UKC

Alright this had to be done.

With the recent dramatic increase in performance from climbers in all areas, one naturally starts questioning whether special substances are being utilised to one's benefit in performance - it has always been a topic in mountaineering, but I haven't heard much talk of it within performance climbing.

I'm keen to know how stringent anti-doping authorities are in competitive climbing, whether people think climbers are actually doping, what precedents there are, whether there is any incentive to, what drugs would be beneficial to what types of climbing.

In reply to mouseliveson:

The incentive is to climb better. I did once have my suspicions about one climber but on the whole most limit their drug intake to alcohol and cannabis.

Who cares anyway?

In reply to mouseliveson:

has been done?

same as other sports i'd imagine- cycling would be a good place to start (sprints+endurance)?

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

Well I can certainly attest that 2cb does not help at all. I couldn't even get out of the tree at the bottom of wilderbeast at Carreg Hylldrem. It was traumatic. 

In reply to mouseliveson:

Nitrous oxide would be brilliant, it would improve climbing as a spectator sport no end.

In reply to mouseliveson:

Used to be a combination of Caffeine, Nicotein and Alcohol

Now just Caffeine and Alcohol

 

In reply to Removed User:

Recreational drug intake is irrelevant. As I suggested, this is about performance enhancing drugs within climbing as a sport and those pushing for new achievements.

Everyone who cares about sporting achievements on a level playing field??

In reply to mouseliveson:

Apparently cannabis is considered performance enhancing, as Chris Sharma once found out. The anti-doping authorities clearly haven't watched anyone 'climbing high', because enhancing isn't the word I'd use to describe it's usual effect on performance.

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

a) I don't see climbing as a sport. It's something you just do.

b) The only person you're in competition with is yourself.

In reply to mouseliveson:

Coffee.  The only drug I need.

In reply to davidbeynon:

How can you say that when there is chocolate?

In reply to wercat:

I don't actually like chocolate that much.  This makes me popular with my partner as she knows that there is no competition for any she buys in.

Marzipan on the other hand.  Cold weather mountain food of the gods!

In reply to Removed User:

By way of grading and competition, climbing becomes a sport by definition. 

By way of grading, you are placing yourself relative to the ability of others.

In reply to mouseliveson:

For me Ibuprofen!  It eliminates the aches and pains of old age.

 

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

Looking at the old dodderers  at my wall I suspect their idea of a performance-enhancing drug would be a heady cocktail of  Viagra washed down with Sanatogen

In reply to mouseliveson:

Only if you choose to do so.

 

In reply to Grumpy Old Man:

Yes, the elixir of youth.

In reply to mouseliveson:

I disagree that grading inherently results in comparison with other people. I use it exclusively as a way of judging which climbs to attempt, and to compare my ability with my earlier self.

Additionally there is a big step from comparing your ability to others' to actively competing.

On the other hand climbing is clearly a sport in some circumstances (see: climbing in the Olympics). Whether those at the top of the trad climbing world see themselves as competing I could not say, clearly though there is an incentive to be the best if you want to attract sponsorship.

I think that doping in sport largely follows the money; it is prevalent in sports where the top athletes earn big sums, and have teams around them that can arrange doping programmes. Is this true of climbing? Not that I can see.

Perhaps a cheeky rest on the rope on a hard lead is amateur climbing's version of doping...

In reply to EddInaBox:

Also, the best climber would be the one having the most fun.

In reply to mouseliveson:

Coca cola, red bull.

Both help me be more alert when driving back from winter climbing.

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

Ironically, viagra is widely discussed in high altitude sports.

In reply to mouseliveson:

Oh. I thought they just cuddled up for warmth thro those long dark bivvies. Perhaps I've been a little naive.

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

Heat doesn't produce itself sir.

In reply to Roberttaylor:

I was hoping this would be a purely academic discussion, not a self incriminating exchange.

In reply to mouseliveson:

Coffee and cake

In reply to Removed User:

With respect, and all that: nobody cares what you think or do; or what I think or do. But with money and prizes ('Olympic glory' etc.) getting involved, the original question is an interesting and legitimate one.

Is *any* dope testing being done?

