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Belaying a climber whilst sat down, is this ok?

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 olddirtydoggy 20 May 2018

I'm one of those trad climbers who likes to look down at my belayer and see a sharp look of 'I'm ready for anything'. Last year I cut a partner loose as I noticed he was looking elsewhere too much and not controlling the rope at his device because he was getting too easily distracted. The bottom line was, I didn't feel safe climbing with him.

Now, we all have our preferences and a debate has come up about belaying sat down. Personally I don't like to see that, if somebody is holding my life I want to see them on their feet and giving me 100% and in return I'll give the same back. 2 questions in relation to cragging single pitch on a lead climb,

1, Is it safe belaying sat down at the base of a crag?

2, Regardless of the truth of question 1, is it reasonable for the lead climber to request the belayer to stand?

7
 tehmarks 20 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

If their braking hand isn't obstructed, they're not going to be launched wildly into the wall if you fall and they're paying attention, why wouldn't it be?

3
 CragRat11 20 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

If they are belaying me it’s usually a mate I trust. Consequently I trust them to sit down when they feel it’s appropriate. 

Presumably if you are climbing multipitch routes they would be sitting down on a ledge anyway as you get higher up, what’s the difference?

5
 spenser 20 May 2018
In reply to CragRat11:

In that case your anchor should have at least 1 piece good for an upward pull.

I have occasionally been known to sit down while belaying (note I am heavier than nearly all of my partners), however having slumped onto a piece of gear (ropes were tight and everything) and gone 3-4 m due to lifting a belayer who was sitting down (admittedly lighter than me) I have now pretty much reserved it for occasions where I am anchored into position.

11
OP olddirtydoggy 20 May 2018
In reply to CragRat11:

Funny you mention that as the belayer did say that. It's a fair point but from my point of view it's not just the practical safety but how alert my belayer looks, especially if I'm climbing on the edge of my grade.

5
 CragRat11 20 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

It’s all personal preference I guess. I’m pretty relaxed about it.....but i’ve never been dropped!

 Bob Kemp 20 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Question 2 first: as with all such things, climb with people you feel safe with, and if you don't like what they do, say something (kindly) or climb with someone else. As for question 1, I don't know what the evidence is. I wonder how many accidents have actually been caused by the belayer sitting down? 

In reply to CragRat11:

> Presumably if you are climbing multipitch routes they would be sitting down on a ledge anyway as you get higher up, what’s the difference?

The difference is between doing something less safe because it is the only option and doing something less safe by choice.

If you are standing up you are able to move about to deal with an emerging situation.   If you are sitting down you are basically acting as a glorified sandbag.   

 

9
 zv 20 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Depends, belaying like this on a route within my comfort zone - don't think I would mind too much. 

Pushing my grade or just trying a hard route - no way. I think the belayer is a huge part of success on a route, pretty much the only way to give sufficient slack for quick clips on pumpy ground is to move about. 

Additionally rope management low down is crucial for safety, making sure the belayer's rope isn't directly below you on overhanging ground so you wouldn't hit it and invert or spin and smash the rock. 

2
 Bob Kemp 20 May 2018
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Yes, and emerging situations may include falling objects. 

In reply to olddirtydoggy:

1. Mostly. When the climber is well away from the ground or a shelf, the belayer can relax, and often there is not even a point in the belayer looking up. But, as always, it depends.

Once aiding a route, I was about to make a traversing move from a safeish bat hook to a dicey bat hook placed on a tiny crystal, when I looked down at my belayer 10-15 m below. I found him absorbed reading his e-book. A quick risk assessment ran through my head and I decided not to disturb him. Of course it popped, and of course he caught me brilliantly. He used a grigri, and a tube would not have saved me.

Once in a gym, a mate and I were discussing belaying safety. There was an overhanging route where you at the crux would risk a pendulum onto a protruding macro. He pointed out, that if he fell, I should let him fall below the macro before locking my belay device. He fell, I followed his request and him he pendulated just under the infamous macro. I used an atc. With a grigri or without being totally focused, I would not have been able to safely modulate his fall.

