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Bowfell Buttress

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 petegunn 25 May 2018

What a mess.

 

 

2
 Paul Clarke 25 May 2018
In reply to petegunn:

Presumably in reference to the damage done by 'ice' tools?

In reply to petegunn:

Ah, the first swallow of spring is here, a little late but it has arrived.

It must have moved its nesting site across the valley from the gimmer chain. 

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In reply to petegunn:

Is it though, the tell tale signs of heroic struggle.

7
OP petegunn 25 May 2018
In reply to Paul Clarke:

Its a great shame that such a magnificent lakeland Rock Classic is being damaged.

I would hope that even Sid would be ashamed to see the state it is in now.

Its hard to explain to beginners why ethically we don't use pegs, bolts and other aids in this country to help protect the rock, when others are prepared to gouge, scratch and break flakes on a classic route which is open for many climbers to do.

I winter climb and have no doubt added to scratches on the classic ridges and gullies but I will not climb snowed up, classic rock routes in the Lakes.

It seems Bowfell Buttress is the scapegoat route of mixed Lakeland winter climbing and I hope that it remains the only one, luckily Engineers Slab doesn't see that many ascents, yet!

 

1
In reply to petegunn:

> What a mess.

Totally agree. I am proud never to have contributed to desecrating that route in winter, there are more appropriate winter routes to climb.

DC

 Jim 1003 25 May 2018
In reply to petegunn:

What a load of pish....you need to get out more...

36
 Duncan Bourne 25 May 2018
In reply to petegunn:

> Its hard to explain to beginners why ethically we don't use pegs, bolts and other aids in this country to help protect the rock,

Yeah better get them via ferrata ladders up quick before it all falls down

 

 coldfell 25 May 2018
In reply to Jim 1003:

Is that meant to be ironic? I think Pete is one of the most prolific and talented climbers around, on rock and winter - he also appears to have a deep respect for the environment and climbing heritage. The line has to be drawn somewhere and I am sorry that any classic mountain route seems fair game, for what is in effect aid climbing ( and yes I have done mixed winter stuff.)

Dorine

In reply to petegunn:

Rubber ice tools? :P

It's a shame really. I guess by its very nature mixed climbing is damaging to routes over time, regardless of conditions, more so now than ever with winter climbing becoming so popular. 

I remember doing both Tower Ridge and Castle Ridge on Ben Nevis last summer, I found both routes to be absolutely covered in scratches, Curved Ridge in Glencoe is a state as well. 

It begs the question, is this an issue that can be tackled or is it just a byproduct of climbing in general? 

Post edited at 13:31
 C Witter 25 May 2018
In reply to petegunn:

It really is a difficult one. I've only enjoyed Bowfell as summer climb, but I can see the appeal of it as a snowed-up winter route - some seem to regard it as a classic, with more winter photos on UKC than summer photos.

However, there's horrendous scratching, a piton and a welded in hex as a result. Meanwhile, the summer climbers have shined up the route enough to change the colour of the rock - and I found one abandoned nut, when I climbed this recently (unfortunately my partner didn't get it out). Elsewhere, I did see a prolific number of stuck cams and nuts on the Diff classics of Dow.

My point... Climbing in general changes the rock; winter climbing in a particularly noticeable way. In the context of European climbing ethics and mixed climbing in the alps, this concern may seem parochial (Jim 1003's point?). But, this isn't elsewhere - this is the Lakes, where the finite nature of natural resources is more acutely felt.

I don't think an acrimonious attitude is helpful; but, I do think you're right to raise it as a point of debate. Maybe there shouldn't be any winter climbing on Bowfell Buttress (the VDiff route, rather than the whole buttress); but, I guess that would need consensus across the disciplines that this route is out of bounds. Because, after all, collective standards and their enforcement within climbing are (with a few exceptions, such as where there are access agreements or laws) only possible through consensus within the climbing community.

