UKC

Climbs that should be in Classic Rock.

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 Kryank 30 Aug 2021

Hi All,
As a relatively novice trad climber (18 months ish). I got the fabulous Classic Rock book a few months ago and have really enjoyed reading it, and loved the climbs I have managed to tick off so far. 
We had a great day at Birchen Edge a couple of weeks ago ticking the climbs there (Powder Monkey Parade (S 4b)proved an entertaining warm up climb!). After completing the classic rock climbs we finished the day on Nelson's Nemesis (VS 4b). I really enjoyed the climbing on this and it was probably my favourite route of the day.

so this got me thinking about other great routes that people feel should be in Classic Rock, or other great climbs within those grades at the crags listed in Classic Rock. So where better than the UKC hive mind to answer this.

so let’s hear what you think!

3
 Tony Buckley 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Bow-Shaped Slab (HS 4b) is an obvious choice.

Zelda (HS 4b) perhaps a little more controversial.  I understand it was going to be in the proposed VS rock book, but that never got further than an idea.  If not Zelda, then Bottle Buttress (VD 4a); for all that the first pitch is loose and the second a brief stroll, the last two pitches make it worth the effort.

Right Angle (HS 4b) is an obvious inclusion too.

Grooved Arete (HVD) is another good 'un.

Quiver Rib (D) is delightful.

Hollybush Crack (VD) is classic Stanage.

More as I think of them.

T.

1
 Tony Buckley 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Tony Buckley:

And only two of those are at crags included in CR.  There's a list of other worthwhile climbs at the back of the book.

T.

Post edited at 18:16
 Tony Buckley 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Bosigran Ridge a.k.a Commando Ridge (VD) is such an obvious choice that I didn't include it in the first post because I thought it was in the book.

T.

1
 Tony Buckley 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

And as a special, two climbs one name offer, you can have Amazon Crack (HS 4b) and Amazon Crack (S 4a).  Both worthwhile, each very different to the other.  (Prime delivery sadly unavailable for these routes.)

T.

 profitofdoom 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Tony Buckley:

> Bow-Shaped Slab (HS 4b) is an obvious choice.......

For an awful minute there I thought there's been an unbelievable downgrading of Bow-shaped Slab (HVS 5a) on Cloggy

1
OP Kryank 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Tony Buckley:

Thankyou for those recommendations, I have been on Amazon Crack at Stanage. I seconded it after leading Via Media (VS 4c). It was a nice climb. 😃

 Tony Buckley 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Pinnacle Ridge (Summer) (D) should be on the list too.  While you're there, go round to the other end of the ridge and climb Cioch West (S 4a).

T.

Post edited at 19:04
 Tony Buckley 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Don't look down your nose at Nasal Buttress (HS 4b).  Climb Answer Crack (HVD) too while you're there.

T.

 Tony Buckley 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Red Wall (S 4a) is another good climb.

T.

 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

I would argue that those two routes and Birchen in general are the weakest inclusions in the whole book,

Chris

1
OP Kryank 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Tony Buckley:

Yeah have my eye on Nasal Buttress, was up that way a few weeks ago at rob rocks when it was hotter than the sun! Made for a sweaty, greasy evenings climbing.

In reply to Kryank:

Mur y Niwl (VS 4c) deserves to be on the list. So does Cyfrwy Arete (Summer) (D) via Table Direct (VD).

1
 Tony Buckley 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Amphitheatre Buttress (VD) is another; Outside Edge Route (VD) a second, though the recent rockfall in Craig Cwm Silyn means Outside Edge is best avoided for a while.

T.

In reply to pancakeandchips:

One of Kirkus's Climb Direct (S 4a) and Slack (S 4a) should be included as well.

 tehmarks 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Tony Buckley:

I thought that the Stanage Amazon Crack was incredibly good...but it's over all too soon! If we're going with an 'underrated Stanage' theme, I'd offer Broken Buttress (HVD 4a). Maybe just me, but I thought it was brilliant. Deserves to be far more popular. A reasonable length, and has some great moves and an interesting finale.

1
 wilkie14c 30 Aug 2021
 C Witter 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

An interesting topic! In the Lakes:

- Botterill's Slab
- Moss Ledge Direct and Jones Arete
- Engineer's Slab
- Mickledore Grooves
- Square Cut Chimney and Medusa Wall
- Golden Slipper
- North West Arete and F Route
- Haste Not
- Bilberry Buttress
- Eliminate A
- Eve
- Oxford and Cambridge Route and Dexter Wall
- Eagle Front
- Hedera Grooves
- Digitation and Thomas

I'd have probably cut the little boulder problems in the Peak out, to make space
 

1
 profitofdoom 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Tony Buckley:

> Don't look down your nose at Nasal Buttress (HS 4b)........

"nose" - "nasal" - Was that an intended or an unintended joke?!?!

7
In reply to pancakeandchips:

Mur y Niwl is too hard, surely? It'd be fine in Hard Rock.

From my point of view the answer to this question is Right Angle first, the rest nowhere.

jcm

 GrahamD 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Surely the whole point of Classic/Hard /Extreme Rock series was not the routes themselves but the accompanying essays by famous climbers.  Its certainly not a 'best of compilation and is why the route choices are often quirky.

1
 Greenbanks 30 Aug 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

It smells of a pun to me

 Phil Lyon 30 Aug 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

>   Its certainly not a 'best of compilation and is why the route choices are often quirky.

Yeah, I think you've got a point there. We're  working through the book and some of the routes we've done have not been amazing in themselves, but have brought us to new locations and styles of climbing. We've come to think of it as a travel guide with climbs.  Although how 3 gully climbs made it in there (Chasm, Clachaig and Great Gully) is beyond me.

