UKC

Who’s the best trad climber at the moment? in your opinion...

Me. Me and me

the one having the most fun... so probably an aussie or Kiwi!

Probably depends if you mean worldwide (in which case has surely got to include some pioneering big wall stuff) or UK. For the latter, the usual response for the last 15-20 years has been "either McCaffie or MacLeod" and I think that probably still stands. 

Dave MacLeod at the present time. Based on the sheer number of hard repeats and new routes, the dedication he puts in to trad climbing is phenomenal.

I think you need two sub categories , on sight and head point.

There is also volume, absolute difficulty and historic, how far ahead of the pack the candidate was at their peak.

In the UK, my top ten would be Brown , Smith Littlejohn  Livesey Fawcett Dawes Allen Cuthbertson   McHaffie Macleod.

The usual suspects.

Franco Cookson

In the UK, for headpointing I'd say Dave Macleod. Can you imagine anyone repeating Echo Wall? Or even To Hell and Back? For onsighting then probably Caff. Although there could be people who are just as good or better who are quietly getting on with it in the background.

P.S. I think James Pearson should be up there somewhere. He is overlooked because of his whole 'E12' thing a while back but who cares if he got a grade wrong? It means nothing; he's actually a fantastic trad climber.

Funny thing about Echo Wall (E10 7a) is that it was done in a year when there was loads of snow above it. Other years it's been virtually snow free above - would have been much easier for Dave in those years - not the climbing, but the overall effort he had to put in with all that snow shovelling.

To Hell and Back has actually been repeated, by Dave Birkett. He only mentioned it a year or so after the fact, so it went more or less completely under the radar.

I tend to associate Pearson with the Peak mainly, that Devon route being an exception as far as his UK new routing went. Certainly on gritstone he's one of the most important figures post 2000, along with Pete Whittaker. 

I never knew Dave Birkett did To Hell and Back! The man is a legend. I think Pearson had done loads of impressive non-grit stuff. He just dropped off the UK radar after the E12 thing happened, and went to live in Austria. I never got the whole 'redemption' thing, he had nothng to apologise for.

That's the thing about EW back then, not just the 8c+ climbing with a death-fall but the days of snow shovelling to even begin. not many others would have done that.

Despite normally being thought of as a sport climber, I think Steve McClure deserves a mention here, with recent(ish) fast ascents and first ascents at E10, and E8 onsights

Rreply to Red Rover:

James Pearson has just repeated tribe too. It’s partially the reason for the post, since he left the uk he has climbed a lot of varied routes. I think he did a ground up accent of an E9 route too.

This topic was meant globally as well, Tommy Cauldwell, Alex honnold, Jacopo Larcher, Nico Fravesse and Sean Villanueva O’Driscoll surely have to be in the mix too.

No Birkett?

11. DB

12 . JB

I reckon Pete Whittaker should be in the mix somewhere. Baron Greenback, that desperate thing at the roaches, Recovery Drink, Century crack, big wall shenanigans etc.

Who's JB? I can only think of the obvious, which you've got as No.1 on the list

Not to mention Dynamics of Change. Be interesting to see how long that thing waits for a repeat...

I suspect he means Jim Birkett

The wait was over about 6 years ago! https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2014/03/big_news_on_the_grit_dynamics_of_ch...

I ran up to Wimberry once to look at that thing and really hit home how mad it is! It was dark and windy which only added to it, savage looking route.

Couldn’t agree more, Tom Randall as well?!

Dave Birkett consistently flies under the radar or tries to, but I consider Mick Lovatt TPM as pretty inspirational climbing what he does at the age he is. 

Best is a very subjective concept in climbing, a VS leader onsighting Right Unconquerable would be a great personal achievement.

Um... we've done it again and got all the way through 25 posts without mentioning a single woman climber, despite some of the best trad climbers in the world being women, e.g. in particular: Hazel Findlay (5.14c trad, first female E9, multiple free ascents of El Capitan), Babsi Zangerl (Alpine Trilogy FFA, multiple El Cap free ascents), and Emma Twyford (first UK female 9a, lots of elite level trad).

McLeod's amazing, but surely Findlay and Zangerl are very close competitors, especially given their bigwall and alpine achievements. Can't believe people would regurgitate Joe Brown, who (sadly) is not even alive, before mentioning really important female climbers. Actually, that parity across genders is one of the exciting things about trad.
 

