UKC

(Apologies if this has been done before)

From the Wales roundup on the front page:https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/10/north_wales_new_route_round_up-7260...

Wow, never thought I'd see the day.

Your headline of "Bolts" mischievously escalates what was actually reported in the article , ie replacing existing rotten pegs with stainless steel pegs, some glued in with resin.  This is way short of placing bolts wherever is convenient to convert a trad route into a sport route

Debating the ethics of glued in replacement stainless steel pegs is fine, so please carry on, and I look forward to reading the comments on either side

Misleadingly reporting it as bolting is counter productive

The article itself refers to the pegs as ‘pegs’ and describes them as ‘as close to glue in bolts as you will ever see.’
 

So they are for all intents and purposes bolts and have no place on Gogarth.

Funnily enough this article has sparked a fair few conversations behind the scenes, and as a result it is now on the agenda for the forthcoming BMC North Wales Area Meeting.

That said, I do think that there are benefits from canvassing opinion from further afield, because even though I - like many - don't live in North Wales, I would like to think that we're allowed to have (and express) an opinion. That said, doing so within a single, short post is almost impossible, but here we go...

Firstly it's worth mentioning that these pegs are nothing new. The belay on The Strand has had them in for years and (at least to my knowledge) everyone has been ok with it, partly because of the convenience it affords. I'm not saying that this makes it right, it's more just to highlight that there is a precedent for this (and one that a great many climbers have been complicit within - myself included). However, for me the more recent pegs placed - particularly at Gogarth - fall into two separate categories: those that could be considered crucial and those that aren't.

When it comes to those that aren't, I would argue that the pegs placed within The Cruise, Fifteen Men and a Dead Man's Chest and Citadel are all unnecessary, as alternative protection can - and has been - easy to arrange for many years now (well, easy-ish - I still think The Cruise is totally desperate). If anything, placing the gear is a part of the challenge. None are 'chop routes', insofar as they're not solely reliant on a single peg, and each has a whole lot of natural pro which has been perfectly adequate for a great many ascents.

When it comes to those that are, this is - at least in my eyes - where there's an interesting discussion to be had. Are we against replacement of any kind whatsoever, or are we open to a more sustainable solution? Barbarossa potentially falls into this category, because without its peg (which the FA obviously benefitted from) it is a very, very different route. Rather than being a relatively safe and punchy E6, it becomes a bold and dangerous E7. Whether or not this is a good thing, a bad thing, or just a thing is very much within the eyes of the beholder. Personally, I feel more comfortable with this peg being replaced than those mentioned above, because this one could be considered more necessary and therefore more justifiable (although this is just my view, as the whole thing is clearly up for debate).

It's probably best that I sign off there, because otherwise this will turn from a post into an article, but I'd be interested to hear other people's thoughts on the matter - just remember to keep it respectful please.

 would you do instead? Replace some shitty old pegs with more pegs that will rapidly become shitty and old? It's not exactly grid bolting or even a bolted line. Just replacement of fixed gear with some decay-proof fixed gear that won't rapidly become massive rust streaks.

Your two paragraphs are not mutually supportive. I would add a context to the first paragraph of “as close to bolts as you are likely to get at Gogarth”

 For what it’s worth I think protection  pegs at Gogarth are rather pointless as they only protect the first ascensionists  and those who follow soon after, after which the threat of corrosion makes them too unpredictable. A major limitation on stainless steel pegs is being limited to the original location unlike being by able to place bolts anywhere.

where I am in support of bolts would be the abseil point on Castell Helen where some of the existing pegs have failed this year and therefore the others must be in doubt. I love Gogarth and its trad ethnic. I’ve done over 100 rotes there. Turning the CH abseil into a game of Russian Roulette on a busy Sunday does nothing to support this trad ethic 

I based my response on this part of the article - ‘all these routes had been climbed on-sight without any pegs‘.

Decay proof on a sea cliff is optimistic at best. I think it would be useful to the conversation for the quality of the pegs to be stated. There is as we all presumably know by now stainless steels and stainless steels. If they are just 316 pegs, then I would be dubious as to their longevity. Sure they will be better than carbon steels for a time, but Gogarth being a seacliff, long term are we talking about the same degradation as you would see with standard bolts? 

The article itself refers to the pegs as ‘pegs’ which I took as meaning the author didn’t think that they could accurately be described as pegs but didn’t want to call them bolts.

Agreed, within this particular debate I think that the Castell Helen belay serves to show how a traditional ethic isn't necessarily the purest (i.e. tonnes of tat + old gear, all in one interconnected mess). A more modern take would be a lot more simple, safe and arguably less intrusive.

This is excelent news in my opinion dangerous pegs and tat should be replaced with arguably more discrete and safer options.  which looks worst a manky rusting peg or a stainless steel peg/bolt? 50 pieces of tat that you sling all of in hope that one is good or a single abseil point that is fairly well hidden and easily maintained.

which is also less likely to damage the rock for the future, an old peg that is often replaced by a new peg that will become old and manky in the future or a fresh ageless steel peg/bolt that gets fitted once and lasts for years.

As has been said theyre not grid bolting the place just replacing already in situ hard wear that without it would arguably destroy routes. Unless they are putting peg/bolts in places that could be protected with solid gear I really dont see the issue and would support this in other areas. 

The main difference, as I see it, being that the 'pegs', like pegs, are placed in weaknesses in the rock, ie cracks. Bolts can be placed anywhere and do not require a 'placement' to go into.

This is a big difference. Adding some resin to the equation does make a peg much more ethically complicated, and it's certainly not as simple as saying 'they're bolts'.

That's not to say that I agree with some, or all, of these 'pegs'. 

Yep. I started a thread about it here on UKC a bit over 13 years ago, linking it to this blog post https://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2007/07/superior-ethics-or-littering... that my first visit to Gogarth had inspired. Glad to hear its only this summer that some of pegs failed, although failing pegs at any point isn't a good thing.

I don't really have a dog in this fight as I've already fallen on the only one of the replaced pegs I'm ever going to use but I am very definitely in favour of the replacement. Rusting pegs are a pain in the arse so if someone is bothered to replace them with something sustainable then all power to them. 

If the consensus (the consensus should be of knowledgeable Gogarth climbers) is against them then it should be across the board. No pegs on new routes, no replacement of pegs at all (not just no replacement of pegs with these superior properties) and definitely no two tier system like this:

"Personally, I feel more comfortable with this peg being replaced than those mentioned above, because this one could be considered more necessary and therefore more justifiable (although this is just my view, as the whole thing is clearly up for debate)."

It's either peg free or not and that means losing routes in Trearddur Bay and possibly the Bells etc which I think would be a real shame.

It would also mean the Big Overhang will never go free although I don't know whether that was ever more than a notional idea or not anyway. 

So someone has drilled the rock and then glued in a chunk of metal to provide fixed gear.

And yet you claim that because this piece of metal was a "peg", and not a " bolt" that makes a difference.

Despite the fact that they are more or less identical all key aspects.

I thought from reading a previous thread on here, that there are bolts at Gogarth already for belays, and that you can use them if you are in with the cool kids and have been told where to find them?

I did wonder in the original report why Calum didn't say who has been drilling out the old pegs and gluing in the new ones. Has this work been done secretly? Or is the person doing it perfectly happy to explain why they felt this was the right thing to do?

Our dogs don't need to fight thankfully

I guess my thoughts were that if adequate protection has been found or invented in the intervening years then there would be no need for them to be replaced, as they would be largely unnecessary.

That said, I do appreciate the simplicity of the 'do it or don't' approach, as there are a whole lot of grey areas within this topic that are hard to ratify.

As someone who clipped those pes last wednesday, I’d say that it depends on the route. Can’t do blanket statement. On Fifteen men it felt unecessary as there’s adecuate gear just below and you have to committ before clipping the peg, hence it seemed not necessary. Barbarossa, well depends. If we are to consider it a soft E6 as it is now, the peg makes total sense and it doesn’t detract from the experience as there’s plenty of hard climbing above all on gear. If we want it to be a necky E7 then not. Which opens the question, do we want these routes accesible? Because it was certainly nice to see that the have been climbed, had traffic and were cleared of lichen, which wasn’t the case 3 years ago. From my experience there’s so much unsightly tat and decaying abseils everywhere which are a real eyesore, also many other cases of actual bolts (Castle Helen, Rhoscolyn...) so I can’t say  I was shocked at seeing these pegs, if anything I gladly clipped them. But more judgement is needed in what routes this is the right approach 

 > That said, I do appreciate the simplicity of the 'do it or don't' approach, as there are a whole lot of grey areas within this topic that are hard to ratify.

It's not because it's simple but because if you have an ethic it's got to be ethical. You can't just say "I don't want pegs replacing with these ones because its unethical, except where I fancy having them".

I'd say 316 is fine judging from the corrosion thread the other day?

Thank you, but I cannot see where the article says someone has drilled the rock as in drilling a hole for a bolt - what the article says is, quote, "The old peg placements and rotting stumps have been hacked or drilled out and new stainless steel 'pegs' have replaced them with resin to secure the placements." Which I take to mean someone removed the old pegs from the existing crack or hole - I do not see that as 'more or less identical all key aspects' to placing a bolt, which needs a NEW hole in existing blank rock. Thanks for listening

I guess my hope was that we could achieve a more nuanced approach, based on consensus, so that it isn't just what one person thinks - it's what many people agree on.

Whether or not these people agree with me is another matter altogether

Sadly I get a 404 error. SO these are permalinks-pegs going in where pegs weren't before? This is far from desirable IMO. In contrast, replacement of old rubbish with something with greater longevity is.

Drilling out old broken pegs =/= drilling bolt holes in blank rock

I’m glad that the article has generated positive discussion about this issue. I’ve been speaking to a wide variety of local climbers about this issue to canvass opinion but think, with the importance of Gogarth to UK climbing, it should be an ‘open-shop’ discussion. My aim is that fixed gear replacement on trad routes is discussed prior to action, as dogmatic actions lead to dogmatic responses. I also think it’s unfair and elitist to say that we’re ok with, to all intents and purposes, bolts replacing peg stumps on E5’s and E6’s, when we’d be upset with bolts replacing the old peg stumps on easier classics like The Strand or Cenotaph Corner. Climbing standards and equipment (sticky rubber boots, cams…) have come a huge distance from the 50’s and even the 80’s – the period in which many of these routes were first climbed, some of which, like Citadel, were aid routes originally. The routes I described in the article, predominantly haven’t had pegs for fifteen years or more, just rotten stumps, but fortunately they all have good protection within one metre of those old peg stumps. Replacing these pegs has made the routes easier to climb (i.e. clip and go), but not necessarily any safer. Barbarossa is an interesting case as the original peg was drilled in place, so poor ethics even at the time, although still an admirable achievement by Jim Moran. All these routes have been on-sighted on numerous occasions without the pegs.

My personal opinion is that when routes get on-sighted without pegs, then that should be considered the new normal for that route. If that puts the route out of touch for some on lead, then you can still enjoy them on a top rope, without impacting the experience of other climbers. I think it’s unfair (sorry Rob!) to say that we should replace the peg on Barbarossa so that an E6 climber can enjoy it, but not the pegs on The Strand so that an E1 climber can enjoy it. Climbing in Wales (and the rest of the UK) is a smorgasbord of styles and ethics that have happily co-existed and I think discussion is key to continuing to safeguard the adventurous spirit of climbing for future generations, who will no doubt be better than ourselves and also so that we can leave challenges for them.

I’d be interested to hear what others think of what I’ve said. It’s certainly been well received amongst the people I’ve spoken to so far but perhaps that’s because I’ve not spoken to a wide enough array of folks! I’d like to work on a loose statement, along with Tim Jepson, to take to the next BMC local area meeting that reflects some form of consensus on the matter to help guide climbers in future.

This ethics, there's no way you'll get a unanimous consensus but as these pegs have been in a while and none of the many regular Gogarth climbers have really kicked off there does seem to be acceptance or is there much behind the scenes mutiny? 

Are they actually stainless steel or something else?

Consensus doesn't have to be unanimous. I'd say there's been a lot of discussion about this but stainless steel pegs glued in place require an angle grinder rather than a nut key to remove!

I can only go on what the UKC article said which was that some pegs had been replaced by glued in pegs so I presume that only existing placements have been renewed.

My concern was that, according to the article, all the affected routes had previously been led, on sight and without the pegs.

I may have unwittingly provided a good/bad example, because (confessional) I've not actually done it. As such, take that particualrly case with a pinch of salt!

Interestingly though this does, as you allude to, have an influence on our feelings, because the fact I've never done it - and the fact I could now consider doing so - are something that is likely to sway my opinion. I'd have never got on it as a bold E7, but I would as a safe(ish) E6. Clearly I want to try and separate my viewpoint from this, not least because I'd love to think of myself as a little more objective than that, but it is a point worth making - why do we want the pegs replacing?

I'm not sure what the answer is, but thus far I've appreciated the debate, irrespective of the outcome. Hopefully it'll act as useful feedback for the next area meeting, as I know I've benefitted from conversations such as this during my time as Peak Area Chair. 

Agreed, it is indeed slightly different.  Not identical as I have said.

However, IMHO the use of a drill in both scenarios remains crucial.

What’s wrong with more people climbing and enjoying these routes, and them being in a clean and climbable state?

P.s: Looking forward to the peg on Cenotaph Corner being replaced. 

I was honestly really shocked to hear that new pegs have been placed on Gogarth.

I think it is a huge step backwards to be replacing/placing fixed gear on cliffs close to a salt water environment. 

Don't take it for granted having easily accessible world class trad climbing. 

Sure thing. Roughly approximates my thoughts too. 

I don't entirely buy the point re elitism though. When considering FFA and repeats there is definitely a heavier reliance upon pegs in the upper E grades. On peg reliant routes - which certainly exist - I dont think its as straightforward as suggesting that supporting peg maintainance is elitist. 

"My personal opinion is that when routes get on-sighted without pegs, then that should be considered the new normal for that route."

I see the logic there but I can see issues too. Im sure you would be happy to climb Naked Ape without the pegs but I'm not sure that many of the prior ascentionists would. Surely theres got to be flexible solution there beyond the best climber makes the rules?

I havent climbed it but out of interest - was Barbarossa onsighted 'sans fer' because it was rotten or was it intentionally removed to clean it up?

Having thought about this, after having had my above statement challenged, here are my thoughts:

Pegs held in by resin are a good solution to the fixed gear problem, after all no one wants to break their legs when a bit of rust snaps. Rusty time bombs that may, or may not, hold a fall are the worst of both worlds. 

However they shouldn't be placed willy nilly. Below is my flow chart for placing a peg.

They should only go in the exact place that the original peg went. They should only be placed where their absence changes the adjective grade of the route by two grades. Ie if there is a cam/wire close to the peg then it should not be replaced. 

In my view the following routes are appropriate candidates for fixed gear:

Totalitarian (E1 5c) E1 with, E3 without.

Chwys (E2 5b) HVS with E2 without.

I'll try and think of some more. 

Tom

I completely agree with your fundamental point about elitism, but I don't think your comparison of the 2 routes is valid. Adding a single peg to the Strand would make little difference to the overall difficulty of the climb, and none at all to its boldness. I've not done Barbarossa (too hard!), but it seems that the addition of a single peg makes a massive difference. Maybe if there were an E2 with one critical peg placement, the analogy would work better. 

Glad to see that people are starting to realise that bolted rappel anchors are a better long-term solution than pegs, and no threat at all to an established trad ethic.

My turn to apologise to Calum now, as I'm not sure I completely agree with that statement either; however, this does go to show how subjective the word 'necessary' is when replacing a peg.

Thanks for your thoughts. My comment re elitism is about double standards with it being ok to replace pegs with these new peg-bolts on E5's but not on HVS's and E1's. Many of the easier routes were peg reliant originally, largely because there was less natural gear available in the 50's and 60's and they were still at the cutting edge for the era they were climbed. In the instance of the routes that I mentioned the grades haven't changed with the exception of Barbarossa going from soft touch E6 to top of the grade. Therefore, are the pegs really necessary other than to pacify our ego's? I'd love a peg-bolt in The Bells The Bells but I'd feel like that was unfair on previous ascentionists and a step back in standards - especially because the initial peg was likely pretty awful anyway!

The first time I climbed Barbarossa there was just and un-clippable stump in place and I know a few other climbers who on-sighted it in this style.

I can understand your thoughts re my comment about on-sighted routes changing the ethics. I'd say this has already been a natural progression at Gogarth for many years as the old pegs have fallen out or been ripped out by falling climbers and subsequent climbers have done without them. To me, this makes sense. There aren't many routes that would actually see a change in grade without pegs anyway (or indeed that many left at Gogarth that are still have pegs in them). I also don't think pegs in sea cliffs are sustainable due to corrosion and the replacements, whilst an admirable attempt at a solution, are actually bolts in a peg shape which aren't currently accepted at Gogarth. I guess my caveat would be that this is a general rule and if there is a strong enough consensus to replace a peg here or there then perhaps that should be allowed - but only after prior discussion. It's not like we're running out of routes to climb either in Wales - if one or two become too hard for us to lead then I've got plenty of other to try, or could just tope rope.