I think KW once said people would argue for years about why such and such a route was or wasn't included but that if someone were to visit all the routes in the book, it would give them a comprehensive CV of British climbing.

I think Cyfrwy Arete or Cneifion Arete would fit the book well; although there are already 11 routes in 3 square miles around Ogwen already.

OP Kryank 30 Aug 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

I agree I love the stories of the climbs in the book, however I thought it may be good to get opinions from other more experienced people of routes worth doing that would be in keeping with the climbs in the book whilst visiting those crags.

OP Kryank 30 Aug 2021
In reply to C Witter:

Thanks for the recommendations 😃👍

 tehmarks 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Phil Lyon:

> Although how 3 gully climbs made it in there (Chasm, Clachaig and Great Gully) is beyond me.

Tradition, 'innit?

 Mike-W-99 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Since we did it today for the 1st time how about Sword of Gideon (VS 4c)

2
In reply to Tony Buckley:

I didn't think that Grooved Arete on Pikes Crag was worth three stars: a bit scruffy and on less than perfect rock (in contrast to nearby Scafell Crag).

2
 Michael Hood 30 Aug 2021
In reply to Tony Buckley:

> Don't look down your nose at Nasal Buttress (HS 4b).  Climb Answer Crack (HVD) too while you're there.

And also whilst there do the following underrated route - The Jester (S 4a)

In reply to C Witter:

Most of those don't qualify being VS. Classic Rock was routes below VS, grade creep is responsible for the excursions upwards.

You are right about the peaks though. 

 C Witter 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Most of those don't qualify being VS. Classic Rock was routes below VS, grade creep is responsible for the excursions upwards.

> You are right about the peaks though. 


I was aware of this. But, I think if we were to create a volume like Classic Rock today, Diff - HVS would be justified. A lot of routes that now get VS/HVS were climbed in the pre-WWII period, e.g. Jim Birkett's routes, whilst the story of a route like Moss Ledge Direct is pretty much synonymous with the history of the early development of rock climbing in the UK. And if you look at Hard Rock, it doesn't give VS/HVS as much space as the grades deserve. I could go on at more length

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think I should have dared to put more HVS routes in my list above

Post edited at 07:17
3
 Robert Durran 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> Most of those don't qualify being VS. Classic Rock was routes below VS, grade creep is responsible for the excursions upwards.

Wasn't there talk of a book "VS Rock" in the pipeline at one time to fill the gap between Classic and Hard Rock? Maybe mid '80s?

 pete3685 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Several of the routes mentioned in this thread are in Classic Rock....not the main essay routes, but on the list of Other Good Routes and Other Worthwhile Climbs that are on page 254 , most notably Bosigran Ridge and Amphitheatre Buttress.

Obviously, Right Angle is the only one missing, as Ken Wilson admitted that omitting it was his only mistake.

 Doug 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

I remember the same but early 80s, with some talk that what became 'classic rock' should be called 'soft rock' & the never published VS volume 'classic rock'.

1
 Colin Moody 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Wasn't there talk of a book "VS Rock" in the pipeline at one time to fill the gap between Classic and Hard Rock? Maybe mid '80s?

I think it was much later.

Ken Wilson phoned me a couple of times asking about Glen Gour, that would have been about 20 years ago. I'm thinking about writing a blog on Glen Gour so I'll try to find out what happened to it.

 Michael Gordon 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Mike-W-99:

> Since we did it today for the 1st time how about Sword of Gideon (VS 4c)

A lovely pitch on immaculate rock. Pity it's not really a 'proper' multipitch route, the first and last being very easy and avoidable - three pitches like the main one would be amazing!

 Rog Wilko 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Shining clough is rather neglected I think, but Via Principia (S 4a) was I believe intended  as an inclusion, but they never got adequate photos, possibly owing to northerly aspect. It is utterly brilliant!

OP Kryank 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Rog Wilko:

Went up to shining Clough in March 2020. It was very wet and green and still had snow on the ground. We scoped out Via Principia (S 4a) it does indeed look an amazing climb! It is on the radar to return to. 

Post edited at 10:00
 Moacs 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

A couple of thoughts:

Firstly, Wilson put in only routes he'd climbed - which is why Right Angle didn't get in despite being utterly stellar.

Secondly, the book works best with the big mountain crag routes - the Peak routes are fun, but climb Squareface and you'll see what I mean.

With that in mind, my offering would be Gambit https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/clogwyn_y_ddysgl-696/gambit_climb-...

although the top pitch at VD (in my guide) is taking the piss!  

Maybe Integrity on Lundy too (just for the whole day out experience).  Other than those and Right Angle, I think Wilson's list was pretty good.

Post edited at 10:47
 Rog Wilko 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

> Went up to shining Clough in March 2020. It was very wet and green and still had snow on the ground. We scoped out Via Principia (S 4a) it does indeed look an amazing climb! It is on the radar to return to. 

It’s a great crag for a heat wave as long as you set off at the crack of dawn.

 Martin Hore 31 Aug 2021
In reply to C Witter:

> An interesting topic! In the Lakes:

> - Botterill's Slab

> - Moss Ledge Direct and Jones Arete

> - Engineer's Slab

> - Mickledore Grooves

> - Square Cut Chimney and Medusa Wall

> - Golden Slipper

> - North West Arete and F Route

> - Haste Not

> - Bilberry Buttress

> - Eliminate A

> - Eve

> - Oxford and Cambridge Route and Dexter Wall

> - Eagle Front

> - Hedera Grooves

> - Digitation and Thomas

> I'd have probably cut the little boulder problems in the Peak out, to make space

>  

Unless I'm much mistaken several of those are HVS - so clearly in Hard Rock territory. Many of the rest are VS. So all good routes, but not in contention for Classic Rock which, at publication date, was IIRC restricted to HS and below, although a few have since been upgrade to VS.