2. Yes. Whenever a climber wants it, a belayer has be alert, stand up, give slack, pay out rope or what ever. This is true even on a sport route with no real danger. And if you are pushing your grade, there is the mental aspect too. Then you want all the support, karma and good vibes you can get.

 

Post edited at 02:36
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 summo 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

You should be positioned so you are tight and in line with anchors. Have sufficient free space to move your arms and not be pushed or swing to the side if you take the load. What is best will be dictated by the stance. 

You should of course be paying attention but you don't need constant eye contact to do this. 

 alan moore 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

1. Sitting is a bit awkward and even harder on the neck. Lying down is probably better! That David Jones book where the sun never stops shining shows all the belayers sunbathing on their backs and looking directly up at the leader.

2. Only climb with people who you wouldn't ask to improve their belay technique.

1
 Mr. Lee 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I think watching the belayer makes almost no difference to my belaying on most routes. Constantly watching somebody actually sounds quite exhausting. On long routes my partner might be our of sight anyway. As long as I'm controlling the rope properly that's what matters. I see some climbers constantly shouting 'watch me' but nearly always it's a sign of the leader's fear of falling rather than due anything the belayer is doing wrong. If you're getting worked up about a partner sitting down then maybe there is a general fear of falling at play? I obviously don't know you but I'm just putting the idea out there.

2
 TonyB 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I think it's very reasonable to discuss with the belayer how you'd like to be belayed, where you might fall, what the consequence of the fall would be, and how you both think it would best for the belayer to react.

I mostly sport climb. I think saying things like, "could you stand over there to the left at the beginning as I will have to step over the rope" is pretty normal. If there is a ledge or a large feature to hit, I would probably say something like, "I really don't want to hit that ledge after the fifth bolt, do you think you could give me a more dynamic catch to make sure I clear the ledge if I fall off".

I think if you agree these things before you start to climb, everyone then knows what should happen. I don't think I would tell my belayer what they should or shouldn't be doing, but I think it's fair to say how you'd like to be belayed. Then you can discuss it.

Out of curiosity, how are they sitting? Do they bring a deckchair to the crag? I have to say, I think if you put a deckchair in the correct place, I think you could belay exceedingly well, and be up in an instant if you needed to pay slack fast. I think if the belayer was sat cross legged on the floor that might not be so great, but probably more of a problem for them than you, if they were pulled up suddenly.

 

 

1
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Last year I was climbing with a friend and someone I hadn't climbed with before. The new person seemed very competent and the climb wasn't difficult (probably could have soloed it) so I was happy for him to belay me. Didn't notice anything bad, until I got home and was looking through my friends photos and found a photo of him belaying me whilst lying down on a rock like he was at the beach. 

To me belaying is a big responsibility, and I expect whoever does the job to be able to take/give give at any moment (hopefully without me needing to ask), and be prepared for anything to happen. You might deviate from this with a close partner with whom these things have been discussed, but lying down and taking your focus off the leader, especially one you've never climbed with before, to me is a red card offense. 

 

 

1
 jkarran 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

> 1, Is it safe belaying sat down at the base of a crag?

> 2, Regardless of the truth of question 1, is it reasonable for the lead climber to request the belayer to stand?

1: Perfectly safe IMO so long as they've not moved miles out of position just to get a seat, same as it would be if they were sat on a ledge 30m up.

2: Depends how many mates/partners you can afford to risk losing.

jk

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 Robert Durran 21 May 2018
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

> Didn't notice anything bad, until I got home and was looking through my friends photos and found a photo of him belaying me whilst lying down on a rock like he was at the beach. 

Why should that necessarily be a problem? It would mean they would naturally be looking up at you rather than anywhere else. Obviously they need to be in a position to lock off the plate and they mustn't actually fall asleep though.

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 GridNorth 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Sometimes after a long hard day it can be quite tiring to stay on your feet the whole time and this tiredness could be a distraction.  If the belayer is still attentive whilst sitting I would not have an issue.  I often sit but only when the rock lends itself to it i.e. not interfering with the rope or the belayer in any way.

