UKC

This video gives the low down on progress, problems and how it went over a three year period.

youtube.com/watch?v=3KT8VgfApLE&

I made this video mostly to share my process and give others - who may be considering, however lightly, quitting and pursuing climbing an idea of what could happen. (Summary; DO IT!)

Ask me anything!

Please don't. The popular routes are busy enough at the weekend.

When you don't work you can climb during the week 

... and go to places that are amazing and not crowded at all.

Maybe I should do it when I get divorced and sell the business?

worth a bash!

on the other hand - why wait? 

Interesting, if a little preachy. 

I know, but if everyone else quits work...

Did you basically make enough money to live off first ? Retiring in a fashion to climb ? 

hahaha

they all would soon start crushing so hard the popular routes would get left alone after a while :P

How are you funding your lifestyle?

I saved enough money to take me through three years (it was that or the depressing idea of dropping it all on a deposit for an overpriced pile of bricks). Avg spend = £1k a month at a guess (spain vanlife is super cheap while bigwall travel etc.. brings it up again).

Other than that the aim was to see if I could claw back a bit / slow the burn-rate as I traveled with a bit of remote work as I went.

Initially, I saved money and did not have strong aims to make it as I traveled.. I wanted to just focus on climbing.

Now I make money through the YouTube channel via ad-revenue (like $1 to $4 per 1000 views depending on topic, unfortunately, the climbing content ad-rev is piss-poor - more like $1 so that stuff has to be just for fun / to share).

I sell some content to other channels (like to EpicTV),  I sell some ebooks through the channel (how to make a van) and also a travel warm-up/training hangboard I have manufactured. I do the odd bit of design/branding consultancy for some old clients of mine too.

Mostly my life costs about £1k a month on avg - means you don't have to make so much to save a little while also having a decent time.

So you haven't really stopped working at all then. 

I quit the job I had at the time - and I did not do anything that I would consider work in the first 1.5 years of travel and climbing.

Then, partly by chance, and partly through just doing stuff I wanted to do anyway I managed to get to a place where it could fund further travel.
 

So you turn a hobby into a job then claim you don't work. But either way, you don't spend your time purely climbing? In reality you changed job to something more flexible that increases climbing time. 

I got bored training full time.  I'd rather move somewhere where I had flexible working and good local cragging

Thanks for sharing. Interesting to hear your view and experiences. I'm somewhat dismayed by the number of 'dislikes' you've received from kindred, climbing-loving UKCers. Maybe a big dollop of envy, as not everyone has the resources or life context from which to take the plunge? You hit a nerve at the centre of what it is to self-identify as a climber.

Undoubtedly for most people re-engineering one's lives so that you have time to devote to your passion will yield results. Particularly for more physical activities, if performance is the goal, better to do it before age bents what your body can deliver. 

This year I've carved out more time for climbing (and family) by giving much less space to work (although nothing as radical as what you've done) and feel in a much better place with my life, as well as succeeding on some long-term climbing aspirations.

Tony

I was working in a job in London - I quit that work and went climbing full time - that statement is accurate.

In the first 1.5 years pretty much only climbed while making some videos purely for fun.

Now, currently in year 4, as at the start of the trip I generally, 2 days on - 1 day off for blocks of 8 weeks before the body needs a few days proper rest. This past month I have been in Rocklands and have not done anything you could construe as work. As YouTube took off - I did put more effort into it but sometimes I have not posted for up to 2-3 months at a time.

Unless you are lucky enough to inherit wealth or have retired already a climbing lifestyle with no income is obviously going to unsustainable in the long-term. My initial plan was to give climbing 3 years focus and then go back to the UK and do a new business or something - but luck and a bit of hustle has meant that this climbing lifestyle has become more sustainable.

On that basis, I did quit work and climbed full time. And now - I would not say that I have changed jobs - I do not have a job right now.. that to me implies you have an employer - which I certainly don't. 

So you posted a link to said video here to attempt to gain more views and up this presumably?

How on earth do you spend £1k a month living in a van???

Oh yeah, haha I did not notice the dislikes. Not to worry, the aim of this content is not to please everyone but to maybe give some motivation and ideas to people who think more in terms of possibilities than difficulties.

I find that if you put yourself you there - inevitably you are going to attract negativity... and in the UK - especially so if it appears that it did not all go completely wrong

--

What surprised me in this process was how much difference the commitment made - I totally surpassed my expectations and this is partly why I want to share that process.

Also - sounds great about your re-engineered life. Best of luck with it all!

Do you see this as a long term viable option to living your life or more of a "do it while you can" sort of thing?

Al

A climbing video like this might get 30k views (if it does really well) - so maybe 30 dollars with climbing-related CPM rates. This video took two-three days to make.. so I am not creating this content for the money.

I am posting it here because I think it is relevant to weekend warrior climbers (as I was) and for a segment of people who wonder what would happen if they did commit... or are curious to the results that might happen if they did.

£1k a month is an average. For example, last year I spent about 6 months in Europe in a van, I did two Yosemite seasons and also was in S.E Asia twice. Oh and a little trip to Malta. The further afield trips rack up a bit more cost with flights/luggage/extra gear shopping.

This is the question! I can save a little now - but I also need to think about my long-term financial future. The coming year or two will give me a feel for how far I can take either monetising youtube - or doing other work as I travel. 

It is hard to make money through youtube - and uplifting revenues is not easy. As the '3 year holiday' period I gave myself is up I am pretty OK to work more - especially if I can keep to climbing 2 days out of three - on that basis I am working on a couple of things outside of youtube that might make it work.

After a year of sport climbing and trying hard stuff I was getting a bit bored of it.. so I went trad climbing and focused toward more adventurous stuff. This fixed everything until I got a bit frazzled of a year of Trad climbing. In hind sight I would have mixed it up a bit more and it is what I am doing now to work toward my current goals.

I have not really trained very much - only really climbing outside and moving around to new places all over the world certainly makes it interesting.

A gap year?

The millions of self employed people will glad to hear they don't actually work for a living.  

I think it's great to improve a work life balance. But in this instance to suggest that they quit work and only climb was stretching it a little, especially when they post a link to video... which they go on down thread to declare they make revenue from. 

I've put some hurried reflections on this on my blog:

http://www.gordonstainforth.co.uk/a-question-of-balance

As I say there, it's simple a counter-argument. Not necessarily right. Just expressing an unease about it that I feel

I didn't suggest anyone should quit work.. more I am indicating what might happen if they did.

And, as above - this video will make no meaningful revenue for me. It might be like being paid 20p an hour - I make climbing stuff just to share stuff with other climbers. I do not put something on UKC unless it is potentially of reasonable value to people who spend time on a climbing forum. 

Not totally sure why you seem so butthurt by this post.

Ah nice, it is a fair perspective but perhaps it is taking the video - which is about what happens if you commit to climbing for a while to mean you do nothing else with the rest of your life either. 

If I have time today I will put a reply on your blog.

Good on you for having the guts and nous to go on this trip. I for one am happy to see you’re having a blast.

i think the reason you will get negativity is the whole ‘positive/aspirational/ living your best life instagram’ vibe, the simple fact is lots of people have responsibilities that have to be committed to (kids/job). 

You don't have to quit work to have a great climbing life with great adventures.

You also don't have to quit work to get really good either.

Just look at what Mick Fowler has achieved while holding down a full time job for 40 years (until his recent retirement) at HMRC.

Sounds like you've managed to find a good balance, enjoy yourself and ignore the haters.

I quite agree.. but depends on how good you are / or how good you are at training.

For me, I don't think I would have been able to get the same results - or get the time that I needed to do the big wall stuff while working.

I have some sympathy for Gordon's doubts about this.  It's ironic that it is being enacted by someone of the generation that is constantly criticising my generation for having it all and spoiling it for the youngsters.  We could never have dreamed of a life like this so perhaps we have not taken everything and spoilt it for the millennials after all.

Good luck but remember there is more to life than just climbing.

Al

Thanks Tom!

Haha well if the housing market was not a total rip off I might have stuck around and considered a more settled life.

I quite agree.. climbing is never going to be enough for me.. hence little hobbies like YouTube spiraling out of control. Also at my age I have had various different paths before taking a few years to focus on climbing - from creating medical products, techy start-ups to lobbying for prison reform. Unless I get unlucky (or too complacent) one day I doubt climbing life-style will be the last thing I do.

Good luck to you fella. Nice vid.

Cheers

Mark

Thank you for the video. It's always nice for people to shared their experiences and journey through life.

I'm somewhat dismayed by the number of 'dislikes' you've received from kindred, climbing-loving UKCers. Maybe a big dollop of envy, as not everyone has the resources or life context from which to take the plunge? 

Yes, envy and a lack of courage to leave the "security" of a Job. Uncertainty is hard to commit to and much to be admired. just my opinion

So many dislikes is a bit odd. I got inspired to quit work reading Jerry Moffats bio. Easily influenced. If one person gets inspired by this then it'll be totally worthwhile.

If you can make it work and if your aren’t tied down by other commitments in life, why not, at least for a few years?