Martin

OP Kryank 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Rog Wilko:

Yeah I love the who area of Bleaklow. There is a great pic in over the moors of Andy Cave up at shining Clough if I remember correctly. 

 alan moore 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Moot, but did anyone else do Gates of Eden when it’s was Hard Severe. The most outrageous route of the grade I’ve ever done, weaving through roof after roof on incut holds. Appeared in a Bill Birkett  book but not Classic Rock.

 GrahamD 31 Aug 2021
In reply to alan moore:

> Moot, but did anyone else do Gates of Eden when it’s was Hard Severe. The most outrageous route of the grade I’ve ever done, weaving through roof after roof on incut holds. Appeared in a Bill Birkett  book but not Classic Rock.

We did the HVS next to it as it looked more appealing !

 David Jones 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

I'd like to see Dives/Better Things in there - possibly in place of Spiral Stairs. Also The Gambit Climb, which would be a good companion route to Main Wall.

 Tom Valentine 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Rog Wilko:

It's a great crag. 

When I was a youngster (Atherton Brothers (S 4a) was the climb that drew me to the crag. Imagine my pleasure at ticking this off then finding that the route next to it was superior to it by a whole star but still at the same grade.

(Then of course, there is the superb eliminate line of Plastic Saddle (E1 5c) which gave me so much pleasure a couple of decades later......)

Joking aside, the crag also contains the best HVS on grit in Pisa Superdirect. Hard to imagine a better lead than East Rib at the grade but PSD does it.

Post edited at 19:18
 C Witter 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Martin Hore:

One HVS - the rest are VS or below. A few Classic Rock routes are VS - e.g. the Long Climb, Integrity, Grey Slab and Moss Ghyll Grooves. But, the more salient point is that Hard Rock isn't "clearly" VS territory. VS and HVS are pretty important grades, within the imaginary of British trad climbing, but are underrepresented in the Wilson series.

In my opinion, the concept of a "classic climb" should at least go up to VS, e.g. read the history of Moss Ledge Direct and Jones' Arete - the exploration, the failures, the distaster of a team of 4 dying after falling on the route, and Herford's controversial success on a route that had been deemed "unjustifiable" by the standards of the day.

VS/HVS are also more or less the achievement climbs of a significant proportion of recreational climbers in the UK; the point where the Victorian scale becomes the modern numerical extreme scale; and a standard that is comparable to many of the European classics, e.g. the IV - V+ climbs of the Dolomites or the Alps (e.g. by Comici).

So... if we were to reinvent Classic Rock, I would be thinking of routes from Diff  - HVS, rather than Diff - HS.

4
In reply to David Jones:

> I'd like to see Dives/Better Things in there - possibly in place of Spiral Stairs. Also The Gambit Climb, which would be a good companion route to Main Wall.

Dives/Better Things is a really good call. Just so good.

 rurp 31 Aug 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Agree with many of the posts.

Bosigran Ridge a.k.a Commando Ridge (VD) is one of the best routes in or not in the book.

Right Angle (HS 4b)is unique and is better than climbers club ordinary or piton route 

Christmas Curry / Micah Eliminate (HS 4b) is pretty good.

Oxford and Cambridge Direct Route (S 4a) is lovely but no better than those in the book’s lakes selection. 

Manchester Buttress (HS 4b)is much better than flying buttress at stanage as is Bishop's Route (S 4a) , the peak selection generally is a bit strange though black slab is awesome the Birchen selection is a bit random, for example Christmas Crack (HS 4a) didn’t make it ..?

OP Kryank 01 Sep 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Thanks to everyone for the input and suggestions. It has given me plenty of stuff to also have a crack at. 
 

cheers

Ryan

 GrahamD 01 Sep 2021
In reply to rurp:

> Manchester Buttress (HS 4b)is much better than flying buttress at stanage as is Bishop's Route (S 4a) , the peak selection generally is a bit strange though black slab is awesome the Birchen selection is a bit random, for example Christmas Crack (HS 4a) didn’t make it ..?

I'll repeat what I wrote higher up: Classic/Hard/Extreme rock are not intended to be just another 'best of' selection - and all the better for it IMO.

In reply to C Witter:

> So... if we were to reinvent Classic Rock, I would be thinking of routes from Diff  - HVS, rather than Diff - HS.

Just to add to this - most VS/HVS are significantly easier and safer now than they were in 1978 because the gear is better and the shoes are better. Me bumbling up a HVS with a huge rack of cams, a sit harness and sticky shoes is not the same as my mum climbing it in the 70s in boots with a waist belay and a few wires.

2
 Michael Gordon 01 Sep 2021
In reply to pancakeandchips:

You've got to draw the line somewhere though. VS to me is the last of the lower grades (so Classic Rock), while HVS-E2 is (modern) mid grade stuff which Hard Rock generally covers.

 C Witter 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

You've got to draw the line somewhere... but that doesn't mean we can't redraw where that line is! Bear in mind how early some HVS routes and harder were done (e.g. Kern Knotts Crack, HVS, in 1897; Central Buttress, E1, 1914; Eliminate B in 1922; Buttonhook Route, E1 5b, 1934). HVS is a grade that was achieved in nailed boots and today is within the grasp of most punters.

6
 Offwidth 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

I don't think those two Shining Clough severes deserve to be in classic rock as good as they are. Via Principa is as good as any severe on grit (good enough if selecting just one route, but none of the grit selections were done that way). The Birchen routes shouldn't be in it so are an unfair comparison. Some of the Shining Clough HVS climbs are indeed mega classic.

