UKC

Is there such a thing as 'stealing' someone's trad FA project? 

I was surprised to hear a couple of the stars of a good new film in the Brit Rock film tour last night complaining about how one of their UK trad projects had been 'nicked'. I've always assumed that rivalry and the fear of others spotting your line is part of the fun of the FA game - but I admit I could be wrong. 

The idea of 'closed' sport climbing projects is more understandable, given the effort and expense of bolting - but I'd not really heard of this as being an accepted convention within UK trad. In fact, I can think of lots of examples of top climbers battling it out to claim first ascents, including 'last great problems'. I suppose I've always thought it was an interesting, cool part of the history of trad here. 

If you clean and chalk a new line, is it then 'yours' until you say otherwise? Has a more modern consensus formed on this that I've missed?

No but it's a bit uncouth init. 

Cat Burglar (E4 6a) - Iain Peters spent quite some time on an ab rope cleaning this, then Pete O'Sullivan nipped in and led it in Iain's absence. Hence the name...

It's rumoured that GG claimed First Ascents of trad routes to stop people sneaking in and getting them done before him.
Whether or not he actually went back and did them is obviously open to debate...  

Here's Ron Fawcett talking about route stealing:

youtube.com/watch?v=WCq6zyvYKUQ&

Yes, sure you can steal a trad FA, but it's totally legit!

Good story in BMC Froggat guide about John Allen nicking one of the nails slab routes off Drummond (Hairless Heart or Heartless Hair or something?).

And a lot of the lakes guys used to clean routes, but put the chunks off turf back on the holds in between attempts so they didn't attract attention.

You snooze, you lose. But the real question is... is it ok to poo under someone's recently stolen project?

Is that rather than peeing on it like a territorial feline?

It’s a tricky one as I tend to think it’s also uncouth to claim something as your own trad project that no one else can try. Probably more so, in fact. 

This sounds interesting, who was it talking and did they name the culprit? It sounds like at least it gave them some b roll for their movie...

And in a way, isn’t the pleasure of being first ascentionist a bit diminished if it becomes more about who finds (rather than climbs) new trad lines first?

It's all part of the game.  It happens around me (southern norway) and as an occasional thief my view was that it was too sad to see quality trad lines lying unclimbed, and crags thus left partially developed, due to the prospective FAs lack of talent/time/motivation!  Whether one wants to risk the subsequent disapproval for the sake of an ego boosting FA is another question.   There comes a point with routes that have required a lot of digging out and cleaning where it's pretty low.   

I’m more interested in challenging the idea of ‘nicking’ trad FAs really - rather than the people in this one example - but seeing as it’s a central theme to their film it seems fair to say that it was stated by Neil Gresham (belayer) and Anna Taylor in Alistair Lee’s new Just Anna film, which is good and worth watching if you can. 

The successful first ascentionist wasn’t named, even when an audience member asked. The route and FA is obvious (it’s been covered on here recently) but I guess it’s probs better to let them speak for themselves, if they can be bothered.

I don't see why it would be unacceptable to climb someone elses project (unless bolted). People could have projects going on for years, how does everyone know when they've given up?

No one owns the rock, it's all fair game.

In the Q and A session after the film they said they knew but declined to name the culprit. But, intriguingly, they said it could be found out on UKC!

I think the idea was that they had put a lot of effort into cleaning the route, just l;ike people put effort into bolting. Also, I think (but I may have misunderstood) that the culprit had used an in situ top rope left in place. But should people be leaving top ropes in place?

No, you can't steal a trad project, no-one owns it, so it can't be stolen.

I believe this article, https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2018/10/lakeland_summer_round-up-71729

best read in conjunction with this post https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,29643.msg571783.html#msg5717...

Yes, that's it!

For me, there's no black-and-white answer to this, no definite rules: circumstances alter cases. In that respect it reminds me of the crag swag issue. I think most people have some notion of what constitutes reasonable and considerate behaviour, and of course we're all free either to behave in that way, or not. There is a tendency for people who want to do the latter to attempt to justify it to themselves by appealing to a prevailing ethic, a fixed set of rules - I don't think much of that, personally.

"The impressive arete can be seen from the road" I wonder how many other would be first ascensionists are having a drama after waiting a little too long to get on this route!

