UKC

Annual walls membership fees

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 duchessofmalfi 29 Dec 2017
Why do some wall charge annual membership fees?

When I pop into my local shop to buy a packet of crisps I don't have to pay Walkers a 70p crisp membership, when I go to Asda I don't have to pay £30 to get through the door, when i go swimming, skating or to the cinema I don't get stiffed for an annual charge simply for the privilege of buying a ticket, so walls owners please explain what I am paying for when you levy an annual membership charge?

I asked yesterday and the best "reason" given was "it's because of fire safety innit, we have to charge so we know who is in the building", except that this is bollocks of the highest order.

So for those walls that do (and there are six or more wall round here that don't) consider that I don't visit your venues and nor do my mates because when faced with, "it's double to get in because you've not been for a while", as a greeting we go somewhere more welcoming. I reckon to brand X that's worth 18 visits a year and to brand Y 90 visits a year, your fixed costs are, well, fixed and our visits are profit which you've lost because of your "occasional user welcome".

Anyone come up with a better reason than "because we can and we're greedy"?


4
 alx 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:
Not all business models make a good business. Life is too short and vote with your feet.
Post edited at 09:33
In reply to alx:

I think the walls think it is an annual free lunch and a good way to stiff novices on their first visit (who may never return anyway) but I think the walls are oblivious to the trade they lose (because no one let's them know they aren't coming).
 Cusco 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

Bollux it may be to add some arbitary annual fee in order to gain entry.

But at the end of the day these are commercial businesses not charities for some greater good of climbers.

How much Capex and inital investment is needed to set up a good wall with good leading bouldering and facilities? What are the bank repayment costs (even with the recent low rates)? How much money do walls make from average climbing punters if they don't have commercial franchises to lure in Joe Public? How much rent, staffing costs (even if using younger staff, minimum wage and zero hours contracts to try to minimise costs) etc etc? I don't know. Many on here will have a better clue.

Would you complain similarly if instead they added an extra amount to the per session, per month or per year fee rather than charging an additional annual membership fee on top?

If one wall gets its pricing out of sync with other local walls without being able to justify it (ie better location, better climbing facilities etc) people will vote with their feet. Which may mean additional fuel and parking costs for them to go somewhere else etc.

If there are 6 or 7 walls around you that don't charge the annual membership fee why don't you go to them instead?

The monthly cost of my local wall is similar to a chain gym membership. Only one gets me climbing fit and has a good craic.

If saving money is important, climb outside more and/or build a woody.

Personally, I think it's great to have lots of well designed, modern climbing walls which are better and more numerous than the crap, dark hovels I infrequently endured in the early 90s. So I'm willing - up to a point (which hasn't been reached yet - to stomach the price so I can climb on weekday evenings after 8 when I get back from work and when it's raining.
22
In reply to Cusco:

I think I've got all that already!

Question is "why?" (and don't they realise that it is losing them trade? probably, possibly more than the annual welcome fee makes them)
2
 trouserburp 29 Dec 2017
In reply to Cusco:

Agree it's bollocks but I guess it means occasional users are subsidising regulars

Punishes regular climbers (me) who climb at a variety of walls though
 MischaHY 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

£x a year gets you the overall cheaper entry whereas one off or very rare users pay more per session in my experience.

Depot charges £5 a year but then it's £8 a session rather than £10 which means as long as you go more than a couple of times it balances out and gets less the more you go.

In my opinion its so they can charge more for beginners, parties etc without completely pricing out their main user base.
 Michael Gordon 29 Dec 2017
In reply to Cusco:

6 or 7 local walls?! Unless you're in London is that ever going to be the case? For most of Scotland it's one main wall per main town (Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness, Fort William etc), so voting with your feet is not really a good option.
 thepodge 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

> I think I've got all that already!

> Question is "why?" (and don't they realise that it is losing them trade? probably, possibly more than the annual welcome fee makes them)

More climbers might mean more money coming in but that's not pure profit, it'll mean more staff, more facilities more shop stock...

If there's loads of other climbing walls just go there.
 Davidwi 29 Dec 2017
In reply to MischaHY:

How much! My local climbing wall cost me £3 last time I went but when I joined a few years ago I did have to pay a £2.40 joining fee.
 Michael Gordon 29 Dec 2017
In reply to Davidwi:

Tell us which wall that is and we'll all go!
 Neil Williams 29 Dec 2017
In reply to trouserburp:

> Agree it's bollocks but I guess it means occasional users are subsidising regulars

That's what I think it's effectively for. No different to anything else - if I rock up and buy an expensive peak time train ticket I'm subsidising the season ticket holders.

