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Changing disciplines

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 edhawk21 17 Jan 2018

I was just wondering from everyone's wealth of experience if you change the sort of climbing you do which is the best genre to go from to? would a boulder be a better trad climber then a alpine climber who starts bouldering? is there a an ideal timeline?

2
 GrahamD 17 Jan 2018
In reply to edhawk21:

Its more about aptitude and opportunity than a linear progression, I'd of thought.  Obviously different disciplines are closer to each other and share more of the arbitrary 'rules' (see 'Games Climbers Play') and skills - but that doesn't mean that one can only proceed through adjacent disciplines to get to another.

In reply to edhawk21:

Boulderers don't transition to Alpine climbers very well. Climbing the Walker Spur with no top on is pretty tricky.

Post edited at 15:04
2
 Michael Gordon 17 Jan 2018
In reply to edhawk21:

At the risk of stating the obvious, surely you'd pick the discipline you most want to do?

1
 Kirill 17 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

> Climbing the Walker Spur with no top on is pretty tricky.

Why not? It's in the shade so should be no risk of sunburn.

 

 Adrien 17 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

Third ascent of the Walker spur was made by Pierre Allain, Guy Poulet, René Ferlet and Jacques Poincenot; I heard they bouldered a little

In reply to Adrien:

Yeah, but his rock boots were cr@p. 

 alx 17 Jan 2018
In reply to edhawk21:

In-line with Michaels remarks, you are likely to prevail in a discipline you enjoy, do often and have some existing talent for.

 alx 17 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

> Boulderers don't transition to Alpine climbers very well. Climbing the Walker Spur with no top on is pretty tricky.

Speaking on behalf of boulderers, typically we are naturally inclined towards colder temperatures so doubt this would be an issue. Sore tips, lack of readily available fresh espresso, or dying from exposure whilst trying to climb the Spur in a series of 9ft sections with rest would be more problematic.

 Robert Durran 17 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

> Trying to climb the Spur in a series of 9ft sections with rest would be more problematic.

And you'd need a f*** off huge pad.

 

 alx 17 Jan 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

> And you'd need a f*** off huge pad.

Contrary to this belief, boulders would just work on levelling out or constructing suitable landing platforms for pads.

 kevin stephens 17 Jan 2018
In reply to Adrien:

> Third ascent of the Walker spur was made by Pierre Allain, Guy Poulet, René Ferlet and Jacques Poincenot; I heard they bouldered a little

Yes but did they do the sit down start?

pasbury 17 Jan 2018
In reply to kevin stephens:

Presumably that means walking up from Chamonix.

 JackM92 18 Jan 2018
In reply to edhawk21:

In my experience good boulderers that climb trad are often very very good trad climbers.

And Alpine climbing is brilliant but makes you so weak you find yourself climbing at the same level indoors as people who use the centre hire shoes.

 John Kettle 18 Jan 2018
In reply to edhawk21:

Physiologically it would make sense to begin your adult career with the most strenuous discipline and move to increasingly skill/endurance/tactics based disciplines as you age. So boulder, then sport, then trad, then mountaineering. A counter argument to this could be that peak testosterone levels (early 20s I think) are suited to the highest risk activites ie soloing, bold trad and mountaineering.

 mutt 18 Jan 2018
In reply to edhawk21:

one probably insignificant observation is that alpine climbers are happy with fcking enormous run outs. That probably lends itself to successful trad and ice climbing more than sport or bouldering.

 flaneur 18 Jan 2018
In reply to edhawk21:

Can anyone think of a world-class Alpinist who has not started as a handy rock climber? In no particular order and with a clear Anglo bias...

Albert Mummery (try the Mummery crack on the Grepon)

Walter Bonatti (hard rock routes in the Dolomites, former gymnnast)

Ricardo Cassin (hard rock routes in the Dolomites)

Chris Bonnington (E1/2 in the mid 1950s)

Mick Fowler (E6 in the late 70s)

Wojciech Kurtyka (8a+)

Reinhold Messner (7a in 1968)

Al Rouse (UK6c bouldering/ UK6b highballs in the early 70s)

Ueli Steck (8a on the N. Face of the Eiger)

 flaneur 18 Jan 2018
In reply to edhawk21:

And from contemporary Brits -

Matt Helliker (8c, not bad for a snow-plodder)

Nick Bullock (has fallen off E7)

 flaneur 18 Jan 2018
In reply to flaneur:

> Alfred Mummery

I could almost permit a facepalm emoji here

 bouldery bits 18 Jan 2018
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:

> Boulderers don't transition to Alpine climbers very well. Climbing the Walker Spur with no top on is pretty tricky.

Atleast we won't forget our beanies.

 Michael Gordon 18 Jan 2018
In reply to flaneur:

> Can anyone think of a world-class Alpinist who has not started as a handy rock climber?