In reply to mouseliveson:

Runaway exothermic reactions say otherwise.

In reply to Oceanrower:

Or tea and cake.  

In reply to marsbar:

You must know me...

In reply to Oceanrower:

It's a fair cop, guv. I'll come quietly

In reply to mouseliveson:

https://www.ifsc-climbing.org/index.php/about-ifsc/anti-doping

Drugs of choice would be ones to aid recovery and adaption during training, plenty of choices in this field. 

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

 

Shouldn't it be on a vertical (or overhanging) playing field, in this context.

In reply to Removed User:

and ibuprofen

 

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

You get a sweet spot after a couple of tins where your bravery goes up but just before your coordination really craps out...

I have some more results from field tests of some, err, "banned substances" but I'm not so sure it's a good idea to post them in public...

 

In reply to dr_botnik:

I'm genuinely curious to know about someone you know who has allegedly taken substances and to what effect.

In reply to Arms Cliff:

Looks like a generic list of WADA banned substances - not sure how many have a significant effect to climbing performance though?

In reply to mouseliveson:

Here's a precedent for you:

In The White Spider, Harrer mentions taking some "heart drops" to keep them going through a low point. From what I've read these "heart drops" were probably methamphetamine. Then newly synthesized,  and now well known due to Breaking Bad.

In reply to mouseliveson:

Have a watch of 'Icarus' on Netflix. OK, it's not climbing, it's cycling but it's a very interesting insight.

Synopsis: the scale of the Russian Olympic doping was incredible. Doping might add 1-2% but at the top end that's the difference between medal glory and nada.

In reply to mouseliveson:

I've gone to the wall on ephedrine before when I've had a bad cold but still wanted to go. The ethical issue here is about  giving other wall users the cold, rather than anything to do with taking drugs to improve performance. But it worked like a f*cking miracle frankly, I climbed better than when healthy!

I guess that's why it's banned, eh? I don't think it's properly illegal, maybe class C? But performance enhancing for sure - it's both a bronchodilator and a fairly powerful stimulant (not on a level with speed but way stronger than caffeine). 

In reply to tehmarks:

Depends whether its indica or sativa. Sativa certainly is great for physical activity, or something like yoga where you medicate as part of a physical discipline - helps put you into an energised flow state. Indica on the other hand is great for melting into the sofa of the universe.

 

D

In reply to Dauphin:

I wouldn't claim to be an expert on such matters, but you might have that the wrong way round. Indica is synonymous with couchlock for m....my friends.

Edit: very sneaky, I see what you did there...

In reply to Steve Hayward:

I saw this v recently; if detection keeps pace with usage and everybody's doing it - why should we bother - it just creates a lot of embarrassment and well the playing field is level anyway. 

but OK - keeps the media busy

In reply to mouseliveson:

The most obvious ones are surely the weight management drugs. Given some of the stories about cutting before hard ascents it would be astonishing if they weren't reasonably common.

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

Bottled Oxygen?

In reply to mouseliveson:

A healthy dose of Adrenalin normally got me through a crux when at the sharp end.....

In reply to mouseliveson:

The most addictive climber's drug is, I think, exposure; particularly when you feel in control of your situation but have hundreds of feet of fresh air beneath your heels.

A rare high, but treasured.

T.

In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

fixed that for you

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

Climbing itself is a drug!!!

In reply to mouseliveson:

Clenbuterol - goodbye fat!

In reply to minimike:

Stand back. This thing could go off at any moment

In reply to mouseliveson:

My daughter was high on jalaibi when she climbed tonight, so we're half the team. Climbed well on it mind, or maybe it was the sticky fingers? 

In reply to Robert Durran:

Breakafast of champions... Ibu & Caffeine.

In reply to Robert Durran: And a bit of voltarol gel for the elbows works wonders for me. I do recall getting a bottle of a cough mixture in the pharmacy in Sella years ago. Some sort of codeine syrup. I can report my endurance was amazing, my cough stopped instantly and I was fearless(unusual). Unfortunately they didn’t sell it in the uk on my return and it was hard work going cold turkey. Best bit was standing in the pharmacy doing the act of coughing and seeking assistance from the pharmacist to an audience of old dodgers. After an Oscar winning performance the pharmacist answered in perfect English with a hint of Glasgow “it’s ok, I trained in Glasgow”.

