UKC

Sorry for the inconvenience caused and for the late notice, my mountaineering club is taking a trip to Froggatt on Saturday and Stanage Plantation on Friday. There will be 50 of us (it's our fresher's trip).

The reason for the delay of this post is that I wanted to make sure we had enough trad leaders, so that we don't need to set up any top ropes and we do.

Thank you for your understanding.

In reply to GuitarGenius92: Thats totally understandable Thank you for your warning. Dont take Ice axes.

In reply to tomwheeler: nah its still sport season, so we are running a bolting workshop, did you not hear about 3 pebble slap becoming fb5+?

In reply to GuitarGenius92: Can you not just take them to an indoor wall.....I think taking these huge groups out is a bit of a joke. How about only taking them outside once they have proved that they actually like climbing. Rock is a finite resource.

In reply to GuitarGenius92: sorry, that was meant to say Stanage Plantation On Sunday.

In reply to GuitarGenius92: taking 50 people, many novices to the most popular crag in the country on the busiest day of the week.

Almost had me going there for a second, well played

In reply to mikekeswick:

Because climbing indoors is a very poor substitute for climbing outdoors?

In reply to GuitarGenius92: Don't forget your trowel

In reply to thread: The group will not be made of total novices, most of the members have much experience of outdoor trad climbing, there will be a few feshers who will require instruction but, as always, we will do our upmost to ensure that we do not disturb the average climber out for a day at the crag. The freshers are competent at belaying and have been climbing indoors for several weeks. This is an event that happens every year for our club and as such we are fully aware that there is enough rock to go around

In reply to bencoope: Are youn fully aware of what the BMC access rep said about groups of this size.....

50 people is outside of our guidelines for a single crag - but if you utilise the whole of the escarpment from Froggatt woods to Curbar Car park then the traffic would be as per normal for a weekend. 50 at Froggatt on easy-ish routes could cause a few dark looks...

The BMC don't own the crag, but they are a stakeholder in the Eastern Moors Partnership that lease it and we have a crag management plan drawn up which does discourage the use of such large groups.

That's not to say that we are against group use, it's just that the new lease holders are in the driving seat and we have to negotiate to allow such use. Basically what I'm getting at is the old adage of "don't spoil it for the rest of us" dotage which I'm sure you understand.

The whole area is very sensitive at the moment and with other recreational users we want the profile of climbers to be one of exemplary.

Hope you have a good meet - but please make sure that each and everyone of your group has a very clear understanding of crag behaviour for respect of other parties. Most of all enjoy Froggatt - she is a queen amongst crags!

Cheers

Simon Jacques
BMC Eastern Moors Access Representative

In reply to bencoope: Are you fully aware of what the BMC access rep said about groups of this size.....

50 people is outside of our guidelines for a single crag - but if you utilise the whole of the escarpment from Froggatt woods to Curbar Car park then the traffic would be as per normal for a weekend. 50 at Froggatt on easy-ish routes could cause a few dark looks...

The BMC don't own the crag, but they are a stakeholder in the Eastern Moors Partnership that lease it and we have a crag management plan drawn up which does discourage the use of such large groups.

That's not to say that we are against group use, it's just that the new lease holders are in the driving seat and we have to negotiate to allow such use. Basically what I'm getting at is the old adage of "don't spoil it for the rest of us" dotage which I'm sure you understand.

The whole area is very sensitive at the moment and with other recreational users we want the profile of climbers to be one of exemplary.

Hope you have a good meet - but please make sure that each and everyone of your group has a very clear understanding of crag behaviour for respect of other parties. Most of all enjoy Froggatt - she is a queen amongst crags!

Cheers

Simon Jacques
BMC Eastern Moors Access Representative

In reply to muppetfilter: there will only be about 30 people trad climbing as the rest will be bouldering, the trad climbers will be mostly in groups of three to minimise the number of routes that we occupy. We are aware that they may be a small amount of inconvenience caused but we that is why we are forewarning people. This event was run last year and a thread surfaced immediately afterwards complimenting the maturity and compitancy of the club and how we had not disturbed their day. For climbing to progress to new generations, people must be taught to climb outdoors, unfortunately, as a university group, it is impractical to teach people outdoors in any other way.

In reply to muppetfilter: We have already had to limit the size of the trip and turn freshers down as we are aware that overcrowding is an issue

In reply to bencoope: is it easier to split the group in two and alternate days between the two crags?

In reply to alooker: Unfortunatly we have 3 minibuses so cannot divide into two. Also to transport the mats for 20 boulderers requires a lot of space so we may require all three busses for this.

