UKC

So there are specialised notations describing the movements in dancing, in fact there are many different notations. Gymnastics also has their own specialised shorthand notation. Has there ever been a notation developed for climbing?

Not, as far as I know, one that has come into general use.

Mr Dawes devised some strange notations when planning out the sequence in the old PyB wall for his Stone Monkey film (I think some of his sketches are in his book). 

Then there's the old style topo sketches pre phototopos, but I don't think that was what you were asking about...

Not sure what you mean by "notations". Presumably you mean terms shorter and more "coded" than just specialised terms (e.g. sprag, Gaston, Egyptian, etc). Can you give a couple of examples of dance ones?

When I was active "Rolfing" seemed to be a popular descriptor but it seems to have lost currency now.

Dance notation looks like this, 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dance_notation#/media/File:Zorn_Cachucha.jpg

I thought such a tool would be useful, especially for dialling in long sequences, and it's always easier to build on the work of others rather than create things from scratch.

I see what you mean. Yes, probably very useful, if we could get everyone to agree on a language. 

An important difference between dance/gymnastics and climbing is that the objective of choreography is to ensure repeatable results, while the objective of climbing is often to work the sequence of moves out.

I can see it being useful in some cases but for most climbing it would be beside the point.

I'm sure the BMC could set up a committee and come up with an answer in about 50 years.

To do it properly you need at least half a dozen competing forms of notation that look similar but are subtly incompatible.

The object of notation is to communicate those motions/ideas to another person, including a future version of yourself. I thought it would be a useful tool in coaching, routesetting, and working projects, especially where there is video of multiple accents, for example analysing competitions.

My original question was to see if anyone has thought about this before and I want to use it personally so I can coach myself over the winter. If there is nothing out there already I'm free to invent meaningless squiggles and obfuscate to my hearts content.

Obligatory xkcd

https://xkcd.com/927/

I think people are missing the real point. With such a notation, guidebooks could include a complete guide to the route! Move by move! Just think of the ethical arguments! A new style of route to be claimed. Debates about whether Rockfax had gone too far by including them. Long threads devoted to the difference between this new notation and good old fashioned beta. People complaining the young folks have it too easy. It could keep good ole UKC in the black for months!

Not to mention the arguments about how given writeups discriminate against the tall/short or people with/without long arms/legs.

I think you are on to something.

I think the problem is that different people climb the same route in different ways depending on their height, flexibility and personal strengths and weaknesses, so notation that describes how one person does a route might not work for another person.  In choreography, on the other hand, the idea is that everyone does the same move exactly the same way (or as close as possible).  So I am not sure how useful this would be for climbing.

Notation describing exactly where all the holds are might be more useful...but for me that would take away the problem-solving part of climbing that I really enjoy.

A few stick men images combined with Rockfax symbols (flutter heart etc) stuck on a topo style drawing is all you'd need.

This assumes you want a lot of beta about a climb. 

Do tell.....

Not that I've heard, but there is data and a framework in this guy's PhD on the biomechanics of that might provide a basis for one:

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/5391/1/418786.pdf

Have a look at Chapter 3, from p. 47, and in particular the table on p. 50. That's from the pilot study - I haven't read the whole PhD so I don't know yet how he modified the main study but it's still interesting. 

I have to say this brought home to me just how complex what we do actually is! Just as well we don't have to think too hard about any of it. And coming up with an adequate and useful notation would be very hard.

Good points. Looking back to the dance notation then you could think of the musical score as a description of where all the holds are and each of the dance parts being a different persons beta as to how to move between those holds. 

It shouldn't detract from the problem solving part of climbing as no one is going use such a complex tool where the solution is already obvious but for crux sequences or long term projects it may be helpful for short sections. 

Fantastic, yet more ways to troll in UKC. Guidebooks with so much beta that they have become thick enough to be cubes. The Yorkshire gritstone guide would have to be fitted with wheels!

For your own personal use, where we can set aside the issue of everybody climbing a route differently, I suspect you'll still find that on routes at your limit the subtleties that determine success or failure will be too varied to sum up into a useful and consistent notation.