I feel that we shouldn't be bashing, glueing, drilling in anymore pegs, especially at gogarth. It shouldn't be a place where we bring the rock down to our level. If you can't do it without the pegs... find something else to do, or get better

What's your view on belay pegs for the routes on Red Walls?

There is opinion and there is action. 

There is always going to be vociferous anti fixed gear opinion. The actions of the climbing community betray a different attitude. These routes are being climbed and kept clean(er) for future ascents. 

I was in N Wales in May 2019,shortly after the citadel peg had been replaced. A large, strong team had travelled over, specifically to climb the route in its new state. 

The traffic is a better testament to the desires of the community, than the ranting. 

And if someone could make positron a 6c+, I would buy them a pint and join the queue 🤣

Well, I've used the top belay of red wall on the first time I did it. I think I equalised a number of rusty stubs combined with a spike and a braced position. Next time I just wuested to the top. Can't remember what the belays on wendigo were like now.

Only done left hand left wall on the eponymous crag. Again, I can't recall the belay.

R 

I'm open to the idea that pegs sometimes turn something into a more reasonable onsight proposition. Necky E7 that doesn't get many ascents, or an E6 that might get quite a few? If a single peg makes the difference that can look like a positive move.

My problem is that even if they're stainless steel, unless I know they were placed a few weeks ago I'm still going to view them as suspicious, and if they're the only thing between me and a necky E7 it's not very reassuring. In fact, I'd go so far as to say for me I'd rather know where I stand - and that's where pegs muddy the waters. It's not always clear how crucial they are and I've snapped enough to not want to trust them, particularly on a sea cliff.

I guess what I'm getting at is the "turns it into a reasonable E6 onsight" argument is often only valid for quite a short time. After that the pegs actually become a hindrance to onsight ascents, because you're heading up there not sure of what you'll find and whether the grade is reliant on them being good.

That’s certainly an inspiring round up, Callum.  Bit of a shame that so many inspiring new routes could now be lost in a debate about bolts at Gogarth, which seems to me to be a total misnomer.

You list 5 routes as examples and whilst I’ve not done Cruise or Horrorshow, I have done the other 3 – Fifteen Men, Barbarossa and Citadel.  I also did them at various stages in the life of their fixed protection, so I’ve got a reasonable idea of what has occurred with those routes.

You state that all 5 had been climbed on sight without any pegs, and you may well be right, but they would have been very different propositions and I don’t think it is right that they had become ‘established’ in their peg free state.

The most extreme example would be Barbarossa.  On this the old peg, which stuck out a long way, was absolutely critical to protect the crux sequence.  I didn’t test the peg, but was very glad it was there for my ground up ascent of what I thought was a brilliant pitch.  Without the peg, you’d be looking at soloing c. F7b climbing a very significant distance off the deck.  Barbarossa as a classic Gogarth E6 would be lost, except perhaps to folk willing to first work the route on a top rope, which is hardly what Gogarth climbing is all about.

So whilst I did Barbarossa in it’s ‘old’ state, Citadel I’ve actually done twice – once several years ago when the original peg was in place, and again last year, when the replacement peg was in place.  For me, the experience was absolutely no different – the peg is in exactly the same place it always was; it looks little different, but as I understand it, the replacement is now fully reliable.  Citadel is of course a Main Cliff classic, which would feel a very different proposition on that crux wall without a peg.  I don’t know how many ascents it had during the period when the peg was missing, but I doubt it was thought of as an improvement.

Finally, 15 Men…  This one I led for the first time this summer, clipping the replacement peg en route.  Apart from the fact that crux wall is never 6a(!), I thought the new peg was really quite awkward to clip, as it sits at a slightly unhelpful angle in an obvious natural placement.  It would be a very different proposition without the peg, and whilst you would be unlikely to hit the deck, you could taken an absolute monster off some pretty hard, fingery moves – a bit like ‘designer danger’ if you ask me.  I felt I deserved my (very rare nowadays) E5 tick, but I certainly wouldn’t have done it without the peg.

These were my experiences of the 3 routes mentioned that I’ve done, but what about the broader issue Callum has raised?

To be honest, I don’t think people really need to worry.  If this very selective replacement of a small number of important pegs on routes which might otherwise be lost to the creeping sea grass, was being undertaken by someone with little appreciation of the real Gogarth experience, then I might share those fears.  But as I understand it, this is someone with huge experience of trad climbing at Gogarth, who is prepared to put a lot of time, trouble and effort in to prevent a few key routes falling into complete disuse.

The examples I have seen, as described above, have been meticulously placed exactly where the original pegs were and they certainly don’t look at all incongruous compared to any of the other plethora of ironmongery which abounds these cliffs.  And to my mind, if this solution has real longevity, then it really is a welcome compromise.

My fear is that debates like this, should they descend to the histrionic (see the thread title), will only serve to dissuade those prepared to do this work from bothering, and then the routes could well be lost forever.

I'm not sure I agree with you there. Citadel has always been a popular route with original peg, post peg and with peg again - it seems no more popular now than it was then unless you can provide evidence to the contrary.

The other routes on the Upper Tier are popular (i.e. they've had more than three ascents!) because they're clean again, but they were also popular around ten years ago when they were last given a scrubbing, seeing a flurry of attention before winter came and the lichen grew back. I don't think the pegs will make much difference to the level of traffic they receive.

I have climbed a few of these routes in the last year or so for the first time and I happily clipped the pegs. I had actually been psyching myself up to lead Barbarossa before the peg was replaced and admit I had a sigh of relief when I heard it had been replaced. It certainly changed my experience on the route though. However I have mixed thoughts about their general placement as I don't believe the blanket replacement of fixed gear is the way to go. Undoutedly these routes have become repopularised of late, though that's perhaps also due to them being unearthed from the mariners lichen! I think the last time they had a flurry of ascents was maybe 10 years ago when Rob Greenwood cleaned them. We shouldn't forget that others have invested time in the peg replacement and cleaning from which a number of us have benefited! Regardless of what I think about it, I believe it has all been done with the best intentions and for the benefit of the majority. 

Climbing has progressed so much over the last few decades since these routes were first climbed and I think how they are approached now has to be considered in a progressive light and a reflection of the change in standards, abilities and equipment. 

My thinking is that if routes are regularly onsighted without the pegs then that should be the accepted normal and regraded if necessary (as a few of the mentioned routes have). I think the majority of routes would fall into this bracket. Where the ambiguity lies, for me, is with routes that rely on pegs for critical safety, i.e. they'd be chop routes otherwise and not even modern gear can make them acceptably safe (though this is subjective!). Either there's a consensus that they get replaced or they are just left for posterity and for the bold and brave (or headpointers). I also just accept that I'm not bold, brave or good enough to climb them! After all, not all routes can be climbed by everyone! 

As my name has been used twice in this thread, I feel I need to explain my position.
As Chair of BMC Cymru (North), it is my job to represent the concerns of members on all issues which affect climbing and walking in North Wales.  NB.  That is members local to N Wales, and members resident elsewhere.
Inevitably the issue of 'fixed gear' (of all types) comes up regularly and I have put in a fair amount of volunteered time and effort to try to set up a forum/meeting where the issues can be discussed and a consensus achieved.  But as this thread demonstrates, the arguments are very complex and nuanced and I have so far failed to get the key protagonists together.
However, I won't give up, and Calum has asked me to put 'fixed gear' on the agenda for our next meeting which I am happy to do.  But it would be naive to believe that as a small part of a busy we could arrive at any more than an agreement on how to move forward with the discussion process..

To facilitate that process, I recently wrote the following, which I stand by as a starting point:

"It is a statement of fact that in North Wales there exist not only adventure crags and sport crags, but also crags where trad.-protected and bolt-protected routes co-exist side by side. Crags can't therefore be classified as trad. or sport based simply on rock type, or altitude, or the degree to which they can be described as natural or man-made environments. As many have argued, it requires a grown-up, nuanced discussion involving notions of history, ethics, safety, ecology and access to understand how consensus and compromise have resulted in the amazing variety of climbing opportunities we have in North Wales. Furthermore, if that variety is to be preserved and appreciated by newcomers to climbing, then those of us who care (the majority, I'd like to believe) need to take responsibility for enthusiastically articulating the issues in a persuasive, rather than dogmatic, manner. Only that way can North Wales expect to retain, and further develop, its reputation for offering 'best practice' across the whole range of climbing types/experiences, and expect all climbers, whether local or visiting, to buy-in to the concept."

I'm not against new replacement pegs, but gluing them in with resin seems a bit too much like bolts for my liking.

Interesting to hear your thoughts Neil and thanks for sharing. I find it interesting the different experiences we both had on these three routes - you climbing these routes with the original pegs the first time you climbed them and me climbing them with no peg left in place to clip. For me they were hugely fun experiences first time round enhanced by not having any fixed gear. I've also climbed them all again this year with the new pegs.

On Citadel I find very little difference as there's a grey camalot about 10 inches from the peg - you may not have noticed this with the peg in place. The second pitch of Citadel had about four pegs in it, is still desperate, and none of these have been replaced. On Fifteen Men you either had to commit to a runout above good gear or wriggle in a good runner, this does make it a little harder than its current state. When I climbed Barbarossa the first time it was spicy at the end of the runout without the peg. I climbed it again as a warm up last week (terrible idea as I got really pumped) and it was certainly less serious and I admit this route would see much less attention without the peg.

I find it really interesting that those defending the replacements of the pegs most vigorously are the people where the pegs replacements would have the most significant impact on them climbing the routes. I guess this is logical, but it is also a selfish argument if it's not also applied across the grade range. I would also agree with Wil Treasure's comment above, that whilst these new peg-bolts are a longer term solution, they will also degrade over time and will be a lot harder to replace. Is it so much for us to accept that we might lose access to the odd route if fixed gear isn't replaced?

I do agree with you that the new pegs have gone in by somebody who loves climbing at Gogarth, has a reasoned argument and has good intentions. I just fear that what was the odd replacement peg a few years ago, is now gathering pace without any discussion or consideration left to those challenging his views.

What Callum said fits my view perfectly.  I'll admit to never having climbed at Gogarth, but hope to one day.  If a route ends up bumping up a grade or two and ends up being beyond me that's fine.  If it's basically got a bolt in it (sorry, peg in a drilled hole with resin) then I'd rather not do it, especially if there is genuinely protection with in a meter. 

This is a pants thread same old stuff.  You dont have to clip the pegs if you dont want to.

Just make sure you tell everyone down the pub you did the route in the hard mans peg free ascent 

Have you got much experience of removing corroded pegs/the remnants of them and putting new ones in? Especially in a sea cliff environment, where the sea air rots normal pegs, fast.

Tom

P.s: I don’t either but I know a man who does, and has put a lot of time, effort, energy, and his own money into doing so. 

I see you are 22 and just getting into trad climbing. Also that you prefer partying to studying. Are you pissed already?

No I don't. But pegs which have been glued in will be much harder to remove when they do corrode. It also takes away the possibility of them being removed in future should consensus dictate it, something I can't support.

No peg replacement.

or

Set up a local expert team to assess peg replacement on a route by route basis, where the criteria is whether the route is significantly reliant on a peg and whether the route is changed without the peg or pegs. I believe this approach has worked in Avon Gorge.

Obviously any approach taken on Upper Tier will creep onto Main Cliff, Red Walls, Rhoscolyn, Yellow Walls...

I broke the original peg on Citadel in July 2012. Since then and the time it was replaced (May 2019 as far as I can gather from this thread) it's been ticked 34 times on the UKC logbook. I expect the actual number of ascents is a lot higher than this as not everyone has a UKC logbook. Personally I don't think citadel was a different proposition without the peg. As I recall there is excellent gear a foot or two below the peg which I tested after the peg broke . I haven't done any of the other routes affected so can't comment on those.

This may be a case of pointing out the 'bleeding obvious' - but it's perhaps worth mentioning that the 34 logbook entries don't actually indicate 34 separate ascents; they include occasions when both members of a team have made entries - ie only one of them would have led it, which is the critical bit of data here - plus various 'dnf's which, on closer inspection, often appear to have bailed pre-crux, and at least one duplicate entry. My tally was, I think, 21.

As you rightly point out, though, there's a whole world out there who don't use the logbooks!

Agreed. I wasn't being particularly careful when counting the ticks. So at least 21 UKC accents sans peg over 7 years which, although not right wall or get some in popularity, probably still made it one of the most popular E5s in the UK over that period.

This debate is an interesting one, I have skin in the game in that I have done none of the routes that have had the pegs replaced on, but want to do all of them (Fifteen men being the lowest on my list).

Its tricky, whilst I do see Calum’s point, and I do agree. I am not opposed to the peg on Barbarossa. Sounds like although some have done it without it barely got done, the fa had one and it is actually crucial. 

The other pegs sound sound a little unnecessary, the citadel and cruise ones certainly. 

I guess the argument about replacing strand pegs for an e1 climber being that the strand is perfectly well protected without. Which is what I’d argue about the cruise and citadel (not sure about 15 men).

Further to this, I think Huntsman’s leap would be a good candidate for some of this treatment. A lot of the harder routes there are now a right nightmare of rusting crucial gear. In fact I have heard a horror story of Calum on souls so maybe cal would be up for some shiny fixed kit on that  

obviously with all this the replacements go where the old ones went. No new ones are added. If they are in hard to clip places then tough titties. It’s shit the first ascentionists had nice known quantity pegs to clip and we don’t.

id argue the same for any low grade route with a crucial peg (can’t think of any off the top of my head) and also be against replacing any bit of fixed kit that wasn’t crucial on any hard route. 

I think with a bit of common sense it’s not a difficult thing to judge.

also if a route gets done loads without crucial peg then maybe that voids the case for a replacement. How you define loads I don’t know.

I guess Calum’s point about being able to toprope the routes without crucial pegs is an important one. Do we value clean ascents where the rock is unharmed but we bring the route down to a lower level by pre-practice or do we value clean ascents where there is still a lot of uncertainty as the climbing happens from the ground up but the route has been bought down to a lower level by peg replacement. 

Space race at Forwyn originally had a bolt in it, then someone removed it and headpointed it. It stayed like that for ages But with the odd person headpointing it with a replacement bolt that you could screw back into the sleeve. Then I think this year the bolt got properly replaced. For me that is the obvious thing to have happened as no one was doing it without bolt. I’d be interested to know how many people did Barbarossa without the peg. Cal, Caff, twid? Probs a fair few tbh. 

for me it is most logical to start from the ground. Yes someone has to abseil in to sort this peg out but most hard new routes have attention on abseil. Repeat ascensionists then usually aim to start from the ground. As long as we aren’t banging extra pegs in or replacing non-crucial ones then it’s all good in my book. As I think this means only a few pegs would be replaced. 

Anyway, just my 2p

Dunc

This is in response to many comments here not just the OP.

we have a great tradition of adventurous climbing in the U.K. using gear placed on lead.

Too often I hear the calls for the ‘sport’ of climbIng to be made safer.

We are seeing the ethics of climbing walls being brought outdoors (top roping, bottom roping repeated working, blocking of routes) even on low grade routes.

There is pressure from ‘professionals’ in the outdoors to make climbing ‘safer and more accessible, often so instructors can get inexperienced people up and down classic routes more quickly and easily.

Bolted and sport climbing practices are greedy of finite rock resource leading to accelerated wear/polishing.

And finally, you may have seen me comment before, climbing isn’t a sport and shouldn’t be feminised by trying to make it safe. In essence it is at its best when it is a pointless and dangerous pastime.

Bolts (or glued pegs) on E6s today, E1s next month and on Flying Buttress next year. 
 

Please Gogarth is at its best as an intimidating scary experience enjoyed after gaining the experience and grit to make it fun.

What the hell does feminised mean? 

And its probably worth pointing out all the original pegs were placed by the FA not clueless indoor climbers, I'm also not sure any if these routes often have beginners guided up them or in any danger of being polished!

Allthough some of these arguments my have relevance to certain crags and situations this is a pretty specific situation and general anti bolting rants don't really help.

I can think of a fair few VS routes in the wye and Avon with crucial pegs that if they were gone would be a far bolder affair.

General reply:

My views may not hold up much weight compared to the powerhouses that have already commented on this thread but here's two cents from an average climber and I think my thoughts echo a lot of my peers. 

With regards to re equipping routes I think, as many have said before, where the demise of fixed gear changes the grade significantly from being a safe route to a chop route it could be replaced. This would obviously have to be a consensus and not a one man pegging mission (things like route popularity and other factors should be considered here too). As well as this I feel replacement of fixed gear should to be an all or nothing affair, do it properly and so it will last or just don't bother with it at all (seems to be what has been done at Gogarth). This will future proof the route and prevent the discussion coming up again in the future.

The thing is with easier routes (and a lot of hard ones too) is they generally only had pegs where the first ascensionist couldn't get gear in which our modern gear has now superceded (small wires, brass, halfnuts, microcams, large offwith size cams) thus negating the need for pegs on these routes now. For example the Cenotaph corner peg doesn't need replacing as there is bomber gear that negates the use of the peg is easily placed and retains the grade... One place this isn't true is Wintours Leap.  

IMHO the Castell Helen ab does not need bolts as there is ample natural gear for an anchor, anyone who abs off the pegs alone should probably be shortlisted for a Darwin award anyway. But had the pegs been the "only" way down I can see the argument for putting in a bolted ab to preserve status quo of the ab point. 