In reply to bencoope:

are you going to spread along the escarpment including curbar as simon suggests..?

cheers
gregor

In reply to bencoope:

drop some people off at Bamford, Burbage (esp boulders), Millstone etc pick em up later in the day,

use the whole frogatt to baslow range and you'll be well spread out,

have fun

In reply to Thread: I see no reason to spilt up the trad climbers and boulderers as thy take up different space and their overcrowding problems are independent of each other. A decision will be made on the day of we feel that we are overcrowding a crag we will spread out to ease congestion, however this trip has been run for several years and we are yet to recive a complaint. May I emphasise that this will not be a rowdy rugby-style fresher initiation. We have enough pubs in London for that. We will respect the desires of others to have a pleasant days climbing as it is all we hope for as well.

In reply to lithos: exactly, seems like the ideal suggestion.

In reply to alooker: For all those shocked at the thought of 50 students being at Stanage on a sunny October day (as opposed to a sunny August bank holiday that will see over 100 individuals climbing there), why not climb at Secret Stanage between the plantation end and High Nebb, or to the left of High Nebb? Higgor Tor is rarely busy just over the road or why not give somewhere like Rivlin a go? Even the far end of Burbage North is rarely busy.

I always find it bizarre that there is so much opposition against the most popular crags being popular, especially when there are so many unfrequented places of excellent climbing in their midst.

In reply to EeeByGum: 50 is a rather large group, just saying it makes sense to split up, not that they shouldn't be there (nor would I have any right to!)

In reply to GuitarGenius92: 30 trad climbers in groups of 3 = 10 lines in use. a drop in the ocean, don't worry about it.

In reply to franksnb: 50 people at froggat is hardly a drop in the ocean. Was thinking of going to froggat for tomorrow too...

In reply to bencoope:

It's good that you've posted here and are obviously trying to limit your impact on the crag, but why not take each bus to a separate location each day? That would be 15-20 per crag, which must be better than 50 at a single crag.

In reply to GuitarGenius92: I'm an older grit lover, unfortunately I literally only get up there maybe once a year these days. Whilst I think its good to encourage people to enjoy the outdoors a group of 50 is a little inconsiderate to other users of these kind of crags. I have to agree with the previous post of 3 buses to 3 different areas is much more sensible. Much enjoyment comes from climbing but it also comes from the climbing community as a whole being friendly, respectful and considerate to all other users of these areas. As a club you have a responsibility to consider these values

In reply to GuitarGenius92: I was there today and I may even have spoken to you- I really think you should be aware that there was widespread unease among fellow climbers at the sheer size of the group you had there today. This is nothing to do with behaviour, everyone I spoke to was great, and I am on the committee of a uni mountaineering club so I understand your problems, particularly coming from london.
All I would suggest is that next year, by all means bring 50 people- but take one minibus to a different crag each day. It just makes things easier for everyone. Fewer people for you to worry about individually and you don't have to worry about other climbers.
I can suggest lawrencefield roadside bay as a good location for freshers- not as popular a crag so less chance of conflict, with some good routes as well.
Don't take this the wrong way- I just think that taking fifty people to a fantastic crag like froggatt and monopolising some of the classic lines there for most of the day (which did happen-I was there) is too many. Split em up and everyone will have a better time.

In reply to GuitarGenius92:

OK for Friday but Saturday is a bit much.

In reply to bencoope:

Firstly thanks to muppetfilter for quoting me and doing my job for me. I was a bit confused to see my name at the end of a post I'd not started though. Just to reiterate:


50 people is outside of our guidelines for a single crag - but if you utilise the whole of the escarpment from Froggatt woods to Curbar Car park then the traffic would be as per normal for a weekend. 50 at Froggatt on easy-ish routes could cause a few dark looks...

The BMC don't own the crag, but they are a stakeholder in the Eastern Moors Partnership that lease it and we have a crag management plan drawn up which does discourage the use of such large groups.

That's not to say that we are against group use, it's just that the new lease holders are in the driving seat and we have to negotiate to allow such use. Basically what I'm getting at is the old adage of "don't spoil it for the rest of us" dotage which I'm sure you understand.

The whole area is very sensitive at the moment and with other recreational users we want the profile of climbers to be one of exemplary.

Hope you have a good meet - but please make sure that each and everyone of your group has a very clear understanding of crag behaviour for respect of other parties. ...



From the feedback on here - this is with good reason. The Eastern Moors is indeed a very sensitive area at the moment and I'm a bit concerned that you did not recognise this despite people's warnings.

Apologies if you did send parties all along the escarpment to curbar and baslow but 50 people at Froggatt alone could jepodise group use as access can be taken away from you by the owners - believe me - I drew up the management plan which can be seen on the Eastern Moors website.

We would kindly ask groups to stick to the BMC's crag management rules as the are more extremely sensitive issues coming up, please familiarise yourself with the STANAGE asset review.