How many variables might a useful notation potentially need to show?

• Position and angle of each finger on each hold (maybe including a sequence for matching where necessary)
• Position and angle of feet on each foothold (maybe including a sequence for matching where necessary)
• Body position between and during each move
• Where to chalk up which hand
• Which holds to use and which to ignore
• Precise order and timing of foot and hand movements
• How hard to pull to latch a crucial dynamic move

I'm sure people who've actually done some real redpointing could keep on adding to that list almost indefinitely. I admire your drive but I think it's pie in the sky.

You might add that a good deal of climbing movement is improvised in response to all kinds of subtle (and less subtle!) feedback that we get as we climb. Like Johnny Dawes startled 'like a car unexpectedly in gear in a crowded parking lot'. To use a music metaphor nacnud is envisaging seems like an orchestral score whereas climbing is more like jazz or other musical forms with a strong element of improvisation.

The Moonboard app?

Surely I can't be the only person to remember the term:  on a lead, blindly groping for a hold out of sight above head height with an arm covering an arc of more than 45 degrees, in a similar way to what the great man would move his arm around grasping a brush saying "Kin ye till what it is yit?"

In the aftermath of Operation Yewtree, I'm not sure anybody would want to be associated with "Rolfing" any more!

Exactly. Hard to see how a notation is going to cover "ok, do I want my right hand (a) towards the left hand end of the long edge, in order to make the slap with the left from the little crap sidepull to the distant good sidepull a bit less stretched out, or should I (b) keep the right hand further to the right, where span is a bit longer but the edge is a bit more positive and angled slightly better so that I have less weight on my left hand at the start?"

... to quote a non-hypothetical situation from a route I vividly remember from last year. (B) turned out to be the right answer.

Englands Dreaming?

Wouldn't want to spoil anybody's onsight

Yes thats exactly the sort of information that would be good to capture. The dance notation above is a good starting point, the holds are the same in your two methods so that's equivalent to the music. The two different betas would two different dances to the same music. 

Running with the music/dance analogy for a bit I agree that climbing is more like improvised jazz, it is fluid and all about movement but is would be nice to be able to write down just the best bits now and again.

We're talking about a difference of about two centimetres being decisive though. Nobody can draw or read little stick figures with that degree of precision. And my exact beta might not be right for somebody else.

I have a friend who writes it all down in words and I've tried that on occasions too; works fine for us verbally oriented types.

So don't use little stick figures. It's the gross sequence of moves that I want to capture and that is clearly different between the two sequences. A hand move of a few cm can change your bodies ability to reposition it's centre of mass, in this case trading reach for the ability to generate dynamic movement. 

I guess just capturing the gross movement is relatively straightforwards, just look at all the problems on minus ten wall. What is complicating things is trying to capture the reason for those moves and not others.

Wouldn't it be easier to film it? New database: Rockflix?

... Anyone can upload/download, it pays its way through ads. Filter for height of climber, a forum for slagging unethical ascents. And of course like/dislike buttons to keep the discussions flowing (sorry, Offwidth!   )

Yep absolutely, this would only be a small part in the observe, record, recall, repeat cycle of learning. It would be just a way of ensuring that you had understood the movement and hadn't missed something subtle. 

Getting way off the original question of if some notation exists, it doesn't. Back to normal service y'all, thanks for playing .

What about something like chess notation giving for each move, what to move, to what type of hold, roughly where the hold is, whether the move is dynamic or static and roughly how much power is needed.

So e.g. a move could be: R:cA3:d

R -> right hand (small r being right foot)

to

c -> crimp  (small letter for a small hold, capital for a large hold so S for a big sloper)

at

A3 -> imagining a 4x4 grid centred on the climber and labelled like a chessboard with A..D for columns and 1..4 for rows the hold you are going for is at A3 so quite far left and slightly above the climber.

d -> dynamic  (or s for static. Capital letter if lots of power is needed)

I'd look at it as a compact, simple and fast way of jotting down your sequence quickly and being able to refer to when route reading before you have another go.   It doesn't need to be able to capture every single nuance: if necessary you could add more text or a little picture beside a particularly important move.