I have bitter experience of this with regard to Watling Street at Millstone Edge.  Around about 1966 my mate and me did what we thought was the first ascent.  We graded it extreme and called it "Brush Off".  Ken sent the details off to Rock Sport and the Guide Book editors but Lenny Millsom responded saying he had done it some months/years earlier and in a rather dismissive tone said it was little more than VS.  As he was a part of the establishment and we were unknown his account was believed.  The route today gets E3 so form your own conclusions

Al

That's hilarious. How old are these people?

No-one owns the rock (unless they legally do, of course). Trad projects should be considered open, despite any amount of cleaning required.  Otherwise you'd all be waiting for me to get around to actually climbing 'Straightjacket E76c' (better known as Obsession Fatale).

Chipping someone's project so you can climb it is a different matter, of course (Production Line (E6 6c)).

Leaving ropes in situ sounds like a bit of a poor show. 

If LM had done it prior that's fair enough, nothing to gripe about, Al.

The grading is a separate issue.

One gripe I have is the establishment,  not giving the next generation fair recognition. 

The Keswick new routes book had dismissive comments raised against the FA of creeping Jesus at shepherds.  '" done years ago, sorry lads, etc".

Fortunately, the young upstarts soon started to climb the socks off the likely authors.

Of course you can steal a trad project! It's all in the details...

If you're just one of a few folk to have spotted a line over the years and someone pips you to the post, too bad that's just the way it goes. On the other hand, if you tell someone in good faith about a route you've seen which they previously weren't aware of, and they go in and nick it, then that's a pretty bad show.

I suspect Al's point was that the claim it was VS leads to a strong suspicion that it had not, in fact, been climbed, and the grade was merely plucked out of the air.

Hmm!  It wasn't published anywhere, we checked, so it was a retrospective claim submitted after ours which is a little suspicious. There's a post on UKC at the moment about a new route, it's actually a 2 move boulder problem but that's a separate issue.  The guy is taking steps to get it published as a new route and if it's not recorded elsewhere he deserves that credit.  I am however reasonably certain that it has been done before but that's irrelevant if that person did not publish or record it.

Al

Part of me agrees, although I’ve always assumed that the first rule of working a new trad route is you don’t talk about it until it’s done.

This is especially true in this age of easy information-spreading. For example, if you post about an unclimbed project on social media (as many people do, which is fair enough) you surely can’t really complain if an enthusiastic type then nips in and climbs it before you get round to it.

Hmmm, not sure about that. To my mind, whether something has been done or not is more important than who records it first. 

(that's a general comment, not specifically about the problem in question which I know very little about)

Definitely!

Again I think this depends on if the person was previously aware of the line or not. If not, then it's pretty poor form.

There is always the alternative strategy of telling folk about  possible new routes.

You then save the hassle of cleaning them and can have the availability of new ( to you) routes to on sight.

The process can be speeded up by pretending you are really keen to do the routes yourself.

It can be cut-throat at the top, I belayed a climber as he was 'stealing' a project of a fellow climber and friend. His argument was that the project was a long standing one and you simply can't declare it as your project. The guy who was had claimed it as a project hadn't been on it despite good conditions so the guy I belayed saw it as a lesson in getting off your backside and climbing your projects. The text messages exchanged between the two climbers was hilarious and pretty civil.

At the end of the day I believe that no one owns the rock, be it trad or sport. Although that said equipping a sports route takes a little more time and money. Either way I have seen some pretty extreme reactions to people 'stealing' routes, including threats of physical violence and even a climber refusing to give anymore slack to a leader so he fell off as the leader was two moves off sending the other persons sport project. I have also seen climbers deliberately drop the last move so they don't steal projects as a show of sportsmanship.

It is just climbing at the end of the day you will get all types and opinions.

I don't disagree with that as a matter of principle and I sit in smug satisfaction in the belief that me and my mate did it first.  Now about Midsummer Nights Dream

Al

On cloggy ??

I climbed that free in '76 but didn't mention it to anyone at the time

No I did it in 74 and therein lies the problem.

I did this in Scotland's far north. I had a climbing buddy who was a bit of a pain in the arse tbh. We scouted a route but ran out of time. I went back the next day and lead it with another climbing friend and named the route "Prince of thieves"

I did it out of badness really, just to wind him up.

Sorry I did it in 73 in wellies in a rainstorm at midnight after 2 pints in the Padarn. Nearly fell off 

Cheers for this thread - I thought the Britrock evening was BRILL, but was fascinated by what wasn't said regarding this route. I also couldn't find it on UKC, never thought to look at UKB cos she was onna rope innit.