 Trangia 25 May 2018
In reply to C Witter:

 

> I don't think an acrimonious attitude is helpful; but, I do think you're right to raise it as a point of debate. Maybe there shouldn't be any winter climbing on Bowfell Buttress (the VDiff route, rather than the whole buttress); but, I guess that would need consensus across the disciplines that this route is out of bounds. Because, after all, collective standards and their enforcement within climbing are (with a few exceptions, such as where there are access agreements or laws) only possible through consensus within the climbing community.

If the "likes" and "dislikes" on this thread are anything to go on, the general consensus is that the Classic Rock V Diff Route on Bowfell Buttress should be out of bounds as a winter climb.

I agree with you that it's a difficult one, but most of the scratching damage on classic rock climbs was caused over 50 years ago ago when nails were the common foot wear. Since the introduction of rubber soles the damage to rock has generally been no worse apart from polish caused by scrabbling. This can be avoided by better placement footwork which is sadly lacking in a lot of people. Winter climbing of summer routes is now putting us back to where we were 50 odd years ago 

I don't know what the answer is, but the fact that so many more people climb now compared to 50 years ago isn't helping. This doesn't just relate to rock climbing, and winter climbing but also to mountain walking and with the added growth in mountain biking which is wearing away the mountainsides. Extensive path building and repair is helping, but when it comes to rock would "repairs" to damaged or polished rock ever be seen as acceptable?

It seems that we either put the brakes on where the cause of damage is obvious, as in the case of Bowfell Buttress winter climbing, or ignore the problem for the sake of a quick thrill now and bugger the consequences for future generations.

 

 krikoman 25 May 2018
In reply to coldfell:

> Is that meant to be ironic?

 

Jim a well know troll, on these pages.

 

 Mr. Lee 25 May 2018
In reply to petegunn:

I've never climbed on Bowfell Buttress in summer or winter but I have climbed Engineer's Slab in summer. I decided thereafter that I didn't want to climb it winter. It's arguably the best VS that I've climbed anywhere yet there were already signs of rock having loosened from winter ascents (ca 5 years ago). The Lakes rock is not as hard wearing as Scottish granite and similar. I don't want my enjoyment of winter climbing to overly effect the enjoyment of those that like to rock climb. I personally feel there's enough to climb in winter without straying onto the uber classic summer routes. It doesn't strike me as a sustainable way of climbing.

 Offwidth 25 May 2018
In reply to Trangia:

I think that is unlikely. There is a big difference between fresh crampon and axe scars and old nailed boot damage. In any case  I thought Bowfell Buttress had a long history of winter ascents. I don't think the popularity as a summer route has changed that much in decades... maybe busier in good days.

Post edited at 19:39
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 Trangia 25 May 2018
In reply to Offwidth:

I made an unscheduled "winter" ascent when I was caught one April about half way up it by an April snowstorm whilst wearing PAs! We decided it was best to go on rather than attempt to ab off, and by the time we topped out there was about an inch of snow on all the holds. Hairy to say the least

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 nuts and bolts 25 May 2018
In reply to Trangia:

I am struggling a little to understand this argument. 

Inevitably, as humans, we interact with our environment. In our case we climb rocks. This involves: 

1 cleaning a climb - chucking loose rock off, uprooting vegetation, scraping peat and soil out of cracks etc. and in the worse cases we drill into the rock and insert permanent metalwork.

2 climbing a climb - this polishes the rock, erodes cracks that take protection and in some cases fractures the rock when we fall on the gear. 

All this changes the nature of our environment. It is a bit of a spurious argument to say that winter climbing does worse damage and so is bad compared to rock climbing. 

If one really believes that what we do is unacceptable then one has to give up climbing and campaign to have it banned.

Personally I have come to terms with the impact that I have on the rock in the pursuit of the activity that I love and if we are all aware of that impact and how to keep it to a minimum I think that is probably the best we can do.