Alex MacIntyre? Sandy Allan?

No offence to either, though I'm not sure either thought/think of themselves as being particularly good on rock. But feel free to put me right... 

 AJM 18 Jan 2018
In reply to mutt:

> one probably insignificant observation is that alpine climbers are happy with fcking enormous run outs. That probably lends itself to successful trad and ice climbing more than sport or bouldering.

Possibly its because I can't think of many people who initially started as pure alpinists, but I can't think of a single example. 

On the other hand, sport wads turning into handy trad climbers is one where I can think of tons. 

In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Alex MacIntyre? Sandy Allan?

> No offence to either, though I'm not sure either thought/think of themselves as being particularly good on rock. But feel free to put me right... 

My brother was with Alex Macintyre at Leeds Uni and (if my memory serves me correctly) said he wasn't very good on rock at all, indeed rather dangerously bad. I'll have to ask him (I mean my brother) when I next speak to him on the phone.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Andy Kirkpatrick is another, admitting he's quite average and that he's never been particularly into free trad climbing.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rocktalk/how_hard_does_andy_kirkpatrick_f...

 

 Michael Gordon 18 Jan 2018
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

yep, good shout

 flaneur 19 Jan 2018
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Alex Macintyre won’t look good in comparison with his Leeds contemporaries, especially John Syrett, the best technical rock climbers of the early 70s. His standard (E2?) was not bad compared to the ultimate of the time (E4/5). The equivalent to onsighting E6 today?

Sandy Allan could be a good call but I don’t know anything about his climbing other than the incredible Manzeno Ridge.

Andy Kirkpatrick is many things but a world class Alpinist he is not. When did he ever climb something like the Slovak direct on Denali, the Fitzoy traverse, or Annapurna south face?  

 GrahamD 19 Jan 2018
In reply to AJM:

> Possibly its because I can't think of many people who initially started as pure alpinists, but I can't think of a single example. 

 

Joe Tasker in his day ? and probably a few of his contempories

 

 Robert Durran 19 Jan 2018
In reply to AJM:

> I can't think of many people who initially started as pure alpinists, but I can't think of a single example. 

Maybe a bout a million Swiss?

 

 Doug 19 Jan 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

A fair few French as well (but maybe fewer now than in the past). And Mick Fowler did some easy alpine classics with his Dad before taking up rock climbing seriously

 Mr. Lee 19 Jan 2018
In reply to flaneur:

I've not read about Jerzy Kukuczka, Wanda Rutkiewicz, and a lot of the same generation of Polish climbers doing much on rock. Maybe it just got overshadowed by other achievements. 

Alex Macintyre was my obvious thought as well. I think John Porter's book mentioned he climbed around HVS from memory.

Did Mark Twight get much done? 

 IceKing 19 Jan 2018
In reply to GrahamD:

> Its more about aptitude and opportunity than a linear progression, I'd of thought...

Arrrrrggghhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

2
 AJM 19 Jan 2018
In reply to Robert Durran:

Pure alpinists who then became very good trad climbers? Does Switzerland have a million good trad climbers?

 AlanLittle 19 Jan 2018
In reply to AJM:

I dunno, but there is this website & book series about Swiss trad climbs, which was a sort of reaction to the whole Plaisir/Extrem bolted routes thing

http://keepwildclimbs.ch/nc/en/news/

(Language not quite as "EN" as they claim in the URL, unfortunately, but you might get the general idea)

 paul mitchell 20 Jan 2018
In reply to flaneur:

Andy K  gets stick.Totally undeserved.Massive balls and utterly self effacing and hilariously funny.

 Mr. Lee 20 Jan 2018
In reply to alx:

> or dying from exposure whilst trying to climb the Spur in a series of 9ft sections with rest would be more problematic.

Somebody needs to produce an alpine guide for boulderers where the route is broken down into a sequence of font grades rather than pitches.

 

andy kirkpatrick 20 Jan 2018
In reply to paul mitchell:

Thanks Paul!

It's a good question. I know quite a few really good rock climbers who thought they'd leave alpine climbing until late in life, but once they switched they just found it was far too tough, dangerous, no fun, and realised it was a young man's game. Look at Rab, one of the great alpine climbers of his generation, now sport climbing (Martin Boysen and Nick Colton too). At the same time I also think big long climbs often require a kind of stamina that only comes as you get older - look at Paul Ramsden and Nick Bullock. Nick is a total legend, as fit as you could find, amazing head, and tons of experience, many things Paul has not got to the same degree (I think Paul's an E3 climber, with good hill fitness, but in no way Mark Twight). And yet Paul has won the Golden Ice axe more than anyone else, probably because he's been doing a big trip every year since he was a teenager. When you read House or Twight you can be left with the impression that you have to be an Olympic athlete to climb hard in the mountains, but on the super high climbs, that's often not the case.