 

That does not follow. Section 4.3 of the WADA code says banned substances should meet at least one of the following criteria.

1. Medical or other scientific evidence, pharmacological effect or experience that the substance or method … has the potential to enhance or enhances sport performance;
2. Medical or other scientific evidence, pharmacological effect or experience that the use of the substance or method represents an actual or potential health risk to the athlete; and
3. WADA’s determination that the use of the substance or method violates the spirit of sport.

It is clauses 2. and 3. that have allowed WADA to join the "war on (recreational) drugs".

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

After reading up a little on Meldonium, my rather unscientific presumption is that it may have some positive impact on reducing hot aches, as it reduces tissue ischemia.

Although primarily it's to aid blood flow to the brain and organs, surely it would have an effect on the capillaries in the hands too?

Made me wonder why its use isn't more widespread in ice/ winter climbing.

Or have I totally miss-understood?

In reply to mouseliveson:

White sugar Kendal Mint Cake as made by Romney's...as their stuff tastes 100% better than Quigin's due to having NO salt.

& for the real hard core Romney's do the dark chocolate covered white Kendal Mint Cake.....

I used to sell their stuff in my shop & once drove from the factory in Kendal up to where I am in North Scotland with the car full of KMC stock for the shop....the smell of peppermint..just breathing it in...I must have been as high as a kite....good job I wasn't stopped by the police....as its a common "cover" (peppermint) for alcohol on the breath...

In reply to mouseliveson:

Out of competition PEDs would /are probably going to be the favourites for Olympians. Are the climbers subject to out of comp testing in the same way as other athletes are? I would guess so.

In reply to LeeWood:

It would be very interesting to see what physical limits could be pushed with free reign on substance use. For example in Strongman competition culture, steroid use and related drugs are rife and the results are telling.

In cycling, there has generally been a hum of agreement that doping has been reduced in competition since the expose of Lance Armstrong and the crackdown of USADA on doping within professional cycling.

I find cycling an interesting sport to observe since the metrics of performance are very quantifiable, and incentives to perform are substantial (usually capital gain). 

Interestingly the power outputs (which is a primary measure of performance in cycling) and speeds achieved in the big competitions have not changed, rather they have steadily improved (albeit slower since the infamous doping ridden 80s/90s). Now - is this attributable to improved technology, nutrition, training practices or has there been further advances in doping technology that can not currently be detected? Probably a mixture of all of the above.

I raise this topic because I feel with the introduction of the Olympics, and the increased popularity of indoor climbing and competition we are at the frontier of growth in the sport, and everything that brings with it - including doping. So thank you for all those that gave interesting responses.

In reply to Neil Morrison:

I wonder if it is the codeine or something else in it which improves endurance. I have some codeine phosphate left over from my hernia op, so might experiment...... 

Ps Saw you on the telly the other evening!

 

In reply to Removed User:

I think you know that's not entirely true. There's plenty of top end climber's trying to climb the hardest or fastest or trying to be the first at something.

In reply to cheese@4p:

IFSC and UIAA both under WADA jurisdiction. So comp climbers are covered, including out of season testing.

But that doesnt cover the whole spectrum, and the use of PED's wasn't exactly hidden back in the golden age of exploration; achieving the summit would lead to increased book/ lecture ticket sales, so the financial incentive has always been there, and, as posted upthread by someone,  the use of drugs has always chased the money, even in climbing.

The alpine / trad / outdoor areas are still completely unregulated, so it is entirely possible that those chasing mountain endurance records / high grades might turn to PED's.

 

In reply to HardenClimber:

Well this is actually discussed in high altitude mountaineering isn't it. So much so that summits are categorised by 'with oxygen' 'without oxygen'. The first time I used it for high altitude ascents I was staggered by how much relief it gave me to continue. For cardiovascular exertion I understand it's use - it would be interesting to know whether it is actually effective for hard sport climbing though (ie would it aid in reducing pump).