Do you find it easy to find climbing partners who are psyched to do similar things? I guess it’s not hard in places like Spain and Yosemite but if you wanted to head off the beaten track a bit it may take more searching. 

Do you get a bit frazzled by the constant climbing and travel or just take it in your stride and enjoy it? I guess if you ever do get a bit fed up with it or get injured you could always do it part time, taking a few months off a year for trips and mixing it up with some flexible contract work. 

That's a really great video, thanks for sharing! I normally don't find these types of videos all that interesting but yours was really well put together, started following your channel too now.

Read your response.

Blimey, the guy’s just having a few years out for climbing (not really harming anyone is it). Who knows (or has the right to judge) what he did before or will do in the future?

I think he still has a few years ahead to ‘contribute’ to society (as you seem quite obsessed with) after this period of ‘time out’.

If the OP was new routing around the world would you feel like his time was better spent? On that point how many routes have you, me and many others climbed that were put up/developed by people ‘living the life’ that the OP is currently living? 

I don’t think society is going to collapse on the back of his actions (or inaction) as you seem to fear ; ) 

So indulging in your passion, and at the same time creating web content for others to be motivated by and enjoy is contributing nothing to society? And someone who works behind the counter at Primark or HMV does? Someone making parts for motorbikes all their lives is inspiring no one and simply fulfilling a task that if they dropped dead that day, would just carry on via a replacement. 

Definite old man who can't handle that nowadays we don't need to be down the mines to earn money, and that your passion or hobby can so much more easily become a means of existence and income than it could have been 50 years ago, when 'work ethic' meant coming home dirty with an achey back to a plate of mash potato. 

He buys Diesel he's paying tax, he buys a flight, paying tax, food, tax. Wether you pay income tax or not everyone pays tax somehow. 

Either way your blog post seems to be a re-writing of this article from 2017.

https://nypost.com/2017/10/21/meet-the-pretentious-millennials-who-romantic...

You’re welcome fella. It’s great that you’ve gone for it and seen where climbing can take you. Can only see criticism as coming from jealousy or a vague suspicion that you’re somehow ‘cheating the system’. I’m sure you’d be the first to agree this isn’t a path for everyone and you can indeed be a good/ happy climber fitting it in around other stuff. But making the most of the time and space you have available in whatever way you feel is right for you is very wise, and who knows where it will lead. I sort of wish i’d made the most of the freedom I had earlier in life, but then without sticking at my job I wouldn’t have met my wife or have my kids etc. We’re all on a trip and you just have to grip it and rip it. Take care and best wishes. 

Exactly. There is another factor at play as well, which the OP alludes to. These days it’s hard to make a decent living and buy a flat/house with property prices being what they are in most of the county (and the places where it’s still cheap there is little work to be had). This means for a lot of young people today it’s easy to just say ‘why bother being in the rat race?’.

Do you ever feel like a plastic bag drifting through the wind?

Well put. The idea of contributing is a vague one. Who does? How is that measured? Can it even be measured? Clearly people providing essential public services (NHS, schools, police and so on) are contributing to society. There are many other ways to contribute though. Most people contribute something at some stage of their life but do they even have to - is there a rule that you have to contribute?

I think the key thing is not to have a negative impact on other people and try to limit your environmental impact. The OP is living a fairly low key lifestyle, hanging out with his climbing friends and not consuming an excessive amount of resources (his main impact is long haul flights but on the other hand he doesn’t buy lots of crap like many people do).

Well you are contributing if you pay tax.  Nothing vague about that.  If he is paying tax and not using welfare to fund his lifestyle I say good luck.

Al

Agree. Tax is based on income and consumption (as well as assets in some countries). Someone who has minimal income and doesn’t spend much won’t be paying much tax but that’s fair enough. If they then need NHS care, they are as entitled as the millionaire who pays loads of tax, that’s just how the system works here (not in the US of course). In fact by leading a healthy lifestyle a climbing bum will hopefully need less NHS care in future than the office worker who doesn’t have an active lifestyle. It’s never as simple as what you put into or get out of the system at any one point in time.

If someone is living off benefits to go climbing when they could be working, that’s a different matter. Then again, we wouldn’t have many classic routes from the 1980s if it weren’t for that generation of climbing bums! Actually, we probably would, just put up by other people at a later point and hence less polished by now 

Only when the orgy gets out of hand

What should really happen is BMC should stop trying to get people outdoors and preserve a fragile ecosystem. Despite taking the Sport England shilling to promote diversity and try and foster more outdoor climbing, they should encourage colour coded plastic pullers to stay indoors and not bumble around outdoors with music speakers, drones etc.  with no idea what to do and an increased possibility of accidents. At a wall recently I had one woman say to me “do I take it you climb outdoors. How strange”On another occasion I questioned Dave Turnbull about the recent upheavals at the BMC. “There,s easier ways to earn a salary” he said, at which point I said “name one” which of course he couldn’t,t. Someof the senior BMC staff are an unelected body, with jobs for the foreseeable future with open ended contracts, travelling the world on expenses paid climbing trips. Can,t blame them for resisting change. Turkeys don,t vote for Christmas. My perception is that a lot of the really useful work is undertaken at grass routes level by a dedicated volunteer force. The clue is in the name Mountaineering, which of course said unelected management tried to autocratically change in deference to their paymasters, prompting mayhem. The Alpine club are considering allowing members to block payment to BMC and the Alpine Climbing Group is possibly being resurrected to cater for serious mountaineers. Having said all that it,s probably only representative of modern risk free environments. As the glaciers melt the snowflakes pile up!

If it were based purely on finance - how much longer do you reckon you can continue in this vein ?

Will you get bored with this lifestyle before that becomes an issue and naturally transition into a different challenge or is it a long term proposition ?

Really liked your early vids which had easily identifiable Climbing goals - do you have any current ones in mind ??

Actually, my past travel-based hospital trips have mostly been at the expense of insurance companies (e.g. Dengue in Thailand) so even less of a burden on the NHS! 

Actually, my past travel-based hospital trips have mostly been at the expense of insurance companies (e.g. Dengue in Thailand) so even less of a burden on the NHS! 

Definitely not so hard to find people to climb with.. and over time you end up building a good network of full-time or near-full-time climbers. Yosemite stuff is harder - can be find people keen to hit up similar goals.. but it occasionally comes in good!

I tend to travel to places for about a month at a time so its not too hectic... at times for sure I feel like its a bit non-stop but then I end up in Spain in a van and chilling hard. If I get fed up - I can just do something else. Tbh, worst case for me is a corporate job earning decent dollar... that said the aim is to husstle into something that brings revenue up and makes it financially good in the LT. I just want to be free

In reply to andyman666999:

I can save money right now.. so technically indefinitely. The question really is if I can hit financially related goals and avoid screwing my self over when I am old.

I am always making new goals... so it's not a problem in terms of boredom - mostly I need to keep a handle on it and try and focus. I am thinking more about financial stuff also potentially picking up a property in Catalunya to use as a 4-6 month a year base.

Ah yeah.. thanks. I do have new goals - mostly to get stronger (bouldering), work toward climbing 8c on sport (this is a huge challenge for me - not sure if it is achievable - esp sitting here in SA with a damaged pulley!) and then take that over to Yosemite to try something harder there (not totally sure what - but have some inklings).

Classy.

Yes, a particularly charmless response to natetan who, if nothing else, seems like a nice guy. 

I read the thread before watching the vid and was astounded by the negativity.  Having watched the vid, it's clear what much of the negativity is about.  The OP come across as one of these well to do confident southern english boys born with a silver spoon in his mouth and an inate belief in his own abilities drilled into him from an early age.  This clearly grates with various people who come across as envious and jealous and with a substantial chip on their shoulder.

Me, I say go for it.  Seems like a pleasant enough chap, not doing anything offensive to anyone.  Go for it Natetan.

As for the guff spouted by Gordon Stainforth about society and contribution.  NO, No no. Perhaps you're one of the lucky few who enjoys their job and feels it adds something to society.  Hate to prick that bubble but the bulk of society jobs and just pointless drones supporting rampant consumerism that the planet can't sustain.  Natetan pulling out of that is really so not a big issue.

G' on yersel' Natetan

Replied via your blog - though guess you have to approve comments.

Thanks for your long and interesting reply. I've now replied to it ... but will consider your points in greater detail and may add some further thoughts. As I say, this is a debate (as someone who climbed very keenly for 40 years) that I often had with myself.

Wow! As a middle aged cynic who spends most of my days enraged by the bullshit I see millennials posting on Instagram the miserable f*ckers on this thread have done the seemingly impossible - they've made me side with a posh boy on an extended gap yah spraying about his life on the internet!