Post edited at 12:43
 fred99 22 Sep 2021
In reply to C Witter:

>.... HVS is a grade that was achieved in nailed boots and today is within the grasp of most punters.

The last time I was at Stanage - which I'm sure we can all agree has a good range of grades - the overwhelming majority of climbers were climbing at routes up to HS, occasionally VS. They certainly were not cruising HVS all day.

To declare HVS as a "punter" grade is completely wrong.

4
 tehmarks 22 Sep 2021
In reply to fred99:

But I see where he's coming from — the vast majority of punters could easily climb HVS, because 5a really is not that hard in the modern world. What is preventing them from doing so is either a lack of mental fortitude or a lack of interest in pushing themselves.

(I say as one of those people with a lack of mental fortitude)

1
 Dave Garnett 22 Sep 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

> But I see where he's coming from — the vast majority of punters could easily climb HVS, because 5a really is not that hard in the modern world. 

 

Possibly, although HVS is a pretty broad grade and I’m sure we can all think of examples that are in no way punter routes.

However, I think that’s missing the point.  Classic Rock was never about difficulty, it’s about the quality of the experience, especially if it’s in some way exceptional for a comparatively modest grade (if they aren’t then they’re probably not classics anyway).  It’s about enjoyment of a situation made comfortable by competence rather than training.

I just think HVS is a little bit too serious for that brief, and there’s always Hard Rock.

 tehmarks 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Possibly, although HVS is a pretty broad grade and I’m sure we can all think of examples that are in no way punter routes.

Yes — but you could say the same about any grade. There are plenty of routes out there at all grades that require a certain mental strength, and the same logic applies to the easier ones that are at the top grade of the punter of the day — perhaps more so given some of the horrendous historic sandbags that are about. It's an essential skill to be able to look at something and decide if it's for you or not.

> I just think HVS is a little bit too serious for that brief, and there’s always Hard Rock.

Seriousness isn't an exclusive feature of higher adjective grades — that's the same sort of logic that has people thinking that E grades are ubiquitously death on a stick. You can have unprotectable slabs at v diff and lace-able cracks at HVS (or above).

As it happens, I agree with you that they don't belong in Classic Rock; VS seems like a good grade to separate the two books at. But I also agree that HVS is pretty pedestrian and easily achievable by anyone who applies themselves.

1
 Michael Gordon 22 Sep 2021
In reply to C Witter:

> You've got to draw the line somewhere... but that doesn't mean we can't redraw where that line is! Bear in mind how early some HVS routes and harder were done (e.g. Kern Knotts Crack, HVS, in 1897; Central Buttress, E1, 1914; Eliminate B in 1922; Buttonhook Route, E1 5b, 1934). 

Well yes, and Shibboleth was done over 60 years ago - surely you're average punter should be walking up it 

 Pedro50 22 Sep 2021
In reply to C Witter:

Kern Knotts crack was Very Severe (mild) when I did it as a VS leader in 1973.

 Michael Gordon 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Well yes, and Shibboleth was done over 60 years ago - surely you're* average punter should be walking up it 

*your

1
 C Witter 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Shibboleth was 1958, IIRC. That's very much part of a "new age" of postwar climbing, during which a generation of working-class climbers were fundamentally transforming the meaning, methods and difficulty of climbing. I'd see that as very much part of climbing's "modern age". Robin Smith was the Scottish Joe Brown - and if he hadn't died young, perhaps he'd have been as prolific.

Of course, there are arguments for describing "classic routes" as sub-VS and stronger arguments for describing VS as a "classic grade" - e.g. from Botterill's Slab and Moss Ledge Direct as early classics to the Jim Birkett VSs that marked the pinnacle of climbing in nailed boots and, at the same time, the beginning of working-class modernism.

Interestingly, Smith's "big week" with Jimmy Marshall was also the apogee and last gasp of the "step cutting" period of winter mountaineering, before crampons and short axes came in, so arguably he overlaps the modern and classic periods.

By "punter" I don't mean anything too derogatory, by the by. I'd class myself as a punter

1
 Michael Gordon 22 Sep 2021
In reply to C Witter:

If the 50s (Brown, Whillians, Smith, Marshall etc) is Modern age, does that make the 70s/80s Post-Modern?

> By "punter" I don't mean anything too derogatory, by the by. I'd class myself as a punter

Absolutely. Quite a few very good climbers describe themselves as punters.

 C Witter 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> If the 50s (Brown, Whillians, Smith, Marshall etc) is Modern age, does that make the 70s/80s Post-Modern?

> Absolutely. Quite a few very good climbers describe themselves as punters.

I'm not sure... It's an interesting question. I kind of think perhaps that a lot of the social forces that underpin the 50s/60s movement were still at work in the 70s and 80s. Now, by contrast, we're definitely in a different moment. Climbing is still expanding in progressive ways but, in the process, transforming into something else: the diverse scene climbing plastic and fibreglass in urban centres. At the same time, "wilderness" is not only in retreat but increasingly mediated by the circulation of images and tropes on social media. It's a topic worth proper investigation, but I've a massive headache today so can't think too hard.

Post edited at 17:13
 Gary Gibson 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Kryank: slab and arete on the roaches skyline

OP Kryank 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Gary Gibson:

Nice one Gary thanks for the suggestion! 