Under those circumstances if you politely asked me to stand I would politely ask you to find another belayer

Al

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 Jim 1003 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I notice you don't say you discussed the issue with the person in your OP, so probs you have communication issues with partners. Most people would give a reminder, and anyway if your trad climbing the belayer cant see you half the time...sure you didn't just make the whole thing up, why cant you just work it out for yourself instead of posting on the internet?

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 Phil West 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I feel it's most important to:

1) Pay attention to your leader. When they say "Watch me" they should only be saying it for psychological reasons, not because you are staring vacantly across the countryside and they want you to concentrate on the job at hand. It's like driving, when you're behind the wheel, driving comes first, conversations, music, ice creams, etc come second.

2) Ensure you are keeping as straight a line as possible between your belay device and the leader's pro. I often see people belaying by standing (or sitting) ten feet away from the crag. Good luck when the leader falls off because the rope will take the straightest line between the top piece of pro and the belay device and any nuts in between will be rotated accordingly. That'll likely unzip all your pro.

I always consider my position as belayer as a functioning part of the team. I'm not just there to hold the rope, I need to pay attention to what the leader is doing, has done and will do. I will spot the leader on the start of a route before any pro is placed. I will ensure the ropes run free, giving slack or tight as required (pre-empting this helps too). I will help the ropes stay clear of the leader's legs or heels to help make sure they don't get caught and flipped should they fall. On a line which is likely to be protected by nuts, I often stand with my non-braking arm or my back against the rock to ensure that nothing gets unzipped. If it's not possible to stand so close, my partner and I will ensure we have a piece of gear with an outward pull somewhere between waist and head-height. Anything I can do to mitigate the consequences of a fall, I will do. It's my job.

If I get a sore neck, or the sun is in my eyes, it's a bit tough really. Put up with it as best you can in the circumstances. If you can do all the above and the best place to be is seated, then that's fine. If you prefer to rock up to Stanage and find the comfiest belay seat to smoke a fag on, irrespective of how it suits the climb itself, then I don't think that is fine. I would ask my belayer to stand close in, stand on the opposite side of me, stand up, lie down, whatever it takes basically.

 jon 21 May 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

Well he was posing for photos. If I fell he could have been pulled off his rock, lost balance, been pulled into the face, given me a far too 'dynamic' fall etc. 

I can't see any reasonable reason you wouldn't be standing observing the leader, keeping an eye out for falling rocks/gear, and be braced for a strong upwards pull or to take immediately in case of imminent fall. If you don't want that then fine, but you shouldn't assume someone else is fine with your risk taking. 

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 krikoman 21 May 2018
 GrahamD 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

There are places I feel safer belaying sitting down (out of rock fall fall line, obviously) because the ground is very uneven.  Bottom of the Boulder Ruckle for one, where losing your footing could mean breaking your leg !

 HeMa 21 May 2018
In reply to spenser:

> I have occasionally been known to sit down while belaying (note I am heavier than nearly all of my partners), however having slumped onto a piece of gear (ropes were tight and everything) and gone 3-4 m due to lifting a belayer who was sitting down (admittedly lighter than me) I have now pretty much reserved it for occasions where I am anchored into position.

Are you saying that stading up makes the belayer heavier? As in which weighs more, a kilo of feathers or a kilo of lead?

 trouserburp 21 May 2018
In reply to HeMa:

If you're standing you are a lot more able to resist some of the shock and weight e.g. bracing against the wall. So yes if you're sitting you're a kilo of feathers

I'm ok with them half-sitting on a boulder - preferably not too far out from the rock. Definitely ok to ask the belayer not to sit if you want them at 100%

1
 jkarran 21 May 2018
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

> I can't see any reasonable reason you wouldn't be standing observing the leader, keeping an eye out for falling rocks/gear, and be braced for a strong upwards pull or to take immediately in case of imminent fall. If you don't want that then fine, but you shouldn't assume someone else is fine with your risk taking. 

There are plenty of good reasons.