Well done to Nate on doing his thing and sharing it, I wish I had your self belief to back myself. The question I, and I dare say many others, had throughout was where does he get his money from. I thought that had largely been answered on this thread until I saw you say you can continue in your current lifestyle indefinitely and save so you must be making >£15k a year from occassional bits of work from a van with no discernible, tangible skills (other than those opaque media skills us northeners find so puzzling!). If you are actually a qualified barrister, plumber, programmer etc. then ignore this last comment, it's not meant as a putdown I'm just wondering how I was so badly advised by my careers officer in school!

what would happen if you commited to climbing, before you made enough money to travel and live?

you would either go on the dole, or do any little bits of work in your spare time to survive in a little van. dont loads of people do that?

Agree with all of this, most of us don't work for the good of society, if I thought I could make myself happier by working less (and consequently paying less tax), I would. I feel reasonably pleased that my taxes help some people but I wouldn't dismiss those who chose a different path. 

One thing worth mentioning to Londoners looking to commit to climbing but unable/willing to give up work entirely is move up north. There are jobs, Nandos and branches of JD Sports all over the north, everything the urban sophisticate needs!

I know quite a few (including myself) who have taken a significant break or breaks from work just to climb more. We all save up to support ourselves and then get back into work when the money runs out. Not sure I know any climbers who sign on.

Hard to go on the dole while in another country!

Yeah, lots of people work as they go - or work a bunch then go for a while before going back to work. All good ways to do it however personaly prefer to have more (total) autonomy, have some financial security and the ability to ditch work entirely so I could travel and climb non-stop.

I don't have a lot of interest in doing odd jobs here and there to get by; they tend to compensate relatively poorly and take a lot of time. Better to earn higher while I can, save and then live cheap.

Second that!

I get 10-20,000 views a day on YouTube, avg 7 minutes.. I get ad revenue, sell useful products to my viewers. This more than covers £1k a month.  Probably putting stuff on the internet was not part of your career advisors repetoire at that point in time!

I am qualified in stuff too

Brilliant vid, good luck with wherever the adventure takes you.

Don't tell 'em that. They'll be ruddy everywhere. 

Thanks for being so candid, I assumed when you said this video would only yield 30$ that was average for them all. I guess climbing is only going to get more popular so your channel might have more longevity than any of us knows. Now I just need to decide whether a YouTube channel of an old crumudgeon whinging about millennials climbing can be sufficiently monetised. If I could get it presented by a boomer who took early retirement from a public sector job on a final salary pension we could get an inter-generational fued going that would be dynamite for both our ratings. 

Too late, I'm on my way...

Chicken EXACTLY the same. What's not to like?

Good effort in making this work for you. The fact you have transitioned from being a waged employee to a self- employed internet entrepreneur was hinted at in the video- 'multiple businesses' etc. It is work but not traditional 9-5 work. I'd have loved to do something like this myself but I'm old, don't have the entrepreneurial spark and the youtube star thing hadn't yet started when I could have done it. 

(The fact I'm also a chubby punter may have taken the gloss off it an aw). Anyway, congrats. 

PMSL. I feel a bit like that too!

I think that's the pertinent point. I have no idea about Nate's financial status, or if there's a trust fund or a few million quid in inheritance in the years to come.

What he does have, in spades, is self-belief, which is a very rare commodity. I couldn't have embarked on that sort of lifestyle, because I know only too well how people can ruin their lives by 'living the dream' and finding they're living in a shitty flat, on the dole, and staring at no future by the time they hit 40. The vast majority of people who embark on that lifestyle have a very big financial safety net if it all goes pear shaped. Whatever his circumstances, I say good luck to Nate, I admire what he's done.

^ This. That's a big income from a few youtube videos.

youtube.com/watch?v=bRHggB2Z2bY&

I’d rather watch Bear Grylls than this silly drivel. Some of the content is good but this is the worst kind of silly. 

James

In that case bloody well done, enjoy it!

Nice Video Nate, I enjoyed that and even subscribed, if nothing else it stopped my going back to the fridge for another pork pie!

Meh, I experiment here and there.

Did you accidentally reply to the wrong thread?

Loved your how to climb your hardest route video, but after now being alerted to the whole channel itself, you have very clickbaity titles on your videos, that seem aimed at the punters or those with an interest, to actual climbers themselves I imagine they look commercial, pretentious, and outright cringey some of them. The content is good (when you focus the lens) - but in your quest for views (and rightly so tbh, you gotta make your doe somehow) - you run the risk of the titles and cheezy graphics pushing die hard, older, or more salt of the earth climbers away from your content.

If you’re in your 20s or 30s, it’s possible to try something like this and then, if it doesn’t work out, go down a more conventional route. Still, I think it’s sensible to have something to fall back on and it sounds like the OP has experience of working in some professional capacity. He can presumably always go back to doing that, either part time or full time. That’s the safety net essentially.

You get people in their early 20s trying to do this but without having built up any savings to speak of or having some solid work experience. Good luck to those who try this approach but it’s fraught with risks - they don’t have much to fall back on and, if it doesn’t work out, would have to start from square one in terms of trying to get a decent job. Not impossible but it gets harder the older you are if you don’t already have relevant work experience.

As such, going down the climbing bum (and YouTube entrepreneur / wannabe) route at age 30 with some savings and work experience behind you is pretty sensible.

I’m doing the same thing in a way - after 16 years of work as a tax adviser, looking to give it up in favour of training as a mountain guide. It might not work out (I might struggle with the assessments, not be able to get enough work, get jaded, get injured, etc etc) but I’m happy to give it a go because I can always go back to being a tax adviser.

One of my friends is trying to be a full time climbing bum, including Scottish winter and Alpine climbing, which isn’t cheap. He does bits of remote working and might have to do some longer stints of work now and again to keep the funds topped up. He is an architect so can always fall back on that and I imagine the work is relatively well paid so he doesn’t have to do loads to get by. 

Interesting on the money making aspect. I suspect what has irked some readers is the implication that what you're doing is what everybody really aspires to do, which I find slightly patronising. Personally, when I've quit work for up to a year and just climbed, I've not really improved and ended up craving for home. But that's just me probably. My biggest gains in climbing, and general life happiness, have come from doing a job I like (for only 4 days a week and teacher holidays), living in a place I love with people I love, and plenty of good climbing nearby. Probably a bit uncool and certainly not very conducive to earning money from YouTube content, but thought it worth pointing out the alternatives.

You like the word "hustle" don't you? 

Not sure if it has been covered earlier, but what are you plan for pension and later life? 

Interested by what you mean by:

The climbing lark that’s promoted here seems to have little to do with natural values, much to do with artificial goals. In fact, all the goals are reduced simply to numbers: ‘I sent my first 8B.  … My first E7.

What are natural values?

Enjoying the day, the company, the views, the line of the route; the actual rock or geological features etc.  Grade is irrelevant. 

I don't see any problem with chasing grades if it provides motivation - all the other great stuff about going climbing will follow naturally with it.

Interesting video.I think you are on the right track. I am a little reminded of the Steve Jobs videos where he says do not be afraid and follow your loves, life will work out. (or something like that)
I do not think you know where you are going.

youtube.com/watch?v=D1R-jKKp3NA&

I think your strengths are;

• Courage to make the move.
• A seemingly engaging personality.
• An entreprenarial spirit.
• Some skills to fall back on.
• A decent education.

Good luck.

The game has evolved.  For the better or the worse is a matter of personal opinion.  I find myself wondering if I would take up climbing today and I think the answer is no.  I came to climbing after several years hiking specifically because it was not competitive and not commercialised and got me into wonderful places. Someone who spends hours indoors practising and is then satisfied by climbing in grotty quarries is not participating in the same activity that attracted me.  And yes I have done both of those things and yes I have been caught up in the  grade chasing and purchased loads of shiny toys but there was an innocence and sense of adventure back in the 60's and 70's that I miss.

Al

Has climbing changed, or have you. 
The hills and mountains are still there. Most routes have been done and guidebook to death, but you do not have to look at the guidebooks.
Many people say the mountain crags are quieter nowadays.
Have you lost your innocence and sense of adventure or better still sated them with the amazing things you have done, a life well spent (so far).

Of course. But I bet we have all met someone so numerically obsessed they never enjoy the day as a whole so to speak. If they have a bad day grade wise, they are impossible. It's about striking a balance, nothing wrong with chasing E points, but some times it's good just to pause and take in the day or moment. 

But it is possible to climb indoors when it's dark or wet, climb in grotty local quarries when time does not allow going to more inspiring places and still do just as much wonderful adventurous climbing in inspiring places (well, that's what I do anyway). And I chase grades too without, I believe, losing sight of any of the morr important values in climbing. The great thing about climbing nowadays is that you can have loads of cake and stuff your face with it too! In the end it is just what you choose to make of it.

Couldn’t agree more with this. Climbing is diverse and people are multifaceted. The notion that there is a stark dichotomy between pure and righteous climbers enjoying it at a sublime level and then the materialistic grade chasers is too simplistic. Being inspired by a line, a grade, a crag you’ve never been to or to not be burnt off by your mate is surely as old as climbing itself. It can also coexist in the same person: grades/routes can be milestones to seek but they don’t stop you from enjoying the moves or the sunset or any of those ‘natural values’ mentioned before 

I am surprised by the amount of negativity....I didn't see anywhere that you intend continuing forever with this sort of lifestyle.  So why not...  If you have no major ties (property, kids etc) to the UK, then what a great opportunity to not just climb in some amazing places, but also to experience other aspects of life in those places.  Good luck.