In reply to Lemony:

Yes as someone has mentioned in this thread I have heard clenbuterol use is quite common even for preparation of hard outdoor ascents.

In reply to mouseliveson:

I'd say HGH is probably used a fair bit.

In reply to mouseliveson:

Perhaps a factor which will hold doping in check for climbers is our strong sense of ethics. We have 6 different styles of lead ascent in the UKC logbook system - perhaps there should be another one 'Under Dopage' (result would appear in purple with a bold 'X' ) to reinforce that there is index a difference ! But do these ethics carry into the higher ranks ? 

In reply to LeeWood:

I suspects a lot of the 'ethics' that some climbers pride themselves on will fade in the sport and competition side of climbing as it gains popularity in the mainstream over the next few decades - sadly this is the way of all sports with capital interest.

Would a first ascent of say a cutting edge sport route be deemed valid if PED’s had been used?

 

In reply to LeeWood:

I nearly coughed my tea all over my keyboard there

Climbers' capacity for self-delusion and  industrial scale amnaesia is legendary, from the gentle tug on a sling on the 'free' ascent, the wire it's OK to pull on because it is blocking the really good finger lock, the rest that 'doesn't really count because I only needed it because I went the wrong way so it still counts as  a flash' all the way thro to the gibbering epic on the crag that has become a cruise by the time you tell people about it in the pub.

On a recent trip someone was celebrating 'ticking' their all time top grade even though we had all seen him sneaking off sideways round the crux before getting back on line. He was absolutely adamant he had done the route. He even spent the next few days  slagging off the local grading for inconsistency because it seemed easier than lower grade routes he had done.

 

 

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

I'm sure there are  a few who take stuff not available in shops,unless you are in the middle east or Thailand.

ive seen an American climbing couple on line and I suspect steroids.

winstrol would be the best for climbers, ben Johnson of 80's 100 meters downfall drug. 

In reply to mouseliveson:

I recall being in Ceuse a few years back and being part of a conversation where a group of stoner American climbers (some of whom were operating at the highest levels of the sport) were discussing how a fat spliff shortly before a big redpoint helps them avoid getting pumped, through peripheral vasodilation.  I guess they were assuming that the peripheral and coronary vasodilation would result in better delivery of oxygen and nutrients to the forearm muscles and biceps.  It does ignore, however, the likely hypotension.  There isn't a great deal of quality research in the area, but it's possible that it may help some people...it could definitely help with redpoint nerves

I've never climbed at a level where I'd notice a difference and my only experience of climbing stoned was by moonlight on a multipitch in Thailand, where it certainly added to the experience, but almost certainly couldn't be considered "performance enhancing."

In reply to mark s:

I think I've seen that couple. Her moustache was a bit of a giveaway.

In reply to 1234None:

It'd have the opposite effect on me, plus I'd forget everything I'd learnt about the route. A valium would work for the nerves, but not sure it would have a beneficial effect overall!

In reply to Steve Hayward:

+1 for Icarus, great documentary 

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Agree. Tried, pantalones completos.

In reply to GrahamD:

even in the olympicz?

In reply to mouseliveson:

Is that because the third leg can assist an ascent? My drug of choice is climbing, I find my climbing improves when I take it.

In reply to 1234None:

Some of the scariest belaying I have seen was by my stoned friends on Tonsai. Definitely not performance enhancing. 

 

As far as competition testing works it's an IQ test not a drug test. You know the date of your drug test. A competitor could be doped to the eyeballs for a year and then cycle off so they pass a test but still retain almost all of the benefits. The only meaningful testing is year round out of competition tests. I would be very surprised if top end climbers arn't looking for an edge somewhere 

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

Could blood doping be used ? I know this might cause pump initially, but would that aid the muscles in becoming less pumped when blood levels returned to normal ? I have no idea on the ins and outs so this is more of a question than an answer.