Not standing: Sore feet or uneven footing. Tired. Getting into shade. Simply no need to be stood

Keeping an eye out: You often can't see so you rely on touch and weather willing, vocal signals. Staring up for hours is draining, for many it hurts hurts and often adds little to no security

Falling rocks and gear: Tend to come with warnings. Can often better be avoided with planning rather than reactively

Braced: Only makes sense where there's a significant horizontal component of force, sitting in close may help negate that and does not anyway preclude being braced where a horizontal force cannot be eliminated.

Taking in: Not precluded by sitting, nor often necessary if belaying carefully to begin with. Where it is necessary running/falling/sitting back tends to be best so sitting is obviously inappropriate but that's pretty niche.

It's one of those things where you draw on experience to exercise good judgement, to assess and balance risks. This is core to climbing safely, not the application of blanket rules.

jk

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OP olddirtydoggy 21 May 2018

Some interesting observations. Somebody made a good point that it could be more to do with my fear of falling, rather than how able my belayer is sat down. I would agree that the mind game is a large part of it and what I see going on below me instills confidence to boldly move forwards.

It has also been suggested that I should just lump how my belayer chooses position themselves. Personally I'd accomodate any reasonable requests from the climber as long as they are polite and don't put either of us at risk.

OP olddirtydoggy 21 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

I said in my OP that we'd had a debate on this topic, should I have taken a transcript of notes with the persons involved to prove the conversation had taken place?

Usually on single pitch cragging you can see the belayer. Not sure what crags you might be climbing?

I reserve the right to post anything climbing related on a climbing forum as long as I post it respectfully and don't degrade my partners or members of this fine community.

I hope that answers your points.

 Oceanrower 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

This is, quite clearly, all you need to know about belaying.

 

youtube.com/watch?v=NJHVgkchcbw&

OP olddirtydoggy 21 May 2018
In reply to Oceanrower:

I remember that vid coming out. Interestingly he never sits!

 HeMa 21 May 2018
In reply to trouserburp:

> If you're standing you are a lot more able to resist some of the shock and weight e.g. bracing against the wall. So yes if you're sitting you're a kilo of feathers

you may wish to recap physics 101 for a bit.

 

hint, sitting or standing up makes no difference at all. Rope management plays a much more important role, and it can be achieved both sitting or standing.

 

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In reply to Oceanrower:

The Petzl guy is a belayer only. What good is he on pitch 2?

In reply to jkarran:

> Not standing: Sore feet or uneven footing. Tired. Getting into shade. Simply no need to be stood

If standing up is that hard, you're really going to struggle on the next pitch. 

> Staring up for hours is draining

You don't have to stare up, but could still be in a safer position. If it's that bad buy belay glasses. 

> Falling rocks and gear: Tend to come with warnings.

You're saying watching the leader is no safer than lying down and posing for photos?

> Braced: Only makes sense where there's a significant horizontal component of force

There was in this case, the rock was not that close to the wall and even if you were fairly close to the wall, lying down is not going to be a good position to be in when the rope drags you head first into the wall and you can't stop it because you were lying down!

> Taking in: Not precluded by sitting, nor often necessary if belaying carefully to begin with. 

Moving your position is one of the easiest and quickest ways to give slack. No way can you give slack half as fast lying down. When I'm pumped and need slack I don't give a **** how tired your feet are, I'm not going to break my legs falling into the ledge below because my belayer wasn't paying enough attention.  

> It's one of those things where you draw on experience to exercise good judgement, to assess and balance risks. This is core to climbing safely, not the application of blanket rules.

I said in my original post that it's not a blanket rule but something to be discussed with your partner. I don't care if you're happy with your belayer doing handstands, but personally I'd rather have as fully attentive and prepared belayer as possible.   

 

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 profitofdoom 21 May 2018
 LeeWood 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

My 13yr old lad was belaying me seated today - no worries. His mind wanders a bit -  I try to give him good clear communication - when I want rope to clip, rock features, flora/fauna, what the difficulties are - all useful for safety but further to inform and even entertain - stimulate and hold his attention.

Generally whether your belayer is sitting, standing or eating a sandwich may not matter - rather your confidence should come from rope control, for which it is reasonable to dish out orders.

 springfall2008 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Personally I'd say only for sitting at the top of a pitch belaying up the second. For belaying the leader you should stand. I can't see how you can control giving out slack easily while seated, and also if you are pulled upwards you are likely to fall over.