I quit a very well-paid and secure, but time-hungry job over a decade ago - not just for climbing, but dedicating less time to work allowed me to climb more, in some interesting places.  I did have times where all I did was climb, but the novelty of that wore off and I ended up realising that I actually want to "work" - at least some of the time.  That time out changed my view of work though and I think much of the negativity here could be associated with how many people see "work" or "jobs".  Since then I have "worked in various field, including teaching, high-tech consulting and education improvement.  I get just as much satisfaction from some of the projects I have worked on as I do from climbing.  I have also been lucky enough to be able to live in some fairly adventurous places through my "work" - some of these little adventures have put me way more outside of my comfort zone than climbing ever has - but in a different way, obviously.

It seems to me that in your case you are still working in some sense, but that this work fits around (and to some degree is inextricably linked to) the things you love to do - travel, climb etc.  For many, they have to squeeze their climbing around a soul-destroying job that they know contributes very little to the world in real terms.  For me the "holy grail" seems to be spending time contributing something that will hopefully improve the world for future generations and also just taking time to savour the many wonderful experiences this world has to offer. 

Not sure if that makes much sense,  but good luck and I for one hope you continue to have a blast.

I don’t feel that I imply that everyone wants to quit and climb full time. I do think it is something many climbers think of or consider but certainly not the majority - for most climbers climbing is just a side hobby in an otherwise diverse/interesting life.

The video is made the former.. if I had watched this 4 years ago I think it would have got me pretty psyched and given me some confidence in what might be achievable.

Unfortunately click bait titles work. Click bait images - even better.. I did an experiment once with a photo of the back of a girl - then removing it... views instantly dropped by 70% (there is a real time view function in YT Analytica).

 It’s a crowded space on YouTube - a clickable title is pretty important. No one likes it but we are all suckers for it.

I agree but would like to think that I'm mildly bemused rather than enraged. I do wonder wether a lot of the negativity / dislikes  are a generational thing ? Similar to me finding young people's music unlistenable ? ( music ? This is not music ! ) . I find most of what my kids watch on you tube to be vacuous nonsense and the fact that people make a living from it unfathomable . At least Nate is doing "something " , posting about it . If he can make a living from it, bloody good luck to him .

Old people fail to understand young people . The world turns around . 

For some reason this cartoon in yesterday's observer made think about this thread and chuckle . A few edits to this would make it very appropriate .

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/ng-interactive/2018/aug/12/simone-lia-o...

All this discussion is really depressing me on a Monday morning & making me feel even more trapped in a life where actually I (should be able to) climb a fair bit and don't work that much. The reason for this being very severe & chronic health stuff. I'm self employed now & work a few hours a week which totally obliterates my energy and capacity to deal with challenge & stress. It's probably the best choice I have. And I'm grateful I'm able to do what I do. But on reading this discussion, the fact that I'm stuck in a small flat in a city, grovelling in shit boring work for a few hours to make (literally) a few quid to get by on, so as not to stress myself too much & exacerbate my health problems, seems even more depressing than normal. No future, nothing to fall back on, and not much climbing because knackered. And no shiny Instagram either haha. Perhaps reading UKC today wasn't helpful...

Perhaps he should have said "my values". Everyone climbs for their own reasons and will enjoy different aspects of the experience. It's a personal thing and is what you make it. If you like working through the grades and pushing your limits, I don't see why that's any less valid than whatever enjoyment Gordon (or anyone else) gets from it.  

Good luck mate!

Flavio.

"Boring, boring, boring
Work all day, earn your bread
'Till you finally drop down dead...

Work hard every single day
Work, work, work your life away
Don't question what, don't question why
Just keep working 'till you die..."

How many people watch Mrs Brown's Boys or Judge Rinder and are entertained by it? 

Quite a high proportion of those chasing the numbers don't seem to enjoy it.  They curse, swear, scream and kick the rock, or the plywood, in a temper when they don't get something and seem to be unwilling to walk any distance to climb.

Yes it could be me that's changed.  I'm getting old and jaded and I've climbed most of the worthwhile climbs in England and Wales that I have been capable of so in that sense yes, I'm sated.  Even if the hills are quieter getting to them is becoming increasingly difficult. 

Al

I do all that. It doesn't mean I'm not enjoying it. In fact, when it happens, it's probably a sign of release; that I was trying really, really hard - and that is always satisfying in itself.

...........and the next day I might be walking miles into some remote Coire just to be there.

Good for you.  I'm just in miserable old git mode this morning.  Some of all this is to do with modern communication e.g. UKC.  There seems to be an increasing number of people wanting and providing professional instruction and guiding and less willing to go out and have an adventure.  So they get their professional instruction and then come on here admonishing others for not following "best practice" what ever that is.  For me that has always meant applying some common sense to the situation and not being limited by a single method that you may have been taught on a course.

Al

I'm sure its great if you can do it, and want to do it but  unrealistic for many with other commitments.

I think Dave Mcleod advocated something similar for improving your climbing...similarly  impractical unless you had few other responsibilities. 

Sometimes the easiest thing is to not respond to pernickety folk (some of it will be down to envy or jealousy I would think), it's remarkable the number of different ways people will find to be so.

Good luck with following your dreams.  

Maybe a few more people should try it. 

Anyone hating or talking about your contribution to society is clearly a bit jealous and probably hates their sh'tty job.  Everyones kicking off over a little video. All these grumpy old people need to cheer up and do something better than hating.

No one has kicked off. There are a number of anonymous dislikes, ages unknown; less than 5 over sixties expressing a mild unease at how climbing has changed; maybe a dozen in the 20s to 50s bracket have pointed out he's actually running a business to finance himself, but have wished him well and the rest are broadly supportive.

The only 'hating' seems to come from someone with a problem with old people

Maybe, but I think there is a worthwhile and interesting broader discussion to be had about the climbing life (whether full time or not) in general and the extent to which it can be justified in terms of society and sustainability. I think Gordon, by playing devil's advocate (albeit maybe slightly clumsily), tried to get this discussion going, but it's unfortunately been drowned out by somewhat unconstructive squabbling.

If a good mantra for life is 'Do as little harm as possible', it could possibly be argued that living a van for a few years and not being materialistic, could be a good way of reducing one's environmental footprint for that period of time? It could be a struggle to be materialist and to have space for things, unless one threw things out and bought afresh fairly frequently.

Long haul flights are pretty killer.

Actually I do a rough calc and offset my footprint 4x with solar aid. Not as good as not flying but it goes some way to balance it out.

It’s very affordable for those who want to try and be a bit more carbon neutral; https://solar-aid.org/

indeed, add to that the ‘van lifestyle’ means staying in and around climbing areas thus reducing the commuting aspect of getting to the crag.

How big is the carbon footprint of the average winter weekend warrior in comparison for instance? 

Well, the short answer is that it can't, not really. You can do what you can, but it's only ever going to be a token gesture in the face of long haul flights, diesel fuel, the huge server farms required to keep sites like YouTube and Instagram running etc.

Ditto - well put. Again each to their own

Yup, agree Ged

Good point, I'd not looked at his vid and into where he's climbing, it was more of a general ponder on living in a van and having a nice time. There's possibly two sides to being a good 'citizen of planet earth', how much one contributes, and how little harm one does/pollution one creates. I know of somebody who has been very helpful towards making things safer through engineering, but (through business) he's flown around the world enough to have an oil slick as his carbon footprint, and he kinda likes his materialism too. Life and everything in it is complex is what I'm getting at I guess.

Particularly callous, I would say. I feel Gordon owes him an apology, loss isn't something to be belittled.

Edit: I don't often pipe up, but loss goes right to the heart. 

For once I am in complete agreement with Timmd.

What an appalling cheap-shot from someone who should know better...goes to show that older doesn't always mean wiser.

I took a couple of years off to go climbing in South America. If I had the balls, I'd still be there.

This is an interesting thread. While part of the discussion is about what we think of getting out of the rat race to live life as a climbing bum, it's perhaps slightly distorted by the format. I just can't watch any "youtuber's" stuff without being reminded of...

youtube.com/watch?v=2C8QehggefI&

Agreed. I'm vaguely aware of Gordon's line of work, assuming it's the same bloke. This thread has given me  a string incentive to steer clear of his work in future.

Despite how awesomely beneficial to society it obviously is.????

I remember watching your videos a good few years back on your van build and on your solo trip to yosemittee. Loved those videos and I loved this one. Good on you, you've got the bollocks to do it. Don't listen to the coffin dodgers, they're pretty rampant pessimistic moaning fanny's at times

Stuff the ethical ins and outs of it...*cough*...can you slip me Day in Nature's contact details please...*cough*.

Seriously though good luck to you - I've watched a few of your vids here and always enjoy your enthusiasm, elan and positivity.  Keep doing it!