But now I can.

Interesting debate on ethics, and good to see a little of both (or maybe multiple?) sides.

Ta!  

If Len said that he was being an idiot and if it was me in your shoes I'd probably think him a liar. Do you have another extreme first ascent arete there beginning with W?

As for the young lad, go easy on him... he was claiming a V4 (not a route) and the number of moves looked to be about 8 very difficult ones that look really good. I hadn't seen a claim before and Adam thinks its probably a FA.

Obviously everyone here has different views on the FA's of routes. But in the case of the Brit Rock film I was part of, a large part of the story was not included in the film for reasons I will try to explain here. I don't want to cause any huge fights on UKC, and for this reason until now i've held back writing down exactly what happened in the hopes it would all be forgotten about and everyone involved could move on. However there's been a lot of speculation, and in the hopes of clearing the air i've written down everything that went on regarding this route. 

I found the route, cleaned it up and began working it. During this process I did leave a rope hanging down the route. This was because accessing the top of the butress was incredibly difficult and took me an hour of crawling through thorn bushes to get the rope there in the first place, so I didn't particularly want to do that twice every time I went to the crag. This may still have been a mistake, and perhaps I should have just removed the rope every time, but given how tiny and unpopular this crag is I really didn't think it would be an issue. A couple of weeks after I started working the route I realised someone had been on it as it was suddenly covered in tick marks that weren't my own, and seemed to be starting the route a different way from the other side of the arete. I asked Will Birkett (who claimed the FA) if it was him as I knew he lived close by and he told me it wasn't. My climbing partner Neil asked a couple of people he knew and everyone denied it so we had no idea. All I wanted was to be able to have a sensible conversation with whoever it was as they'd been using (and trashing) my ropes but no one seemed to know. At that point I would have been totally up for working the route with whoever this mysterious person was and if they were much closer to the lead than me, would have happily stepped back and let them have it. The route is about 15 mins drive from my house so i'd often nip down in the evening to work the crux moves on a shunt. I never actually saw anyone there but every time i'd go something would have been left. One evening I jugged up the rope to find my main anchor trashed, another time someone had s**t right at the bottom of the route, and another time a bit of my static rope at been torn off the anchor, and left attached to the rocks at the bottom of the route with a little bmc "check your knot!" sign stuck to it. I had no idea why this person/people were doing this, but they clearly knew I was also working the line and didn't want to be friendly. One evening Neil and I both saw a silver van similar to the one Will drives slow down and deliberately scrape along the side of mine that was parked in a layby under the crag. Will has since said that it wasn't him and it was probably a farmer angry with me for parking there, however the local farmer had driven past me in his vehicle plenty of times and had had no issue with me parking there, and the farmers of the area tend to drive landrovers and jeeps, not silver panal vans. However since we couldn't see who was driving from the road we never took further action despite what we both suspect. 

One day we found a huge platform had been dug out of the ground on the slope beneath the route. This platform changed the route completely, into something that could be highballed rather than placing gear. Again I don't have an issue with people wanting to climb the route this way, I was certainly going to put pads under the route myself, but this platform was an absolute mess and such deliberate trashing of the ground under the route really isn't on, particularly in somewhere like the Lakes. There was also spilt chalk and cigarette ends left up there more than once. A few days later it airs on social media that Will Birkett had made the first ascent. Will had then emailed UKC asking for it to be published in an article but they turned him down, his girlfriend (using a fake surname) had then emailed them again asking more forcfully for it to be published but was again turned down. 

I did slightly worry when Brit Rock came out that people would think Neil and I were over-reacting about this, it would be totally understandable to see it like that. All that was shown in the film was that I was working a route and someone jumped in at the last moment and did it first. Had that been the case, I would still probably have been a bit annoyed but that would have been the end of it, it could have been argued that the better climber won. The reason I was really annoyed was the behaviour shown by Will and his mates during this period as there really wasn't any need for it. We didn't include any of the more unpleasant details in the film, nor did we ever name Will Birkett for both his sake and the sake of the audience. It would just have been uncomfortable for people to watch if so. The only reason i'm now naming Will is because his ascent has been aired on both UKC (in the Lakeland Round up) and his own social media, so he clearly doesn't mind. And the reason i've written this down is because I do feel like people deserve to know the full story seeing as we didn't tell it in the film and there's been a fair bit of speculation flying around. 