 GrahamD 22 Sep 2021
In reply to C Witter:

> You've got to draw the line somewhere... but that doesn't mean we can't redraw where that line is! Bear in mind how early some HVS routes and harder were done (e.g. Kern Knotts Crack, HVS, in 1897; Central Buttress, E1, 1914; Eliminate B in 1922; Buttonhook Route, E1 5b, 1934). HVS is a grade that was achieved in nailed boots and today is within the grasp of most punters.

Eh ? Wait ! Kern Knotts Crack is VS, isn't it ? And CB was always HVS in its original state.

 C Witter 22 Sep 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

It depends if you consult the latest guides, or the mouldering guides on your bookshelf that you were using in the 1980s. I suppose the VS represents grade inflation with regard to O G Jones' original grading...! Although he compared it to Mummery's Crack, which is supposed to be about French 5+ if I understand correctly?

 

In reply to GrahamD:

But the famous chockstone on CB has long since gone, so - correct me if I'm wrong - most of the Flake Crack is now climbed by an E1 variation just to the left, isn't it?

 TobyA 22 Sep 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

> HVS is pretty pedestrian and easily achievable by anyone who applies themselves.

As someone who has given it everything they've got and still fallen off HVSs going for it onsight (yep, I'm looking at you Tower Crack (HVS 5b) you utter, utter b'stard!) I could take that personally!

I've been applying myself pretty keenly for going on 30 years now and my success rate on HVSs onsight is probably only 70% or so? And whilst you find VSs that can be a real battle, for me at least there is something about HVSs that just feel like a big step up.

I agree with the other chap somewhere above though, walk along Stanage Popular or Froggatt etc. on a nice day and most of the action is on VS and below routes.

 Michael Gordon 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Yes, but in its original state the route was HVS. And I also thought Kern Knotts Crack was VS 

 Michael Hood 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Similarly, Buttonhook Route used to quite happily be HVS 5a.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Yes, but in its original state the route was HVS. 

Yes, that's what I meant. When the chockstone was there it was HVS 5a (I thought it was 5b, actually).

 Robert Durran 22 Sep 2021
In reply to C Witter:

> Shibboleth was 1958, IIRC. That's very much part of a "new age" of postwar climbing, during which a generation of working-class climbers were fundamentally transforming the meaning, methods and difficulty of climbing. I'd see that as very much part of climbing's "modern age". Robin Smith was the Scottish Joe Brown - and if he hadn't died young, perhaps he'd have been as prolific.

I don't think Robin Smith was working class; he was privately educated in Edinburgh.

But yes, he was clearly a phenomenal climber with the potential, only partly fufilled, of Brown.

 C Witter 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Good points! But, I mean more that the generation marked the entry of the working class into the forefront of climbing, rather than Robin Smith in particular.

 C Witter 22 Sep 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> Similarly, Buttonhook Route used to quite happily be HVS 5a.


I think the crux is easily 5b. Unless I missed something dramatic, it was a sandbag at 5a.

 Michael Gordon 23 Sep 2021
In reply to C Witter:

Re 'Modern' etc, I guess it depends what factors you're considering. Class could be one, but then on a strictly participation basis I would say a big change came around the 30s rather than the 50s. I would tend to consider it more by standard and type of routes being put up which clearly changed in the 50s and then again in the 70s/80s.

 C Witter 23 Sep 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

I think you're right that the 1930s are important. I'd also say that the presence of the working class within the sport and an increase in standards are inseparable. Working-class climbers transformed what climbing meant and how it was done. This happened to coincide, in the late 1940s and 1950s, with access to carabiners and improved ropes, and soon these same climbers were designing more equipment: nuts, harnesses, tents, rucksacks, cams... And then training methods: dossing off, so you could live in a shack and do boulder circuits everyday or sleeping rough in France to be able to climb every day on European limestone; building fantastical apparatus in Sheffield cellars... Class is not "one factor"; rather, the social basis of rapid improvements in climbing was the empowerment of the working class through the first half of the C20 - more leisure time, higher wages, better social security, better schools (that did outdoor activities with the kids), a free health service, etc.

Post edited at 08:44
 tehmarks 23 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

> I've been applying myself pretty keenly for going on 30 years now and my success rate on HVSs onsight is probably only 70% or so?

But is that not how it should be? It'd be really boring if every route was a foregone conclusion. There'll always be personal nemesis routes or styles of climbing, whatever the grade.

> And whilst you find VSs that can be a real battle, for me at least there is something about HVSs that just feel like a big step up.

I do agree with that, certainly on grit, so much so that I've been consistently tempted to and probably will make the jump from VS straight to E1. There are plenty of safe and friendly grit E1s that I fancy my chances on, on a good day, but HVS on grit seems to have a certain 'atmosphere' to it that I find inexplicably off-putting.

VS seems like a good place to end Classic Rock, I do agree. But I do also think that 5a climbing is well within the grasp of anyone who is enthusiastic about rock. 'Pedestrian' might be a bit strong, granted. Most people wouldn't find it difficult to achieve French 5c on sport though, so why the massive hang-up on equivalently technical moves on trad routes?

 Dave Garnett 23 Sep 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

> Most people wouldn't find it difficult to achieve French 5c on sport though, so why the massive hang-up on equivalently technical moves on trad routes?

Because on 5c sport routes it doesn't matter if you fall off?

I agree that 5a is no big deal in itself and, indeed, isn't an uncommon technical grade on VSs.  That's different to HVS, as evidenced by the number of people who climb 5c on walls every week but are nowhere near leading HVS competently.  Obviously there are soft touch HVSs but which ones they are tends to depend on whether you are bold, strong or technically good.

Post edited at 08:53
 tehmarks 23 Sep 2021
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Because on 5c sport routes it doesn't matter if you fall off?