Other walls do the same thing differently and more positively (despite them achieving the same end), e.g. by offering memberships, "buy 10 for the price of 9" and similar.
Tomtom 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

Why? It's extra revenue.
If everyone was charged a higher rate, you'd go to a cheaper wall. Charge a membership fee, that you'll soon have forgotten about it leaving your pocket, you'll get cheaper entry and at a more comparable price to other walls.
If you charged the lower entry rate for everyone, yes you'd get the footfall, but then you're missing out revenue on the membership fees.
That's a double bonus for the walls income. Membership fee income, and extra income from those who won't pay the membership fee.

The fee is usually minimal, and will pay for itself after a handful of visits. If you're going to use it less than that in the year don't pay for it.

I'll hand over the membership fee to most walls, because it's minimal, and it brings the costs of entry down. So rather than saying 'wall A is 10 quid and wall B is 8, so we'll go to B' I can say that both are 8 quid, so I'll go to either. Even if wall b charges me 4 quid a year.

It seems regular punters continuously have the feeling that they're keeping walls open. Sorry, but you're not. It's parties, beginners, one off sessions, kids etc that keep the walls open.
 gethin_allen 29 Dec 2017
In reply to MischaHY:

I think he's having a go at the places that charge a annual fee but that's the minimum option, ie. You've no choice and it doesn't get you cheaper rates.

Saying this, I don't think I've ever been to a wall with such a fee. The worst I've seen is walls that charge an extortionate rate for their "safety assessment" which was little more than a 5 min thing to check you can put a harness on and tie in with a fig 8.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with membership deals that for an annual payment gets you reduced rates.
 Blue Straggler 29 Dec 2017
In reply to gethin_allen:

> I think he's having a go at the places that charge a annual fee but that's the minimum option, ie. You've no choice and it doesn't get you cheaper rates.

> Saying this, I don't think I've ever been to a wall with such a fee.

Wolf Mountain in Wolverhampton pretty much does this. I've only ever been twice, mostly for geographical reasons but (significantly) partly due to this. Something like £6 per year to get the members' entry rate, or pay something like £3 extra each time, as a "day member". Pricing carefully set up to convince you to get the annual one.
 Davidwi 29 Dec 2017
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Westview Preston.
 springfall2008 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

I think it's because they have to keep each member in their database which logs that they have signed the disclaimer and had their safety check. The administration of this database costs money and they want to have a way to delete people from the list who haven't been in a while. I guess if you climb there on a regular basis then a few quid membership per year is in the noise. For people who only go once they get away with either charging them a higher entry fee or a membership fee which is in some way subsiding the regular climbers entry.

Incidentally Go-Outdoors and Costco are shops that both have the same type of annual membership fee.

In reply to springfall2008:

Maintaining the database does justify the fee!

Go-outdoors is on a different game and trying (a) to discourage people from going elsewhere and (b) trying to harvest information, they have no need to register their users andthere is no H+S imperative to have members registered.

I could point out GO is a tiny minority amongst the mainstream of retailers that don't charge an annual fees to shop there. My question remains: how to the owners of these wall justify the annual fees and does it make business sense for them? It's deeply unpopular amongst their customers and discourages custom unless they've got a monopoly.

5
 Oceanrower 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

> Maintaining the database does justify the fee!

I really hope there's a n't missing from there!

 Jenny C 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

Always amuses me when at GO, that they have to get assistance to run through a full price sale when I decline to buy a discount card.

 Marek 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

... My question remains: how to the owners of these wall justify the annual fees ...

I think you're missing the point - they don't have to 'justify' their T&Cs. They are offering a service under a contact of their choice. You can take it or leave it. In theory you could offer 'your' contact but good luck with that - there are far more climbers than climbing walls so it's always going to be up to the climbing walls to decide the structure of any contract. Of course as with any business, if they get it wrong (asking either too much or too little) then their business will suffer. But it all part of managing a business.

If you think they are being greedy and making massive profits then you are at liberty to set up your own competing climbing wall with whatever T&Cs you deem fit and see where the customers go. Perhaps you too will make massive profits - perhaps not - but the choice is yours. At worst you'll get an interesting (although not cheap) education in economics and business management.

