer from erosion either by gear placements or the act of climbing itself.

In reply to tonanf:

I think that the placements evolve with use and I'm sure that gear will evolve with them.

Consider offset cams in old peg placements as an example.

In reply to subtle:

Not really as bolt placements will wear too over time as a result of impact and weather. I have actually pulled out bolts by hand on some climbs where they or the rock or the glue holding them has corroded.

The BMC has a sobering downloadable PDF on a user guide for bolts.

Here are some articles

https://www.climbing.com/people/built-to-last/

https://www.outsideonline.com/2031641/what-happens-when-climbing-bolts-go-b...

In reply to tonanf:

In the time was doing Time for Tea on a regular basis (maybe 20 years) the runner slot below the upper crack increased in size from a Rock 6 to Rock 10 - can't imagine how big it is now!

Chris

In reply to tonanf:

Surely not "all trad placements", it depends on rock type and the number of falls they take? Placements that rarely, if ever take, a fall are not going to deteriorate. Placements taking regular falls will deteriorate. There must be thousands of placements which never take a fall?

In reply to Trangia:

With Grit it is the placing, tugging to seat and wiggling to remove that dislodges the quartz grains a few at a time,

 

Chris

In reply to spenser:

It is, but it doesn’t mean people won’t place a cam too

In reply to tonanf:

You are right and I have evidence. Lockwood's Chimney (VD) used to be a finger crack

In reply to tonanf:

Interesting point tonaf. I’ve just repeated a few routes on the grit that I haven’t done for a few years and noticed that many of the wire placements that were once good are now unusable and that some cam placements have changed with wearing out caused by repeated usage.

In reply to Trangia:

There are big worn slots on Sail Chimney (S 4a) and even some on Heather Wall (HVD 3b) I doubt they get fallen on much.

I wonder if the Czech/ German sandstone climbers had it right all along. I used to climb with a Czech girl who seemed mildly shocked that we used metal on gritstone and even climbed it in the damp.

Maybe its time we resorted to knotted ropes... or maybe gear will evolve to be kinder to the rock. Someone posted these on a previous thread:

https://www.camp4.de/restday/uforing-set.html

In reply to JHiley:

Are you sure that's climbing gear. They look a bit like kegels 

In reply to tonanf: yes definitely. Particularly on slightly softer rock. Greatest wear is on small wire placements where the second yanks them outwards after being well seated by a nervous/careful leader. On the nose of Dinas Mot the wire placements on Super Direct have deteriorated alarmingly since I first climbed it, same for routes on Reecastle and many routes in Pembroke, eg Sunlover Direct

 

In reply to aln:

Dunno how legit they are. On my phone some of them look like they have been photoshopped into cracks but its hard to tell. Maybe its a piss take, maybe they’re bomber. Maybe someone will invent something else.

In reply to spenser:

Maybe because you can place the cam instantly but a thread is more fiddly?

In reply to JHiley:

They are legit. I saw a German chap with some once

In reply to tonanf: Almscliffe Western Front has been trashed by cam placements.