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 Ratfeeder 25 May 2018
In reply to nuts and bolts:

> I am struggling a little to understand this argument. 

> Inevitably, as humans, we interact with our environment. In our case we climb rocks. This involves: 

> 1 cleaning a climb - chucking loose rock off, uprooting vegetation, scraping peat and soil out of cracks etc. and in the worse cases we drill into the rock and insert permanent metalwork.

> 2 climbing a climb - this polishes the rock, erodes cracks that take protection and in some cases fractures the rock when we fall on the gear. 

> All this changes the nature of our environment. It is a bit of a spurious argument to say that winter climbing does worse damage and so is bad compared to rock climbing. 

> If one really believes that what we do is unacceptable then one has to give up climbing and campaign to have it banned.

> Personally I have come to terms with the impact that I have on the rock in the pursuit of the activity that I love and if we are all aware of that impact and how to keep it to a minimum I think that is probably the best we can do.

The argument is precisely that winter climbing on a summer classic like BB does not keep your impact on the rock to a minimum. Climbing it in summer has a minimal impact and doesn't spoil the climb for anyone else. Climbing it in winter has a significant impact and spoils the rock for summer climbers. There may be counter-arguments, but that is basically the argument for refraining from turning classic rock climbs into winter climbs.

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 nuts and bolts 25 May 2018
In reply to Ratfeeder:

But there a any number of routes that are classics in both summer and winter, an endless list but for example Tower Ridge, Fallout Corner, Engineers Slabs. 

Who is to decide if a route should not be climbed in winter for fear of spoiling a summer route?

Also does it really alter the enjoyment of a climb if it is covered in crampon scratches (Curved ridge on the Buchaille has looked like that as long as I can remember but doesn't detract from the summer scramble any more than the polish on Jasper in Avon Gorge)?

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 bensilvestre 25 May 2018
In reply to Ratfeeder:

I have been on countless rock routes, particularly on limestone, which have been ruined by summer ascents. Perhaps if people climbed bare footed that would keep the polish at bay? Rock shoes are sort of aid climbing anyway.

For the record, I think super classic rock climbs on more vulnerable rock types aught to be avoided in winter. I just think the 'summer ascents don't damage the rock' argument is a fallacy. Also the using ice tools is aid climbing one, since it was mentioned above.

Edit: a point which is often missed in this debate is that crampon scratches are exclusively a visual aesthetic, whereas polish actually affects the extent to which a climb is enjoyable. With that in mind polished routes are for me far more ruined than scratched ones. I can still enjoy the moves on a scratched up route. But a highly polished route is just downright unpleasant.

 

Post edited at 21:52
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 Ratfeeder 25 May 2018
In reply to nuts and bolts:

> But there a any number of routes that are classics in both summer and winter, an endless list but for example Tower Ridge, Fallout Corner, Engineers Slabs. 

> Who is to decide if a route should not be climbed in winter for fear of spoiling a summer route?

> Also does it really alter the enjoyment of a climb if it is covered in crampon scratches (Curved ridge on the Buchaille has looked like that as long as I can remember but doesn't detract from the summer scramble any more than the polish on Jasper in Avon Gorge)?


Well yes, these are some counter-arguments and they in turn can be examined.

On summer routes like BB or Engineer's Slabs, there's a possibility that crucial (or just useful) holds will be damaged or destroyed by too much hacking and prising with winter tools. This is less of an issue for long, scrambly routes like Tower Ridge or Curved Ridge and crampon scratches don't detract much. Polish on rock is an unfortunate result of popularity over time and can't really be avoided unless people never climb. But summer classics can at least be spared the damage caused by winter tools if winter climbers have the discretion and grace to avoid them; there's plenty of other places they can climb. So that's a false analogy.

As for who decides, I think it can only be a matter for individual conscience in relation to general consensus. I'm sure there are many sport climbing enthusiasts who would put the case for bolting up trad crags. Who is to decide which crags should be bolted or left alone? There's no authority to lay down the law in either case, yet there's an etiquette which emerges from the culture.