In reply to Wsdconst:

You mean re-injecting some of the climber's blood that was extracted earlier? I wouldn't have thought that'd make that much difference over a relatively short competition event. Might be a good trick for alpinists going high on long expeditions though. Mind you, maybe the stored blood would actually be inferior to the stuff left inside them, once they'd adapted to altitude. Timing would probably be key. All things considered it probably wouldn't be worth the hassle

In reply to nufkin:

Yeah, basically adding an extra amount of blood to carry more oxygen around the body, I know it's a banned practise in sport but I wasn't sure if it could help or hinder in climbing.

In reply to Kemics:

Agreed, a sober belayer is probably better - but then I'm not sure we were discussing belaying performance...

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

For us punters, SSRIs could help with confidence with spicy trad or ice leads, steroids for strenght and EPO and related drugs could help with the walk up the north face (although not as much as having a Ben-key).  At international comp level though I'm not sure... I wouldn't have thought steroids would have been much use versus actually training and getting strong AND light. Not sure the're enough endurance in comp climbing to make EPO-like drugs give that much of an advantage and comps are relatively safe so climbers don't have to worry about taking a lob.  A  s someone said above, recovery-aids would probably be the most useful... Something that gets rid of pump maybe?

In reply to mouseliveson:

Adrafinil and Coffee

Breakfast of champions 

 

In reply to mmmhumous:

corticosteroids make you lighter and stronger...

 

In reply to Removed User:

11 dislikes to that tell me that whatever climbing is now bears no relation to what I, and most likely you, thought climbing was. I must be getting old.

OP: I was going to say who cares, but on reflection it’s probably Red Bull or something endorsed by bear grylls.

In reply to Removed UserStuart en Écosse:

I think you have be careful to separate this forum and who is commenting on this post from the population of climbers as a whole. Having spent many an evening climbing in Ratho quarry with a handful of others while ten times that number climbed inside, I do realise there's a whole subset of indoor climbers who have little motivation for climbing outside and their attitudes to "climbing" will be quite different to the outdoor climber. If you'd rather spend a Summer evening indoors climbing plastic than outdoors climbing real rock then your values must be quite different.

In reply to Market_Chaos_Monday:

I once had quite a productive day's trad climbing on modafinil. I was more efficient and task-focused than usual so yeah, performance enhancing.

 

In reply to Removed User:

I don't understand why you people are so desperate to separate the valiant outdoor climber from others. It's clear there is an emerging indoor climbing subset, who should not be denigrated because you refuse to expand your own narrow vision of what climbing is.  

In reply to mouseliveson:

In what way did I denigrate people who only use climbing walls?

I recall you mentioned earlier that you had used oxygen. Which mountain was that on?

In reply to mouseliveson:

The classic drug of choice would be amphetamines, at least for mountaineering. Hermann Buhl used Pervitin tablets for his Nanga Parbat solo, as detailed in his own book. Similar drugs were also used by the other expeditions of the time, which is no surprise as they were widely used in WW2.

CB

Seen friends puff away on their asthma inhalers just before a red point - to aid performance

In reply to Jon Stewart:

It is great stuff.  

Also Centrophenoxine is amazing stuff also.

I combine them both with Hordenine Hydrochloride and lots of coffee.

All in the name of science 

I am in no way advocating anyone else do this

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

I inadvertently climbed on coke once. Was partying in the morning and went to the wall in the afternoon, long after I thought the effects had worn off. Pretty surprised at the effect. I just didn't get as pumped as usual and could onsight about a grade harder. Definitely cheating.

Spanish climber, Edu Marin, was banned after testing positive for cocaine at a world cup lead comp. He said that was from partying the night before.

In reply to Removed User:

 

I wouldn't make any such assumption. There's a myriad of reasons someone could end up indoors that have nothing to do with values. Time constraints, lack of transport or a partner, ability or training goals could all affect where someone goes.

 

In reply to stp:

Nope, a visit to Ratho on a Summer's evening would show you that people are climbing indoor out of choice. You only need to walk out of a door from the arena to find yourself less than 100 feet from the bottom of a route. You occasionally get pairs of folk wandering out and looking curiously at what you're up to.

In reply to stp:

And who says climbers aren't "real athletes" on a level with olympic track and field stars etc? Doing coke the night before a world up comp...an inspiration for us all!