I hope this clears some of it up.

A project is fair game for anyone.Though  the tradition is that if someone is putting in the time,you let them keep trying it.When it is pretty obvious that they are not going back to it,steam in. With Tom Proctor,he thought he owned Stoney.He was a good friend,but I thought he had enough routes already,so I  took what I could get.That is not the same as someone with few new routes to their name.

     It is always going to be a personal choice.Andy Barker and I  used to arrive at a fairly undeveloped crag and share out  lines before we even tried them.If one of us was struggling,the other would nip in and complete the route,to stop other individuals or teams getting the route.Regan and I were competing with Bancroft and Allen for Strapadictomy.We used to see their chalk and they'd see ours.Great fun.We were trying going out right to the horizontal flake and then trying to get left to the crux.No cigar.When John Allen returned from New Zealand,Andy and I accelerated our plucking of lines,in fear that John would do them.Competition is good.

Whatever else went on, surely that's criminal damage and a matter for the police (or at the very least your insurers could investigate). The damage done to the van would surely be obvious?

Regarding the film - the trouble is that a lot of its audience will now know that there was a lot of skulduggery going on behind the scenes that won't be in the film, which potentially makes it much less interesting.

As annoying as nicking a project is, the dicking about with your ropes is far worse. Stealing a line is cheeky but trashing your ropes and anchor is potentially dangerous. Remember when Dave Mac was working echo wall and someone half-inched his cams. Could have killed him.

Yes.  I have to say that until I researched the guidebook I was completely unaware of how many of the trickier bits of local rock had been climbed 'years ago'.  Almost everything, in fact.   Still, trivial as they are, we had to call them something.     

I don't understand the references to Midsummer Night's Dream...?

Thought I'd address some of the points you've made as someone who knows Will and the situation surrounding the route.

Theres doubt in my mind that you were the first person to find this route. It had a peg in which was removed (Rightly so in my opinion. Pegs are good for the first ascentionist but quickly become unreliable) and Stuart Wood had been up to this buttress in 2006 and done a new E6 to the left called Fractious Applause. 

The walk to the top of the crag is unpleasant but takes no more than 10 minutes. Your rope was not trashed, you had left it over a sharp edge and worn it to the core. My friend then replaced that piece of rope for you and as a joke put the check your knot sign below. 

No idea why you think any of us would shit below the route. That's disgusting and just plain weird. 

I've known Will for quite a few years and he's a genuinely kind hearted person who naturally avoids confrontation. He wouldn't ever think of damaging another persons property. The only scratches on his van are on the passenger wing from when he scraped into our neighbours wall parking his van! 

Rivalries on routes is historically very common. Indian Face, Masters edge, Strawberries and many many more. Quite funny that Neil (In your film) seems to only be able to recall 10 examples where this has happened in the past??

On Friday I saw your film and have no doubt you are a talented climber and nice person. I thought the film did you a disservice by focussing on the route drama and not more on your climbing ability. It would've been great to see you climbing more classic routes in the Lakes. 

If you ever need a belay or spot then the offer is genuinely always there.

My reference to Midsummer Nights Dream, I was the one who brought that route up, was just my feeble attempt to illustrate that what really counts is who publishes the ascent.  Anyone can claim to have climbed any thing any time but by publishing you are sticking your head above the parapet and subjecting yourself to peer review. That's why I was troubled by Lenny Millsom's claim to have done Watling Street before me. We checked, there were no previous records but somehow straight after our claim was submitted his ascent, allegedly made sometime earlier, was published.  Other climbers who knew me at the time would have acknowledged my ability to climb Watling Street but would have raised eyebrows if I had claimed to have climbed MSD.

Al

As has become apparent on this thread the answer is a resounding 'Yes'.  (Although calling something a 'project' is relatively new).  And the race for the Matterhorn probably wasn't the first example of such rivalry.  High speed car chases, whispers of 'crag X', decoy missions, sneaking past cafes early in the morning - all part of the trad. scene. 

In fact its all probably got a lot less exciting!