I don't understand how there's an argument for adding anything to Castell Helen. There's at least one utterly bombproof nut placement at that abseil. By all means tidy up any tat but I can't see why anything needs adding.

Can we have the name of the climber who did this please?

That does not sit with the reality of multiple team of VS climbers rigging their ab ropes to limited natural anchors.  A bolted ab point would do nothing to detract from the trad ethic of the climbing.

Please can you be clear, are you advocating chopping the pegs on the CH ab so people have to just use the nut placements? Or are you saying that pegs of uncertain reliability (at least one has failed this year) are OK on ab points used by hundreds of VS climbers each year but not on E6 climbs?

FWIW my personal view is that Gogarth would be better without peg runners, even if it means some formerly classic routes returning to obscurity. but I'm happy to listen to and understand the other side of the argument.  

A bolted ab point on top of CH is not on the climbs but next to tourist path  so would be acceptable and sensible.

I would be more in favour of losing the ab point at the top of the Strand which is only there to avoid the walk round from the top, and is actually on the climb

This is so frustrating. Who are these people who take a toolkit and leave their rubbish on these amazing crags?

Hand place a peg on lead? Sure, as long as the second removes it. The route is too hard without in-situ gear. Tough, climb something else. It turns to lichen? Likewise, like all the other bits of rock that are too hard. Rob, you presume that no-one objects to the pegs/ab on the Strand. I do. It turns what should be one of the classic HVS's with an easy second pitch and walk off, into a race up and down Macdonald's fest. There's plenty of sullied crags if that's what you're psyched for, but why at Gogarth? It makes no sense to me.

Thank you for your reply. I really see what you mean about the use of a drill, and about that being crucial. Good point

I haven’t done it recently and don’t recall the details of the natural gear available on the stance, but I’m pretty sure the first pitch wasn’t HVS, whether or not you finished at the top.

Me neither, there's an in-situ ab so there's no reason to look. Shame really but given it's a crack and the abundance of gear, am pretty sure there's a solid belay, but that's beside the point.

It'd be HVS in the lakes or on peak grit. Not sure where you could actually fall off it

Stainless pegs are sensible and a like for like replacement is ok. However glue in pegs are a bit too close to bolts for my liking. Fine at mixed / confused ethics crags like Avon and Wintours, not acceptable at Gogarth.

The peg on Citadel is unnecessary. Haven't done the other routes yet.

Barbarossa is an interesting one. Replacing the peg may be going back to what it was like for the FA but it's still a reasonable proposition at E7 from what I gather and was still getting attention from people at that grade. It may get more attention now and perhaps more onsight / ground up attempts. At bold E7 it would have been head pointed by most people. Is it worth compromising ethics for the sake of enabling more ascents in a better style, or just more ascents? Tricky one.

I do think the Castell Helen ab point should be bolted though, before a sea cliff beginner kills themselves there.  

Hi Misha, thanks a lot for your comments. However I'm a bit uneasy / unsure about your 2 comments about Avon (I was a total regular and resident there for years, and have climbed there for decades) - [1] that glue in pegs are "Fine" at Avon. I disagree. I would say that ordinary pegs are crucial on some Avon climbs to avoid certain death, but that glue in (or drilling to replace pegs, which you didn't mention) to replace pegs is not OK. IMO placing ordinary pegs at Avon isn't hard. [2] That Avon is a "mixed / confused ethics crag", not sure what you mean there but I disagree

Thanks for listening, Misha! Happy climbing and travelling!

Hi Dave. Wow - that's a bit of a comedown; Drummond 6b = HVS! Admittedly, in 1967, his technical grading system didn't appear to include 5c - so his 6b would [presumably] automatically translate to our 6a - but nonetheless that seems a bit of a stretch. I think I share your doubt.

Do you recall, from your uni days, a certain JF; graduated in about 1977 to pursue a career in dental care? It may have been before your time [God - I'm so old!]. My first encounter with The Strand was with him; this was probably about 1974/5 when he'd already worked his way through most of the standard Extremes in North Wales. He led the first pitch - the main one - and at some point took to the air; loose rock, I think. It looked like a monster - 40 or 50 feet, perhaps - held on a pre-Sticht waist belay [Sticht plates were commercially available in the UK by then - they just hadn't been universally adopted!] I guess that the length of fall was in some way due to his crap rack - which sort of complimented the home-made chest harness. But he was hardcore, to the core - and probably still is! I've almost lost my thread here - but I think my point is that it is actually possible to fall off The Strand.

Anyone who can't build a secure abseil there is also going to find themselves having awful trouble building a safe belay on the half-height ledge. Should we stick some bolts on that as well?

If the dodgy pegs were the only abseil option then I would understand and support the argument for bolts. But I've never fully trusted the pegs and never had trouble backing them up very securely.

If it weren't for your inexcusably offensive (deliberately provocative?) use of the word "feminised" I would have given you a like - I think you are spot on otherwise.

I agree to a point but I'm not sure how I feel about not replacing pegs if the route has been onsighted without them.

As mid grade climber I'd feel a little put down if a pegged uber classic went from E2 5c to E4 5c, just because someone better than me had climbed it and decided the pegs weren't necessary. In addition I've been on plenty of peg dependant routes that may become neglected if this approach was taken.

I suppose what I mean is that if a pegged route is accsessible to 80% of climbers with its pegs, but only 10% without what's the benefit. Yes you could say "well the can still top rope it" but that's not exactly the point of climbing for most folk.

Cheers

Michael

Removing all pegs on the Castell Helen ab. No bolts, no pegs, just natural gear, it does not need anything. The same way if a route does not need a peg replacing due to natural gear being available it should not be replaced. But in the same way as many routes, the pegs are still there (barely) and I'm not going to go on a renegade chopping mission. 

You also make an assumption that because someone only climbs up to VS they can't rig a safe ab point. This is not the case and actually in reality I've only seen a team going down to do North West passage that have rigged the abseil on pegs only.

I agree with Luke90 if they can't set up a safe abseil then they'll be having trouble making a belay on the halfway ledge too. This would be bolting for convenience and should be avoided. Yes I've used the ab on the strand but I'm agreed that it probably isn't necessary (although I can't remember what gear there actually is once you've turned the slab onto the stance).

Edit: I don't want anyone to kill themselves abseiling at Castell Helen but unfortunately there are people who implicitly trust rusting blobs, and those people are going to wind up hurting themselves one day on a route somewhere unless they learn. So maybe education is the key not convenience bolting 

I always thought the problem with that ab is not that there isn't decent backup gear - there obviously is - but there's not necessarily that much of it in the context of it being a busy crag where a fair few people may want their own rope in situ because they're doing routes that are effectively the easiest way out. A stake, or an equalised tat anchor, or something can be shared by many parties - a nut placement is effectively taken by the person who gets there first (whilst multiple people can clip it, its owner will want to remove it from everyone's anchor when they leave so noone can guarantee it being still part of their safety net).

Admittedly it's been a long time since I was there, so there may in reality be more natural placements than my memory suggests is the case.

As an aside, it is interesting that far from bolts at CH being the thin end of a wedge we seem instead to have retained the rusted mess there and jumped straight to resined pegs on the hard routes. 

This is the point

Let’s leave Huntsmans as far away as possible from this debate.... I never comment on these threads but here is my 2 penneth

Fixed gear is a blight on our sea cliffs,it comes from a different time with very different gear, we should be moving forward (is it still ok to be smashing pegs into first ascents on sea cliffs?).

Im not for the removal of fixed pegs but I am against the replacement. We should either be prepared to step up to the true challenge or be happy to walk away. We should be preserving a finite resource that is very much a part of UK climbing not preserving some arbitrary line fixed at the time of the first ascent.

Fixed threads are a whole other much more nuanced debate, for me this one is pretty simple and mostly ego driven. Surely it’s time to stop looking back and move forward.

I'm glad you're involved; good sense should prevail! However I'm also interested in the current opinion for replacing old peg belays with bolts (as even bolts don't last forever and eventually need replacing). Wouldn't decent stakes a la Pembroke be a better solution?

Hurray, sense at last. Put this guy in charge!

I agree with your first sentence. The second is more complicated. If the peg is placed in a crack and is mechanically sound - and then the resin is added to seal and protect it, I don’t see the problem. However if it’s pushed into some sloppy pocket where only the addition of resin will form a good placement (or of course a drilled hole...) then that’s clearly a different thing altogether.

Absolutely this.

If you want sanitised sea cliff climbing go to LPT or Portland.  Gogarth is the definitive adventure climbing venue, if you don't want that.....don't go.

The ethic should be very clear. No new or replacement fixed gear.  When the old stuff decays, climb it without or go elsewhere. 

Bolts for the descent to CH would be grossly misleading  - if you need those, you shouldn't be climbing there!

Same argument can be applied to all pegs....when the peg at the top of Cenotaoh Corner finally comes out should it be replaced? The ring peg on Vector? Of course not! They were placed in a bygone era when just about every aspect of climbing was different. If you claim they are a definitive feature of the route, ok, but leave your friends, nuts, light rope,  modern shoes etc at home and climb 1950s/60s style.

Yes, when I said it wasn't HVS of course I meant it would be VS on Hen Cloud.  I'm comfortable with it being softish E2 in Wales.  It's a long pitch and I remember the top part to the stance feeling increasingly urgent.  I could easily imagine pumping out faffing about with gear.

Yes, I remember Jim, he used to turn up for significant anniversary Stoats annual dinners but it's been a while... 

I agreed with pretty much everything you said, barring this bit.

The reason we should include Huntsmans within the debate is because the outcome of what happens at Gogarth will almost undoubtedly have a knock-on effect to other areas. Were these pegs to become accepted, what's to say that we won't see more spreading throughout other sea cliffs? 

For me that's the nub of it: if people are seemingly ok with these (which, by and large, I'm not) then it sets a precedent that will ultimately undermine our stance - and the point you're making - when the debate moves to other areas.

I’d disagree about leaving Huntsman’s out of this for the reason rob states, and to my mind Huntsman’s is THE prime candidate for this sort of treatment with their being a lot of 3 star routes that rarely if ever get done. If it is decided that we are ok with doing it. 

However, I do totally see your point about stepping up to the new challenge. I guess issue comes if those old pegs block placements that modern gear allow to be utilised. But maybe it’s the same deal. 

something I would add, if we are to leave them as they are then I do think they need regrading. You can’t have a crag littered with shitty old pegs rendering routes completely different propositions to the first ascent and yet also keep them at the grades they were given at the time they were first done. Not least because it’s shit looking at 3 star routes at a grade that is at your top limit, one part if your brain fantasising about doing them, the other knowing that those things are way above your limit now.

The finite amount of rock we have is a good point. But I guess in a way I could argue that with our finite amount of rock, having these brilliant looking routes (I hope we can agree on that at least) sit in relative obscurity, getting climbed very rarely, is a bit of a waste. 

For me, climbing is meant to be challenging, it is also meant to be fun. I don’t always manage it but my best days are when those two elements combine. I wonder if replacing these pegs opens that up. I do also agree that it is cool to have routes you’ll never do because you aren’t good enough or willing enough. Maybe that acceptance is something I/others need to learn. 

Interesting debate

I guess that is the key point, this sort of thing becomes an elitist issue because it’s rare that easier routes have crucial gear.

id be up for those Avon routes getting peg replacements. Climbing is great, but is it worth dying for? I’m not sure. It might well be.

re castell Helen, yes I know. I sort of think the pegs should be removed and have done with it, force people to build a belay. But if there are going to be pegs I do think they should be good ones.

maybe I’ve gone soft 

Yes, there is a popular misconception on UKC that by removing a peg it will reveal a perfect gear placement. Of course constant placing and removal of pegs often will... thinking of Millstone.

Yes you are absolutely right that’s exactly why I said that, it was more a reference to the issue being even more of a can of worms down there than it is  at Gogarth. I didn’t mean it in the sense that we shouldn’t look at the wider debate, which obviously we are, this is going to set a precedent which could have huge implications elsewhere. Which is why I’ve crawled out of my hole.

I dislike telling people how they should act and what they should do, and whilst I’m a long way from Ken Wilson I truly hope we make the right choices now! Not unlike brexit It could have a lasting impact. It needs to be clear and unambiguous as it could create grey areas! Whilst I completely understand the chop route argument, it makes much more sense to me to have a blanket ban (see climbing in lockdown threads for an example of what could happen if it’s not absolutely clear) on replacing fixed pegs.

For what it's worth, I'm glad you did.

Thanks for clarifying too - classic internet confusion, where two people are arguing the same point against each other (and in this case that was my fault - sorry!).

That is a fair point about the half way ledge. The issue though is people trust the pegs and don’t equalise them and/or don’t use all of them. There is only one secure nut placement to back up. 

Fair point re sealing. 

It was a general comment, clearly if there are good peg placements then there is no need to glue them in. Cemented pegs are more of a Wintour’s thing but I wonder if it will be needed at Avon as the old pegs deteriorate, if there is no secure ‘natural’ peg placement. That’s a separate debate though. It’s a mixed ethics crag though - some of the trad routes have bolts or indeed massive ironmongery on them! Think Pink and Yellow Edge have bolts just to make a couple of obvious examples. Other routes are full of decaying pegs, not all of them necessary these days. Some have bolted lower offs. Others are fully trad. It’s certainly not a pure trad crag. But we digress. 

Interesting debate.  One question I have is would Walk of Life ever have evolved if those pegs had been resined in ?

Personally I'd far rather either a cliff is agreed bolted (and the protagonists are happy with the rolling maintenance that implies) or they revert to as natural state as possible. One of my regrets was not doing Eroica when it was in my grade range but I'm happy for the peg mot to he there (it isn't there, is it ?).  As for the Strand being turned into a convenience single pitch gymnastic exercise - deeply disappointing.

This thread has now had over 4,000 views.  I would hazard a guess that more viewers may be concerned about having their access to Castell Helen restricted by the ethics police if an earlier party has already taken position of the only good nut slot on the ab point, than if an E6 with a peg should have the peg chopped making it E7 or glued to keep it as E6.

For clarity, this is the only fixed protection (if you can call an ab point that) that I am in favour of keeping.  I've been a Gogarth Punter for over 40 years, climbed over a hundred routes up to E4, and hoping to do many more yet

I’ll agree that we have brilliant routes, Pembroke is absolutely world class, and sea cliff climbing is something very special in all its forms from Doris to the Diamond.

Re regrading things I think that is already happening isn’t it? Their reputations certainly change as the become bolder/more challenging see Barbarossa .And whilst I’d agree that it’s shit looking up at 3 star routes your not up to doing that’s about ego, as you say climbing is fun because its challenging. Part of the fun is meeting the challenge, not bringing it down to your level. Also just because something isn’t getting climbed a lot now doesn’t mean it won’t in the future.

I’ve got an ego just as much, if not more than most but I think we all need to put them aside in this debate as they just cloud the issues, we need to forget about all the amazing 3 star routes we could do if they were restored to the state they were in for the first ascent. Aspiration is a huge part of the process, we should be aspiring to do these routes in better style not resorting to the tactics of the past.

I have placed at least two reliable independent nuts in that abseil point in the past.

If I got there and the ab point nuts were already taken and I wanted an abseil in place throughout my time there. Then I would just ab in on the rope already down there and I would also have a conversation with the teams if possible to organise it so that the last team planning to be down there will have the gear and rope in the ab. This would be no different if the pegs were gone.

Edited for grammar 

I apologise for not having much to add to the discussion, but has nobody really yet mentioned that starting to place a peg really is just the thin end of the wedge?

I totally agree with you. There is more than one nut placement, and I’ve always found a solution to abbing in even when I’m not first there. 

Anyone climbing at Gogarth, including Castell Helen needs to be prepared for trad sea-cliff climbing. Once you start sanitising it at one location it will creep to other locations. 

Ive always felt that setting up the ab into locations like Red Wall(the 80m ab) and Yellow Walls is part of the skill set and adventure.

I've seen common practice for climbers on Lighthouse arete doing a diagonal abseil to reach the belay, and often belaying on the ab rope.  The common Pembroke ethic of sharing ab ropes would often be impractical for Castell Helen

Well I understand your reasoning but I don’t agree Castell Helen needs a bolted abseil point. 

However, my money would be on someone putting some fixed gear there at some point soon, probably an outdoor instructor, and it will stick. That seems to be the direction of travel with these things.

Personally I think this is excellent news and a step in the right (forward thinking) direction. Well done to whoever has done this and I hope that some guardian of traditional vales doesn't come along and remove them.

Have the multitude of belay stakes at Pembroke sanitised the sea cliff climbing experience?

I agree with you on this, but the commitment to embark on climbs on  Red Wall or Yellow Wall (and other fantastic sea cliff experiences from Carn Gowla to the Hebrides and beyond) is a different game to Rap, Pel, or Lighthouse Arete

So what did you do in that situation? Abseil just off the pegs or sort out an arrangement that was safe for all parties? 

I've always set up an ab point linking the good nuts and pegs linked to a screw gate Krab which I and others can ab from.

Of course if somebody else gets there first and sets up an ab station that is less easy to share then I may not be able to do this.

With the pegs (or ideally a bolt or 2) is in place it naturally encourages people to set up a multi-point anchor which can usually be shared with other ropes

No shit.  Climbing has got immeasurably safer over the years.  That direction of travel isn't going to change.