I hope you had a good day but we would politely ask in future so as not to put future group use in jeopardy to follow the guidelines.

As a footnote - at the moment on the crags at Curbar and Froggatt there is extensive tree felling by the EMP on the estate so please all be vigilant and take care.

Many thanks

Simon Jacques
BMC Eastern Moors Access Representative.

Have to say I agree entirely with the last ten or so posts. OUMC took 50-odd people to Portland today, but we sent one bus to the Cuttings, one to Cheyne Wears and a third to Blacknor - and so far as I know had no issues at all. Why would you choose to send all the minibuses to the same place?

In reply to GuitarGenius92:
I was in the Peak myself yesterday and with the stable weather it was certainly busy everywhere. My mate wanted to go to froggatt but was put off due to this meet. As a club should it not have a mission statement kind of thing where the club not only meets, climbs and has a great time but also promotes good crag etiquette and ethics. Your group of 50 could have eaisly been absorbed into the eastern grit area by splitting it up, not like we are short of crags there. 5 groups of 10 would have been far more acceptable for example.

In reply to GuitarGenius92: Also been put off plantation today. Glad i noticed this before heading out.

In reply to bencoope:

It woundn't be fontainebleau 5+ if it were a sport climb now would it....

In reply to andy healey: Im put off going to plantation in summer because it gets busy. Wonder if the BMC would mind going and getting some of them to smeg off so I can enjoy the crag in peace and quiet.

In reply to GuitarGenius92:
>


Could I please ask what club you are and if you are affiliated to the BMC please?

Many thanks

Simon Jacques
BMC Eastern Moors Access Representative.

In reply to Simon:

Do you have a link for the group use guidelines? Had a look through the BMC website and I seem to be unable to find them.

Thanks, Kevin.

In reply to GuitarGenius92:

Some people in these forums need to start climbing harder, then they won't care about a load of punters on the easy routes.

In reply to Ed Navigante:

What about the punters toproping the hard routes

E

In reply to Ed Navigante:
Depends on your definition of easy- I was there to tick the classic HVS's, some of which I definitely did not find easy!
London Imperial College by the way BMC.

In reply to spidermonkey09:
In this the same college from which someone was dry-tooling on Millstone earlier this year ??

In reply to fred99: Wouldn't know mate, not sure whether they are an ice climbing/dry tooling club...dry tooling at millstone?!

In reply to spidermonkey09:
Sorry, didn't mean to direct it to you, meant a general question.
The plonker in question was a Calum Nichol, and on checking it was December 2010.
I seem to remember that he was at Imperial College London - if so, then one has to ask questions about this group.

In reply to fred99:

Questions were asked, and someone from Imperial College's Mountaineering Club promptly responded to confirm that Calum was not involved with the club and even if he had been, his dry tooling at Millstone would have still been an individual action and not club-related. I thought even before that response, that it was pretty obvious that a club would not have condoned someone doing this, and that it was ridiculous to try to tar them with the same brush. I used to be part of a uni mountaineering club. A couple of weeks ago I got rescued of Three Pebble Slab. Should questions be asked of my old club? Of course not.

In reply to GuitarGenius92: I was at Froggatt on Saturday and while I appreciate the BMC guidelines I must say that this bunch seemed very friendly and well behaved. Didn't detract from my day at all. Others will no doubt have other views.

In reply to bencoope: Hi Ben, re the trip being run for several years with no complaint. If you were the very large group camped below the green traverse today with one guy shouting obsenities at the club members who wished to leave early then please take this as your first complaint. I am glad to say he stopped on request but the volume, frequency and nature of his language was totally unnacceptable especailly when there were children at the crag.

In reply to Gambit: The person in question is no longer a member of the club, this is an incident I was unaware of until now but questions will be asked into his future participation on trips if this attitude continues. The club would like to apologise for any offence caused.

In reply to bencoope:

Again could I please ask what club you are and if you are affiliated to the BMC please?

Many thanks

Simon Jacques
BMC Eastern Moors Access Representative.

In reply to gcandlin:



Sorry to correct you, but these are not just BMC guidelines, they are the lease holders the Eastern Moors Partnership's too who can stop group use at the click of a finger.

Any outright flouting of them could and have had serious consequences.

The BMC produce guidelines for a reason - to secure access. When it's lost - its invariably lost in our experience. We ask good practice for a reason for the majority of well behaved and respectful group use.

I will say it for a third time, and if you don't get it by now, then you you shouldn't be on the crag, the area has sensitive access issues, and people need to be aware of them before climbing there. The lack of feedback is alarming to understand these issues and just selfish wanton - that's the thing that's so sad...