Local hero's should include Craig Matheson as well. Take a look at his log book!

Took the words right out of my mouth, was just about to suggest Hazel Findlay. As you mentioned her recent ascent of Magic Line alone puts her up there as one of the best in the world right now, I reckon.

The route is graded at 5.14c, but bearing the route has only been climbed by 3 people since 1996 and she's the first without the surname "Kauk", it's clearly a very, very hard route and it's an unbelievable achievement. 

Babsi also very worthy too, though I don't follow her on social media so I'm not as able to point to supporting evidence!

The OP said "Who’s the best trad climber at the moment?"

Carlo Travesi too....

I think you need to consider Simon Nadin. Blew the Sheffield climbing mafia apart onsight and though not applicable was world lead climbing champion.

Displaying our provincialism, we've also not mentioned:

Beth Rodden (e.g. Meltdown, 5.14c trad crack)
Sonnie Trotter (e.g. Cobra Crack, 5.14b trad crack)
Ethan Pringle (5.14c/8c+ trad crack)
Nico Favresse (8c+ trad crack)
Lonnie Kauk (Magic Line redpoint, 5.14c)

 

Got to be Caff.

E7 and E8 onsights impress me way more than anything headpointed.

E

I would have mentioned Beth Rodden, but Meltdown was a few years back now and she's been focussing on other things going on with her life of late (raising children, looking after her long term mental wellbeing) so she's taken a bit of a break from super hard trad for the timebeing.  She's still and always will be an absolute badass nonetheless!

I guess seeing as I suggested HF on the strength of her Magic Line ascent then LK needs to be in there too, but I can't find much of the other hard trad he's done whereas HF has a list as long as my arm.  That's probably just because he's not on my radar as much as he can clearly climb!

Not as informed about the others either, to be fair.  Are these all recent ascents?

OK but the OP was asking about current greats, so how many of those qualify for that? Definitely Nico, not sure about the rest? 

Wow, that one definitely passed me by!

Well done for bringing it up. For sheer variety at the top level (world class cracks, hard big walls, bold UK trad), one could make a solid case for Pete Whittaker and Hazel as being the UK's best trad all-rounders. I personally think pioneering hard new climbs should also be a consideration in discussions such as this, and Hazel certainly ticks that box   

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2017/08/tainted_love_-_new_squamish_e813d_c...

And there were more onsight E4&5 leads in the70;s and 80,s than there are now. It was normal, but the crag stops now if anyone is seen leading a high grade route and none of them ever went on a course or listened to the BMC, except for Nick of course who landed the golden ticket. (Only joking Nick).

https://www.ukclimbing.com/user/profile.php?id=160895

His profile is suitably understated. Genuine contender if winter stuff counts.

Emma Twyford, hands down

Charlton Chestwig could outclimb a gibbon. Is he still doing stuff these days?

I take your point about provincialism, but these aren't real 'trad' grades, are they 🙂

 I really cant think of many sports that come close to having such a small gap between male and female,  In sports like snowboarding, kitesufing, football, tennis, DH mountain biking, motorcross the woman are light years away from the worlds best men, whereas a couple of female climbers have climbed 9b and only 2 males climbers have climbed 9c this is so close! but i see it at the amateur level also, girls are on average only a tiny bit behind the boys,  i really like that about climbing.

James Pearsons latest ascent seems quite remarkable, potentially the most impressive headpoint ever, James has only ever climbed 2 9a routes before but  has just managed to climb 9a/9a+ on trad gear after just 7 lead attempts!

I guess in theory if the gear is bomber and easily placed, then there shouldn't be much difference. But that's just the theory...

It also looks a lot more like JP's bread and butter in terms of climbing. You don't get many sport climbs on that kind of rock. It's more akin to the grit desperates he was climbing as a prodigy than the crimy overhanging limestone that most 9a< sport climbs are.  

In motocross the ladies are reasonably close, Larissa Pappenmeier rode in the the 2019 Shanghai MX2 and was 16th overall. Though as in climbing the difference between the absolute top and the "good" performers is still night and day, 15% slower or 9a isn't pushing towards 10a or worlds best either. 

Totally agree with you mate

What are your own thoughts on who's best? As far as I can tell, you're agreeing with everybody and your best climber is 20+ individuals... 