So what?  As long as people are neither harming the environment, or affecting your enjoyment of it what does it matter if they top or bottom rope it?  

If pros are allowed to chuck a top rope down and work a hard route, I've no idea why beginners aren't allowed to?

At the end of the day climbing is a game with a whole bunch of contrived rules which are bundled up as "ethics".  Really, you're just insisting that people play the game by your rules.

The pegs at Wintours were cemented in to stop people stealing them.

In this case surely you mean 'the thin end of the bolt'!!!

Stakes in Pembroke are placed where there is no reliable anchor point that allows climbers to ab and leave their ropes in place. Sharing of ab ropes is common, but if it's important to make sure a rope will still be in place later to facilitate prusiking out then a team will leave their own rope in addition to any already there. The nature of stakes allows this.

The presence of reliable trad gear at the top of CH would suggest that a stake isn't necessary, but this ignores the problem of multiple use, given that no more than a couple or so of independent trad anchor setups are available. Parties arriving after these are already taken are then faced with a choice: either go somewhere else to climb or ab on an existing rope and accept that prusik retreat may not be possible. Indeed even using a rope already in place may not be possible if someone is hanging on the other end of it as part of their belay. Since there are a number of high quality routes at CH it seems a bit daft to limit access in this way. The Pembroke solution of a fixed stake or two would seem to be ideal for CH too, although the rocky ground may mean that that isn't an option.

A slightly alternative suggestion would be to drill downwards so as to facilitate the placing of a permanent abseil stake. Yes, it's still drilling but it doesn't come with the same sportclimbing associations as would a conventionally bolted belay and therefore would be very unlikely to be seen as an encroachment of sportclimbing norms in the trad environment.

I  will never climb any of these routes, so all I will say is that surely the question whether or not replacement pegs should be glued in can only be decided once the fundamental issues of whether or not to replace pegs, and whether drills can be used to remove the old ones, have been decided,

The Castell Helen ab point is an entirely separate argument.  The biggest problem is not that it is difficult to build an anchor there, but that it is often so heavily used, and parties are coming and going throughout the day.  On my visits there it has been chaotic, with departing parties removing their ropes at the same time as new arrivals try to set up their own.  This would all be much smoother and probably safer if there were a proper permanent anchor (as there was, briefly, before the bolts were chopped) and in my opinion that would have no bearing on the ethos of climbing on the crag below.

Why would it be less congested with a couple of bolts there ? The potential cluster f*ck just moves from the pegs and normal gear to the bolts.

Whats your view on the Strand belay, that has been dodgy for years.

LOL..I am only on 77 routes.

I take it that’s a joke?

Nut belay on to. Then scramble back to the good anchors, then walk round

No, thats fact!

Thanks for your reply, Misha. I take your point about the Avon trad routes e.g. Think Pink and Yellow Edge and other routes with bolts on them, and the mixed ethics

Rob, I agree with most of your point, but you are wrong about the Cruise. Two rusting but strong metal spike runners were removed, one from the crack entry and one near the top. The one near the entry was replaced with a peg. At the same time, 3 useless corroding jammed nuts without wires were removed from the crack, allowing it to be protected again on the lead with nuts. The route is now in a much cleaner state than it has ever been. The first peg is indeed right next to a good wire placement, however if you kick the wire out passing it you face a very serious fall, which is why a fixed item was replaced after some deliberation. The peg will last for many decades and offers a reliable failsafe for people who wish to start the pitch with a multi-directional runner. It can be clipped (or ignored) before even starting the crack. 

No. We are not comparing like for like. It would be good for people to know a bit more about these pegs, as assumptions are based on old, failed technology. They are custom-made with a single steel, and no sharp edges to propagate fractures. They are placed using a rubber mallets, to avoid setting up any chemical erosion points. Basically there is nothing in them to corrode or crack, so although you can never say never, these have removed all the known failure factors of previous so-called stainless pegs and bolts. They are not, however, available commercially. Nor, I hasten to add am I personally involved in their production or placement apart from expressing an opinion about routes that I don't think they would be appropriate for. 

Interesting how ‘diminished’ can be auto corrected ‘feminised’, my teachers always said I should read my homework before submitting

Lol, until autocorrect intervened it said diminished, I can’t edit it to correct, give it another read with the right word

cheers

Lol, until autocorrect intervened it said diminished, I can’t edit it to correct, give it another read with the right word

cheers

I wanted to be brief, but ended up ranting as this thread raised two issues. Re-pegging and Castel Helen abseil.
 

Re-pegging routes that have been onsighted, I think needs a wider discussion. Some I am in favour of others I am not. I do like the adventure of sea cliff climbing and all the added risk management associated with poor and/or missing pegs. 

Are these glu-in pegs actually going to be a long term solution, or will they just last 20-30 years rather than 5 to 10, and then be really hard to remove? Also, will the leverage and limited movement because they aren't in a nice even drilled hole eventually lead to damage of the resin and cause them to be loose but virtually impossible to remove without causing further harm?

Castle Helen belay - I see many of people set up appalling abseils anchors here, by basically just clipping the insitu pegs off which there are many. As such I am torn between making it 'accessible' for people who have not really got the idea that sea cliff climbing regardless of where you are is a lot more dangerous and you need to know 'all the tricks' to stay safe. But arguably making a decent belay it a basic skill! Or should we essentially remove all the pegs from this abseil and say it is now a trad belay and you need to sort it out properly. The fact is someone will probably rip the belay at some point if people don't back up pegs with one of two bomber wires within inches of the pegs.

Backing Up pegs and threads - This seems to be a rather diminishing art, whereby you should arguably view all in-situ gear as essentially abandoned equipment of unknown history (pegs, thread and even bolts). Probably because we come from a sanitised indoor environment where the wall will be doing weekly and monthly checks of all fixed equipment. We don't live in a nanny state, so arguably it is down the individual to decide whether they do back things up. But more climbers are leaving climbing wall and sport climbing at a high level, then transferring to trad, where they can climb VS/HVS within a day or so of learning to place gear, as such they arguably lose out on a large piece of the trad climber apprenticeship where these judgements of gear are formed. So is some of this re-pegging debate and the Castel Helen abseil really about questioning whether we let someone potentially die because they didn't bother to learn some basic skills, or do we change a long-held adventure ethic and glu in pegs at the CH belay to keep them safe or do we remove all pegs so they can't be stupid/lazy and instead have to learn those skills?

I don't know the answer to many of these questions to be honest.

Firstly, there’s an autocorrect error, feminised should read diminished, it does rather change the context.

If you knew me you’d realise that rules are the last thing that would attract me to an activity, mine or anyone else’s.

I’ve been at this long enough to see degradation which will leave less for those come after us, with some thought we might leave some of the adventure I’ve enjoyed so much.

And in the end, it’s an opinion, nothing more.

Yes I've used the ab on the strand but I'm agreed that it probably isn't necessary (although I can't remember what gear there actually is once you've turned the slab onto the stance).

 I remember climbing The Strand in about 1974ish. I recall the belay being a few poor nuts in shallow cracks on the slab. I recall saying to my second " glad you didn't come off this belay is sh1t we would both be on the deck" It must be bad if  I still remember that.

Hey Steve,

First and foremost, hope you're well - it's been ages!

Thanks for the clarification. It's really positive to hear that all the other old/rotten gear that's been removed, I suspect it's a much better/nicer route for it. That said, I'm still not 100% convinced about the need for a new peg low down - especially if there is a good wire next to it. Granted, you could kick it out, but you could kick pretty much any wire out - I don't see why this is any different?

Trad climbing is, if anything, a series of judgements, whether that be seating a wire properly, placing another wire (if necessary), arranging your ropes correctly, and not kicking wires out. Placing a peg there, at least in this day and age, just feels like it's dumbing that down during an age where we have plenty of alternatives.

To put this into further context, when the peg broke on London Wall a few years ago the decision was made not to replace it, because - given the presence of other reliable gear - it was considered an unnecessary luxury. The same risks exist on both routes, yet two different decisions have been made, and what I'm both curious and confused about is that it was Millstone - a quarried crag within the Peak District - where the decision was made to keep things clean, not Gogarth - a crag which is described as being "the crucible of adventure climbing".

I put a post on Facebook last week showing a photo of a peg that broke when I used the CH ab (I put the post on for a laugh so my mates could have a good laugh as I'm quite a big chap). Of course, I came to no harm because the peg was backed up with other pegs and nuts and equalised.

I like the ab point as it; there is a whole history of UK climbing written into the insitu gear. Though quite why someone chose to nest two knife blades is beyond me!

To use the station safely you need some experience and skill. Surely all part of the sea cliff experience. If the crag is too busy communicate with the other users or go somewhere else. Placing bolts won't get rid of the overcrowding.

As for the replacing of selected pegs on routes, I've come across that gentleman in the last couple of months and have benefitted from his work on Gogarth and other crags such as Forwyn.

I agree with Steve Long and am happy for these local climbers to make decisions on a route by route basis so long as they approach these tasks with an element of sensitivity.

incidentally, I had a chat with TPM at the crag recently and he confirms the the main belay on Daygo/pagan is still that piece of rebar held in by a wingnut.

That thing still gives me nightmares...

The UKC logbook says "Top of pitch 1 belay is now bomber (May 2012): 3 brand new pegs with rings to ab from. Thanks to whoever re-equipped it."

This makes me think it was possibly a bit of a mess and not bomber before this? I just used the pegged ab station as they looked good to me and I was abbing off to retrieve gear. 

Hi Rob, 

I respect your view about these routes because not only have you climbed most of the routes, but you also got up from your keyboard and put in the work to clean some of them. Many of the other people in this thread care so strongly about the routes that they haven't even touched them, which does make it rather easy to say let them die. We all care more about things and people that we actually know. At least one of the people writing about an onsight ascent of these routes inspected the route first or fell off during the onsight - I know that because I was holding the ropes! However, be that as it may, your solution for 15 Men kept the route clean for a season or two. I wish I had been up to it at that time, but I was working away a lot. This year I spent a full day cleaning it because I remembered how good it was when I first led it, onsight, back in the 80's. As I was cleaning away the mounds of lichen, I thought to myself "it's a shame that you have to climb past where the peg stump is before you can see where that there is a wire placement after another move". Yes, there is a reasonable cam slot below your feet when you start the sequence but its an awful long way to go, on sight without beta, to the next obvious rest or runner. Which I think explains the lack of traffic, and the resultant accumulation of lichen, a vicious spiral on much of Upper Tier. So I dropped a few hints, which is not too difficult if you climb regularly at Gogarth and are involved in cleaning away old bits of tat. All those routes btw have since received several genuine ground-up onsight free ascents, so if we are going to talk about "progress", this is worth a consideration. 

We are speaking here of a unique type of peg, which will not corrode. If this had been available when Boysen placed it, we wouldn't be having this discussion because it would still have been there, still a brilliant E5 and genuinely onsightable, even without beta. For those who haven't climbed it, I recommend getting on the route onsight, psyching up to pass the peg without clipping it, and then joining knowledgeably in a decision after that about whether the ongoing clean state of the holds warrant the desecration by a discrete sustainable in-situ runner, which sits in the original placement. Otherwise it would be best to admit that if you really cared that much you would have climbed it by now, and if you don't care that much perhaps to leave it to those who do and who have better things to do than spearhead a destruction of adventure climbing, far from it. 

It seems however that even we disagree about this particular route, and also the Cruise (see my note below). Which makes it difficult to have much faith in reaching a consensus. I mentioned the 80s, well that's how long I've waited to see this "consensus" arrive, and it still hasn't - but rust never sleeps! What I have seen is endless warnings about the thin end of the wedge, yet British trad climbing simply continuing to improve. I can remember when "Friends" were regarded as cheating, and furious debates ensuing. It will be interesting to see whether opinions about these pegs will mellow if they are allowed to mature rustlessly over the decades. I hope so. This technology could open up opportunities for some amazing new routes that offer a sustainable runner placement that could stop a ground fall, but if we are going to continue to go round in circles just because people refuse to accept that a long-life peg really can remain reliable for many decades, it seems to me like a lost opportunity. The debate would be more productive if we could move it from "yes/no" to something more nuanced like which crags and which routes. Even so, we would need to agree to disagree about one or two specific routes, but at least we would be starting from a constructive starting point based on an understanding of a long-term solution rather than just a new cycle of corrosion.  Two routes that I would suggest for consideration of a runner replacement would be Wastelands (again because of the lichen) and Gauntlet (because of its recent history). 

Agreed. Personally, I would have removed the lot from the Cruise and gained a net "cleanup" brownie point. Also I would have left Citadel alone - but I did replace the peg on Mammoth many moons ago and I'm sure that's pretty corroded by now...

Well said Steve!

 The debate would be more productive if we could move it from "yes/no" to something more nuanced like which crags and which routes. Even so, we would need to agree to disagree about one or two specific routes, but at least we would be starting from a constructive starting point based on an understanding of a long-term solution rather than just a new cycle of corrosion.  Two routes that I would suggest for consideration of a runner replacement would be Wastelands (again because of the lichen) and Gauntlet (because of its recent history). 

This would seem a sensible way to go, knowledgeable people taking a route by route approach. I fear it will be difficult to reach a consensus but it’s worth trying. It should be discussed at the BMC local meeting and a task force set up to manage/police things.

Hi Mark, I guess you go there relatively often so can you tell us what does the CH ab point look like currently? Is it something like the photos I linked to miles above from when I went there yonks ago? Or is it tied up and just the pegs there?

Thanks.

edit: the photos I mentioned are here https://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2007/07/superior-ethics-or-littering...

I have not been there this year, but last year and most of the time there is one or two ropes linking all the pegs to one point. Like in your photo. So to back it up all you need to do is link a wire to that one master point. 

Cheers Mark. I guess my question from back then still remains - when should the "adventure ethic" (or perhaps better described as a "non-drilled gear ethic", as I'm not sure half a dozen pegs tied together with 11mm static is really very adventurous) over-ride the environmental ethic, or at-least the "keep Britain tidy" no litter ethic. Not a question for you mind, just my general musings.

Hey Steve,

It's a genuine shame we're not having this conversation face-to-face, as I suspect our views are more aligned that our posts suggest (plus it'd be good to catch-up).

Something I said earlier, which due to the length of the thread has likely been lost, was about what was a 'necessary' and what was an 'unnecessary' replacement might be. This (I think?) is exactly the same as what you've suggested by saying that the debate needs to move beyond a simple 'yes/no' answer. Where exactly that line sits is what's up for debate, with some seeing it as black and white, whilst others sit in the middle. Either way, it's good to see it being discussed and I'm sure Tim Jepson will ably Chair the meeting which will provide something of an outcome.

All that aside, my recollection of Wastelands largely revolves around a) the greenery and b) the grade. It gets E4 6a in the Ground Up guide, but felt more like E5 6b in reality, although how much of this was influenced by the vegetation remains to be seen (I can't see the proliferation of sea grass making it any easier, that's for sure!!). Thankfully I had Dan McManus on my rack, so I unleashed him upon it and seconded with a very tight rope.

Hopefully see you out/about sometime anyhow. There was a period of time in my life where I'm pretty sure I saw you at Gogarth more than any other. A whole lot of fond memories both from then and from the Conville Course, which I'm eternally indebted to you for.

All the best!

Rob

Rob, I just looked up the thread I half remembered about a "discrete" belay bolt above the Sun at Rhoscolyn, it was in 2018. There is discussion in the thread of it being put on a BMC area meeting agenda for discussion. Did anything happen? I imagine probably not as I don't remember it being discussed on UKC again.

It was discussed at the BMC area meeting and will be in the minutes.

It did, but nothing happened - not sure anyone (barring me) was actually that bothered.

I’m gonna play devils advocate because I’m stuck at home with an isolating child but also because I think this is an important debate which needs to happen. 
 

I’m sure there were routes that 20 years ago had pegs that were deemed necessary, I’m also sure that those same pegs would now be seen as unnecessary by lots of people. If climber x deems a peg necessary on an E5 who is gonna tell climber y the peg he sees as necessary on an E2 isn’t. Either it’s one rule for all or this just becomes elitist bullshit with a few “chosen ones” choosing what is and isn’t ok.

Steve

Thanks for your posts, both on this and the other 'news item' thread.  They interjected a lot of good sense, importantly from the perspective of someone who actually has invaluable first hand experience of the issue, rather than someone reacting to what they think has happened, in the way they think they ought to react.  Such first hand experience was exactly what I tried to reflect in my own post yesterday.

I honestly think it is great that some folk are really trying to grasp this long standing conundrum and do something about it, as opposed to getting bogged down in the same old arguments whilst the routes revert to nature.

Nothing I've seen or read about this makes me fear that the great adventure ethic of Gogarth is under threat.  In fact the opposite is the case, in that we have a small number of mad-keen, highly experienced Gogarth adventurers, who have conducted careful research into potential solutions in an attempt to prevent a tiny number of important routes either reverting to nature - or (in the case of Barbarossa) becoming the preserve of E9 leaders armed with skyhooks, or top-roping wanabees, rather than the E6 leaders of old.