Gordon's work has inspired legions of climbers and non-climbers alike, so if he makes a bit of an off-colour remark I'm inclined to let it go on the basis that he's probably earned it.

Call it grumpiness offsetting, if you like.

I think this is something that many of us grapple with at some point. From my own experience, a year backpacking was a formative experience that brought me out of my small world and fixed ideas- absolutely worthwhile. But towards the end l started to feel uncomfortable and dissatisfied with being in place after place but belonging in none of them. Even if they were beautiful. I didn't like not having an answer when people asked what I did for a living. Most humans need a purpose.

Fast forward 15 years and diving and skiing have largely taken the place of climbing. I love my work in public service, work which absolutely 'contributes'. But I am working hard at making sure that I can quit in ten years and have a life that revolves around adventure. By that point I think I will be good with permanent bumming, knowing that I have spent a good chunk of my life helping others.

Brilliant! I'm stealing that to use at work when I'm accused of not being suitably enthusiastic at clearing up the mess left by the highly motivated but incompetent

....for which he has been handsomely remunerated. 

natetan seeks to to exactly the same thing as Gordon did years ago. Indeed, he may well have been inspired by Gordon's books and photographs!

It seems rather hipocritical that Gordon is so critical of his modern-day equivalent. Perhaps he's trying to scare off the competition!

This is the way Millenials roll Jon

And call me a coffin dodging old cynic, but I can't help thinking that there maybe a 'trust fund' lurking in the background here? 

....whilst  laying  in a bath of yak milk   from his castle above chamonix while his harem of ladyboys prepare  a breakfast of osprey eggs and smoked sea otter slivers...

...paid for by his baby-boomer-diamond-plated final salary pension scheme, the cost of which will be covered by the millenial generation working until the day they expire! 

Talk about biting the hand that feeds! No wonder natetan has gone rogue.

Incidently, I can think of no better way to spend my retirement than luxuriating in a bath of yaks milk whilst being fed cheese burgers by team of ladyboys. 

Don't look at his YouTube - it's wrong and crass!

Look at my blog instead;!!

Back in your box G dog .

I wish.. but no, just standard high risk financial planning.

There's no such thing as standard high risk financial planning. High risk financial planning is by its very nature non standard, and usually only engaged in by people who can afford to take the hit if it goes wrong.

Out of curiosity, I'm presuming you still have a permanent address - which you'd have to have for banking and tax regarding your YouTube earnings - so you're presumably funding that (rent mortgage) whilst you are away also?

Haha I’m not too worried. Mostly I don’t respond to negative comments (with millions of views I get my fair share).. but I think I have more patience with climber types - why not. I think it’s worth the odd intergenerational debate.

I almost feel sorry for the older gen - it was so much easier to get burdened with the good life of mortgages and sweet pensions that it must have been near impossible to avoid

Thanks for the positive feedback! Always good to know fellow climbers like the (at times random) content - it’s always the case that you can’t please everyone!

High risk financial planing = not a huge amount of financial planning ????

I register my business at my parents and use that address for all that stuff. No mortgage as yet.. tho tempted to pick up a fixer-upper in Spain as prices are more reasonable.

What impact has this thread had on your YouTube subscriber numbers?

 How much time do you have to spend on the internet to sustain your lifestyle?

This thread

Probably negligible; the video stats show 1.9% of external traffic coming from UKC. External traffic is 32.3% - this is probably click through based as otherwise it seems low. From Reddit it shows as 36% of external views so it is more effective in terms of traffic. I mostly post stuff m on UKC because I think it might be of interest to UKC people than because it gives my channel a boost.

In reality it is ranking on YouTube or getting videos that the algorithm likes is 100 x more important as YouTube can send you millions of views whereas other sites can’t. Facebook could but it simply doesn’t work with YT video as they only promote native uploads. I have 10k followers there and posting on my page is basically worthless.

Some videos I put out or shared to pages on FB have picked up 10’s of millions of views but give literally no value back to me.

Sounds good, can’t go wrong in trying imo. The old life is always waiting if you want it.

Generally not so much. Uploading can be a pain for me but mostly I’m out in nature and not online. I mostly use the internet to communicate with friends. 

Absolutely.

I'm astonished at the vitriol of some of the flak he is getting here. He said he was simply playing devil's advocate as part of the debate: "I present it simply as a counter-argument. I’m not saying I’m right". And he never said he came down firmly either way, but that it was just something he had often thought about: "As I say, this is a debate........... that I often had with myself".

Thanks, Robert (for reading what I said, apart from anything else!). It was a debate, btw, that all my contemporaries had in their early 20s (nothing to do with old age). My twin brother, for example, at the age of 21 toyed with the idea of having a career in climbing, but decided against it. (He talks about this briefly in the Afterword of my book Fiva.) But we carried on climbing for 40 years, and had a great time. Something else someone's said that's wrong. I've never had the security of a conventional career - always been freelance, and never had a big mortage. Got rid of a very small mortgage after about 5 years, so never been 'saddled' with that. Don't have a big private pension. But now have the state pension.

So you've got your parents to fall back on, which means that basically, you're on an extended gap year?

Nothing wrong with that, and I hope you continue to have a blast, and generate income at the same time, but its not exactly the same as what you've intimated in your OP.

It's a bit like me starting a thread on why you should retire at 50, and spend the rest of your life climbing, but omitting to mention that the reason I'm able to do it, is because I sold my business for a shed load of money.

Nonsense. He just said his parents have an address.

Yes, but when either he gets bored or the cash runs out, he's got somewhere to live - presumably for free?

So he's jacked in his job, but with a great big safety net underneath.

Nothing at all wrong with that, but let's at least call it what it is?

The fact that Nate's parents have an address says nothing at all about their capacity or willingness to support him in his 30s, or about his willingness to accept their offer of the  East Wing of what might be a flat in Tower Hamlets, for all you and I know.

I tell you what, I'll have you a bet it's not a flat in Tower Hamlets

Given it's his registered business address, it would be a trivial matter to find out exactly where it is - which is one reason I would not be at all comfortable asking my parents to do something like that while I trot off round Europe instagramming (hashtag vanlife). At least use a PO Box or something, then you can still claim some degree of self sufficiency.

It wasn't a very nice thing, which you said on your blog about the loss of his grandparents, though. I've a lot of respect for you, and was surprised because you generally seem like a decent sort.  I didn't mean to start a witch hunt or anything though. 

It doesn't really matter. You are presuming something without evidence. It is ludicrous to equate the security that comes from selling a business to that which comes from the fact that one's parents have  a fixed abode, like those of almost everyone.

I spent most of 2014 bumming round in Europe in a van. My post went to my sister's house. I couldn't have lived there though.

Climbing being a fairly middle class hobby, I'm sure a lot of people have parents who could help out in extremis. Probability suggests you're right. But that's because of what climbing is, not because they have an address. 

I am 55 and my Mum and Dad have a house. They will always stand by me.
My kids are 21 and 23 and I will ALWAYS be there for them.
Give Nate a break, does he have to be an Orphan or something?

Luxury!

That depends entirely on the financial circumstances of the parents, which does in fact make a huge difference to the level of risk involved.

Hi Goucho. Can we presume that the book you are writing will have a full breakdown of your income and expenditure during the relevant period, as well as a family tree with income summaries for your parents?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/a_book-690755?v=1#top

I feel this is neccesary for any reader to properly judge the context of your exploits.

Or am I just taking it all waaay too seriously?

If I include a chapter where I advise other people to give up their jobs and become a full time climber, then absolutely.

Interesting, and interesting to observe the range of emotions displayed in the responses so far. My strategy (if one can call it that) is to accumulate enough resources to jack in work ASAP, partly to climb more but also to do those other things that having worked full time for 33 years, I've been unable to do. Maybe I'll write some unprofitable guidebooks to esoteric climbs!

God, what a depressing read this thread is. It's a hell of a lot easier to criticise than do. You'll always come across badly by criticising people with enthusiasm whether your views are well founded or not. If you don't like it, leave it alone, (something I have learnt as a weekend musician, and through knowing ameteur/sponsored 'extreme' sports people) 

As someone with a house, GF and a dog at 26 I say good on you. If it wasn't for the fact I love my job and live somewhere with great access to the outdoors I'd be doing the same, the vast majority of people live lives which I would personally find desperately boring and they don't even realise it...

Hit me up if you need somewhere to stay in South Scotland anytime, the internet is great so you can still log in to read all the depressing comments

I'd say it's probably not easy to hit the right balance between 'you too could do this' and 'look what I'VE done'. To your credit though Nate, you've not mentioned Stanley Kubrik once

I read a Kubrik interview once. He didn’t mention Gordon either ; ) 

I’ve climbed now for 48 years climbed intensively around the world and only had jobs in factories etc that gave me maximum time off and no worries when I clocked out but so little money even got out of working all together and now travel abroad 2 months away 2 months back uk etc .

all I can say is good on you live the life you wish .

good health and take care

keith s

I think you’re projecting you own inability to imagine living a more adventurous life and accepting the risks it can involve.

See my reply on Gordon’s blog for a little more about my career history.