On an HVS crack it doesn't matter if you fall off. It's perfectly feasible to find HVS routes where you can fall off in relative safety, in the same way it's perfectly feasible to find 5c sport routes which will break your ankle if you come off in the wrong place.

I'm not saying you can pluck a 5c indoor leader off the wall and plonk them in the middle of an HVS and expect good results, more that I think that virtually anyone could climb HVS if they aspired to it and were prepared to lay the groundwork. Some will never want to; I climb with plenty of people who are really happy just cruising v diff and not pushing beyond their comfort zone — and that's fine — but I'd put money on them being able to do so if they had the desire and put a bit of time in.

 Dave Garnett 23 Sep 2021
In reply to Gary Gibson:

> slab and arete on the roaches skyline

Good suggestion Gary - I was struggling to come up with anything locally that qualified in the right grade range.  Which of the current ones would you remove to make room? 

Slab & Arete happens also to be the only Severe I've ever fallen off, and the only route of any grade I've fallen off soloing... 

 PaulJepson 23 Sep 2021
In reply to tehmarks:

I think HS is a perfect upper grade for Classic Rock (as it was originally - I know there are a few that are now VS). 

I've always thought that 'proper' climbing starts at VS/english 4c. You occasionally get a 'move' on HS or below but they are generally in isolation and safe. VS is where you really start stringing together climbing. 

The slightly under-fit, out of shape, green climbers can get on 4a/b, where I think if you're wanting to go out and lead something like Engineer's Slabs you need a certain amount of experience and a basic level of fitness and strength which you probably need to be climbing weekly for. 

HVS is a different animal all together. I've been climbing trad pretty consistently for 5 years now and it's a grade I'll only get on if I'm going well. To suggest something like Vulcan Wall is a punter climb is a bit of a stretch; you really need to have committed a good portion of your life to climbing to get on stuff like that (or be dedicated enough to be very strong and fit in a shorter time-frame). 

As it stands, total noobs can have aspirations of Classic Rock and that's a wonderful thing. They might have a bit of a shock when they get on certain big wet Scottish gullies, but that's another matter.

Classic Rock going up to HVS would be prohibitive to many, which would be a shame. It should be about going out for a big adventure, which anyone can aspire to. 

1
 Michael Gordon 23 Sep 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

> To suggest something like Vulcan Wall is a punter climb is a bit of a stretch; you really need to have committed a good portion of your life to climbing to get on stuff like that (or be dedicated enough to be very strong and fit in a shorter time-frame). 

Agreed; Vulcan Wall is quite tough and a totally different game to wandering up a classic severe.

> Classic Rock going up to HVS would be prohibitive to many, which would be a shame. It should be about going out for a big adventure, which anyone can aspire to. 

Again agreed

 GrahamD 23 Sep 2021
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

That's right, but the climb that made it into the books was with chockstone present.

 GrahamD 23 Sep 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Yes, but in its original state the route was HVS. And I also thought Kern Knotts Crack was VS 

By any sensible measure, Kern Knotts crack is VS.

 Mike-W-99 23 Sep 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Agreed; Vulcan Wall is quite tough and a totally different game to wandering up a classic severe.

Assuming you mean the one on Skye then its in the re-released Hard Rock now.

 C Witter 23 Sep 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

 

> HVS is a different animal all together. I've been climbing trad pretty consistently for 5 years now and it's a grade I'll only get on if I'm going well. To suggest something like Vulcan Wall is a punter climb is a bit of a stretch; you really need to have committed a good portion of your life to climbing to get on stuff like that (or be dedicated enough to be very strong and fit in a shorter time-frame). 

> As it stands, total noobs can have aspirations of Classic Rock and that's a wonderful thing. They might have a bit of a shock when they get on certain big wet Scottish gullies, but that's another matter.

> Classic Rock going up to HVS would be prohibitive to many, which would be a shame. It should be about going out for a big adventure, which anyone can aspire to. 


As with other comments, this is just personal opinion. I tried to root the idea of "a classic climb" in history. Others, such as yourself, are rooting it in your own subjective impression of grades. Vulcan Wall might be an impressive climb, but it is simply not true that to climb HVS "you really need to have committed a good portion of your life to climbing". Nor is true that HVS is not a grade that "anyone can aspire to". There are plenty of HVS climbs that are more accessible to your average person (nevermind your average climber) than the Cuillin Ridge, The Long Climb or the Clachaig Gully. Something like Chequers Buttress or Golden Slipper, springs to mind. Of course, some HVS climbs are tougher and/or more serious than others, and I'm not trying to treat the grade lightly or engage in mindless one-up-manship. There are plenty of HVSs I would hesitate to get on - though, I'd describe myself as mediocre climber, so perhaps that's not saying much.

Of course, Ken Wilson's Classic Rock is a masterpiece and I'm not seriously suggesting rewriting it. But, if were to try to create a new anthology around the idea of "the classic" today, I think it would be right to extend the grade range at least to VS. Note that Steve Ashton's 100 Classic Climbs in the Lakes includes routes up to E2; his 100 Classic Climbs in North Wales features climbs up to E3; and Bill Birkett's Classic Rock Climbs of Great Britain includes routes up to E2 plus an E5 and an E6. So, the idea of "classic rock" is not a fixed and immutable concept.

1
 monkey man 23 Sep 2021
In reply to Kryank:

 Slings Shot (5a) ?!?!

ok, obv not in the theme of the book but at the grade amazing route and rock features, would also include a large otherwise unrepresented area. 

1
 Darron 23 Sep 2021
In reply to monkey man:

> ok, obv not in the theme of the book but at the grade amazing route and rock features, would also include a large otherwise unrepresented area. 

Errr........No.