Given that recent BMC Peak Area Meetings seem to have all got bogged down in ODG updates and BMC internal politics, I think I might apply for a special dispensation to attend the North Wales one next time, in the hope that this issue not only makes the agenda, but also sees a reasoned and reasonable debate, something it so clearly merits.

Neil

I have hazy memories of it from 1980. I remember the belay ledge being very slopey and covered in grit like ball bearings, not very secure at all. I climbed 10 or 15 feet above it to find something to belay from. Certainly not bomber back then.

The thing that does stay in my mind was dancing about on the ball bearings, not tied on and looking down to see an empty harness on the ground and my second crouched behind a boulder with his trousers down. I presume the harness would eventually have caught somewhere had I gone for a ride.

If a pegless lead by a potential E7/8 leader makes that style the norm, then that precludes many E5 leaders from the original experience and like Neil says top roping on Gogarth is a non starter on the main cliff. Let’s be right on a lot of the older E5,s the pegs were shit after a couple of years, but they were there and gave you something to aim for.

I'm going to play the role of spineless cretin, as it's Friday night, I'm about to clock off, and I've got to feed my own child before they turn into a werewolf.

Also, I'm not really sure I've got the answer. A blanket 'black and white' decision is undoubtedly the easiest one to make, but I guess I'm a little intrigued by whether or not a balance can be found with certain very specific routes. Maybe it can, maybe it can't, but I guess I'm curious to see whether it could work. As I've said before, I'm not sure the balance is quite right as it is now, because it just seems pretty free reign, but maybe there's space...maybe...or maybe not...

That said, I am perfectly content never to climb a single E6 within the Leap - or climb Barbarossa - within my own lifetime, because that's something I resigned myself to a long time ago!

Reading all of the above is bringing on some serious feelings of deja vu, due to the fact we went through the exact same debates and discussions regarding the use of pegs, their longevity, replacement etc etc a few years ago down here on the North Coast of Cornwall.

There were a great number of us who it appears were in a similar line to many of the well put points in this thread that the only way this really can be done is on a case by case basis. For what its worth that was my stance, as mentioned by many there are pegs that are essential to the route and many that are not not required and it requires a sensible approach to discuss each of these case by case.

However as we can also see from this thread consensus is practically impossible and sadly the local "agreement" was that no new pegs are placed on the coast in either new routes or to replace old ones. This cannot be right as you definitely then get into the elitest argument not helped in the least by Dave Birkket coming down to Dyers and sticking a load of new pegs. Unsurprisingly these were conveniently ignored even though they went against the local agreement so in all honest even with a BMC agreement in place it still is actually done on a case by case basis.

I sincerely hope its a lot simpler at the North Wales meeting! 

Good Luck

I was there a week or so ago.  The old carabiner through the peg has gone, as has all the tat.  Now you just have a bunch of old pegs. 

Think it's been getting tidied up a bit recently to hopefully encourage people to add gear to the pegs.

A bolted anchor is much quicker to set up and dismantle, especially when the best gear placements are already in use, so parties move through more quickly and with less faffing.  

One bolt 3/5ths of the way up Indian Face would make for a cracking and still trouser filling E7. 

I think Calum is on the mark.

Where standards have improved, no need to re-peg. Where the peg was and is seen as integral to the route, re-peg. And by all means re-peg in a way that is sound, safe and durable. But, the aim should be to improve on approach where possible.

Fair point, as long as we chip the holds a bit to make it e9 again.

Or we could just climb the rocks, as they are, while placing our own gear

Steve, thanks so much for your valuable input and comments

However, about your comment "Many of the other people in this thread care so strongly about the routes that they haven't even touched them": can I please just say that the fact that I haven't done Great Wall (E4 6a) or Mammoth (E5 6b) (I never got round to them - and my age, and physical condition, now completely exclude the possibility) does not mean that I do not care about them or could not care about them with an equal passion to someone who has done them or is planning to do them. I care on principle, as a lifelong climber

Another example - I care about the Appalachians even though I've never been there and now never will. Though I've spent a lot of time in mountains around the world

Thanks for listening and happy climbing

I would debate  ""much quicker", but in any case once the first party has clipped into the bolts, they have effectively blocked the placement for anyone else.

Not with rings on them. You wouldn't set up an anchor aimed for multiple use with just bolts...

Thanks for your reply Steve. I know we spoke about this when climbing together at length last week and think you're approach to taking a nuanced approach is reasonable. However, I would like to pick you up on a few of your points.

First the peg-bolts. I think we need to be honest about these. They are resin bolts. They are fabricated stainless steel with grooves in them so that they will work with resin. They have to go into a drilled hole wider than the peg with space for the resin to work. Having placed a number of resin bolts and held these, the only difference is that these resin bolts are designed to look like pegs. Calling these bolts sustainable is also strange. They are significantly less sustainable than trad gear. These bolts will also have a shelf life, albeit longer than normal pegs, and they are nigh on impossible to remove other than taking the head off with an angle grinder.

If we simplify the argument to: Should bolts be placed at Gogarth? I think the answer would bring us to a fairly clear consensus - no ifs, no buts: bolts have never been accepted at Gogarth. This is the thin end of the wedge!

You go on to say that you think that pegs would be unnecessary in The Strand, but on the equally well protected E5 The Cruise they are valid. I do not understand this argument and I also don't agree that you can just choose to ignore clipping the bolts - if they're there, you clip them (unless you have stronger will power than I). I belayed you on The Cruise some ten years ago the same day you belayed me on Barbarossa. We both enjoyed our experiences at their respective levels of difficulty without bolts going ground-up and they were both perfectly clean to climb. Telling me that Barbarossa would be E4 if it wasn't for the short E6/7 bit is a ridiculous argument! In that case I've red-pointed a couple of 9a's without the hard bit now!

I truly believe that Gogarth is the heart of Welsh adventure climbing and I'm pretty sure you'd agree with me on that front considering how much we both love climbing there. Placing bolts, even if they are where the old pegs were (many of which have been dubious to say the least for thirty years) changes that experience. If I can no longer climb a few routes if they don't have bolts in them because I'm not strong/fit/brave enough then that's life - there are always better climbers who will be able to and I can challenge myself for the physical difficulty of climbing at Lower Pen Trwyn or the Beacon.

Before UKC published this piece there were a small number of climbers who wished me not to mention the peg issue and keep it hush hush so that nobody would know that bolts are being placed at Gogarth on routes they like to do. I think that is fundamentally wrong at a crag of national importance and harks to an 'old boys club' mentality. This discussion is better out in the open and I think this thread is a positive reflection of a healthy discussion exposing us to opinions outside of our own 'echo chambers'.

Calum (and Steve), With you saying they’re bolts and Steve saying pegs, I think we need photos of the pegs and also a few photos of some of the placements. Otherwise it’s just your word against his.

There is a difference between presenting an issue fairly to the way in which it was presented in the "round-up" article.

It has done a disservice to the "round-up". UKC should have edited it out of the round-up and requested an opinion piece if they wanted that part published.

Evangelical fundamentalism is for the naive; the real world is full of compromise (because, realists understand this is the only sensible way to get things done).

PS: What about the rotting ironmongery in the back wall of Wen Zawn?

Well said Callum a great post / response and thanks for bringing this to the attention of a wider audience

The secrecy and lack of transparency with all of this is in my opinion pretty pathetic really.

I was asked a number of years ago to place one of these so called 'pegs' on a trad route at Penmaenbach Quarry The Shouting Stage (E5 6a) I declined to do so as it was obvious to me that they were actually no different to resin bolts and also I didn't like the secrecy behind it all. Interesting that the identity of the equipper behind all this is also being kept secret. If he or she is so passionate about Gogarth why are they unwilling to get involved in any debate on here?

Steve has attempted to explain in greater detail but I think this could be done with more information and photos so that others can make a really informed judgement as to where they stand with all this? Perhaps an article on here or various magazines including the BMC's Summit magazine including detailed photos of the pegs / bolts before and after being placed.

Thankyou for clarifying, and it feels like others in the know have been rather disingenuous here. I didn't realise drilling was necessary, and if that's correct it seems a clear line has been breached. Pegs are classed as trad gear because they rely on weaknesses in the rock to be placed well / at all. The significant thing to me is not that these new 'pegs' have been placed in cracks and where old pegs were previously, but that they COULD be placed elsewhere. This is a worrying development. Drilling of any sort should not be tolerated at Gogarth or other adventurous cliffs. 

What secrecy? Must one give notice to place a peg on UKC 90 data in advance of planned day of placements? It's not like they've painted then to hide the placements? If you'd been to Gogarth, you'd have seen them.

Castings aspersions without the full facts comes across as pretty pathetic to me.

Maybe the person/people cleaning these routes isn't on here because:

Not everyone is on UKC, nor sees UKC as the best place to discuss these issues

They are one of a very few that are not simply talking/writing but actually doing (including removing jammed wires and cleaning)

They're not very computer literate.

When I was asked to place the bolt on The Shouting Stage, I was told that this was to be kept hush, hush / secret! 

As Callum points out they are BOLTS!!!! Pretending that they are something else is nonsense.

Excellent post. Regardless of your view it’s important people are informed properly of exactly what is going on. 
 

They sound like bolts to me..... I’m against replacing pegs even without the glue! Can we have a picture of one of these pegs....?

This really seems like a step backwards.

Out of interest, do you think it would be ok to replace them with regular pegs?

For those asking about appearance, the peg bolts look like a beefy stainless peg.

I’ve clipped a few of these pegs recently  (Barbarossa and the strand)and have been glad for them both times. Does that make them right, I don’t know.

A few people have mentioned the bolt at the top of the Sun, I couldn’t find it the last few times I have been to Rhoscolyn (having used it previously) has it been removed or am I just blind? There has been quite a few actual pegs placed in the interim too which seemed a bit unnecessary.

I find it somewhat ironic that somebody under the pseudonym "Ssshhh" is telling me that there is no secrecy about this!

I've tried not to cast aspersions or bring the individual in question up in this discussion as I think the questions is more widely about whether pegs should be replaced with bolts at Gogarth. Please be specific with what full facts I haven't presented.

Not everyone is on UKC, which is why this is also going to the BMC local area meeting on Tuesday. Not everybody is at the BMC local area meeting, but fortunately this conversation will also happen outside of both these places.

Because this person is "doing" does not make it the write thing. I have also cleaned routes and re-bolted in north Wales - it does not make my opinion any more or less valid.

I don't have any pictures of the bolt-pegs either inside or outside their placements for authenticity. Whilst I would probably struggle to get my hands on one outside of the placements after this conversation, I can take a picture of a placement next time I climb one of them. I have held them before, as has Ian who replied above me. There really is no great secret to these being resin bolt shaped pegs.

To state that replacing these pegs with bolts is a like for like replacement is patently untrue. They're two different things - pegs can be notoriously unreliable even when new, bolts shouldn't be.

Good post, interesting.   Before I read that they were actually drilled and resined pegs (bolts) I was thinking the replacement of the pegs was unnecesary now I'm definitely against it. 

I was going to mention the London Wall comparison but Rob G beat me to it,  in that there's a route where a couple of pegs were nice to have but not essential.  No one would replace them now even less so drill and resin them..  I've done Citadel and the Cruise ( not recently) and like others have said I remember there being adequate other gear at the grade as pegs were rubbish even then, ie if you're onsighting E5 on Gogarth you can manage.

Re Barbarossa and other routes where the peg is more crucial then I would still argue well let pegs rot, if grade changes those good enough will still do it albeit at a different grade to the FA ( why does that matter?) and will have sussed out whether peg is in place . Those who can't, won't.

I'm surprised by the attitude of some trad stalwarts  who posted earlier who are saying yes peg replacement fine. Must be getting soft in their old age. Do they still feel the same knowing that the pegs have been drilled and resined in place (if that is true)?

There is a whole load of ironmongery on Gogarth as was necessitated when routes were established but move on people, it ain't the 60's anymore and Gogarth is there to be climbed on with a pure trad heart and mind as that is its special quality.   It doesn't need to be made more accessible/convenient.  We've got Horseshoe Quarry for that.

All the comments you address (secrecy, aspersions) were in reply to Sl@te Head not you, hence the separate post.

However, in response to you, you are continuing to state opinions as facts. As Jon wrote earlier, until we have evidence it is really not worthy of further public debate.

The ironmongery in the back wall of Wen Zawn dates from the 90s not the 60s.

Is it the same as this one at the top of Rhoscolyn? This is on mark hounslea's ukc photos. I remember a plethora of these suddenly appearing at the top of the crag. 

Yes, of course, there are pegs from all eras at Gogarth, just making the point that while pegs may have been used on a FA they don't necessarily have to be replaced (or replaced with drilled and glued resin pegs..) when they rot.    

Hi Neil, Thanks for this. I heard you topping out on 15 Men! Given that we are all locked down in Wales, the meeting will be virtual. It would be useful for more people who actually know the routes attending so that we can have a discussion based on reality rather than theory. (I'm happy to talk about the E2's as well, because I've climbed them also). So I'm sure you would be welcome. Armchair experts less so. 

Do you take a bolt kit on your expeditions with Leo?

Yep. 

Why? The route was put up without a bolt. I don't see the relevance. 

Here you go. I have an image of the old peg and the new. I'll leave it for you to make your own mind up whether it's a bolt or not. Convenient how every placement is exactly the same shape to fit such a novel design of peg.

That's one of the pegs above the crag at Rhoscolyn. I counted 3, including a replacement for the bolt that has been there for about a decade, maybe longer, but hidden under a moveable turf so that only locals could use it. Presumably placing that one involved drilling out the metal and replacing it with a long-life glued peg. Maybe the bolt should not have been drilled in the first place, but I think the replacement is at least honest. 

They're not pegs, they're warthogs and bulldogs. They form almost the entirety of the belays

New pegs on the Cruise?

WTF

That one statement sadly says so much....

Could have done with some of those at the top of centrefold after unleashing my entire rack into it! :') 

I didn't say they weren't.  I was being general.    What's your point exactly? other than splitting hairs?   

I thought your constant reference to "pegs" was quite specific tbh.

I was only pointing out that "things" are more complicated. It's not simply "pegs"; fixed gear is not simply the product of historic ethics/styles; it's not simply peg runners (but entire belays).

But if you wish to take a simple stance, that's your prerogative.

Fixed (EDIT: possibly resined, possibly not) peg, singular. Replacing an existing metal spike.

"just the facts, ma'am."

A healthy debate, thanks to Callum for raising the subject. Also think it would have been better as an Op. Ed. 

Two cheers to the shy manufacturer and equipper who has been trying to do something positive about the thorny question of pegs on sea cliffs, even though I don’t agree with a lot of his choices. It’s 40 years since I had any involvement with metallurgy so I’ll have to take on trust he’s done his homework. As I expect he knows, historically, stainless pegs have failed unexpectedly with minimal signs of corrosion. I support the selective like-for-like replacement of crucial pegs with reliable, long-lasting stainless steel pitons but that’s not what is happening here. 

I’ve belayed from the stainless pegs at the top of Rhoscolyn. Some of the cracks they are in are barely seams and I wondered at the time if some of them had had a little creative enlargement (with a drill). I was happy to use them which I suppose means I tacitly agreed with this.  

I’ve also used the stainless anchors at the top of Uphill Quarry (not a “beacon of adventure climbing”!). At first glance these look like stakes but given their solidity and the minimal amount of topsoil I’m guessing there is a drilled hole in the underlying rock. Perhaps Mark Davies can confirm? Something like this might be a good option for the Castell Helen abseil if a fixed anchor is deemed desirable. I’ve never had a problem with setting up my own abseil point here though. It’s a popular venue for instruction, is this driven by professionals? Whatever solution is chosen, it cannot be hard steel pitons. 

There has been an abseil point at the top of pitch one of The Strand for decades and, to my mind, stainless pegs make sense here. I have grovelled up the crappy HVS 4b pitch and hobbling back to the gearing up point. I have no interest in repeating this in modern rock shoes. I’d support something similar at the top of Esgair Maen Gwyn. 

I heard about the protection pegs last summer. I am much less  relaxed about them for reasons others - notably Callum - have said. On all the routes I’ve climbed, failed on, or belayed someone on - The Strand, Citadel, Fifteen Men... and The Cruise - peg replacement is unnecessary for the reasons others have outlined. I won’t comment on routes I’ve not had experience of, some of them may be good choices. 

I've been semi aware of this happening over the last year or whatever and it always had a bit of a 'hush hush' feel to it. Like many (most) I didn't really know the full extent of what was going on in terms of placement enhancement and technology/materials.

As a result of this dishonesty I just thought they were 'sustainable pegs' and didn't think much more of it. It's starting to feel like a small number of people are just doing what the hell they want, going against local ethics and being pretty dishonest about the specifics of what they are doing.

Well done to Calum for subtly (?) dropping this into the article and starting a discussion on here and, in turn, at the bmc meet.

PS. I have done all of the routes in question pre bolts, except Barbarossa (which I'd like to do one day, without bolts) 

Calum, several of the pegs have been placed with no resin. Others have been placed with resin to prevent them pivoting. You have misquoted me about the Cruise. There is one peg there instead of the original 2, and I personally don't think its valid -  as I hinted. The Cruise is now in excellent clean condition, and if anybody wants to remove the peg it's perfectly easy to do, because as far as I'm aware it is just hammered in a crack like a..... peg. 