5
 Offwidth 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

28 likes for your post so far... god how depressing. It's just a pretty standard pricing policy and one that favours the regulars. In my view nearly every dedicated climbing wall I've ever been too was too cheap and in the very best they then have to pay talented staff too little for sometimes outstanding work. Walk away from bargain pricing becauce of an annual fee? Never ceases to amaze me how some climbers would use their meaness to cut of their nose to spite their face.

Wishing a happy and prosperous new year to all the staff in the fabulous walls I've enjoyed over the years, especially those in Yorkshire and the East Midlands where I'm most regular. Just smile and remember the stupid level of meaness in climbing is partly historical... one day it may decline. From what I see most customers seem to be pretty happy, despite some of the misery guts on this and other UKC wall threads.
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 Postmanpat 29 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

If I could give you multiple "likes " I would. Unbelievable the whinging from people who have never had the nouse or balls to run a small business.
19
 Mr. Lee 29 Dec 2017
In reply to springfall2008:

> I think it's because they have to keep each member in their database which logs that they have signed the disclaimer and had their safety check. The administration of this database costs money and they want to have a way to delete people from the list who haven't been in a while.

I've seen this reason come up before on these forums and to be honest I think it's bull***t. Once I've done the disclaimer and safety check I've done it. There's no reason to delete me at a later date if I haven't been for a while. That's just double the admin when they randomly turn up again. Plus the marketing department probably isn't going to be too happy if all the non-attenders' details are deleted. Unless there is a change in the disclaimer then I can't see the justification along these lines. I've never signed amended terms to a disclaimer. A lot of the paperwork seems pretty standard format between walls anyway.

> I guess if you climb there on a regular basis then a few quid membership per year is in the noise. For people who only go once they get away with either charging them a higher entry fee or a membership fee which is in some way subsiding the regular climbers entry.

I suspect most people view the regular entry fee as being the most important one. At the start of the year there's probably a general over optimism with regards attendance. It's therefore probably much easier for walls to increase prices using a one-off annual charge I suspect rather than increase the general entry price.
1
 Pedro50 29 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

Why favour the regulars? I have no issue that walls are businesses and need to behave as such. But charging an annual fee is absurd.

You go to your local wall 50 times a year. You may benefit from frequent user discounts. No problem and a red herring.

You fancy a visit to a wall 50 miles away because it has a bigger leading wall or you are in an area and the weather is crap and the only choice is a new wall. A one of joining fee is fine to cover admin etc.

18 months later the same scenario occurs. Will you go to that wall again? No because they require a renewal of the annual subscription even though it incurs them them no additional expense.

Don't try and obfuscate about the lovely staff etc. The wall owner's policy makes no commercial sense. It's not a question of being a " misery guts"
1
Lusk 29 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

Maybe it's something to do with (buying ?!) loyalty.
One has paid said membership fee, then with reduced entrance fees, one will tend to stick with that wall.
 Offwidth 29 Dec 2017
In reply to Pedro50:

If you drive 50 miles thats more than double the cost (on fuel and w&t) than the average single person single visit wall cost... do you drive for the drive or for the wall?

I think regulars are important as do all the wall owners I've known. Amongst other things, they help the wall be a friendlier and more informative place to visit, often generating their own community and providing better constructive feedback. Most commercially sensitive business, with healthy multiple competition, give loyalty ( and other) discounts: climbing walls if anything have more reasons from the healthy market to the customer types. I think you are plain wrong about small annual charges making no commercial sense; if this was true so many walls simply wouldn't do it. There are some fixed costs for members and there are reasons to keep single visit costs higher than those for more regular visitors. 50 + vists is going to be someones main wall and long period or annual discounts should be close to viable.

I don't see skilled workers getting paid low wages because too many climbers don't recognise how good a product they are buying as obfuscation. I see it as calling out the sad reality of the operating conditions of a highly competitive buisness that I feel deserves a bit more support from some of its user base. Same goes for anything climbing related from Climbing Guide books to hiring UIAA qualified guides.
8
Lusk 29 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

Drive 50 miles to a climbing wall, are you on drugs?!
Most four of us ever did was 15 to Glossop on Thursday nights. (wink wink)
1
In reply to Oceanrower:

Ooops: Doesn't doesn't doen't!
 ianstevens 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Lusk:
> Drive 50 miles to a climbing wall, are you on drugs?!