Again you’re just making wild assumptions - based on what? It can only be projection. All the video does is say what happens if you commit to climbing from a perspective of someone who is not that talented and not that young.

Btw our society is not set up well for people who do not have addresses. Actually it’s not possible to have a car or a bank account... so if you’re gonna f*ck off and have a wonderful life elsewhere you still need some sort of administrative address.

Cheese burgers are fine.  Hot dogs you've got to watch.

Welcome to the people of the UKClimbing forums*.  

*Possibly most forums.

I have lived, and continue to live a life full of adventures, both on and off the mountains, and have taken a great many huge risks along the way.

In other words, you're having a good time playing on rock, which is great, but you seem to be presenting it on this thread, as though you've taken this big leap and risk, which I'm not convinced you have?

Of course.

I have quite probably been over argumentative and contrary regarding this thread.

I'll put it down to the mitigating circumstances of having had a house full of f*cking millenials for the past three days, full of self entitlement and bollocks, and an obsession with documenting every f*cking moment of their lives via Instacrap and YouthTube, with three of them all on extended gap years courtesy of mummy and daddy's bank account, yet acting like their travels are the equivalent of Ernest f*cking Shackleton's!

Anyway, enjoy the ride whilst it lasts.

G.

Be steady with Goucho, Nate. He's airing some perfectly valid worries. We're all climbers here, with the same bottom-line huge enthusiasm for the sport, but we all think (I hope) about the problem of how climbing fits in with other aspects of life. How we can get the very best out of life and still contribute to it. At the end of the day, how we can feel confident that we've really spent our lives in the best possible way/s. If only these questions were easy.

Having read Goucho's reply of 19:31 again, I think it's one of the most amusing, honest and wise I've read here for aeons.

You know, I don't think I'm one of the haters on this and I don't think I count as a grumpy old git just yet... but I do find the proselytising tone of a lot of the #vanlife type social media content a little weird. For any number of reasons* this is not a lifestyle which is likely to be available to many/most consumers of the content but it's become a fundamental part of the image of what it is to be someone who loves the outdoors. That's not intrinsically a problem but we're in an age where we where these prepackaged aspirations have, to a greater extent than ever before, become more important than finding your own path.

Obviously climbing media has always sold aspiration - when I was starting out I was watching Dosage, dreaming of Yosemite or Ceuse or Bishop - but I don't ever remember being told that this is what I should be doing with my life, that this is the right way to enjoy the sport.

I'm not convinced my life would be richer if I had jacked in the 9-5 life - a job I enjoy and am good at, relationships built up through that common purpose - in favour of the nomadic existence. I'm not convinced my climbing experiences would matter more to me than those that I've had in spite of the the humdrum realities of my day to day life. 

There's plenty of reasons to think that aspirational social media is not entirely unproblematic in terms of people's overall happiness or even their mental health and it makes me uncomfortable to see a life that I love leveraged in this way.

*some real, some debatable, some imagined.

I think the people on here talking about the large risks they've taken, or that other people have, while talking about him just going climbing and coming from a fairly lucky back ground, are seeking to undermine what he's doing or saying, in a way that doesn't quite make sense to me because he's not set out to compare himself to other people, it's more just been about what he's done. 

Edit: He's not really implied that he's taken big risks. 

Good points. I won't name the person here but am aware through reading one blog of how isolated and fearful one individual was living the full- time climbing van life in Europe. There appeared to be constant worry of violent robbery in the overnight stops and that seemed to be a major stress in their life. If the sun's shining and you're in company I bet it's totally idyllic being a climbing nomad. Alone I could see it being less so.

#goshlifestough 

I don’t see any risk in what I do. I saved money, i took time off and in the process made more money..  if I didn’t my absolute worst case scenario (outside of accidents) is a decently paid corporate job. Tho I’m more likely to start a business then do that.

Also overly assumptive perhaps?

This could be annoying.

What climbing area are they worried about being robbed in? I think van life is much safer than where I lived in London while working. It’s also unbelievably easy to find people to hang with.

This is perfectly fine though right, you’re a rational human being who has taken in some media and decided that the person portrayed’s choices are not for you. I don’t see this as being any different from people sacking off work to go on the dole in the ‘80’s because that’s what ‘real’ climbers did at the time. It’s not for everyone, and I assume a lot of people (like you and me) watched a bit of that video and thought ‘f*ck that, I like my life as it is and how climbing fits into it now, and living in a van sounds shit’ or words to that effect. 

It was Spain and France but you're talking a few years ago now- maybe 2013 ish. The person involved ended up flogging the van and putting down roots somewhere else in Europe. 

Ah crazy... and sad that it worked out that way. I honestly love Euro van life... I kinda miss it when I’m away!

I've always believed that living a little outside one's comfort zone is a healthy thing to do. But it's not that easy to define a "discomfort zone".

For a climber, climbing is not necessarily so far out of one's comfort zone, mainly because the discomfort is short-lived. Working from dawn to dusk in a tough environment (e.g., desert or Arctic) for months on end can be way tougher. When I was in those situations, I was usually longing to get back to a simple camping/climbing environment in Europe or the UK say., and when on leave, that is exactly what I would do. 

Somewhat tangential, but your message about reaping the benefits of application even if you don't have bags of talent really struck a chord with me. 'I'm clumsy, not at all intuitive and bad at remembering beta'= me in almost every sport and endeavour ever. But, I am persistent to a fault which almost always pays off in the end. Not that you need to ditch it all and embrace the van life to do this.

'Aptitude is given, effort is original.'

It isn't the climbing that's outside the comfort zone, it's the uncertainty of livelihood and future that accompanies such a climbing-centric lifestyle choice. True, it must be much harder if you don't have marketable skills to fall back on, but the idea of launching on an indefinite climbing life is very very different from any other trip, even those of a year or more.

I say good on him for following a path he sees as more personally rewarding, even if the salary is awful and people on t'interweb have a go at him for not contributing sufficiently (in some intangible and not fully explained way.)

If he was an artist living on a pittance in Cornwall (if you'll pardon the stereotype), producing art that few if any really want to buy, how many of these same detractors would be so vocal in criticising his decisions or his actions?

You raise a valid point, here.

The the prospect of being accosted by a tube-steak wielding ladyboy as I lie defenceless in a bath of Yaks milk is enough to put me off my supper...particulary if footage ends-up as millenial click-bait on #facetube.com.

John, I agree with most of what you say. A "climbing-centric lifestyle" can be great as long as it is not a way of avoiding difficult decisions and responsibilities.

How do you square that with the dole- hound elite climbers of, say, Camp 4 and 80's Llanberis? 

Zero visible contribution to anything for normal society but their climbing legacy is extremely important in athletic terms.

I get the feeling that this "at least I contribute to society" line is sometimes a smokescreen for people's regret that they never felt able to follow their heart.

Obviously the ideal is to achieve both, but given a choice, I'd rather have been a Jonathon Livingston Seagull than a pack bird.

Thanks.. yeah, it was a great experience to see that possibilities were greater than expectations.

And yeah, for sure you can get there other ways.. but not sure I would have. It’s hard if you’re commuting as a weekend warrior as I would generally be in my lines or work to get the volume of time in.

Box? You were lucky to have a box! We only 'ad a sheet of t'paper, and it were toilet paper at that!

Classic Groucho.

Classic. 

I did not say that a climbing lifestyle invariably means avoiding difficult decisions. I think usually it does not.

A "climbing-centric lifestyle" can be great as long as it is not a way of avoiding difficult decisions and responsibilities

= A "climbing-centric lifestyle" can be great except when it is used to avoid difficult decisions and responsibilities

e.g. I climber who adopts a full-time climbing lifestyle that is supported by a hard-working wife, when the latter is not happy about it.

e.g. When it is an excuse not to get down to work or study in order to become a self-sufficient responsible adult.

I known several such examples. Luckily they are quite rare.

I am not too worried about an apology but I do think Gordon's response was more acidic than necessary - especially as the nature of the content was not dictatorial - mostly just describing my experience of giving climbing a real go. It has been well recieved by the people who it was created for (maybe people who still wish to try and see what they can do) and that is mostly what matters

In reply to Gordon Stainsforth;

I know it is the age of Trump and Brexit but I feel that it is possible to create a meaningful debate without denigrating entire groups of people or making personal digs based on little more than assumption. You have no idea of the situation you mocked (the loss of close relatives) and how they may have affected me. Fortunately, and it could easily have been otherwise, I am a pretty emotionally resilient person and couldn't give a shit about what a stranger might say but I feel you did over-step the mark of reasonable discussion.

Creating debate is good, using it as an excuse to be unpleasant is less so.

I think it's been a useful debate and I'm sorry if I seemed a little harsh. I certainly did not want to denigrate anybody. As I say, it is a critical debate that I've had with myself as a climber (and several people above, like Robert Durran, have noted that). I'm away for most of today, but will in time put some further thoughts, or some kind of further explanation of what i meant, in my blog. For the moment, can I simply say what I really like about your well-crafted video: that you are very focussed, as you say a doer rather than a dreamer - that you have really extended yourself, found you are capable of climbing better than you ever realised, and that you've inspired huge numbers of other people. Right at the centre of 'the meaning of life' (hope this doesn't sound too pompous) has to be the whole business of having dreams and turning them into realities. And this you have most certainly done.