 

 

3
 Timmd 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I guess when at the bottom of the crag, you need to be fairly close to the rock to not risk having an outward pull risk lifting any gear 'up and out', which sets me thinking that if there's ever going to be any dropped gear or pieces of rock falling down, a belayer on their feet is probably more able to avoid being hit, which is safer all round for both. 

Given the above, it seems reasonable to me for the leader to ask if the belayer would stand while belaying.

Post edited at 22:26
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 FreshSlate 21 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Sod the climber*. I was belaying on what looked liked a solid sport route when the climber pulled off a microwave sized block plumb-line above my head. I've not heard a panicked shout like it since, "ROCKK!!" said the voice breaking up. 

I literally jumped out of my shoes I had slipped on to the right, a split second before the rock smashed into them. The rock broke in several pieces, a few were still as large as a head. Good to be light on your feet.

*Not really!

Post edited at 23:12
 LeeWood 22 May 2018
In reply to Timmd:

> I guess when at the bottom of the crag, you need to be fairly close to the rock to not risk having an outward pull risk lifting any gear 'up and out',

outward pull will only apply to lowest gear so once the climber is well up its ok; stepping back from the crag enables the second to better survey and learn the moves

5
 jkarran 22 May 2018
In reply to purplemonkeyelephant:

> If standing up is that hard, you're really going to struggle on the next pitch.

Perhaps wait until you're a bit more broken and your feet hurt before being so judgemental. Hopefully you can remain blissfully oblivious of the difficulties others contend with.

> You don't have to stare up, but could still be in a safer position. If it's that bad buy belay glasses. 

Could. Or you could sit somewhere comfortable and belay attentively without staring at the sky for half the day.

> You're saying watching the leader is no safer than lying down and posing for photos?

If I was saying that I'd have said that.

> There was in this case, the rock was not that close to the wall and even if you were fairly close to the wall, lying down is not going to be a good position to be in when the rope drags you head first into the wall and you can't stop it because you were lying down!

Which case? I'm not advocating lying down, holding a fall while lying down imposes a really nasty bending load on the spine and as you say could in some situations lead to a nasty crash. Sitting isn't lying.

> Moving your position is one of the easiest and quickest ways to give slack. No way can you give slack half as fast lying down. When I'm pumped and need slack I don't give a **** how tired your feet are, I'm not going to break my legs falling into the ledge below because my belayer wasn't paying enough attention.  

Some routes require that kind of speedy reactive belaying, some don't. No worries, I'm no keener to climb with you than you with me, I doubt we'd rub along very well given our quite different attitudes.

> I said in my original post that it's not a blanket rule but something to be discussed with your partner. I don't care if you're happy with your belayer doing handstands, but personally I'd rather have as fully attentive and prepared belayer as possible.

As would I though I'd swap 'necessary' for 'possible'. I couldn't care less if they're sitting or standing so long as they can do the job at hand.

jk

 

1
 Robert Durran 22 May 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

> Outward pull will only apply to lowest gear so once the climber is well up its ok.

No it's not; once the lowest piece has lifted out, the next piece becomes the lowest piece and lifts out....... and so on. It has been known for all but the top piece "unzip" - and if that piece then fails..........   It can be a good idea to place a bomber cam low down to prevent this happening. More generally, even poor cams can be placed purely for the purpose of protecting wires.

 

Andy Gamisou 22 May 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

> No it's not; once the lowest piece has lifted out, the next piece becomes the lowest piece and lifts out....... and so on. It has been known for all but the top piece "unzip" - and if that piece then fails.........

I can personally vouch for this scenario, and had an enforced several years out of climbing as a result.

 

 Timmd 22 May 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

> outward pull will only apply to lowest gear..,

As Robert Durran and Andy Gamisou point out, no it won't/doesn't always. 

Post edited at 11:56
 LeeWood 22 May 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

> No it's not; once the lowest piece has lifted out, the next piece becomes the lowest piece and lifts out....... and so on. It has been known for all but the top piece "unzip" - and if that piece then fails..........   It can be a good idea to place a bomber cam low down to prevent this happening. More generally, even poor cams can be placed purely for the purpose of protecting wires.