Thanks Al, I should have replied to you, not Dave. Yes, sounds suspicious. I've had the same experience a few times but know that those particular pieces of rock hadn't been climbed before, but of course not been able to prove anything. Annoying.

at the end of the day if the route is worth climbing and you have put the effort into cleaning it then whet does it matter if somebody else nabs the first ascent? you still have a quality climb to work towards. if its not worth climbing then its not worth the effort of cleaning it.

Cheedale's Golden Mile being one of the best. Brilliantly concieved and executed by the master!

Hi Anna, watched your film recently , thought it was good.  No problem with been named in this. although I think some off the points your making may be incorrect.

I have also been to the top of the route ,it defiantly is a pain in the arse to get to, but the reason myself and others found out about this is because you could see the rope hanging down from the road.

as far cleaning goes, its never going to be pristine there due to its location. but I wouldn't have said it was clean when I looked at it, having spent a lot of time brushing it myself.       

after you sent me that message I kept off the route for a good 4 or 5  weeks. the reason I did clam the first accent was this.

Neil gresham (your climbing partner) started sending some (in my opinion) out of order messages to Lakeland climbers , people he dident even know and had never met, basicly threatening to stay off the route. there are some he sent to a Carlisle based friend that when I read , changed my mind about climbing it.

I think we can all agree lack of communication has been a large factor in this. Im sorry to hear that your rope has been trashed, I have a friend who said he replaced the rope there , and that it has been stolen. not sure who by ?

I dont know what to say to about the poo, just abit grim innit, not sure where it came from but I never had any experiences like that there.   

as for this platform that sprung up out of the ground as if by magic. when I was originaly going to climb it ( before you messaged me ) I built a small level, to place a few pads , this could have been removed, when I went back some bastards had destroyed the bottom. to be honest I assumed it was you guys, all the bracken had been cleared, I assumed for filming. and like you say a massive platform had been built and dug into the banking with shovels unfortunately. according to locals around the same time someone was up there attempting the route and been filmed ? 

Im confused as to what the story is with the van, because Iv been told by people who received messages about it, the story started out as been a sliver car , that drove past then reversed back into a van ?  Now it seems to be a sliver pannle van exactly like mine scraping down the side of your's ? anyhow my van dose not have any marks that would resemble either version. Id never do this , defiantly not because of a climb. your more than welcome to have a look. Id advise going to the police about this matter as it sounds like a sirius offence .         

I never asked ukc to advertise it in any way. I put a post up for friends on social media . my girlfriend did, under her own name. which for personal reasons is not the same second name as on FB.

Id also contest the jumping on at the last second comment, the rope was hanging down that route for over 2 months ..... and there seems to been a lot of keen climbers looking at it in that time. Im surprised you dident see them there. hope this clears some stuff up . if you ever want a climbing partner give us a buzz, I'm normally keen. cheers will.    

I think we should distinguish between routes and boulder problems although the same principles apply but IMO routes are more significant/important.  Before I get jumped on that is just my opinion.  I've watched for many years as boulder problems were "claimed" as first ascents but know for a fact that myself and many of my peers had climbed many of them many years ago.  There were dozens if not hundreds on grit it was just that back in those days we did not really record boulder problems as we considered them just to be training and a bit of light hearted fun.  My how things change

Al

Well if there wasn't enough material for a film before there definitely is now.

Can someone send a link to this film? Ta

This whole story is absolute comedy gold! One that’s likely to become a legend in the annals of The Lakes climbing history.

Keep on crimping

Oh dear, what a lot of drama. Pretty embarrassed that I got involved in this on the other thread.

I was pretty angry when I heard those ropes had been tampered with, because I jugged up them to film the route. Now I have no idea what is true and what isn’t, or who did what or why. Pretty entertaining little episode for the UKC masses though!

  The big read ........I just wish i had the time ! 

In my earliest years in climbing I was entranced by the competitive nature of an uncompetitive sport. I welcomed the stories emerging - such as the competition for Central Pillar on Esk, or the exploration of Gogarth. In fact, the climbing media has done its bit to fuel these dramas - calling some of the off-comer teams to North Wales 'northern raiders' or the 'Clean Hand Gang' etc.etc. Most of what I read/heard was more in the shape of mischeviousness, rather than out and out skulduggery.

Final point, why isn't leaving a rope draped over a 'project' the receipient of the same kind of derision as the ubiquitous top-rope over the gritstone classic, left throughout the day by a uni climbing club?

http://www.britrockfilmtour.com/

Just putting g this thread on hold for the moment while we look into some things.

Alan