As for the Strand, not "would" but "was". I didn't clip the pegs when I was climbing E2 max, but that was 40 years ago. You'll have to take my word for it that they were there and surrounded by good gear - not protecting the start of a crux sequence where the previous runner is at foot level. Right next to Strand is Mayfair. I climbed that in the 80's, it was a nice E3 but relied on a peg runner. I don't think its ever been repeated since the peg broke.

Yes, these new (unique) pegs have been designed to work with or without resin. The idea is that a peg will offer more than just psychological protection or russian roulette for an onsight leader climbing at the guidebook grade. Yes, I think that one or two of them are "contoversial" but I think that it's a shame that in the interest of transparency this has been escalated into a Kangaroo Court about all of them (maybe 10...?) Yes, I'm aware that replacing pegs involves chiseling or more efficiently, drilling. IMO drilling metal is OK, drilling rock is wrong. I'm willing to accept it on faith that rock hasn't been drilled, but I cant prove that, apart from the routes that I remember from having seen the peg remains. 

The only reason that I'm even bothering to answer on UKC or Facebook is because the person who placed them has done so much for crag stewardship throughout North Wales, but avoids the internet 100%. He's somebody who avoids group debates but prefers to discuss things in context, at the crag with whoever he bumps into. Anybody who climbs regularly in North Wales will have met him and received an earful about the deliberations and soul searching that went into all this. 

With respect, I would say that before stating unequivocally that removing all pegs (or letting them rot) is progress, anybody who has placed a peg on any route should set the example by removing their peg and then belaying somebody trying to onsight the route subsequently. My philosophy is that if you need to be an E6 leader to onsight a classic E5 it's no longer an E5, its E6. The Strand was always a soft onsight E2 with or without pegs. Are we really saying that the best thing about a peg is that you should assume it will break if you weight it? I think it would be better to be able to assume the opposite. But routes that are regularly getting onsighted sans peg should stay that way. It's easy enough to get a feel of that from UKC logbooks as a reasonable starting point, the answer is that the routes in question weren't. Not a problem at most crags, but the lichen here soon notices.  

Yes it does! I've climbed maybe 200 routes at Rhoscolyn (including the repeats) and I never knew about that bolt until I happened across it fairly recently. I can see why it was hidden though, judging by the reactions to this news piece. It's a shame because I honestly don't see how backing up my belay spoils the climb, and that's with 40 years' experience of constructing trad belays. I expect somebody leading their first E1 would be quite grateful for the effort, specially as they no longer have to run their ropes over the coastal path.

It appears you have not verified any of the "facts" that have been claimed in this forum.

I think people should, generally, be more civil and cautious with their language to avoid libelous remarks, such as calls of dishonesty.

I've taken numerous foreign climbers to Gogarth over the years and have at the beginning carefully explained to them that all the pegs are historical quirks, rusty weigh points to indicate the route only.

Placing pegs on routes such as The Cruise which are perfectly protectable on the off chance that people are incompetent enough to kick their gear seems such a huge departure from this I can't really see how the benefits outweigh the negatives.

As for the boulder routes it also seems shortsighted. They have all been climbed without the pegs and undoubtedly will continue to be climbed. Dealing with badly protected routes in a key feature of Gogarth.

I'm not sure what the problem is with routes getting harder.

Take another Gogarth horror show, Dogs of War (E4 5c)? (6c), in the midst of the sandy ledge shuffling terror one passes a joke of a peg.

This route was undoubtedly easier when this was new and would undoubtedly be easier if someone took it upon themselves to replace it. More people might even climb the route.

I'd strongly suggest it's a better route in its current state, we are capable of being better than our predecessors.

Obviously I’m no angel and I’m not against fixed protection. All I’ve done is offer an opinion. I don’t believe my opinion counts any more or any less than anyone else’s. I don’t subscribe to the view that just because someone has climbed the routes their opinion counts for more. What happens now could potentially set a precedent that reaches much further than North Wales we all as a community need to make an informed choice about if this is okay or not.

But is the rock actually drilled to place these pegs? It looks the wrong shape for a round hole.

Square peg in a round hole" is an idiomatic expression which describes the unusual individualist who could not fit into a niche of their society.

There seem to be a few people pro these pegs that have already done the routes, I don’t really understand why they are so keen to see them reinstated to their former state.

This much I can verify.

I think it's also worth mentioning, in light of people objecting to the 'secrecy' of all this, that he is also generously forthcoming to anyone and everyone at the crag with information and recommendations of routes. Someone who is clearly very passionate and motivated for other people to enjoy the fruits of his labour.

No need to start sh*t stirring Ian, this isn't a public shaming event.

An answer to this question will definitely inform the debate, hopefully it will be forthcoming.

I've really enjoyed this thread, it is the first in a long time that I have properly followed. I've held off until now on adding my 2 cents worth, mostly because I've thought that, compared with other commentators, I don't have any reputation and have barely climbed at Gogarth. But this is somewhat wrong and hopefully my below thoughts will explain why.

Throughout the thread, I've felt that there is one key aspect of the debate, which hasn't been given due attention. It is has been touched on by a few commentators but I think goes to the heart of the matter to ask:

    What do we, as a community, want to leave in place for the next and future generations and for those who have yet to experience Gogarth?

Many of the arguments, both for and against peg replacement, have been framed within either an historical context (for eg. the peg was place by the FA so is therefore ok), or in terms of the here-and-now (for eg. without peg X on route Y it won't be climbable at Z grade). I think that reframing the question away from "are bolts Ok" to instead asking what will we leave behind for the next generation brings some clarity.

Personally, I think it is important that we preserve the risk, danger, and adventure that exists at Gogarth.

As such, I disagree with replacing old pegs at Gogarth, particularly with glue-in pegs like that shown in Callum's photo. In my view, "pegs" such as this are, for all intents and purposes, simply glue-in bolts. With the exception of the square cross-section, the peg in Callum's photo reminds me and looks the same as the glue-in bolts that are commonly used in places such as the Blue Mountains.

With the exception of pegs that can, and are removed on second, the act of placing (and leaving) any fixed gear fundamentally brings the climb down to ones level (whatever level that may be) and changes the rock/route, sometimes near permanently, for all future climbers. In some way this removes the choice that future climbers/generations may otherwise have had. This isn't a criticism of the FA's, I've read The White Cliff cover-to-cover so definitely have an appreciation for those who pioneered the cliffs, even if I am new to the scene.

As others have pointed out, hand-place pegs quickly degrade in a sea-cliff environment and at some point must be considered suspect. Once a peg is suspect, any following ascents have essentially be completed with only the psychological aid of the fixed gear, thus in some/most respects proving the route/s are possible sans-peg/s. Once a peg has degraded to the point that replacement is "necessary", we have a choice, either (1) replace it like-for-like, knowing that the new peg will also soon be considered suspect, or (2) replace it with something more permenant and secure, thereby changing the route, or (3) decide not to replace it, acknowledging that climbing standards, and passive and active gear technology have and will continue to improve.

Within the context of Gogarth being the epitome of adventurous, sea-cliff trad climbing in the UK, I think that option (3) is the best option. If placing a blanket, no-new/replacement pegs stipulation over Gogarth means that some routes have to re-graded, and some routes lose popularity and become covered in lichen, then I'm ok with that, since it means we haven't taken any options away from the future potential climbers. After all, the cliff was certainly lichen covered for the first ascentionists, so why is it so important that they remain clean and instantly climbable now?

????? 

Yet you're happy to publicly shame me!

I couldn’t agree more with your sentiments it’s really important everyone speaks up whichever side of this they are on. 

When I first heard about the glued in pegs on the Strand belay I thought they were a good idea as the old belay was an accident waiting to happen. However, I did hope that it wasn't going to spread further on the crag..

Last year i heard about the new glued in peg on Barbarossa and I though it was a little cheeky but it did return the route to closer to its original character so maybe it was justified (It also meant I might actually do it one day ). I did hope the it wasn't going to spread further...

Now it turns out that 15 Men, The Cruise and Citadel have all sprouted similar pegs (all of which I'd done before the new pegs for what it's worth). I think these are pretty hard to justify as the routes can be made safe without them, and not even particularly run out by E5 standards.

I sort of hate to use this phrase but it really does feel like the "thin end of the wedge" in action.

I'm not sure the "increased traffic keeping the routes clean" argument really stands up either. Every so often there will be some overly keen local who scrubs something up and there will be a brief flurry of ascents before it's reclaimed by nature. It's not like these routes are lost forever.

At the risk of repetition, this is quite hard to discuss on the internet, rather than by climbing year in year out at Gogarth Upper Tier and witnessing the gradual encroachment of lichen and the loss of numerous routes. This is partly due to climate change. If you ask somebody like Marion Winteringham they will tell you that they are amazed at how green the crag is now. It's great to see everybody saying how brilliant the adventure tradition is at Gogarth and how bold the routes are. However, onsight clean ascents are definitely not as common as the casual reader may be led to believe from reading this thread. Leading a route that is pushy for your grade is a different experience ground-up compared to climbing it after top-rope inspection. What we have here are a few routes that have been virtually ignored for several years, now restored to the guidebook grade - in most cases the grade was in reality pretty well a guess because nobody had climbed the routes since the CC guide was produced. The reason they were not being climbed is because on-sight attempts were ending at the last runner below the peg - the insitu failure point (nut and krab) on 15 Men was there for years, marking the point where E5 leaders generally backed off, if they got that far up the lichen. Yes, it's a public service. Rob Greenwood cleaned the route about a decade ago, and it saw a brief flurry of activity, but gradually the attempts reduced and the lichen returned.

After brushing the route, which I did recently, leading the pitch was a formality because I knew exactly where that bold run out ends (as it happens, a move or two after the peg but you cant see that from below). However, somebody else took the trouble to replace the peg for the benefit of future ascents, not for a year or two but for decades. Like me, I know he is perfectly capable of cruising the right after inspection, and he also remembered onsighting the route in its clean state. Personally, I really don't care. I've had my fun, its a great route again. People who have led it onsight since then haven't complained about the spirit of the climb, quite the opposite. In my opinion they are the most reliable judges, since they are the people who the route was cleaned and re-equipped for. My recommendation would be to let these few routes stand the test of time, but place a moratorium on further peg runner replacement, in order to focus on the more pressing issue of belay and abseil pegs - but that's just my penny's worth. However, I would rather see a return to Gogarth being a popular crag rather than a semi-abandoned shrine requiring abseil cleaning before attempting anything with one or less stars in the guidebook. I'm ambivalent about Barbarossa; the feedback from recent ascents has been positive, but for people who can solo 7b I suspect that the peg feels like a cop out (less so if the lichen returned though). 

I've expressed an opinion that personal knowledge of this crag helps in making an informed opinion. However, I should add that people who don't know the crag so well need to consider that without a degree of active stewardship at Gogarth and many other N.Wales crags, you will find a return to the ugly state of the crags that we saw in previous decades, and need to be prepared for an epic on what used to be pleasant climbs if you come over for a weekend hit.

My experience in the US is that bolts added to a route after the first ascent (we don't yet have glued-in pitons), and bolts added for belay or rappel anchors, no matter how they are justified, no matter what is said, if anything, about the placement being some kind of special exception, always produce more bolts.  ALWAYS.  And as the bolts multiply, the demand for more of the same increases, the climbing population becomes more and more conditioned to and increasingly dependent on finding fixed anchors, and the number of self-appointed "crag improvers" goes up and up.   There's usually a substantial asymmetry in their actions, because undoing their efforts at "public service" is almost always more difficult and more problematic than the placing of fixed anchors.

It seems to me that unless the FA party has egregiously violated existing norms, the fixed pitons they placed deserve to be maintained IF the modern gear cannot be substituted in close proximity.  It's trad climbing, so maintain the traditional level of security established by the first ascenders.

I would argue that the main reason the routes don’t get climbed is much simpler; the distraction of more attractive high quality safe sport climbing down the road at Llandudno 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I get that this is going over things already stated above, I just think it helps to keep things clear and concise.

First up these “pegs”.... I’m with Calum to all intents and purposes they might as well be a staple when used with glue. How many have been placed without? Any placed with a little bit of glue to stop them twisting or whatever are essentially just badly placed glue in bolts.

These pegs have been placed to make it easier to onsight these routes than it is when they are in their natural state. 
 

They have returned these routes back to the propositions they were when they were first climbed.

Can we all agree that’s a fair summary of what’s been done?

Are we ok with this??

I’m conscious im repeating myself here but I’d rather lose a few routes to nature (there are literally hundreds of routes to go at)than to start putting in pegs/staples to preserve the feel and experience of when they were first climbed more than 20+ years ago and to help keep  the lichen at bay!

For me it will be a really sad day for British trad climbing if this is allowed to continue I think that until an agreement is reached no more “pegs” should be placed

I Don’t doubt it’s been done with good intentions but it’s kinda sad the wider climbing community hasn’t had the chance to have a say. If someone with good intentions wants to take them out is it ok to do so? 
 

I think we should be preserving the strong traditions we have, in particular in areas like Gogarth and much as I absolutely hate to say it I think it could be the thin end of the wedge. I sincerely hope it isn’t, and that the sense of adventure that can be found on our sea cliffs is there for others in future.

I just don’t buy into the vegetation argument either...

Wimberry is considerably greener due to lichen than it has ever been due to less polluted air from the mill chimneys in Oldham is it ok to pour bleach down the crag to make it easier to onsight E5’s up there?

I'm sure these things will be discussed at the next local area meeting. I will try to prepare a short paper to break these issues down into logical components, because they are all getting blurred together in this thread, as is wont to happen in this sort of debate. Top of crag, stance, runner. These are emotive issues I know, but on the other hand there have been some serious accidents at Gogarth including deaths, so we do need to consider these things carefully. Climbers like myself learned our craft with the luxury of peg anchors that were reasonably forgiving of poor belay skills, and probably got away with a lot more than we are aware of. It's only when you take a fall factor 2 or slip during an abseil that you really learn whether your belay is as strong as you thought. There will be people at the meeting who had to pick up the pieces. 

There are a lot of people getting worked up about some very discrete "eyes" in cracks or holes and ignoring the yards of cord that now festoon the crag. We are going to need to start thinking about whether that is acceptable too. We seem to have a highly developed sporting ethic for trad climbing (although we don't even record the first onsight flash, which seems ironic) but virtually ignore the aesthetics of the general crag appearance, under our stewardship. Anybody who is keen enough to go to the trouble of removing any of the pegs should consider that, as they abseil in from the ins situ station. It would be nice also if they commit to giving the route a wire brushing every few years in order to give something constructive to the community. Personally, its no skin off my nose. I've done my bit with wire brushing, and I don't replace pegs these days, because the old style pegs are time bombs. The pegs I replaced on routes like Mammoth are now rusty relics, but if that's progress, I'm happy to go with the flow - however, I'm glad that the kangaroo court didn't notice them or they would probably be long gone, and the route become another 1 star E7.

As for Wimberry(?!) I'm happy to leave the crag stewardship to the locals. If they keep the crag clean and in a fit state for a day visit I'll probably be very grateful, after all it's only a pastime. In the midst of a global pandemic I have more important things to worry about. 

Maybe, but guess who is responsible for that? Personally I love the adventure of Gogarth and would rather go there any day. 

I find it hard to imagine universal consensus ever being reached on this sort of thing. Even if it was, it would soon change, or someone would find an edge case or exception. What would acceptable 'agreement' look like? And in the absence of agreement, what is the default position?

I agree crag top, stance and runner are all very different, my major gripe is with runners to be clear.

Climbing is dangerous for me risk management is part of the appeal, I’ve lost friends climbing and dealt with the aftermath as well  but that doesn’t really have any place in the debate does it? Or are we saying we should make climbing everywhere  safer. Isn’t the point that we have places to learn our skills in a safe environment and also places to test those skills. 
 

I don’t think anyone is getting worked up are they? This seems like a fairly reasoned good natured discussion(which often isn’t the norm on here).

I couldn’t agree more re the miles of rope hanging off our crags, but that is a whole other thing isn’t it? And much less straightforward than placing bolts. Although perhaps this ends with crucial threads being replaced by staples for all the reasons we are currently discussing....?

Im not for a second implying that someone with good intentions should remove them, it will make a real mess and they are probably best left. My point was people should be asked before things like this ,either putting in or taking out. 
 

Thank you for your stewardship at Gogarth with regards cleaning routes. Is this any more important than trying to preserve an ethic, idea or area for the future? Does it make your opinion carry more weight than mine or anyone else’s?

I get the impression you believe locals should be able to do as they wish? Whilst I’m happy to listen to their views I’m not happy for them to push on with things that aren’t ok with the majority, and I would hope that we all would stop a wimberry local doing such thing? Just because someone  lives geographically close or climbs there regularly means sweet Fa when it comes to f*cking up our crags and environment.

I’m currently not a member of the BMC but I will try to attend the meeting I’m fine with accepting a majority decision either way, I just feel it’s something very important that is much more than a local concern. Thanks for taking the time to reply and keeping it civil.

what do you think? At least wait til it’s been discussed otherwise we just end up with people doing whatever they like, which given all  the different views will end up a clusterf*ck

I don't know either, it's tricky.

On the one hand, if everything had to be passed by committee, nothing progressive would ever get done, and the more active crag developers and stewards would be disincentivised from doing good work.