Gordon wrote

"I present it simply as a counter-argument. I’m not saying I’m right; I just want to express a worry or unease that I have with Nate’s argument. Because I think its underlying premisses need to be looked at critically."

doesn't sound like 'overstepping the mark of reasonable discussion'

A lot of people seem to be unable to read and when they can they are intent on misunderstanding.  It's this social media thing it makes it all too convenient.

Al

I was referring more to the blog content. Caveats don't necessarily make less-reasonable content reasonable. 

Either way there are no hard feelings my end.

In reply to Gordon Stainsforth:

Thank you for the kinder words you have put there - I do put effort into this content at times. 

The core question of your debate I do think is reasonable and I am always open to discussion in this way - it is valuable for the formation of my own opinions.

With social media creating 'troughs' of opinion, in which it is very easy to sit without exposure to counter argument, I certainly value broader discussions.

Check out his van build video - which I must say was way ahead of the curve - hence how successful it was. 

His parents address however is definitely not tower hamlets !! If go so far as to say I would happily sleep in their workshop !! 

I think people were referring to this in his blog, like Nate said, no harm no foul but uneccessary:

"Apparently, while he was on his quest for ever higher numbers, he lost his grandparents … Gosh, life’s tough."

Haha, not the hamlets. A village small enough to almost be a hamlet in Cornwall though. 

I'd seen that video and knew that. At least, I remember there being a fancy workshop. I don't remember him saying it was at his parents, but maybe it was. Maybe Groucho remembers all this too. 

I don't think it necessarily alters anything though, in terms of the risk he took and the safety net he had. At his age,  he may well not have wanted to go back and live with his parents, or they have him back with them, and once off on his climbing odyssey he had a van, which he could have lived in until he got a job if it all fell apart, or slept at a mate's place. By that age, your parents often aren't your only backstop option.

The van build video is very good, my van stole many of his ideas! 

This. One of the things I loved about climbing culture was a deep and simple shared interest and a non-judgemental bond with fellow climbers. Dole climbers, feckless hippies, sweary fighty workies, trustafarians and posh boys often all mixed and got on with no problems. Maybe not easy bedfellows in their respective home environments but in a hut, tent or with a bottle of rum under a bridge all was good.  I'm wondering how many of Natetan's older detractors had an opinion of the Peak/Wales/Onich dole scenes and the Alpine shoplifters and if it differs from their view of N?

It is mentioned in the video - as he has to shift his families dog which seems reluctant to move from sleeping on the floor. Made me smile. Great vid by the way

Throughout his videos incl the ones with his brother the theme of his family as a whole being loving and supportive of one another is strongly present. I disagree about your point about his safety net - Supportive family (in medicine anyway) trumps others, not to say your point is incorrect though. I guess I’m being a pedant- on UKC too! 

In her Scottish accent, my Grandma used to say that people were 'full of chewed breeeed', which seems apposite here for some of his detractors. It all rather reminds me of the 'Four Yorkshiremen' sketch.

Lots of jealous f*ckers on here that wished they did it keep the vids up, cheers!

I would not count myself as one of his older detractors although I have urged some caution.  With regard to climbers on the dole back in the day.  If they were on the dole due to circumstances beyond their control they have my sympathy and support but there is no defence for stealing.  I am aware that Brits had a reputation for shop lifting back then and it made me feel ashamed to be British.

Al

Bet you were a bundle of laughs on Snells Field. 

Good on yer Nate. Getting out there and doing it. Great video. You have the got the rest of your life to do the boring work stuff. 

I don't see any. Or detractors. Just some people engaging in discussion. It amazes me how often people get criticised on here for engaging in discussion. That is, after all, what a discussion forum is for I presume.

The comedians were the worst culprits   Never stayed on Snells Field.  My climbing trip was also the family holiday so I needed somewhere more civilised.

Al

If you're not a thief then you're not fun to be with?

Do you think that it's simply discussing things that people are criticised for, or could it also be the way things are put? 

honest and inspiring — enjoyed that

Occasionally. But there just seem to be a lot of people on here who would like everything to be left unexamined. Typically the "Why can't you just congratulate <somebody> on their ascent of <some route>?" brigade.

When looking for fulfilment/a purpose/pondering the meaning of life outside of climbing, I eventually decided that one could be said to have a duty to contribute 'something' to society. It's a personal choice, of course, what one does in life, and how much people who only contribute through inspiring others to go on adventures could be argued about for a long time - with their contribution being seen as being anything between 'Nothing much at all' to 'Valuable towards helping people to strive to follow their dreams and to feel alive, which is something we all must feel during the short time we are here'.

I think there's an element of people wishing they could do similar to the OP, like you suggest, but some of it could be down to people genuinely thinking it's only a 'surface' or 'superficial' thing he is doing, too. For my own part, I did feel a twinge of envy on seeing the OP's video(s),  but that's entirely my own problem rather than his (with it being up to me to do more stuff).

Interesting thread and a lot of perspective on what constitutes society and contributing to same.

Those are big and increasingly urgent questions, too. The machine that we have become is not in general terms doing much good in terms of human satisfaction, happiness or well-being. More fundamentally, it is working directly against the best interests of everyone on the planet: driving environmental degradation, extinction and a gradual but inevitable breakdown of the relatively stable climate of the past few thousand years. The sum product of all this activity has been to present Earth with an atmospheric composition last encountered during the Pliocene (5.33-2.58 million years ago, before the onset of the glacial-interglacial cycles). Because all physical systems head naturally towards equilibrium, we can in due course expect a fully Pliocene climate to develop, even if that shift takes centuries.

On that basis alone, rejecting the machine and seeking other ways certainly has its appeals and spending all your life in support of this ultimately destructive system, equally certainly, has very limited merits. Good luck!

PS - not a millenial - born in the early 1960s and the more I have seen going on over the years, the greater the above realisations have become .

I enjoyed the video and it's obviously a lifestyle choice that looks great. If you can also make money out of it then that's great. Most won't though and the decision on whether to buy an over priced pile of bricks or travel and fund quitting work is a little more complex. For some it could mean decades of renting and housing insecurity later in life. Videos like this are like adverts to fund quite a high cost travel and climbing lifestyle. I can see that if I was watching YouTube 20 years ago I could easily have been tempted to make very different decisions over spending money on a house or travel. I'm very grateful i went for the pile of bricks route. Its an interesting thread though. Memories and experiences are priceless and I hope you would offer the same advice in 10 years time. 

I think that is the next challenge for me... after a few years without pressure to make money -is it possible to build revenue channels to make a solid financial future while still doing what I want/where I want.

Definitely not a small challenge but I think the foundations are there and it is just a matter of being quite entrepreneurial and being very efficient with time.

I imagine achieving that would make you quite successful in whatever you pursue.

Really good vid. Well done and definitely inspiring. It's a nice little reference piece for anyone considering taking the plunge.

But I can also see how it would make some people jealous too. It made me jealous. For those who have chosen a more conventional path, full time work, boring job, mortgage etc. it's gonna be kind of: "Sh*t, why didn't I do that with my life instead?" At that point they'll have to justify what they're doing and a typical way is to take the moral high ground, invoke the protestant work ethic, denigrate what you're doing etc..

That's not a criticism of your vid though. I think there's no way round it. Show people the good life and some will inevitably get jealous, probably more annoyed with themselves for not doing the same. But the other side is the reason you made it was to inspire people. I'm sure it will do that, possibly for many years to come.

I've spent a good part of my adult life climbing full time and never really had a proper job. I've never regretted it. My only regret is that I didn't do even more climbing. So I'd say keep at as long as possible, as long as it makes you happy. Climbing is an amazing thing in that it never seems to get old.

It is a massive and unfair assumption that you and others seem to be making that the people questioning whether full time climbing is always a good choice are motivated by jealousy rather than other considerations.

Thanks.. this is mostly what I hoped for!

Not directed at you specially - but in general a lot of assumptions have been made in this thread (when it would be easy to just ask questions first).  The ironic thing is that the people who make the most assumptions seem to get the most butthurt when they get so much of a whiff of the same being done to them.

I thought millennialist were mean to be the  snowflake generation

As soon as I head the word 'millenial' or 'snowflake' I zone out to be honest. Maybe not in this case but it's usually followed by something offensive about ~14 million people. 

Is the purpose of this post to promote this video so you can get enough views to pay for your croissants?

Sure, there has been misunderstanding and misrepresentation on both sides of the debate. It clearly touches a nerve when you share your climbing-centric way of life and means of making a living, because it makes other question their own choices and identity. 

Fundamentally, I don’t really see a contradiction between what you’be actually said and the ‘opposing’ viewpoint. You’ve depicted how you’ve managed to focus on climbing and sustain it, documenting the experiences you’ve had. You’ve been pretty honest in how you have created and exploited a particular set of circumstances and are open to this changing in the future.