I’ve agreed with different peoples opinions and comments due to the fact that on first thought it’s always hard to recognise/remember every achievement in climbing.

As well, I wasn’t really sure on who I thought was the best, hence the post. So I’m sorry for not falling out with anyone, try another topic...

I also think it’s hard to say who’s the best climber until someone has climbed every hard trad route in the world, you can also compare using different methods, but my top trad climber would be, Dave McLeod.

I think James Pearson Or Hazel Findlay will take that crown from him though as times go on.

Well done for getting off the fence!

That's an interesting prediction. My take on it is that so far Pearson anyway has singularly failed to do so, at least on the new routes stakes. MacLeod is also so dedicated and cunning when it comes to training and tactics that it almost looks as though the day someone overtakes him on the headpointing scene will be the day he hangs up his boots! (perish the thought)

I don't have much to contribute, but I doubt the 3 top contenders for the world's best trad climber are all British! 

What about Ondra for his audacious repeat of the Dawn wall? It took Tommy 8 years didn't it, and he's no slouch. (Yes I know FA. etc).

They’re in my opinion mate, I’ve stated all the other contenders who I think are at the top level and they come from all over the world. 

I discounted a lot of the Americans as, strictly speaking, those big wall routes aren’t strictly trad. 

I know vast sections use trad gear and you’d never call them sport routes, but they have a lot of bolts in them for the blank parts so I didn’t include them in my thinking.

Likewise I know trad routes have the odd peg or bolt in occasionally, but I guess it’s just a questions of where you saw the line?

You'd hardly call Ondra a 'trad climber'. I certainly think Tommy Caldwell should feature very highly in any thread such as this.

Anyone who onsights Conception or does Bellyfull of Bad Berries second go can probably be described as being a trad climber as well as a sport climber, he boulders as well.

Considering how fast he did Dawn Wall and adapted to the off width climbing, he obviously has potential to be the best, if he wasn’t more interested in climbing things that are physically hard. 
Think he’s also done quite a lot of sketchy stuff above knot gear on the sandstone. 

I suspect this is probably still the case with trad, though it will become less so as elite levels require levels of dedication only available to the professional (or independently wealthy...).

Who knows how many climbers combine elite levels of competence with an aversion to social media. What's Jules Lines doing these days? Ryan Pasquill?

Yes - if there even is a gap at all! I find it exciting because it reveals the richness of climbing in the extent to which it shows that climbing is about the mind, learning and skill - as well as strength and agility. And, with some achievements, it is still also about courage, adventure and curiosity. It definitely complicates any idea that climbing is simply a 'sport'.

Ben Bransby, Neil Gresham, Ben Heason (solo ascent of Paralogism at E7)?? All lead E10 I think and Worth consideration..

Too many isn't there aha!

All very impressive names and achievements, but talking trad, not many apart from MacLeod have done that old traditional route of the Indian Face.

Is that because Indian Face is really really hard or is it just quite a bad one for being able to control the risk? There must be loads of people who can climb a slab that is British 6c even if it is very bold but I don't think many people want to trust their life to all those creaky little flakes. And it takes ages to dry out. That's my very uninformed opinion anyway.

Indian Face is hard because it requires a set of climbing skills at a level that very few climbers possess. Sure, the physical difficulty may be relatively modest, but this is well made up for by needing other important climbing skills at an unusually high level, such as emotional control in a dangerous situation and superb judgement of rock quality. It may be tempting to dismiss these climbers as simply being prepared to roll the dice but I can assure you that such an attitude is completely absent among the vast majority of climbers who do bold hard routes.

I actually think it's had quite a lot of ascents! Must be at least 7?

Fair dos. His natural climbing ability is astounding. Until he gets really into doing trad I'm sure he'll  cope with simply "World's Best Climber". 

Aye 7 in 34 years. That's going some!

Maybe it’s a bit of a crap route.

I wouldn't agree, she was 15th and 16th in each moto,(basically last) finishing 2 laps down in both and only beating some obscure chinese riders, motocross is super tough physically.

It's a lot more than a lot of other E9s have had. Consider all the Birkett routes in the Lakes for instance; has a single one of them had half as many ascents?

But no other E9 has such a history and reputation.  The more (in)famous a route, the more ascents you would expect it to have - so it’s not had that many repeats really.