Well I'm sure this sort of climbing with such dodgy gear may exist BUT

for every increment of height after the 1st gear pulls, the angle becomes less acute and therfore less likely to pull the next. Have you really seen such a phenomena and how often ? Gear unzipping is more likely from above - I've only seen the odd piece pull in my entire experience.

Filling the forum with blue-moon worst case non-eventualities is scare-mongering at its worst.

5
 GrahamD 22 May 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

I know of it happening.  It isn't scaremongering.

 Rick Graham 22 May 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

Otherwise good gear easily unzips if the rope is misaligned. This happens a lot.

Marginal gear can unzip from the top down, this also happens a lot.

Hardly scare mongering, all modern instruction books recommend directional runners and a well placed belayer not too far out from the base.

 Robert Durran 22 May 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

> Filling the forum with blue-moon worst case non-eventualities is scare-mongering at its worst.

No. Dismissing real risks is irresponsible.

This small wire protected route in Pembroke where there is a "crevasse" making it difficult to belay well in is notorious for it: Downward Bound (E4 6a)

 

 Martin Hore 22 May 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

As someone above wisely said, climbing isn't a game with fixed rules that apply in all circumstances. But in general my understanding is that standing close in when belaying from the ground is going to be preferable to standing out, no matter how far up the climb the climber has gone. 

Any gear, whether high or low on the route, is going to experience a roughly horizontal force if the rope goes tight (in a fall, but also when taking in) unless the gear, as extended, is in the direct line and does not bend the rope. If you belay standing out the lowest piece will experience a force slightly up from horizontal, the second piece (if the first piece pulls) slightly less so, and so on. If you belay standing in, there is much greater chance that all the gear will be in the direct line and experience no force at all (except the top piece of course). Most pieces of trad gear are placed with a downward pull in mind and many will not hold if experiencing a horizontal force. That's why it's not uncommon for some, otherwise good, placements to pull out when the rope is taken in. 

The other reason for not belaying standing out is that if the leader falls the belayer will be pulled in, almost inevitably unless the belayer is heavy. This increases the length of the fall and could lead to the belayer losing their grip on the dead rope (more important of course if an ATC or similar is being used).

Martin

 jon 22 May 2018
Andy Gamisou 22 May 2018

In reply to: LeeWood

> Filling the forum with blue-moon worst case non-eventualities is scare-mongering at its worst.

Oh well - my experience must been just a dream

Post edited at 15:07
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 22 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

The biggest problem with the 2nd being sat down is that he can't move quickly if this is required, to get out of the way of falling rock/gear, or to quickly take in/pay our by taking a couple of steps,

 

Chris

 jon 22 May 2018
In reply to Chris Craggs:

> The biggest problem with the 2nd being sat down is that he can't move quickly if this is required, to get out of the way of falling rock/gear, or to quickly take in/pay our by taking a couple of steps,

Or... I remember belaying you at La Gruviera, sitting in a comfy spot a few metres out from the crag. When I lowered you down I was catapulted against the crag and dragged some way up it... and all you said was 'That'll learn yer...'

 

 Carless 22 May 2018
 LeeWood 22 May 2018
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Not at all - so then we have just one case known firsthand, ('and no doubt there are more). In knowledge of this we have

For the plus side - trad leaders pay attention to placements (and instruct belayers to move close as appropriate)

The neg side - is that there's a whole swathe of the climbing world out there who have been forever scared off the trad scene - because 'trad is unreliable'; I know people directly who quote this very instance as there pretext for never trying - 'but they can all unzip in one hit'

Don' get me wrong - I've seen enough runners pop under lateral tension; what I'm disputing is the frequency of multiple zip outs ( > 2 successive ) leading to fatal accidents (or serious).

A chock in itself is not unreliable - but finding and making suitable placements is another matter, and no doubt - as RD comments certain routes are notoriously bad to get good gear in.