 

 

 Ratfeeder 25 May 2018
In reply to bensilvestre:

> I have been on countless rock routes, particularly on limestone, which have been ruined by summer ascents. Perhaps if people climbed bare footed that would keep the polish at bay? Rock shoes are sort of aid climbing anyway.

> For the record, I think super classic rock climbs on more vulnerable rock types aught to be avoided in winter. I just think the 'summer ascents don't damage the rock' argument is a fallacy. Also the using ice tools is aid climbing one, since it was mentioned above.

> Edit: a point which is often missed in this debate is that crampon scratches are exclusively a visual aesthetic, whereas polish actually affects the extent to which a climb is enjoyable. With that in mind polished routes are for me far more ruined than scratched ones. I can still enjoy the moves on a scratched up route. But a highly polished route is just downright unpleasant.


As mentioned in my reply to nuts and bolts, this is a false analogy. Any climb will become polished if enough people climb it over a long enough period; it can't sensibly be avoided. But the sort of damage caused to classic rock climbs by the use of winter tools (we're talking more than just crampon scratches) can easily be avoided if winter climbers choose alternative routes.

What would be left of BB if the number of ascents that have caused the polish was equalled by the number of ascents using winter tools?

 

 bensilvestre 26 May 2018
In reply to Ratfeeder:

The damage from tools is perhaps faster, but summer climbing still damages. People fall on gear, placements blow, holds break over time. Ropes frequently leave grooves on edges where they can't help but be pulled over. I can think of a couple of routes where gear placements have appeared due to climbers trying to fiddle gear into non- placements, and vice versa. You say that this sort of damage is unavoidable, but it isn't. Like nuts and bolts said it could be avoided by not climbing the routes, which is what you want the winter climbers to do. You just manage to justify it because you like climbing the routes in summer. Well winter climbers justify it because they like climbing the routes in winter. 

Go ahead and argue that it is a shame that the damage to bowfell buttress has been accelerated by winter climbing, were I to climb it in summer I would probably agree (I haven't climbed it at all). But when I see all this preserving it for future generations to enjoy rubbish, I just see hypocrisy. Maybe if you start free soloing everything in your birthday suit you can stand behind the argument you are making!

And to reiterate, I am not arguing that people should be able to make winter ascents of any Lakeland rock classics. I just don't buy that summer ascentionists of heavily worn classics are guilt free. Edit - assuming guilt is being applied to the winter climbers in question.

Post edited at 07:40
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 Angry Bird 26 May 2018
In reply to nuts and bolts:

> But there a any number of routes that are classics in both summer and winter, an endless list but for example Tower Ridge... .

An obvious difference between Tower Ridge and Bowfell Buttress that hasn't been mentioned is that the first ascent of the former was under winter conditions.

Perhaps another factor in whether or not a summer rock route is an acceptable winter climb depends on the scope for variation. If the summer and winter routes take substantially different lines, or if the crucial pitches of the route are open to much variation, maybe it's more acceptable?

 

Post edited at 08:49
 Mr. Lee 26 May 2018
In reply to bensilvestre:

> The damage from tools is perhaps faster, but summer climbing still damages. People fall on gear, placements blow, holds break over time.

I don't think anybody is seriously disputing that rock climbing doesn't lead to wear or even damage. A peg is obviously more destructive that a nut for example despite them both both contributing to wear. It doesn't justify using a peg where a nut could be used though. The same applies with winter climbing. It's obviously considerably more destructive because you're point loading to a much great extent (scratches aside) than with rock climbing.

> You just manage to justify it because you like climbing the routes in summer. Well winter climbers justify it because they like climbing the routes in winter.