On the other, a free for all, which like you say ends up a clusterf*ck. I don't know if the current situation is really as bad as that - someone does something that oversteps a mark now and then, but it tends to blow up like this has before it gets out of hand. After all, the amount of fixed gear we're talking about here you could hold in one hand.

I think the key bit that people have issue with is not the visual impact of the ironmongery, but the way it got there. ... Using a [power?] drill on the rock and then pouring in a chunk of glue/ resin

For me that is the fundamental problem.  You just don't do that when trad climbing.

So a hammer and chisel and a mechanical "bolt" is o.k?

I didn't mention Dogs of War, but since you ask, yes the peg made little difference and is not missed. Nobody I know has ever suggested replacing it. But the idea of a case by case discussion would be exactly like this. So, Dogs of War is fine, but have a look at the pegs on "Me" next time you are up there. 

Correction, I'm reliably informed that without the pegs Mammoth would remain the same grade and quality. Highly recommended, I think the Direct is one of the best routes on the cliff.  

Are you saying the natural state of the crags was ugly?

I can't think how you can think that a brand new glued in peg on The Dogs... would not make a huge difference.

It seems like a real case of double standards. E2's allowed to drift up to E4 as pegs corrode but E5s maintained through retrograde fixed gear replacement.

Why not accept that these routes are just harder. Better and harder without the fixed gear. You speak about failure of E5 leaders on 15 men as evidence we need to place fixed gear. Could we not just upgrade to E6 and see it become popular  as people get on it expecting what they get.

(The Cruise seems to be the most egregious with fixed gear placed to protect people from their own incompetence. If you can't safely climb the bottom five meters you have zero chance of climbing the route)

"I can't think...", "It seems". Seems pretty clear that this is a very subjective topic. We'd do well to appreciate that climbing is many (differing) things to many people.

Could we not just upgrade to E6 and see it become popular as people get on it expecting what they get.

Pretty unlikely since there's about half (fewer) as many climbers who "regularly" OS E6 compared to E5. But I wouldn't like to claim that popularity should be used as a justification for anything.

Better and harder without the fixed gear

This is a subjective statement of opinion that you (appear to) claim as a fact. It's a broad church; this is your opinion.

In a previous comment you spoke about benefits and negatives. I challenge anyone to explain and attempt to quantify these these concepts, as applied to replacing fixed gear, in any objective fashion.

I’m all in favour of the pegs on Eroica  being replaced in a sustainable fashion.

Reading this thread, there seems to be a lot of climbers who are far keener on breaking their legs than I am.

I thought climbing was supposed to be fun, not some mortal battle between man and rock.

I'm not convinced by this argument that it is a bad thing if, say, a great E5 is lost and replaced by an E6 which fewer people will get to climb if a rotting peg is not replaced with one of these drilled/glued things. If the policy is not to replace any rotting fixed gear then that E5 will, in the grand scheme of things be replaced by an upgraded E4 and, on average, everyone will still have just as many great routes to climb at their grade.

You seem to be assuming a uniform distribution of pegs across grades (and that a peg's mean impact on a route's grade is uniform) that is, I would opine, not reality.

I also don't think your "this argument" is the only "argument" in this thread.

I think some people are proposing that there should not be a uniform policy at all.

Is Eroica now at Gogarth? When did this happen? I’m outraged!

Like comparing apples and pies; The peg on Eroica was an aid point for most. The route hasn’t become significantly more dangerous without the peg, but actually harder as aiding the crux is now not possible. On the Culm, we are having the same kinds of discussions: Should routes done originally with pegs have them replaced to keep the grade the same or should they be left to rot with the resulting increase in grade. Very tricky to know what is best for climbers or the crag when anything left in situ rots so fast and is an unknown quantity to those who come after the placer of the peg  

James

Some pegs have been replaced at Stoney in recent years, Helicon (E2 5c), Windhover (E2 5c). At Avon there is a managed scheme of peg replacement(seems to work quite well). I am sure there are loads more examples. I suppose with Gogarth it’s a bigger issue because of its iconic adventure climbing status. Also it’s been done without consultation with stakeholders and it doesn’t sound like a like for like replacement.

Im not totally opposed to the occasional fixed gear replacement but it needs to be done sympathetically and only as an exception such as where a route character is significantly changed by the loss of fixed gear(however that is judged!). Crucially it needs to a process where a consensus of sorts has been reached by the key stakeholders, hopefully this is what can be agreed at the BMC meeting...but don’t hold your breathe. I’d be happy with a policy of no fixed gear replacement or a policy of limited fixed gear replacement as I’ve outlined above.If fixed gear is to be reviewed it should be done so for some lower grade routes as well. 
 
When I’ve climbed at Gogarth in recent years it is never busy, and there are plenty of routes even at punter grades that are falling into neglect. This could be for a number of reasons, rotten fixed gear could be one of them.

'these drilled/glued things'

Has it been definitely stated whether the drill was only used to drill out the remains of the old peg or whether rock was drilled to create an enlarged placement for the new peg?

Ok, there are probably progressive slightly more rotting pegs as you go up the grades but I don't think this greatly changes my point.

Of course.

How on earth did you come to that ridiculous conclusion?

Last time I looked most pegs were rectangular in cross section, or indeed u shaped; whereas most drills seem to drill a circular hole.

I'd be very surprised if people managed to drill the peg without also drilling the rock.

We swapped it for Rap last month...

These pegs seem to be a great solution, as they are both strong and long lasting, even on sea cliffs.  

I rather thought it voided the entire stated justification for your point but I imagine you have other justifications for your point. My point being you didn't state them while justifying your point.

Ah! Heaven forbid God's own rock be damaged in the course of ever climbing anything.

Woe betide anyone who, in removing a sharp pointy rusting piece of metal, should dare to defile the poor, sensitive quartzite. The b*stards.

I'm trying to understand the perceived benefits of these pegs to those advocating them. Maybe someone can succinctly put the point forward, but so far we see to have,

The route would be harder

The route would be more dangerous

A peg may spin if not drilled and glued

The leader may kick out their wires

There was a peg there before

The topout is too loose or badly protected

Natural belays are not necessary to the character of a route

Having an ab is more convenient

Apart from the last two (which I happen to disagree with also), all of the preceding benefits are simple repeats of the "too hard or dangerous" line, which is absolutely in the eye of each individual climber, and are unavoidably integral to the activity of trad and adventure climbing. 

The obvious additional benefit, which doesn't seem to be being explicitly made, is that a route can be made 'better' by adding fixed gear. What 'better' would presumably mean is more consistency in difficulty, danger and quality. This is fine, and probably appropriately applied within a particular context such as on the slate. But Gogarth isn't that context. There's a huge diversity of routes 99% of which are climbed without any fixed gear at all, and don't need to be made any 'better'.

Do the people out there bolting it not like trad climbing, or just think Gogarth is crap without alteration?

I think this is the fundamental difference between sport climbing and trad Tom!

The peg has been replaced in the most sustainable fashion possible.

People will have the opportunity to climb the three star E4 that is Eroica without worrying about the state of fixed gear forever.

I'd have thought that the number of successful attempts on a bold E6 that is graded E5 in the guide would be lower than the number of successful attempts on a bold E6 that is graded E6.

Thanks for the great response Steve. I agree these things are difficult to discuss via an forum but with many of us spread all over (and further beyond?) the UK this is about as good as it gets; particularly in these times. I don't think repetition is a bad thing as each considered response reveals another nuance to the varying opinions.

I can definitely understand your point-of-view and can almost agree with it. There are a few thoughts I'd like to counter with, as follows:

You comment that these routes have been cleaned, and the peg replaced, to enable onsight ascents and that climbing ground-up offers a very different experience. Taken together, these comments imply that you are placing a higher value on a onsight repeat of a cleaned route compared with a ground-up ascent of an un-cleaned route. I can understand this. Certainly, as a community, it may be argued that we place a higher value on a first ascent (when done in good style) or first-free ascent compared with subsequent repeats. For repeats ascents, we place a higher value on an onsight, compared with ground-up or redpoint etc.  However this hierarchal valuation is somewhat arbitary and FA/FFA are rarely completed onsight.

I argue that a ground-up ascent of an uncleaned line offers an experience that is more closely aligned with that of the FA/FFA. What value should then be ascribed to this experience compared with that of onsighting a cleaned route? Should one experience be valued more than the other? I certainly don't have the answer.

You also commented that you'd like to see Gogarth return to being popular. This is a sentiment I can completely agree with, however I wonder how far the sentiment takes us, where is the line? Should the access path to Main Wall be fortified? Should we add a few more glue-in "pegs" to routes? We are fortunate in some respects that the ethic of "the FA sets the minimum standard" will likely prevent Gogarth from ever being fully bolted. Or at least I hope that's the case, though as rgold pointed out, fixed gear has a habit of spreading. I think kevin stephens hit the nail on the head - Gogarth isn't as popular these days because adventurous trad climbing is a bit out-of-vogue compared with hard, safe sport climbing.

The counter argument is that if few people are engaging with a place (wherever it may be) or style of climbing then their voices may not carry sufficient weight or be loud enough to resist those who push for change. Based on the popularity of this thread, I don't think that is too much of a concern for Gogarth.

One problem I have with glued pegs is that they can stymie any improvement in style, such as what we saw with Walk of Life.  If you can't remove the pegs the ascent style is set in stone (as it were)

Seems a shame not to have mentioned the massive amount of effort in cleaning and re equiping N Wales cliffs by the same folk, where there has been a general consensus. 

Gogarth is different, sure,  but for the sake of providing a balanced viewpoint of 'crag care'  that would seem to fit in pretty well in the big picture.

Also doesnt appear to be mention of 'upside down' Gogarth style.. the much celebrated peg fests leave a lot to be desired from a puritans perspective. Would they not have been better left with eco pegs?

If these conversations dont evolve just beyond beating the opponent then I doubt the productivity in terms of finding solutions. Hopefully the review/meet will be a bit more mellow.

Serious question: what does the term 'sustainable' mean in this context?

Nobody ever needs to worry about replacing it, it will never rust, decay or potentially fail.

So I can't remember if I posted this before, but part of the argument as to whether they are bolts are pegs reminds me of a famous tort of law. Where in summing up a case a judge said, "You cannot turn a horse into a cow, simply by calling it a cow". 

Surely by definition a peg historical has been held in place by a being driven into a crag, where it deforms slightly to fit the crack. One reason we don't have very good stainless pegs is that the pegs work best when they are softer metal like iron, so they deform.

I think Dave means: not replacing pegs.

Are these pitons a convenient drill bit diameter?

Have the pitons been notched to enable them to bond with resin glue?

Agreed that glue in pegs are harder to remove(!), but that doesn't defend the use of normal pegs on crags. To me they're a hangover from aid and mountaineering, and hanging around on a rope to knock pegs into rock climbs isn't on. I wonder if they'd have ever got popular if modern kit were available? Possibly, but there are more than enough options now

... and presumably a runner for all?

Wasn't the peg at chest height and now the last reliable gear is at foot height? So the crux move by far has gone from a top-rope to potentially falling on the (optional) belay. Seems like a bit of a change, no?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/new__bolt_in_eroica_pentire-433...

I agree.  Placing pegs, especially on new routes is a vanity which shouldn't have any place as part of a modern climbing style.

Eroica at E2 was essentially an aid climb.  Now it's free.  Shame for me as I'll never do it now, but still better this way.

As I recall, there was a surprisingly good wire at the top of the corner above the belay peg, which protected the hard move to the right, but I'm not sure how it would feel reaching it without having clipped the peg first. 

In the early days the peg on Barbarossa stuck out about 4ins, was tied off and gave not much confidence at all, so if it's like a bolt now then that's quite a different kettle of fish.. just saying..

Not anywhere near an aid climb. It had one move of aid if you chose to do it that way in the middle of some of the most wonderful climbing on the north coast in one of the most stunning locations.

For me the non replacement of the peg is a real shame it now leaves one hard poorly protected move in the middle of two of the most outstanding e1(ish) pitches on the coast and it is such a shame that so many fewer climbers are going to be able to enjoy those two outstanding pieces of climbing and is that not why we do this stupidly wonderful sport?

I know it wasn't an aid climb what I meant was that for me as a sometime E1/2 leader, I would need to aid that move.  I think aiding that move was implicit in the grade.

The only way I could contemplate the route now is to climb with someone who could lead that section.  It's a shame but I'm happy to live with that if it's part of a drift towards peg free sea cliffs.

Can't be arsed to read the whole thread but my two cents -

The peg on Citadel is completely unnecessary and is easily backed up

The belay at Castell Hellen should have the in situ gear removed but nothing added - there is plenty of good natural gear.

The Barbarossa peg is great and crucial to prevent a ground fall. I actually abbed it with the intention of head pointing it and was surprised to find the peg, and then climbed it ground up instead - arguably much more adventurous. Sure the peg facilitated my ascent, but it is such a fantastic route, and with the peg an obvious step up from the upper tier E5s, that it would be a shame for it to return to a rarely climbed E7.

Some of the other E6/7s in the Barbarossa area and on North Stack Wall, to my mind, would also benefit from replacement pegs. The anti peg people often talk about rock being a limited resource and thus we shouldn't facilitate ascents as it will get worn faster. But the reality is that as some routes fall into disuse people get funnelled into climbing other routes far more frequently than they might otherwise be climbed, and those particular classics suffer as a consequence. There are routes on upper tier that I have climbed many times due to other routes not seeming particularly appealing thanks to the state of their fixed gear.

And finally, Calum mentioned elitism. Personally I think its a little elitist of Calum, who is capable of onsighting bold E7s, to suggest that just because he was able to do Barbarossa without the peg and only found it a little necky, it shouldn't be reinstated to its original grade. Sorry Calum ;-P

My only experience of Barbarossa was around 20 years ago a bunch of us being at Gogarth, and someone possibly Pete (robins) tried to onsight it. I can’t remember who it was or even if they succeeded what I do remember is that when they got to the peg the experience wasn’t over, there was talk of  how good it was and the prospect of falling onto it.

Whilst I haven’t seen the new “peg” up close I’m gonna take a wild guess that it’s absolutely bomber? For me if it’s been glued in it’s no longer a peg (has this one been glued) your experience on the route was possibly similar to the first ascent except jim didn’t have the benefit of modern shoes and gear. I’d say virtually every other ascent over the last 30+ years hasn’t been like this. Are we happy to be regressing to this degree. 
 

Yes it opened the route up to a onsight proposition to you(and potentially for me) but that is just ego driven and selfish. We are talking about a whole ethos which to my mind is integeral to British climbing. Have you climbed everything at Gogarth? Just because things appeal more with a bolt in them doesn’t justify it being there. 
 

I realise it’s a handful of routes(currently) I’m pretty certain that in 5yrs it will be more, and on and on. Some places and some ideas/ethos’s are worth preserving and if that comes at the cost of a few once great routes then so be it. 
 

whilst I am advancing in years I hate that this makes me sound like some militant old crusty(I’m not honest) I really think that this is important. I would never take matters into my own hands and would always go with what the majority think I just really hope we get a true representation of everyone’s views because this could have huge implications for our amazing sea cliffs.

I had hoped not to get any more involved than my original comment, which was fairly tongue in cheek, but never mind. 

For clarity before I start, the only pegs out of the ones which have been placed that I condone are the Barbarossa peg and the ones on the Strand belay. The Strand ones purely for convenience, which I'm happy to admit isn't a very good argument, I just think it's better the way it is. Generally though I am only up for replacing fixed gear when it is the only reliable gear.

You keep talking about ego. I get your point, and fully accept that my desire to climb the route at the expense of the peg could be construed as ego (I'd even intended to climb it without knowledge of the peg using the arguably ego driven tactic of toproping). But to me, this attitude that we here in Britain are the adventurous ones and no no we don't use bolts on our trad routes, we are the 'real' climbers - this sounds like ego. Don't get me wrong I'm all for adventure - I've got a peg I broke off Helmet Boiler on my mantelpiece, and when I climbed Conan last year (which was completely free of pegs, incidentally, thanks to Steve Long) I was glad it hadn't been retroequipped (though I might feel different if I had led the second pitch). But Barbarossa just feels like a better route with the (yes, 100% bomber) peg. Like you say the hard isn't over at the peg and it remains somewhat runout, and even with the peg the route is rather unbalanced due to it being a boulder problem into a soft E4. Does that justify it? Probably not, but in the end its just one ethic versus another, and my ethic doesn't feel any more or less ego based than yours, no matter how righteous yours might feel. 

For what its worth, I don't care about this half as much as me replying might imply, so please don't read the above as an attack, I have no time for arguing online. If consensus is reached that no more bolts get placed I won't loose a moment of sleep about it. As you say there are plenty of other routes to climb and I'm unlikely to ever run out of routes at Gogarth even if I'm doing my best towards that end. However I think the idea that improvement in standards will make these routes at Gogarth popular is flawed - seems to me people were climbing hard at the G far more regularly in past decades, which may or may not have had something to do with the pegs.