> Most four of us ever did was 15 to Glossop on Thursday nights. (wink wink)

I do once a week (actually 70 each way), it's the nearest one that isn't a cupboard. Split between 5 the costs are "ok" (£6-7 + wall entry @ £6.50) and its far better than kidding yourself that freezing your balls off outdoors for the 2 hours that daylight and dryness align during each winter month is giving you any sort of training benefit.
Post edited at 08:42
 Offwidth 30 Dec 2017
In reply to ianstevens:
I know quite a few like you. Others travel more for the fun than the training gain and don't worry about cost (ie no need to fill a car). Others travel for a particular type of facility despite a closer local wall or just for a change. Many wall customers don't ever climb outside and some keen ones have a similar attitude to indoor walls as outdoor climbers have to crags.
Post edited at 09:23
 springfall2008 30 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

> Go-outdoors is on a different game and trying (a) to discourage people from going elsewhere and (b) trying to harvest information, they have no need to register their users andthere is no H+S imperative to have members registered.

I think it maybe more of a brand/image thing. Because it's special that you have to pay a fee to join it's implied that you maybe getting a better deal there than other places that don't charge the fee. Once you have paid the fee you want to get your monies worth and will shop there again.

Costco is slightly different, it's a cash and carry and not open to the public. The fees are there because they know people will pay them.
1
 MischaHY 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Davidwi:

I'll bet it's not as good as the Depot though
 Davidwi 30 Dec 2017
In reply to MischaHY:

You’re probably right.
 ianstevens 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Offwidth:

Oh I oils t say that I do the travelling for fun myself - it’s the closest lead wall to me! I’ll be switching back outside once the weather is more plateable

That said, I know what you mean - many have no interest ingoing outside at all and will travel a long way to a wall. Each to their own - it’s not really different than someone driving a long way to go to an alternate crag.
1
 Postmanpat 30 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

> Anyone come up with a better reason than "because we can and we're greedy"?
>
Fairly blindingly obviously, in order to promote user loyalty.

5
 mal_meech 30 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

Count yourself lucky to have some options,

Try £30 a year for £9/time entry, for the only wall within ~60miles, and it’s a “registered charity”

http://www.transition-extreme.com/climbing-wall-prices
 MischaHY 30 Dec 2017
In reply to mal_meech:

£425 for the year seems reasonable if it's a decent gym. Is it?
 Martin Hore 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Pedro50:


> Don't try and obfuscate about the lovely staff etc. The wall owner's policy makes no commercial sense. It's not a question of being a " misery guts"

If it made no commercial sense they presumably wouldn't do it. I'm reminded of Michael O'Leary's observation. "RyanAir fights are full of passengers who vowed they would never fly RyanAir again".

My local wall charges an annual £5 membership fee. But it lets me in (to a pretty decent wall) for £4.05 per session (as an over 60). I'm not complaining about the price or the annual fee. I do however complain about having to fill in a longish form with identical personal information every year which they then enter into their system but for some reason can't print out for me when I come to renew again next year........

Martin
 mal_meech 30 Dec 2017
In reply to MischaHY:

Plus the £30 annual membership fee...

The wall is a lot better than it was a few years ago, when resetting seemed almost annual.

The bouldering area is limited, but the resetting schedule is reasonable and the problems often good, if overcrowded at peak times.

The leading lines are now reset regularly, sometimes really well as the local team have worked hard to improve this.

They've just installed a new training area with a circuits board so it's improving it's use of space.

It just feels expensive versus the other walls in Scotland (which in fairness Aberdeen is)
Andy Gamisou 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Martin Hore:

> I do however complain about having to fill in a longish form with identical personal information every year which they then enter into their system but for some reason can't print out for me when I come to renew again next year........

Is that The Cragg by any chance?
 ClimberEd 30 Dec 2017
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

Young lady (I presume a lady)

Annual fee is cheaper than a monthly fee per month which is cheaper than going 3 times a week.

What's not to like?

So, to make it pre GCSE simple. It's cheaper if you go a lot to pay an annual fee.

10
 Martin Hore 30 Dec 2017
In reply to Hugh Mongous:

> Is that The Cragg by any chance?

Got it in one!

To be fair that is about my only gripe. Given the constraints of the building it's in, it's a good wall.