Well I'd call myself a winter climber and alpinist foremost and very much like mixed. It doesn't call for a partisan attitude though. Justifications should still be based around what is good for the climbing community as a whole.

 bensilvestre 26 May 2018
In reply to Mr. Lee:

I am not sure my attitude can be called partisan. I have made it clear in both my posts that I am not arguing for winter climbing on classic rock routes. What I am arguing against is the idea that the damage done by winter climbing is avoidable, whereas the damage done by rock climbing isn't. It's just different levels of justification.

I rarely come in contact with evidence of winter climbing damage, however damage from rock climbing is abundant at any crag that has ever been popular. A visiting alien just wouldn't see the difference.

I think there IS an argument for not climbing classic rock routes in winter, just not the one that is generally alluded to. My feeling is that 3 star classic rock routes should be avoided in winter out of respect for those who don't winter climb. The damage IS ugly. There IS enough other stuff to do. I think you can make that argument without acting as though one level of damage is justifiable, but not the other.

 Mr. Lee 26 May 2018
In reply to bensilvestre:

Think we're totally agreed then! To me it's about minimising damage. 3 star rock routes don't seem the way to go as you say.

I think in the Lakes and and Wales there are a few other factors at play compared to Scotland as well. The rock is more vulnerable of course. My one attempt to climb Bowfell Buttress in winter many years ago didn't get further than the queue at the bottom. The route seems massively oversubscribed at its grade in the Lakes, based on my one visit at least. Maybe I just picked a bad day. The guy on second ahead of me couldn't get up the chimney on the 1st or 2nd pitch and looked well out of depth, which isn't great for the rock. I'd say in general I've seen more of this in Wales and Lakes than Scotland, maybe because conditions are more fickle and consequently there is more inexperience and a greater disparity in abilities. I think some people need to better choose their routes and maybe drop a grade a partner is weaker. The rock climbing mentality that the second will be able to get up the route one way or the other I don't think should apply to mixed routes. It definitely shouldn't be an epic struggle as one of the first posters stated. A clean ascent should be the expected income. 

 C Witter 26 May 2018
In reply to Mr. Lee:

> Well I'd call myself a winter climber and alpinist foremost and very much like mixed. It doesn't call for a partisan attitude though. Justifications should still be based around what is good for the climbing community as a whole.

Exactly. It's funny though - I was looking at the snaps of BB in Classic Rock, and some of the face holds visible in the photos at the "slippery crack" crux have now been completely smoothed out and look very different. I don't know whether winter or summer climbing is responsible for this, but imagine it's due to summer ascents. What I draw from this is, it's actually quite hard to see what would be best to do for the climbing community as a whole, re this route. On a broader canvas, though, we can see what "classic" status does to some routes; whilst elsewhere on UKC people are talking about routes not getting enough traffic and being subsumed by vegetation. Perhaps that means focusing attention elsewhere: how guidebooks, clubs, commercial guiding, etc. can help with this situation; as well as initiatives like the Lakeland Revival. For example, maybe it's time for an "alternative" guide to Lakeland climbing, that focuses on "neglected gems" (as in Roger Wilko's list)?

A case in point: the HS route adjacent to BB, 'Central Route', looked very mossy! I imagine Sinister Slabs (MVS) is similar. But, I bet both are worthwhile! And IIRC one of them is a HM Kelly route - i.e. of historical importance!

Post edited at 11:28
 bensilvestre 26 May 2018
In reply to Mr. Lee:

You latter point is a valid one. I think it should be emphasised that on routes like BB people aught to be climbing well within their limits. If climbing with a good degree of control then it is possible to make an ascent with barely any more damage than a summer ascent. 

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 Offwidth 26 May 2018
In reply to bensilvestre:

That and climbing it when not really in condition.