In reply to Removed User:

So what? I've sometimes climbed indoors at Ratho when I could have been in the quarry and I'm certainly not an "indoor climber"; just decided I'd rather train than do a few mediocre routes in a not particularly attractive quarry that I've done several times.

In reply to tehmarks:

Ronnie O'Sullivan too!

In reply to Robert Durran:

So you don't think there are people who rarely or never climb outdoors.

Fair enough.

In reply to Market_Chaos_Monday:

Faaaar out, man! My science is purely driven by coffee, but lots of it!

CB

In reply to Removed User:

I climb indoors far more than outside. The suggestion above that it must be due to people having different values is narrow minded because there are many other reasons that can influence such a choice.

In reply to Removed User:

Of course there are. My point was that some people who climb indoors and out sometimes choose to climb indoors when they could have gone outdoors.

 

In reply to nufkin:re. Blood doping - depends what you're doing.  It would be a very fast way to acclimate .  The stuff you see on here about acclimating in 2 weeks or so for met Blanc is guff - I used to go 2000m to train for running and it took 3 weeks to get anywhere normal.  This is instant, and was reputedly the 'trick' of choice for some we'll know biathletes.

to kemics, re out of season testing.  You need to be on a list of athletes to get random tested - just because you tick a big number and get your photo on the front page of UKC wont do it.  But once you're shortlisted for an Olympic slot and I guess you'd get the normal procedure

 

In reply to mouseliveson:

Probably look at what they take for sports that involve strength and low weight - boxing, weight lifting etc. I wonder if what ever Wiggins was on would be good for climbers? Apparently strips weight while maintaining strength.

Also wonder whether climbing is unique because so much depends on finger strength to weight - can drugs like HGH be targetted at forearms and fingers? Would it or other drugs help promote tendon/ligament growth as well as muscle? Even if additional weight would be gained at the time, it might be taken until tendons/ligaments get super strong and then stopped while weight cut but tendon/ligament gains kept?

Generally, I'm sure drugs can improve performance and people will do it. Particualrly as there's lots to be gained from out of competition climbing.

In reply to wbo:

Not quite, as the first phase of acclimatization can be achieved rapidly with increased hydrogen carbonate excretion by drinking a lot. This is usually sufficient for MB and other mountains in the Alps. Increased erythropoiesis, which could be copied by own blood transfusion, and would be essential for the greater ranges, indeed takes weeks.

 

CB

 

In reply to cb294:

I would be very surprised if epo, steroids all manner of PED.s aren't  being used by some in the climbing community

In reply to slinky wizard:

I know a bunch of professors from a university hospital I worked at who climbed Kilimanjaro with the help of the hematology ward pharmacy. They definitely took the full menu.

CB

In reply to richnoggan:

wiggins was not on a bodybuilding drug.

 

 

 

In reply to cb294:

I know Diamox / Acetazolamide is banned by WADA due to it being a masking agent. All hypothetical I know, given WADA have nothing to do with the non-sport of alpinism.

In reply to mark s:

He was on a powerful weight reducing drug.

In reply to mouseliveson:

this is my routine of choice for training days:

- get hyped because I'm about to get out of the office and cycle to the wall

- get to the wall, order a single shot macchiato (espresso with a bit of froth on top, I'm Italian what can I do.)

- eat a banana and roll a cig while the coffee is being made

- coffee and smoke

- crush.

For crag days, flask of instant coffee so it's less extreme on the stomach and a cig.

In reply to mark s:

I know. I don't think I suggested it was?

In reply to mouseliveson:

Adrenaline?

Chocolate works well for me too.

Seriously, what possible point would there be in taking a performance-enhancing drug? Who are we trying to gain an advantage over?

Martin

In reply to Martin Hore:

Our peers? Or ourselves. Or maybe even the temptation to get up that route you've been falling off for days as the holiday comes to an end.

But I totally agree with your point that really there is no point at all. Ultimately we're simply cheating ourselves. But people have a knack of justifying things to themselves in all different ways.

I've not heard of any climbers using performance enhancing drugs. But I guess they'd keep quiet about it if they were. Plenty of climbers dose up on coffee before going climbing though - caffeine is the acceptable performance enhancement drug.