Martin
 BrendanO 01 Jan 2018
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> 6 or 7 local walls?! Unless you're in London is that ever going to be the case? For most of Scotland it's one main wall per main town (Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness, Fort William etc), so voting with your feet is not really a good option.

But not in lucky Edinburgh...by Feb, we will have SEVEN walls open to public (not strictly within city limits, but within 30min by car), I think! Maybe more? That said, we not ideal for outdoors climbs (tho we are ok, certainly not complaining!!)
 StuDoig 02 Jan 2018
In reply to ClimberEd:

Hi Ed,
I think the OP is refering to membership fees, where the wall charge you a flat fee annually for being a member, but paying it doesn't get you any access to the facilities. Normally it makes each visit a bit cheaper though. Different to monthly and annual passes which as you say save you a lot if you're there multiple times per week!

e.g. my local wall charges £30 per year, and cost per session is £2 cheaper (£11 for non-member, £9 for member).

to the OP.
It's a major gripe I have as well. I wouldn't mind paying a small admin fee or similar but £30 per year is taking the piss - just an excuse to extort cash as they know there is no real competition. We do have another wall locally, but it's tiny and really hit or miss whether you can get in. Bouldering is much better at it though!

Cheers!

Stu
 Offwidth 02 Jan 2018
In reply to StuDoig:
Can you please explain why you see it as 'extortion' when for any regular user the annual costs would likely be pretty much the same without that charge. The overall estimated income needs to be the same whatever the pricing mechanism (and anyone who has any experience of small business knows how 'cash up front' is anything from very handy to an absolute lifesaver). Being in Aberdeen I'm guessing the only people people potentially being 'extorted' are occasional visitors to the area.
Post edited at 11:24
1
 Pedro50 02 Jan 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

Its perfectly possible for a wall to tweak its business model. Charge a lower annual sub for people living further away (say 40 Miles or whatever). This will encourage more casual visits. My former squash club did this.
 Offwidth 02 Jan 2018
In reply to Pedro50:

I never said it wasn't but whatever the pricing mechanism is it won't be extortion. Some climbers might be willing to cut off noses to spite faces but climbing wall businesses can never afford that.
 AlanLittle 02 Jan 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

There's a young lad who lives near me who's on the world cup lead circuit. When he was a junior he would phone round all the "local" walls (within about a hundred mile radius) to ask if anybody had newly set any hard routes, then his dad would drive him there at the weekend to try to onsight them.
 StuDoig 02 Jan 2018
In reply to Offwidth:
Hi Offwidth.

My main reason would be that its a charge that doesn't reflect usage and so penalises occasional users.

They have in the past also used it as an excuse to cancel multi-pass etc as my wife found out. i.e. you've got 5 passes left, but membership has expired so you need to pay £30 to use the remaining pre-paid passes. A pretty good example of extortion IMO.

Its not only visitors, it's also those who only use the wall occasionally / intermittently (e.g. we take our niece and nephew occasionally, but not often enough to recoup the cost), and to be honest I see no reason why non-locals / occasional climbers should be penalised.

If it's all about the income then why not just have a slightly higher rate per visit coupled with a nominal admin fee (which odds are wouldn't even be noticed in the admission price) plenty of walls (the vast majority that I've visited) seem to manage using variations of this, with small surcharge for non-members. Then at least you pay according to usage.

Can you think of many walls that charge such a high rate for membership with no other benefits?

Anyway, I don't want to make this thread about a single wall and their pricing strategy!

Cheers,

Stu.




 Postmanpat 02 Jan 2018
In reply to StuDoig:

> Hi Offwidth.

> My main reason would be that its a charge that doesn't reflect usage and so penalises occasional users.
>
It's presumably meant to encourage customer loyalty. If you've paid your £30 you'll want to get your money's worth. Presumably they think it works.

How much is it per visit?
 john arran 02 Jan 2018
In reply to duchessofmalfi:

It isn't just about money, it's also about customer support. As an example, one off-licence chain a while back introduced a '3 for the price of 2' policy on all bottles of wine, but only could do this by increasing prices by 50%. Even though this certainly will have been effective in generating multiple sales, to me it was a terrible idea, I felt like I was being manipulated into behaviours I didn't want to do, and as a result I never went back.

Walls sometimes have much more of a captive market than off-licences, but if I was running a wall I would be very wary of pissing off many of my potential clients, especially the ones who stand to lose the most by having to pay annual charges that don't seem justified by their visit frequency, as they may simply choose no longer to come.