The riposte I think comes from the (not necessarily intentional) subtext or inferences that can be drawn from your video: the idea that everybody could go off and make a life for themselves as a climbing/ YouTube personality in whatever way shape or form is eminently not possible. The fact that you still do need to worry about income, how to adapt to market wants etc. shows that this is hardly a revolutionary escape from modern life.

Similarly, the implication (again, not necessarily one you meant) that we could all be leaving behind a staid life of conformity for high adventure and meaning has irked some. I agree with PeakDjs comments above: work and family life have challenged and stretched me in ways that climbing never could, although of course more climbing would be great it would - for me - mean losing a lot of other stuff that is incredibly important.

Overall, I think it’s up to each person to find their own way in life generally and explore what climbing will be for them. My climbing world and horizons are much smaller than yours but I don’t feel envious because the climbing I do is fulfilling and full of meaning for me. 

Don't forget 'butthurt'. That's 3 entries for bullshit bingo right there.

I love the word butthurt - I’d would say as a word it’s in a different category to millennial or snowflake as it is non m-discriminatory and can be used for anyone.

I enjoyed your video dude. Well done on following your passion!

I totally agree. A family / conventional lifestyle can obviously be fulfilling and stretch you greatly.

I don't think I intended to suggest anyone can or should just drop everything and go climbing - more it was to give an idea of what people can expect in terms of improvement if they do. 

I don't think everyone can turn such a lifestyle it into a revenue channel (especially from climbing content - well they can but to guarantee success is a vast amount of work with little initial gain) however if you have not made too many commitments (or ones you cannot get out of) most people can save/take a year or so to climb full time. Sure you have to sacrifice a little to do it but a year in a van is pretty cheap!

 

Out of context, you missed out the preceding paragraph. 

A summary presumably, well, summarises what one is saying, and, as such ought to stand alone. Anyway, I don't see anything in the preceeding paragraph which suggests it doesn't.

I actually thought it was a good video which has resulted in a very interesting and mostly constructive discussion. It is just a pity that some people seem to have strangely taken any discussion as criticism, jealousy etc.

Best reply yet.

The van lifestyle (though I dislike that word 'lifestyle', what about just 'life'?) on offer when I was younger and more commitment free was that of the crustie (new age traveller) in a (cliche) converted ambulance. No social media then to promote it (thankfully) though plenty of main stream media demonizing it. Very tempting at the time but there was insufficient push from my life then (I worked but with no pressure, and while you can go climbing 2 out of every 3 days, you can't clubbing and my long weekends were as much as I wanted to, or could, subject myself too. 

I 'found' climbing at 40. Never even on my radar until late 30s and by then I had made some commitments. In fact, even the last few years have had me re-appraise the place of climbing in my life and its now lower down than before. I won't even say it is especially fulfilling right now (finding a regular lead partner is a frustrating unfinished task) but its now only a few years until I can drop a day a week at work and can spend more time in the 'wild', which may involve some climbing.

This is covered, at length, up-thread.

I made this video mostly to share my process and give others - who may be considering, however lightly, quitting and pursuing climbing an idea of what could happen. (Summary; DO IT!)

He didn't say 'anyone' should just drop everything and go climbing.
He specifically aims his 'Do it' statement at those who are considering it. There is a subtle difference. 

Extremely subtle maybe - it's hardly going to apply to anyone who has not toyed with the idea!

Not that subtle.

if you’re thinking of doing it, why not? Totally give it a bash. A year or two out won’t affect your career that much while in terms of life experience it may rank as one of the best things you do with your time. 

If you’re not thinking of committing for a while, would never want to take time off to climb or actually can’t.. then the video is not really aimed at you. 

Perhaps worth mentioning that I know a few people with houses, careers and children who have taken off on year or longer trips. Usually the children homeschool while onsighting 8a for breakfast

Anyone who packs in their job to go climbing based solely on a video they watched on the internet they deserve everything they get, economic Darwinism (let's face it, such people don't exist so it's a pointless discussing whether the video tells us to do that or not).

I've actually twice taken time off unpaid to go climbing (for a year and for six months), but I only did so because I was able to go back to my job - I don't think I would have with the insecurity of having to look for a new job which might not have been as good or so well located. So I don't think it is as simple as saying it won't affect your career. It also taught me that my head couldn't really handle a whole year of aspiring to stressful alpine stuff (though that side of it was cut short by an accident). Cragging might have been different though. However I can imagine spending extended periods living out of a car or van once I've retired and work/career is no longer an issue (hopefully reasonably soon )

Makes sense, alpine is stressful. I found a last year of trad/alpine/bigwall to be quite enough to be fantasising about clipping a nice bolt knowing there was another one in a couple of meters.

Not all jobs are equal or as easily replaced. I do think that there can be a scarcity mindset around employment (justified during some periods of time) but again it massively depends on your sector, role and your employability within them. Being a bit older I have some career experience banked which I can use if required to work in the ‘real world’ again if need be.

That said, if you’re doing a shitty job and end up with no savings at the end of the year you might as well just do shitty jobs in amazing places as you travel - have an amazing time - and end up with no money at the end of the year!

Good luck with the retirement.. see you in Spain :P

I'm in danger of talking rubbish or repeating others as I haven't read all the posts. But I think this too often gets discussed as do I give up shitty job and go climbing? Rather than changing one thing at a time. i.e go find an awesome job first. Then decide if uou want to give that up to go climbing. There are so many jobs that are just too great to even consider giving up for climbing. Many of which give a lot of time for climbing

During the life of this thread, the view count on the video has increased by something like 8000. Mission accomplished.

See above for UKC view stats / why I posted it here / created it. (UKC driven view count is negligible - prob as you have to click a link to play). 

Also, 8000 views is next to nothing.

It’s not a binary choice. You can take a few years off and then go on to have a great career. You can get a good job, take a break, go back to a good job. If you are good at what you do then someone will always employ you. Or you can just employ yourself.

But.. a shitty job is a shitty job. No loss in ditching that for a better lifestyle - especially if both leave you broke at the end of the year.

Are you currently contributing to a pension or similar investment to draw on in retirement? If not why? How do you plan to fund your retirement*

*old age when you can't / don't want to work.

Why? I'm just making a statement about human nature really. Hard to believe that any keen climber who is not already living a similar life to Nate won't be at least a little bit jealous. As I said above I certainly am.

I've spent quite a bit of time abroad in the past and I absolutely loved it. The rock and routes are fantastic, the weather is mostly great and it's a really nice, chilled, communal life style, living away from the cities and having just climbing to focus on. Don't think I've finished a trip where I didn't want to stay longer.

i think you have exactly the attitude required to make this work, and that when you decide you've had enough, go be successful at something else

You have missed the point. Obviously climbers will be always, in a way, be envious of someone doing more climbing than then, but that does not mean that their comments in this discussion are in any way criticism or sour grapes born of jealousy and should be ignored.

It's really hard to know whether you'll find a job anything like awesome until you've tried it. And switching jobs until you find one might require a lot of time, money and effort, and ultimately be futile. Finding an awesome job isn't a choice you can just make, you can only try. Giving up a job to just climb is a choice people in the right circumstances can make. I think that's the difference. And with a bit of application getting back into a career shouldn't be too hard for most. Why not give it a try, if circumstances allow? Which I think is the gist of the video.

This bit makes no sense.

Nonsense. It's a balance.

I totally agree with that. I don't think <i>all</i> comments are sour grapes. But some clearly come across that way. Other's have picked up on this too. My point is that that is also normal and to be expected and understood.

There's a big difference to being genuinely curious and being critical. Asking questions like will it work for me, etc. are one thing. Insinuating that such a lifestyle is unethical or that someone is a spoilt brat because all they have to worry is the death of their grandparents is something else. The former is looking for inspiration whilst the latter is attempting to condemn. And that raises the question as to why anyone would want to condemn someone for having a good life and sharing their experiences with others?

I'd also comment that I don't think I don't aspire to such a lifestyle  - I've actively made my own choices about how I want to live , where I want to live and what my priorities are. But I'm darned if I'm going to bitch about someone else making that choice and for me too many of the arguments here do sound like sour grapes.

Dot on. Lad seems to be having a good time and being canny with it. If people want to emulate that’s great, if not then that’s cool too. Trying to criticise the social implications of his actions seems odd; I think there are more pressing issues!

I don't think anyone is criticising. Just pointing out that each person has to make their own choices how to live their life "meaningfully" and sustainably and so there are things to consider. Of course one person's choice has little impact in the grand scheme of things, but that doesn't mean these choices don't matter in a person's own life.

Agree with this also, we’re all on our own path to find meaning and happiness. It’s important to be realistic and try to imagine what the future will bring, but a lot of the stuff on here about trust funds and home address and not contributing does come across as pretty sour. 

I thought that stuff mainly humourous!

Very true. I guess I think too few people even try.

I really like that point. And think it very well observed. The effect that they could

Absolutely.