 Michael Hood 24 Sep 2021
In reply to C Witter:

> I think the crux is easily 5b. Unless I missed something dramatic, it was a sandbag at 5a.

Was a long time ago 😁 when I'd done little at the grade and got up several things that now have E grades. It's possible I didn't even know the technical grade beforehand.

Is the crux the move past the overhang in the initial groove? I remember that being rather reach dependent. Great route anyway and a shockingly bold lead from the 1930's.

 Ratfeeder 26 Sep 2021
In reply to C Witter:

> Of course, Ken Wilson's Classic Rock is a masterpiece and I'm not seriously suggesting rewriting it. But, if were to try to create a new anthology around the idea of "the classic" today, I think it would be right to extend the grade range at least to VS. Note that Steve Ashton's 100 Classic Climbs in the Lakes includes routes up to E2; his 100 Classic Climbs in North Wales features climbs up to E3; and Bill Birkett's Classic Rock Climbs of Great Britain includes routes up to E2 plus an E5 and an E6. So, the idea of "classic rock" is not a fixed and immutable concept.

Yes, I think this is the nub of the issue you've raised. Your point about the remarkably early provenance of some VS and HVS climbs (and to the list of venerable examples already mentioned let me add Great Central Route on Dow - 1919), which by itself surely justifies the epithet "classic", is a valid one. Equally, as you point out, much harder and more modern climbs (even E6's) could be (and evidently are) described as "classic" in a different sense of the word (pertaining more to quality and desirability than to history). You're quite right to say that "classic rock" is not a fixed and immutable concept.

But that is precisely the problem. The word "classic" in the context of climbing covers a very broad and vague domain. So really one has to return to the OP to get a handle on the sense of the word that is appropriate in this particular discussion (i.e. useful to the OP). And since the OP's starting point is Ken Wilson's Classic Rock, then the use of "classic" we're looking for, it seems to me, is provided by Ken Wilson himself. Helpfully, Wilson's use of "classic" is clearly defined, at least in the grade dimension, by Classic Rock in relation to his other, earlier volume, Hard Rock. The latest edition of Hard Rock explicitly states (on the front cover) that its subject matter is "great British rock climbs from VS to E4". In his note for the 1981 edition, Wilson acknowledges that what was considered "hard" in 1974 has, with the rapid development of standards and equipment since then, radically altered. But, in a spirit you yourself reflect when you say (of Classic Rock) "I'm not seriously suggesting rewriting it", Wilson states (with respect to Hard Rock) that "To change the contents at this stage would risk blurring the character of the original conception." Classic Rock was therefore intended to cover the grade spectrum of "great British rock climbs" up to (but not including) VS. Hence, to include Engineer's Slabs in a list of "classic rock" candidates, when it's already included in Hard Rock, would indeed, notionally, be to change the contents of both Classic Rock and Hard Rock.

The situation is of course complicated by the fact that some of the climbs included in Classic Rock (as mentioned in previous posts), such as The Long Climb on Ben Nevis and Black Slab at Stanage, have been upgraded to VS from HS (as they were graded when Classic Rock was first published). Wilson himself would undoubtedly have dismissed such upgrading as "grade-creep". One can sympathize with his notorious concern over this phenomenon when one considers, for example, the upgrading of Bowfell Buttress from VDiff to HS. Such a radical upgrading de-stabilizes the entire grading system. Perhaps Mild Severe would have been justified, but if BB is HS then where does that put the considerably harder and more serious Tophet Wall, for example?

However, that's beside the point. The point is that an expansion of "classic rock" routes with specific reference to Ken Wilson's Classic Rock, as proposed by the OP, surely ought to keep to the spirit of that book as it was intended. There are plenty of superb climbs within the relevant grade spectrum, as many posters have suggested, without needing to stray into Hard Rock territory. Nothing wrong, though, with proposing that Golden Slipper deserves a place in an expanded version of Hard Rock.

Post edited at 19:28
 fmck 26 Sep 2021
In reply to Ratfeeder:

That was a war n peace. 

My shot is Angel's pavement in Glen Rosa, Isle of Arran 

It only got 2 stars but I think it has everything Arran has to offer. Cracks, flakes, overlap slab overhangs, a chain link of pockets and a finally blank slab pad to sanctuary.

 C Witter 27 Sep 2021
In reply to Ratfeeder:

That was a very convoluted way of saying "read the OP"

Ken Wilson is sadly no longer with us, and bit by bit these great books are being rewritten. Perhaps it would best to leave them as they are and create something new - and with Wilson's clarity of vision.

An idea that appeals to me is an anthology starting from the late C19 and coming forward to the present day that aims to collect the most "significant" climb of each year. E.g. 1911 would be the full, continuous traverse of the Black Cuillin; 1914 would be Central Buttress; 1945 would be Suicide Wall; 1952 probably Cenotaph Corner, and so on. The progression would not be by grade alone and would scout out some of the more interesting myths and legends of climbing as well as ascents that involved new approaches or that were important for othe reasons, e.g. early women's FAs. I quite like the idea, though, of measuring your climbing against the past. I expect a lot of people would get stuck somewhere in the 1960s, which is all to the good.

 Michael Gordon 27 Sep 2021
In reply to C Witter:

Might be difficult to pick just one climb from some years. And by 'significant' it's hard to ignore the difficulty factor. I fear that such a book would end up England/Wales-centric and would prioritise shorter desperate stuff over big masterpieces such as you might find on the Dubh Loch.

 CurlyStevo 27 Sep 2021
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I meant this not the original https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/cir_mhor-13421/south_ridge_direct-...

Post edited at 10:25
1
In reply to CurlyStevo:

That's already in hard rock!