IMO nobody should need to pay a substantial up-front charge, other than perhaps a token few quid to cover registration admin. The one-off entrance charge could be relatively high to give scope for loyalty-based discounts such as annual membership or multi-entry schemes, thereby introducing frequent use incentives, but the one-off charge should never be so high as to seriously discourage occasional users.
 Michael Gordon 02 Jan 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

I struggle to see how c£40 for a single visit to a wall ISN'T extortionate? And for a visitor from afar, concluding that a fee of that nature for a single session is over the top seems understandable.
 Marek 02 Jan 2018
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> I struggle to see how c£40 for a single visit to a wall ISN'T extortionate?

It's not extortionate because you are not forced to pay. It's an 'offer' which you can accept or reject.
Is the wall still in business? If so then presumably there are enough people accepting that offer (i.e., think it's a reasonable price to pay for the service).
3
 Scott K 02 Jan 2018
In reply to StuDoig:

I don't mind the annual fee but it really annoys me that an annual pass does not include it so you need to pay the annual fee plus the annual pass.
I think Transition may be the most expensive wall in Scotland at £11 per visit for non members.
I agree bouldering is better at RGU but far too hot.
 Offwidth 03 Jan 2018
In reply to StuDoig:
"My main reason would be that its a charge that doesn't reflect usage and so penalises occasional users." I don't get this argument: the annual TX charge is not compulsory you don't have to pay it but then must pay a single use £11 fee. The fee structure doesn't look so high to me for a multi-sport facility and has the usual consessions:

http://www.transition-extreme.com/climbing-wall-prices


"They have in the past also used it as an excuse to cancel multi-pass etc as my wife found out. i.e. you've got 5 passes left, but membership has expired so you need to pay £30 to use the remaining pre-paid passes. A pretty good example of extortion IMO." This looks like pretty sharp practice but it depends on the circumstances. If the wall was very clear this would be the case if the pass wasn't used within the year I'd say its just poor customer service and she should ask them nicely for a discount or a small price reduction for a new pass. If not, the multi-entry was almost certainly mis-sold and your wife should have been refunded (in law).

"Its not only visitors, it's also those who only use the wall occasionally / intermittently (e.g. we take our niece and nephew occasionally, but not often enough to recoup the cost), and to be honest I see no reason why non-locals / occasional climbers should be penalised." They are not being penalised, it's the more regular users like you who are being encouraged and rewarded if they wish to become TX members. Another factor with new or irregular users is in my experience they are more likely to be hassle for the wall by not following rules (and as an aside much more likely to get injured).

"If it's all about the income then why not just have a slightly higher rate per visit coupled with a nominal admin fee (which odds are wouldn't even be noticed in the admission price) plenty of walls (the vast majority that I've visited) seem to manage using variations of this, with small surcharge for non-members. Then at least you pay according to usage." Because they chose a different model which they are perfectly entitled to do as a business. Customers can change that by lobbying them and go elsewhere if not satisfied (I was perfectly serious about some climbers cutting off their nose to spite their face: I've seen it quite a few times)

"Can you think of many walls that charge such a high rate for membership with no other benefits?" Its one of the higher rates but the extra cost is recovered in 15 climbing visits. If there was more local competition it would probably not be viable, but only because climbers are so bloody mean. £11 for unlimited day use for an indoor sport is still too cheap in my view and some much cheaper walls simply need to charge more if the market can stand it. People who do excellent work in these walls as employees deserve proper reward.

"Anyway, I don't want to make this thread about a single wall and their pricing strategy! " a bit late now.
Post edited at 07:24
1
 Offwidth 03 Jan 2018

In reply to john arran and Michael Gordon

All valid arguments but the annual charge at Transition isn't compulsory it's part of a multi-use discount structure. Single occasional use is seemingly just £11 as per the link in my reply to Stu and Stu's first post.
Post edited at 07:35
 john arran 03 Jan 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

> In reply to john arran and Michael Gordon

> All valid arguments but the annual charge at Transition isn't compulsory it's part of a multi-use discount structure.

I didn't anywhere suggest it was - I would have no idea. My reply and my point was to the thread in general.
 Si dH 03 Jan 2018
In reply to Offwidth:
>£11 for unlimited day use for an indoor sport is still too cheap in my view and some much cheaper walls simply need to charge more if the market can stand it. People who do excellent work in these walls as employees deserve proper reward.