In my own defence - reading up* - it's funny how you can get pigeonholed as one thing, a 'big wall climber', when that's not how you see yourself (Stevie Haston is a great alpinist but people just think of him as an ice climber... and not a man to piss off). I watched Psychovertical with Nick Bullock and he was surprised of my background, that I'd not started life as a big wall climber, when I myself always think of myself as an alpine climber first, that big wall climbing was just training.  It sounds like a defence - maybe it is - but we're talking about who I am - but I was climbing Scottish VII and VIII when it was still considered quite hard, and soloing 5+ ice, and leading 6, soloed the NF of the Droites in 6h, the second alpine route was NE spur droites in winter, 3rd was Dru couloir in winter (climbed Dru 3 times in winter), multiple winter trips to Patagonia, Alaska, Norway etc. For me the switch to climbing big walls was that if I'd carried on at the rate I'd probably be dead (or have very dodgy hips), plus I could never dedicate enough time to stay on top of it, be married, job, kids etc (like Nick does, and like Paul Ramsden doesn't), and so big wall climbing suited me (it's skill based, like deep sea diving).  I guess these days I've become someone else's Bear Grylls, maybe like Kenton Cool too (I do shake me head sometimes, at the Landrover stuff and Mont Blanc watches, but it's just jealousy, and deep down I think, thinking back to us sleeping in a tiolet after winter climbing, I think 'fair play to you'). But slagging is a natural thing for Brits to do (the French do it too, but not so much the Yanks or Germans or Italians, who like their heroes to remain heroes). It's part of what keeps generations pushing, the younger climbers coming up, the older climbers hanging on, planning moves that will prove they've still got some worth (been sat all winter wanting to do that - but as ever, the mountains never lend a hand!). Anyway, that's off topic, but one day you're sat in a pub slagging off someone who was once your hero, but who you think is not as good as you, the next day you're just like them, and understand why.

The reality is now we live in a world where climbers can dedicate their whole life to climbing mountains big and small, something no one did ten years ago - the web opening up windows for people like Nick and others to push very hard indeed - but at a huge cost and self sacrifice still (something few people see). And that window gets wider every year, and so there's room for anyone with a positive mindset, who can put in the time, who don't waste their lives looking at others with bitter and envious eyes.

* I'm sure there are many climbs my heroes did that I'd struggle on - Macintrye etc - but they were just men like me or you, not supermen, they just tried what other thought beyond mortals (and paid the price). You learn this when you find yourself in the footsteps of your Gods - nothing quite as steep, cold or hard as you thought it would be. It's also good to stick in your mind - if you want to climb hard and futuristic climbs is that perhaps the routes you've done would have been beyond them too.

1
 TheFasting 21 Jan 2018
In reply to andy kirkpatrick:

What did you do when you did your winter trip (s?) to Norway btw

 J Whittaker 21 Jan 2018
In reply to flaneur:

Andy Kirkpatrick not a world class alpinist? (inset crying laughing emojis here).

You must have read his books? Not world class in what sense, he doesn't leg it up and down Everest? (impressive btw).

For me at least being pretty new to the game id be chuffed to emulate some of the climbs Andy has done. Reading his books make me want to push myself onto big alpine routes. (fanboying over, haha)

Looking forward to the Psychovertical talk in Manchester.

 Trangia 21 Jan 2018
In reply to andy kirkpatrick:

 

> It's a good question. I know quite a few really good rock climbers who thought they'd leave alpine climbing until late in life, but once they switched they just found it was far too tough, dangerous, no fun, and realised it was a young man's game.

Too right. Looking back over my climbing career of over 50 years I realise  that I've had more friends killed in Alpine climbing than any other discipline. Many many more objective dangers than any other discipline, much of which are outside of your control no matter how experienced and careful you are.

 TheFasting 21 Jan 2018
In reply to Climbthatpitch:

Ah of course.

 Phil_ncl 23 Jan 2018
In reply to andy kirkpatrick:

Nicely put. For me a heroic climbing career will be one that I can enjoy my whole life with friends and family. Maybe there’ll be nothing new or uber hard on the list, but is that everything really?

 HeMa 24 Jan 2018
In reply to flaneur:

> Ueli Steck (8a on the N. Face of the Eiger)

Well, more relevant would be near OS of El Cap... One fall I beleive... and on his honeymoon.

Or perhaps the numerous high 8s sport routes and boulders he's ticked in his early age.

 Lord_ash2000 24 Jan 2018
In reply to edhawk21:

Bouldering, Sport, Trad, Winter, Hill Walking.

That's my long-term climbing plan as far as disciplines go. As I get older and weaker I'll move along the scale in order to still be able to operate at a respectable level as my body deteriorates, the idea being that max strength will go quicker than fitness.

Although to be fair I might skip winter climbing out. 


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