Yes, and logically I guess it should have more than most, being put up before pretty much all the others (so more time for repeats).

Certainly a fair collection of Chinese also-rans behind her but just being there is a fair achievement, she also beat a HRC works rider though.

MX can't be that hard, I was expert status for six years and I'm just a feeble enduro rider who still can't ride a 450KTM properly.

Fair enough, safe to assume you know more than me! 

No mention of John Dunne who has a couple of E10s to his name. New Statesman and the one in the Mournes!

Might as well bolt it so it gets a bit of traffic then

(joke, obvs)

To be fair, the OP did say "at the moment".

E9 and E8 (worth mentioning The Big Issue and Parthian Shot at E9 alongside them). I love JD but don't think he belongs in this conversation. He's certainly not the best right now and when he was at his peak in the late 80s, you've got to compare him to Dawes who in 86 alone put up Indian Face, Gaia, The Quarryman and End of the Affair. 

There's lots of names like Gresham, McClure, Randall, etc. kicking about in British trad who go out once in a while and do something super impressive but purely for getting out and frequently on-sighting hard trad, there isn't really any beating Caff and Bransby. What's more, they've been doing it for 20 years. 

As noted above, they aren't E10 but he has certainly been responsible for a fair number of brilliant hard routes. I get the impression New Statesman in particular seems to have held up well in terms of difficulty. 

Parthian Shot?  The New Statesman? 

Off topic, as these routes were all first done years ago, but to put the 2 JD's in perspective:

Dawes

Indian Face, 7b

Gaia, 6c+(?) with a 7B boulder by the gear (significantly easier for the tall, which Dawes -obvs- wasn't)

The Quarryman, 7b with a weird "8a" clip-up pitch

End of the Affair, 7a+

Some of the other grit stuff was prob harder.

Dunne

Parthian, 8a+ (now 8b)

Divided Years, 8a+

Big Issue, 8a+

Widdop Wall, 8b

'I fall on the floor and I laughing.' (Paul Simon)

Must have done getting on for 100 routes of 7b or harder. (Can't think of any, at the moment, mind!) Somehow don't quite feel ready for Indian Face.

Maybe a few quick hits at a bouldering wall might do the trick. (Get some power going?) But then again, maybe not. Could be it's best just to stay in the caff, scoff cake, dream of the Idwal slabs and... stay alive.

Mick

P.S. Wasn't 'The Very Big and the Very Small' supposed to be F8c? Or has it slipped to a mere F8b+? Certainly watching that 1986(?) video footage of Mr Dawes with Jerry on the Meltdown made it quite clear who was the better climber (at least on that kind of F9a slippy, slatey stuff.)

Two points. 

1) sport grade doesn't tell the full story, as you well know. Comparing e.g. Indian Face to Big Issue on physical standard alone is silly since that's only one part of the overall difficulty.

2) when they were put up. For some reason I associate Dunne with the 90s and was surprised when I checked and found New Statesman etc were '89. Nevertheless, although harder, the grit routes were a few years later than Dawes'. Does anyone know what the first E9s on grit were?

Of course sport grades don't give the overall 'difficulty' in the way a trad grade does, but it's an interesting perspective. I'd n idea that Widdop Wall was that technically difficult, for instance.

This debate just shows how difficult it is to compare 'trad climbers'

Yeah, back when he was trying Change apparently he also did an onsight first ascent of a trad line of difficulty of about 8a+ but did not really bother to report it (I think he mentioned it in a UKC interview).

Megos flashed the Path 8b+, a very run out trad route in Canada. Although hardly a trad climber, this has got to be one of the most impressive trad achievements. When he gave a talk about it when he was in the UK, he mentioned that before the final crux, the best protection he had was knowing that he can normally flash V10 boulder problems, which is what the upcoming crux was.

For pure trad climbers though, Alex Honnold has got to be up there. 9a climbing ability, with arguably the calmest head and a very impressive global tick list of hard trad routes around the world...including the grit! 

The first E9 on grit was New Statesman. Dunne only gave it E8 but it's been upgraded. 

Surely Steve Mclure is up there?

Dunne must be right up there because on the number of occasions I've seen him climb he certainly seems to be having the most fun...

People seem to be missing the "at the moment" part. We're not talking about people who put up hard routes decades ago. Pete Livesey would have been mentioned if we were.