 C Witter 27 Sep 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Yes, definitely - on both points! But, dealing with those issues is part of the challenge  

It's also hard to avoid just listing all the usual suspects (e.g. Herford, Brown, Whillans, Livesey, the Birkett clan). I think some selections could be justified in the text, e.g. perhaps Hope makes it in for being an early female FA; perhaps Castle Naze's The Scoop  makes it in as a way of talking about Emily/Pat Kelly; Eroica as a way of discussing the legacies of Jill Lawrence and Gill Price; or perhaps Big Bang is included, not for the first ascent, but for Emma Twyford's ascent.

Post edited at 13:13
 Andy Hardy 27 Sep 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Tower Face (VS 5a) is sub HVS (although the start is tricky!) and definitely should be on your list

Edit: link

Post edited at 16:46
OP Kryank 27 Sep 2021
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Oh nice, been past Laddow a few times on the Pennine way. I’ll have a look next time I’m up there.

 Slackboot 28 Sep 2021
In reply to Kryank:

The Night Watch (VS 4b)  I know it says VS now but it was always HS. It is too good not to mention here.

 Mark Eddy 29 Sep 2021
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I climbed Grooved Arete on Pikes crag last year. Agree, the rock is a bit scruffy in places. But, the positions are outstanding as is the top out. Pikes crag also receives far more sun than Scafell crag thus in condition more often, quite a factor at those altitudes. And it's not like Scafell crag has been neglected by Classic rock, far from it.

 PaulJepson 29 Sep 2021
In reply to Kryank:

I climbed Will o' the Wisp (HVD) a few weeks ago and was amazed by how rubbish it was for Classic Rock. 

Elliott's Buttress Direct (HS 4b) was as good as anything else on grit. 

2
OP Kryank 29 Sep 2021
In reply to springfall2008:

Yeah climbed Inverted V (VS 4b) really great climb, I’ll keep the other on the radar. Thanks

 GrahamD 30 Sep 2021
In reply to Kryank:

Inverted V is an OK climb and really should be HS 4b.  At 4b it's neither sustained or unprotected.

 Michael Hood 30 Sep 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

It's also too polished (low down) to be fully enjoyable.

 Michael Hood 30 Sep 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

> The Night Watch (VS 4b)  I know it says VS now but it was always HS. It is too good not to mention here.

Excellent suggestion, it's really just a HS with attitude.

 Moacs 30 Sep 2021
In reply to TobyA:

> I agree with the other chap somewhere above though, walk along Stanage Popular or Froggatt etc. on a nice day and most of the action is on VS and below routes.

I think there's something about circumstances here. Work, location, family can all result in climbing being a once in a while activity, for the majority of one's life. The period where you go every weekend is often just a few years. A weekly trip to a wall raises the floor a little, but isn't the same as 2 days a week on real rock.

So I got to E1/2 quite young and then it's been a loooooong slow decline! If I haven't been for a long while S/HS seems steady and VS exciting

 Rog Wilko 01 Oct 2021
In reply to Slackboot:

> The Night Watch (VS 4b)  I know it says VS now but it was always HS. It is too good not to mention here.

This is one of the better suggestions on this thread. It is an outstanding route which is a brilliant and intimidating line and looks much harder than it actually is. Just perfect for CR. Would have made an inconvenient detour for Anna Taylor on her recent epic, though! As someone else hinted, what on earth is Will o’ the Wisp doing in while this route is omitted?

1
In reply to Rog Wilko:

Will-o'-the-wisp is a great route and I'll fight anyone who says otherwise.

 GrahamD 01 Oct 2021
In reply to Rog Wilko:

Will o the Wisp is included because its a classic on a classic crag.  It doesn't need to be good as well.

 PaulJepson 01 Oct 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

Wasn't it included because the crag was developed not long before the release of CR and Ken was invited on an early ascent? I did it about a month ago and was impressed at how unimpressive it was. The first 4 pitches are needlessly split (anyone would sensible link 1&2 and 3&4 as they go in exactly the same direction and are far too short in their own right), the rock was all a bit grotty, you're wandering around the face so much that you never really get anywhere (at the end of the '4th' pitch I noted how close the bags still were, as well as the descent gully on the left), and the whole climb only really has 1 move on it. I thought it incredibly easy for the grade it is given and thought it no more than Dif. I think the chap in the logbook comments who says there are better 1 star routes in The Pass has it spot on. I did Lazarus, The Arete, Flying Buttress and Creagh Dhu Wall in the same trip and the difference in quality was marked. 

I would give it one star, it's worth doing if you're there but it did not feel worth travelling for at all. It would be much better replaced with something like Table Direct into Cyfrwy Arete. Much more of a mega mountain route in that region. 

1
In reply to Kryank:

I really enjoyed Obsession a VS on north side of Cadair Idris.  Brilliant climb for its grade.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/cadair_idris_-_penygadair-13781/ob...

Post edited at 16:20
 Iamgregp 01 Oct 2021
In reply to Kryank:

North Face of the Uxbridge Road?

 Tired 02 Oct 2021
In reply to Kryank:

I have the book and love it, but its for day dreams.
Your favourite route of the day was Nelsons nemesis. Perhaps a tick list of ‘minor classic Grit VS’ would be good for you ? It will be on UKC somewhere.
If you really want to know where there are ***/**** VDiff - HS routes that aren’t in the book, look to more recently developed areas. Range West has them. Is there anything in the right grade range in the Scottish Sea Cliffs book ?

 Rog Wilko 04 Oct 2021
In reply to GrahamD:

Perhaps this thread would be improved if for every suggestion of an addition one had to nominate one for removal.


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