Unfortunately, I don't think a consensus will ever be reached, and without discussing the merits of retroequipping routes on an individual basis, this probably means that it will continue to happen under the radar as has already been done. To me, the only ego free approach is one in which people are able to let go of their preconceptions and beliefs about what is 'right', have an adult discussion about the merits of different situations, and make compromises. By becoming entrenched in a particular belief system we just make it easier for the person who does place a bolt for a truly ego serving reason to justify their actions, because they, in the end, also believe that they are right.

For what its worth I'll add that if more pegs/bolts like the ones on the Cruise start appearing I would favour a blanket ban. That one seems by far the most unnecessary 

You are absolutely correct about the old peg on Barbarosa sticking out. I remember climbing above it and being horribly nervous of impending castration!

A replacement better placed peg was long overdue for this super route.

Of course, there was and still are a small group of super talented bold climbers who could climb the routes without the pegs, but for years these routes have had just enough insitu gear to assist the average keen climber to have a go without the need to drop a top rope down them first. 

I would much rather see, sensible, longer lasting, sympathetic replacement of classic fixed gear points in all our crags than the rapidly increasing trend of turning old trad climbs into fully bolted sports routes because 'nobody climbs them anymore'.

Ps. When I have climbed on the Main Cliff  in the last 12 months, on each occasion in perfect conditions we have had the crag to ourselves.

Sorry for dragging you in! Don’t worry I don’t see anything other than a punch as  being an attack. I get you’ve got better things to do so don’t feel the need to reply. 
 

just to be clear I don’t subscibe to the macho we don’t do that because we are better than that bullshit. If that’s how it’s coming across I feel the need to put that straight.  We are no better or more or less bold than anyone else. What we have in Britain is a huge diversity of things and ways to climb. And I love them all. What I’m trying to get across is this is one place that is a crucible of a certain part of our ethos and heritage and I feel it should be preserved that way. It’s not a pissing contest with anyone else. And I’m more than happy to clip bolts and pegs I just don’t think Gogarth is the place for that.

it’s good you got involved, the more people give their opinion the better. I couldn’t agree more about the ego free approach I’m far from entrenched in what I’m arguing for and will accept and clip the pegs if that’s what we choose is the way forward.

Cheers, good reply. To be fair its me who dragged myself in by commenting at all. The comments about entrenchment were sort of a general observation rather than being particularly directed towards you. Sometimes the pride about British ethics feels fairly misguided.

I can definitely understand wanting to protect the heritage of the British climbing ethos, but unfortunately pegs are a part of that heritage too, so its not totally clear what the best solution is if heritage is the argument. Like I say, I'm an advocate of adventure and there are plenty of places to climb with pegs and bolts, and if they do start to creep onto more routes at Gogarth where they aren't absolutely necessary to stop the climber hitting the ground then I'm all for a blanket ban. But to me it seems sad that a route as good as Barbarossa should be left almost virtually unclimbed, when replacing a piece of its own heritage with a sustainable solution has meant that it's likely received as many if not twice as many ascents in the year since the peg was replaced, than in the decade before. 

I had a chat with Calum earlier and he asked me if we can replace the fixed gear on Barbarossa, then why not Lord of the Flies, which is another bold route with a missing peg. I couldn't really think of a reason at the time but ultimately Lord gets climbed many times a year without the peg, would still ultimately be a very bold undertaking with a good peg, and probably wouldn't see many if any more ascents with the peg. So I do think Barbarossa is a fairly special case, and in cases like this I would like to imagine that it would be possible to reach a consensus. Maybe not though - there will always be purists.

Ultimately for me it comes down to this - no pegs glue in or otherwise on any new routes at Gogarth, no replacement pegs where they aren't the only thing between a climber and the ground, and anyone seeking to replace old pegs should seek approval from at least the local climbing community if not the wider one. If a system was in place for that to happen, then the hush hush attitude with which these pegs have been placed would be less likely to occur, or I would hope so anyway. But maybe it would just mean repeats of this conversation every other month.

I think this all looks worse than it might due to the peg on The Cruise.

That one peg, to me, seems a totally retrograde step. I've not climbed the other routes so can't comment from a personal perspective but if routes are getting climbed then I'd be strongly against replacing old pegs.

Yeah I can't really see the point of the Cruise peg at all, or the Citadel one

Hey Ben (and everyone else who would like this decided by the wider climbing community),

How do you propose a decision is made? Secret ballot? If so who gets to vote? People who have climbed the routes, people who climb at Gogarth, any climber who cares?

I generally don’t see a way this sort of things can be decided democratically.

Tom

P.s: The other dichotomy here is that the bolt pegs make these routes like Barbarossa reasonable ground up/onsight propositions, which is a major part of British trad climbing. Without the peg they either don’t get climbed, or will get occasionally headpointed, and even more rarely attempted ground up. 

Which style do we as a community put great value on? Ground up ascents (with cheeky bolt pegs placed  exactly where the original peg was, and only where modern protection hasn’t superseded it).

Or bold ascents after abseils inspection/pre practice? 

Well, call me old fashioned, but for me there is no comparison.  The on sight ascent is far more 'valuable'.  The damage the widespread adoption of top-roping rehearsal and headpointing has done to UK trad climbing is simply immense...

Neil

One could argue the peg bolt deprives you of the onsight as you are now reliant on preplaced gear that was placed on abseil.

I would also disagree that someone's onsight of a bolted line is any more valuable than a headpoint of a route with no fixed gear.

The bolt free line is still available for the next keen/suicidal youth to onsight whilst the sanitised bolted version has lowered the bar forever.

It just seems so shortsighted to declare that these routes are not onsightable without bolting. 

'Obviously any approach taken on Upper Tier will creep onto Main Cliff, Red Walls, Rhoscolyn, Yellow Walls...'

The North Devon coast, North Cornwall, South Devon......

onsight of as natural a route as possible. If the number of onsights or the amount of traffic something gets is more important, then we should wang a couple more bolts in Barbarossa then it won’t get lost to nature. Whilst I realise no one is saying this they are using the exact same argument to justify one bolt. Which is why I think a blanket ban is the best way forward.

I'm not really sure how it would work Tom it could be done various ways with pros and cons to each, but to my mind a blanket ban would just lead to further under the radar pegging/bolting as has been happening so it wouldn't be my first choice. Worth trying a different approach first

First step might be to find something that the vast majority can agree on.

Maybe "no fixed gear peg/glue-in/bolts/etc where alternative removable gear is near enough to stop a ground (or big-ledge) fall"

It sounds like at least one of the routes re-pegged goes against this but if a "low-level" consensus can be reached, then it makes it easier to discuss the remaining issues.

Will it just continue if there is a blanket ban agreed by a majority(bmc members or people who could be arsed/care enough to  vote or secret ballot (I don’t really have an answer)) that’s a shit reason , if someone doesn’t respect everyone’s views enough to hold off that says a lot.

If it’s allowed to continue there has to be some sort of process to keep it in check. 

Yes that's exactly what I think.

So far as I see it a blanket ban would ultimately mean very little change from the current situation, given that it would just be making official an unofficial rule, whereas creating some sort of process to discuss the merits of replacing pegs on individual routes would encourage those who are thinking of doing so to communicate with the wider community. 

As to how maybe there could be a section added to the Gogarth Wiki or similar where people can register to receive repegging proposals by email and cast their vote. Anyone can register but ultimately only those who care enough to do so will do.

Wow, this has been a fascinating debate over the past few days. I’ve really enjoyed hearing everyone’s thoughts and opinions, which as a byproduct has really made me, and helped me question my own beliefs, and scrutinise my own view of uk trad climbing ethics. Which is such a valuable thing to do, and not something I’d expected, so thank you to everyone’s who’s engaged.

These are some of my thoughts? Hopefully they’re clear, but my writing is poor, so I also hope things aren’t lost in the blah!

It’s clear we are all passionate about UK trad climbing, and it’s helpful for me to remember what makes it so special. Climbers travel from around the world to experience our “UK trad”, with Gogarth been one of the jewels in the crown.  The “special” also comes from the years of development, climbing ethic refinements, and a constant respect for improvements in ascent style. Aid routes freed, pitches led without rests, pulling the ropes not yo-yo, bolts chopped, leader placed protection, climbs flashed, onsighted, etc. These are all things that help define the style when climbers are then taking on the challenges the natural rock dictate. For me, for the ethics to stand true, it’s important to respect any ascents that achieved the best style so far. I like the fact that a climber could achieve something that no one else can, and that it might not be repeated, this is something we celebrate. As many have said though, climbing is a broad church, and I think it’s cool that one person may solo a climb all day and someone else might toppy the same route all day too, and that works as long as they’re not purposefully hindering any other climbers ability to climb the route in the best possible style (or better), so no chipping, improving gear placements, leaving gear in situ etc.

This is what I use when considering future trad actions at Gogarth (and potentially other areas). Respect the crag ethics, previous improvements in style ascent and don’t hinder the spirit and development of UK adventure trad.

Looking back at the history of some of the routes discussed and considering their progression in style of ascent. Citadel, originally climbed with points of aid, then freed optimising on the aid pegs, then climbed peg free, now with a peg (or is it a bolt, which would be less in line with uk ethics). 

Barbarossa, led with one point of aid (the peg questionable, as most are, and as it stuck out 3inches, unless it was an 5+ inch peg?), then freed with said questionable peg as protection on the runout crux, I’m guessing the first free ascent was in the 80’s, it’s then continued to be climbed on and off over the next 25 years, each time the climber eyeballing the peg and making a call whether to commit or not. Finally in its story of improved style of ascent, it was led clean without any fixed gear, showing proof of the development in uk trad climbers mental and physical abilities. Now a climber can climb the lower section of the route, clip a peg/bolt (I’m assuming Jim Moran didn’t miss a ringer of a peg placement?), then gun it up the crux without to much thought of its quality, other than “awesome bolt” (possibly fall off at the amazement of a bolt at Gog!). So for me the new protection, doesn’t respect previous climbing achievements that were more inline with the crags ethics, and were clear improvements in style. But worse, manufacturers a gear placement that was never there (have I got this wrong?). Not all nut placements are bomber rock 9’s up to the swage, some are RP’s, that’s trad? Same with pegs, some ringers, some sawn off or RURP’s or a bit wobbly or bendy, how come all these new “pegs” are all the same size but are perfect placements? I would genuinely like to know more; are they filed down or sawn off so that the sit flush every time, am I misunderstood?

One star routes at Gog will never be that popular, they will always require a keeno to come and clean them. Someone cleans the route, it gets climbed a bit, then gets green again, repeat, that works ok I think, that’s the nature of Upper Tier. There’s so many awesome 2 and 3 star routes to do it’s inevitable.

On the slightly separate topic of Castell Helen abseil, if this is the gateway crag to the rest of Gogarth, then this is the place to learn how to safely construct an abseil. In the past 30 times I’ve visited the crag I’ve used two other abseil approaches to the routes, all off more than adequate placed gear, the one down Atlantis/ North West Passage was in fact the way I abseiled into the cliff on my first ever visit, as described in the guidebook back then. I agree that the poor collection of pegs may tempt the inexperienced (as does the guidebook) but I would also add caution to the whole area of rock in which they are placed. Nothing is permanent at the top of Gogarth, so best to look at everything each time. In that sense, less is more, less fixed = more careful thought. 

I really hope this sparks the arrangement of a meeting to discuss fixed gear in UK, feels like it’s time. I don’t feel tonight’s BMC Local Area meeting we have the ability / time to do that justice.

well put - sympathetic gear replacement is the way to go and I agree with others on here that going on-sight a really important aspect of trad climbing and by and large I'd like that to work for people ...

Also, is it possible to arrange crag clear ups? Like the Trem Fest or Wilton. Could the BMC support? Fluff Fest. Don’t tell the British Lichen Society, their forum would go crazy!

or have a working group page and route list, so any keen climber can get involved and help share the load.

I agree with most of what you say, but not 100% with the above and similar comments in the thread

Most of the posters (I would include myself) are passionate about Gogarth and in particular the more serious crags which are arguably more adventurous then Castell Helen. The discussions re protection pegs have been well argued and not too far from a consensus

Castell Helen attracts a large subset of climbers happy with relatively clean and solid rock in the VS to E1 range who may have little or no interest in the more adventurous climbing on the more serious parts of Gogarth.  As far as I can see this subset of climbers have not contributed to (even read) this thread.

Should we be imposing our ethical position on these climbers unilaterally?

No of course, and this is not a closed forum.

Currently there are numerous safe ways for any climber to abseil into Castell Helen.
Even if not seen as a gateway or stepping stone to other more adventurous places, and just as the excellent sea cliff that it is. If the approaching climber cannot construct a safe anchor to descend from, then the rest of the following climbs are going to be pretty sketchy affair too.

Ben, whilst I agree with you on most points, I will repeat that the Cruise, which keeps getting quoted because somebody made up some fake news about it, has had all the in situ gear removed (3 jammed wires and two steel spikes). Unfortunately, the person doing this at the last minute decided to replace the bottom spike with a peg. When I say "Peg" I mean one of these so-called "non-peg bolt" things hammered straight into the crack just like a piton except matallurgically pure. My understanding is that there is no resin, maybe I have been ill-informed. I haven't been back recently to check it myself, however I have seen the route from close enough to confirm that it is now the only insitu runner on what had become quite a messy route. 

Yes I understand all that, good points that have also been made by others. But we still have a group of Gogarth enthusiasts operating (I presume ) in mid to upper E grades on the more adventurous Crags discussing a consensus on peg runners considering elitist imposition of changes on a different group of climbers. Who knows, they may prefer to keep the pegs, replacement with bolts or reverting to nuts? But it would be good to get a consensus of them. 

Do you mean that everyone has gone soft, or what? UK trad seems pretty healthy to me.

Good to clear that up Steve thanks. Whilst it being hammered in as a 'natural' peg placement is better than it being glued, it's still ultimately unnecessary so for my part I stand by my saying that it aught not to have been placed, and would vote against similar placements/replacements in the future. But by the sounds of it you possibly agree, and clearly the route is in a better state now than it was. When I did it a few years ago it was enough to be one of very few routes I have logged on UKC so as to be able to suggest that aspiring ascentionists take a knife to sort what was one of the worst ab stations I've seen anywhere at the top.

Agreed. Red rag to a bull springs to mind. As it proved to be. But the top station has also been tidied up a lot. 

Hi Dave am i right in thinking that you are suggesting that if a route has been led without the peg after the first ascent then there is no need for the pegs and they should be removed or at least not replaced?

As I mentioned earlier which you have probably not seen due to the length of this thread, we went through this discussion a number of years ago on the culm coast. The decision was that fixed gear should not be placed on new routes or replaced on existing routes.

However as mentioned above consensus is impossible to find and it tends to end up being done on an individual basis generally by keen locals as sounds like is happening at gogarth. The first ascent of Once upon a time in the south west was done after the agreement and was done with a load of pegs, nobody questioned that! And routes that need pegs otherwise jump by about three grades get the pegs replaced.

I'm sure thats what will eventually happen in Wales?

More to the point, none of the repeaters have questioned it despite The Walk of Life only really seeing much attention after Pearson did it after removing the pegs. They certainly present a curious contrast in fixed gear ethics. Perhaps they just make sense like that and Once Upon a Time really would be E12 without

This is exactly what I think will continue to happen. The unofficial rule is already that pegs don't get replaced and certainly no drilling/glue but people have been doing this on the sly because in reality, as this thread very well demonstrates, in some cases there is actually quite a lot of support for some of the peg replacement. But as this thread also demonstrates the instances in which these pegs/glue ins might be accepted are very limited, so unless there is some system in place for voting or arbitration these decisions will always be made by small groups of local climbers who feel that they have a little more say in the matter because they use the crags most. I am fully willing to accept that a different system may be a catastrophic failure, but just calling an official blanket ban in effect changes nothing from the current situation and so those groups of climbers, who feel that the current situation is tired, will continue to make under the radar decisions. Is this a justification for their actions? Not at all - the hush hush manner with which these pegs have been places bothers me greatly. But if the protagonists have the opportunity to seek consensus and fail to to even look for it then that makes their actions a lot more deplorable than taking quiet steps to do things that they might rightly feel have quite a lot of support from the local community. There aught to be a system in place for the community to actually have their say.

Edit - I appreciate that there is already opportunity for consensus to be sought, via UKC or the BMC, but a simpler register and vote system might be a much better method than a forum as a clear answer is unlikely to ever be reached in one of these conversations. I can understand not wanting to put each reequipping decision out on UKC due to the risk of it turning into a horrible shouting match (though I must admit that by UKC standards this discussion has on the whole been very well tempered).

There was definitely a cult of personality over the way Walk of Life and OUATITSW  were discussed in the aftermath.  Shorn of the hyperbole over the grade (which has no impact on the rock or the route itself):

Walk of life was a massive improvement in style over what went before, with the removal of the pegs.

...SW was a throwback to an older style in defiance of local ethics.

The only reason I can think that subsequent ascents ignore this ethical point is the kudos associated with repeating a Birkett E9

"the sly", "hush hush"

Please do not use such emotive and potentially libelous language when this is far from clear. 

Those involved may not have sought your "approval" but i see no real evidence that they acted deceitfully. Do you have any? I only see that, unlike most, they acted. By, amongst other things, tidying up routes they had previously climbed.

In reply to all:

I find it very amusing that people who want to stand up for "the adventure and risks of trad climbing" also want a committee process to decide about fixed gear.

[Edit: spelling]