Realistically most people at a wall only go for a couple of hours and there is an upper limit of around 3 hours if you are actually climbing rather than sat around, unless you wish to climb badly and injure yourself. As a customer you are therefore paying £11 for 2-3 hours max, not all day. The fact you could stay all day if you wished is irrelevant because everyone knows that you won't.

Personally I think £11 is a bit expensive but am willing to pay it occasionally for a good wall. However, it would also be nice, if prices are getting this high, for a wall to offer a cheaper price for up to 60 or 90 minutes' climbing. There are many people for whom £11 2-3 times per week would be unaffordable and this would give them a good option.

I'm not sure what going rate is for climbing wall staff, but I'd expect it to be low. Ultimately pay is market-driven like wall prices. Working at a wall (or in any aspect of climbing full time) is a lifestyle choice and there are many people who would like to do it, with relatively little qualification requirement. So it will always be low paid.

Si
Post edited at 07:53
 Si dH 03 Jan 2018
In reply to Si dH:

> I'm not sure what going rate is for climbing wall staff, but I'd expect it to be low. Ultimately pay is market-driven like wall prices. Working at a wall (or in any aspect of climbing full time) is a lifestyle choice and there are many people who would like to do it, with relatively little qualification requirement. So it will always be low paid.

Edit: I do think good problem/ route setting is a skill and one that could/should allow good people to earn a bit more - but their problem is that there is no relevant qualification to differentiate them from others who aren't as good.
 Offwidth 03 Jan 2018
In reply to Si dH:
Yet unqualified climbing wall workers seem to me much more skilled and engaged than typical indoor sport staff. I don't see the fact that there is a lot of competition to work at around minimum wage makes it a good thing. Can you think of any indoor sports that work out at lower costs per hour?

That £11 is the most you can pay per visit at that wall: any regular users or concessions will climb cheaper. I really do think £11 average for a high quality dedicated facility is too cheap (and yes I do favour consessions including discounts for say short lunch visits... walls are often quiet then so it can increase revenue). I'm getting on a bit now but if I was retired I'd happily spend 3+ hours at a wall on a wet winter day. When young and keen I would normally climb more than 2 hours on indoor roped climbs.
Post edited at 08:41
 Si dH 03 Jan 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

>. Can you think of any indoor sports that work out at lower costs per hour?

I haven't played anything regularly for many years so can't say at today's prices from personal experience. However, I just looked how much a session in the gym at Derby arena costs, and the answer is £7.35. I haven't looked anywhere else, but that's similar to most climbing walls still. A gym is the relevant comparison here because the marginal cost to a climbing wall or a gym of taking one extra person is very low, whereas for racquet sports, for example, you take over the whole court, so the price should be much higher.
If I wanted to book a quarter of the wall all for myself and 2 mates then I might expect to pay a more consistent rate with, eg, tennis (£15/hr?)
 Offwidth 03 Jan 2018
In reply to Si dH:

Is that on top off something like a £30 a month membership? In any case Derby will be cheap and Aberdeen is relatively expensive (but nothing like as much as some of the more costly gyms) ... we do need to compare fairly.
 Si dH 03 Jan 2018
In reply to Offwidth:
> Is that on top off something like a £30 a month membership? In any case Derby will be cheap and Aberdeen is relatively expensive (but nothing like as much as some of the more costly gyms) ... we do need to compare fairly.

No. That's a payg price. A monthly membership costs £31 after which it is free. So slightly cheaper than some walls. For £38 you can use the swimming pool and attend classes too.

Derby isn't that cheap. However I feel this is a pointless line of discussion - I'm not unhappy with the Derby walls or their prices (the Unit is really good and costs £8 I think) and I wasn't trying to imply anything about the Aberdeen wall either, I've never been there. I'd expect Aberdeen to be expensive if it was a good wall. I was just replying to your general point that walls should charge more (>£11) since for most walls I think this would be too much.
Post edited at 10:38
 Offwidth 03 Jan 2018
In reply to Si dH:

Unit is a bit cheaper than £8. £7.50 max cost (on top of £3 life membership). For that, if you engage with the place you almost feel like a member of a climbing family. So I know what you are trying to say but disagree. I also know I'm in a tiny minority. I've always been willing to pay more for good quality and places like The Unit are plain excellent.

https://theclimbingunit.com/about/opening-times-prices/

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