 Ratfeeder 26 May 2018
In reply to bensilvestre:

> The damage from tools is perhaps faster, but summer climbing still damages. People fall on gear, placements blow, holds break over time. Ropes frequently leave grooves on edges where they can't help but be pulled over. I can think of a couple of routes where gear placements have appeared due to climbers trying to fiddle gear into non- placements, and vice versa. You say that this sort of damage is unavoidable, but it isn't. Like nuts and bolts said it could be avoided by not climbing the routes, which is what you want the winter climbers to do. You just manage to justify it because you like climbing the routes in summer. Well winter climbers justify it because they like climbing the routes in winter. 

> Go ahead and argue that it is a shame that the damage to bowfell buttress has been accelerated by winter climbing, were I to climb it in summer I would probably agree (I haven't climbed it at all). But when I see all this preserving it for future generations to enjoy rubbish, I just see hypocrisy. Maybe if you start free soloing everything in your birthday suit you can stand behind the argument you are making!

> And to reiterate, I am not arguing that people should be able to make winter ascents of any Lakeland rock classics. I just don't buy that summer ascentionists of heavily worn classics are guilt free. Edit - assuming guilt is being applied to the winter climbers in question.


I haven't claimed that summer climbing does no damage. Rock climbs suffer wear and tear from the sheer number of people who climb them in summer. But that doesn't justify causing even greater/faster damage by using them for winter climbing. The crucial point of the argument can be made by asking two questions:

1. Who benefits if summer climbers stop climbing summer classics in order to 'preserve' them? Answer: no one.

2. Who benefits if winter climbers (most of whom are also summer climbers) refrain from climbing summer classics with winter tools? Answer: summer climbers.

Hence, the consequences of the respective damage caused in each case for the climbing community as a whole is significantly asymmetric, and that is sufficient to justify the argument against using summer classics as winter climbs. There is nothing hypocritical about it, since it doesn't rely on the claim that summer climbing causes no damage. But it is only an argument, and whether or not you choose to act on its conclusion is up to you. It sounds like you accept the conclusion in any case.  

 

 John Kelly 26 May 2018
In reply to petegunn:

Climbed it last April, hadn't done it for years (maybe 10) as a summer route, expected that it would have suffered heavily from winter activities (me included) pleasantly surprised in that it didn't seem to have changed significantly other than cheating peg start pitch 2 

 

Post edited at 19:52
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 Allovesclimbin 26 May 2018
In reply to petegunn:

Agree. I have not touched B.B. in winter as I have not managed to get it covered in snow ice conditions. Climbing it under some powder is no different to an ascent in June wearing winter kit. 

The easier routes are unlikely to have their difficulties, character or protection changed by these ascents. However vandalism of classic harder routes where torque moves and crampon points alter gear placements and the very nature of the holds is surely to be discouraged (Sniker Snack on Gable for example ) . While I can see it’s a fine achievement to climb it with axes and crampons , in powder and frost conditions surely it is no different from a summer ascent with winter pointy bits. 

I guess my point is the climber should attempt these climbs considering is this really in winter condition or just a rock climb made to look pretty by some snow, and what will be the impact of their attempt.

1
 John Kelly 26 May 2018
In reply to Allovesclimbin:

 'Climbing it under some powder is no different to an ascent in June wearing winter kit.'

Really!

 

Post edited at 21:01
 Jim 1003 26 May 2018
In reply to coldfell:

> Is that meant to be ironic? I think Pete is one of the most prolific and talented climbers around, on rock and winter - he also appears to have a deep respect for the environment and climbing heritage. The line has to be drawn somewhere and I am sorry that any classic mountain route seems fair game, for what is in effect aid climbing ( and yes I have done mixed winter stuff.)

> Dorine

More hysterical pish, I was climbing on the Cobbler today, classic rock route that is also a winter route, few scratches, who cares.....

5
 TobyA 26 May 2018
In reply to John Kelly:

>  'Climbing it under some powder is no different to an ascent in June wearing winter kit.'

> Really!


Yep, bet the turf isn't well frozen often in June!

In reply to petegunn:

And then there is this

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/classic_limestone_routes_neglect...

I really cannot take these arguments seriously. 

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