2
 jkarran 22 May 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

> Don' get me wrong - I've seen enough runners pop under lateral tension; what I'm disputing is the frequency of multiple zip outs ( > 2 successive ) leading to fatal accidents (or serious).

Where do you mostly climb Lee? I'd wager the experience of someone climbing mainly on Slate, Limestone or Culm would be radically different from someone climbing Grit or Granite.

jk

 

 Robert Durran 22 May 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

>   RD comments certain routes are notoriously bad to get good gear in.

I think you misunderstand. The gear is perfectly good wires. they are notorious because it is difficult or awkward to stand close enough to the rock to prevent "unzipping" (rock crevasse, stream etc). Many other routes no worse protected could "unzip" if you unnecessarily stand out from the rock, which you don't seem to see as a problem. 

 

 LeeWood 22 May 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

Thnx for clarifction - but it would nevertheless have to coincide with rock character - or did the reputation come before the days of micro-cams ? As much as leaders are frustrated by poorly set chocks, I reckon there's an equal number of seconds who curse a chock which was too well seated !

 

 LeeWood 22 May 2018
In reply to jkarran:

> Where do you mostly climb Lee? I'd wager the experience of someone climbing mainly on Slate, Limestone or Culm would be radically different from someone climbing Grit or Granite.

> jk

In fact I don't do much trad these days, limited to the higher summer granite sites. But back in the day before exile I don't remember any gear scares on Comes the Dervish or Big Groove at Gogarth. My greater concern usually related to energy flow ...

 JackM92 23 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

I’m ashamed to admit that once I drifted off to sleep on a warm spring day on Esk Crag whilst belaying. At the time I was sat down...

deep Van Winkle 26 May 2018
In reply to LeeWood:

> Filling the forum with blue-moon worst case non-eventualities is scare-mongering at its worst.

I've signed up to UKC now after having been a long time occasional lurker so as to be able to respond. At Moonarie, Sth Australia in 1976 approaching what I believe might have been someone doing their first ever lead on the classic Gargoyle ***, grade 13 (HS) I witnessed at close range the leader take a ground-fall from about 10m after all of his 4 or 5  medium to large hexes progressively lifted out.

In about the mid '90 if I recollect, about 10 years after having ceased climbing , i was camping overnight at Mt Arapiles to break an interstate journey by car. My wife and I were taking a stroll along the cliffs with me reminiscing heavily, when in the vicinity of Tiger Wall we heard animated loud yelling. I couldn't make sense of it with a word being repeated over and over. I thought it might have been someone's strange nickname or an obscure foreign name. My wife being fluent in German suddenly exclaimed that it was "hilfe", German for help. We then rushed up the slope through the thick wattle growth to emerge at the base of No Future ** 21  (E3), a route I'd been on the FA of, having led up by Kim Carrigan about 15 or more years earlier. A fallen female Swiss climber was lying on the ground with harness still on. Once being told that rescue had been mobilised and seeing immediate life-saving first-aid wasn't required I glanced around to see if there were any obvious signs of gear breakage. None, but there were many runners, all clipped to the rope that lay curled on the ground next to the climber. 6, 8 maybe 10, the impression I had was that there was practically half the rack attached to thr rope as individual runners. On inquiring about the climber's trad experience her partner informed me her background was basically sport climbing.

 

 LeeWood 26 May 2018
In reply to deep Van Winkle:

Its unfortunate that such few horror tales attain such a high profile in this sector of the climbing world; I mean, that they can so undermine Reasonable Risk. We all hear about pile-ups on the motorway ... but no-one stops driving.

On the other hand the tales are there for our benefit - the risk is not trivial, you have to get it right ! and gear has improved considerably since the days of rattly hexes

 oldie 26 May 2018
In reply to olddirtydoggy:

Lots of valid reasons to stand given previously eg responding appropriately to hold fall and avoiding falling rock.

But as ever it depends on the situation eg standing on uneven boulders at base of climb it is possible for a second to fall over and pull the leader off ( obviously he should be belayed to prevent this if possible

In Snowdonia once I was quite high before placing the first runner, pulled in rope to clip and tugged second over......lucky I had a jug with other hand as I briefly had to support him as well as myself.


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