Si

(not as BMC on this post)

I would suggest the club in question is Imperial College London.....

http://union.ic.ac.uk/rcc/mountaineering/committee

In reply to bencoope:

Why did you ignore the guidelines Ben?

E

In reply to Simon:

Hi Simon, I am another member of the trip and as of now we are driving back into London. We are Imperial college and were waiting to get back, get a real computer with stable internet and time to go through the entire thread to respond fully. The one response given was because we felt this should be addressed immediately. A full response should show up within a few hours

Jack

In reply to bencoope: Thanks Ben, while your prompt reply is appreciated. Reading the thread as a whole it looks like this has not been the best weekend for your club.

In reply to Simon: Hi Simon,

I will assume only the first sentence of your post was aimed at myself.

I was not condoning their actions just trying to offer further information that they were well behaved whilst there even if they shouldn't have been there in that number.

I fully agree that we must be very careful in respecting the wishes of the stakeholders.

Cheers

Gareth

In reply to Gambit:

And if you scroll back up to the last post from Friday night this was obviously going to be the outcome.

E

In reply to Enty: I agree the timing leaves no excuses and agree with Si that the whole episode is rather sad. The Imperial college club needs to go away and reflect on how it will represent its self in future.

In reply to GuitarGenius92:

How was the weekend guys?

In reply to Enty: As a Sheffield resident and student can I just point out that there were 2 other large University groups at Frogatt yesterday & at least one other at Stanage today. Likewise 2 weekends ago another university brought an even bigger group to the same venues. This thread summarizes why most Uni clubs stopped posting their meets online, by attempting to be courteous they just earn themselves a load of self-righteous internet abuse.

I fully agree with Simon about the importance of stakeholder relations with regards to access however I would argue that by spreading along 2 long edges and between bouldering and routes the contribution to a busy day on a grit edge is negligible. When I was climbing with a friend 2 weekends ago at the same venue as a very large Uni group I found my day essentially unaffected except for more pads and spotters which are always welcome.

Some perspective please gentlemen.

In reply to AlistairB: I agree with the general thrust of your message, except they weren't spread along the escarpment, there was a congregation at froggatt. There were indeed other groups there, but in much smaller numbers which is much more appropriate, and they didn't commandeer lines either- one group asked if I wanted a line when I was walking past it.
I am also from a uni mountaineering club and serving notice of your intention to go to a crag is the right thing to do- what Imperial (in my view) have done wrong is take such a large group to such a popular crag. I know, as I'm sure you do, about the difficulty of taking new climbers outside for the first few times- it just needs a common sense approach.

In reply to AlistairB:
Well said. I was not at Froggatt this weekend so did not encounter the Imperial club, but another time I encountered two large uni groups - Newcastle and another one, possibly Cheltenham? - and despite there being a large number of people there, it really didn't affect my day or my route choice. And there was very little top-roping going on (not that there is anything wrong with top roping) and NO "hogging of routes". I had some brief chats with people from both groups and all were mature, courteous, respectful and friendly. Unlike a lot of UKC forum posters.

BUT...I was not in the presence of the Imperial College club this weekend.

(I am an alumnus of Imperial College myself. Thought I'd better declare that so that the trolls can use it to negate my entire post)

In reply to spidermonkey09:

Almost the same as a point I made here many times before. If clubs are not posting such intentions is this really because they know at heart their choice isn't ideal? Just because some occasions it all works doesn't stop the fact that at other times it doesn't, like some unpleasant congestion a few years back on Froggatt. I'd also like to know who gets to judge who it is not ok for, because if more bigger clubs (from the hundreds of Uni/college clubs out there) all did this at once, there would be problems. Or are we saying posts here 'baggsie' the crag for that University?

In reply to AlistairB:

Past evidence would show otherwise as September/October weekend congestion at Froggatt can be a problem. Stanage is a way better choice as it has a much larger concentration of routes in the lower grades and enough to avoid the major classics (with the biggest liklihood of a queue and where beginners shouldn't be anyway). You could swallow 10 clubs there at once. The reality is that some clubs (eg Sheffield at Lawrencefield) think these things through properly and others (anyone chosing Froggatt as the main venue)really rely on luck that they won't clash too much with others choosing the same venue.

In reply to AlistairB:

Questioning why someone went against the representative bodies' guidelines is not internet abuse - neither is it self righteous.

Why would anyone want to be part of a group of 50 anyway? That's what gets me.

E

In reply to Offwidth:



Isn't it just time to just sacrifice Stanage to group use only? Fence it off and prohibit access to groups of less than ten. 'Course, some inconsiderate bastards would probably cheat by meeting in Outside and forming themselves into groups...

In reply to jon:

>less than ten

fewer

In reply to Enty:

Top roping hard routes with freshers is a sin- if they have climbing shoes they may be able to get up a VS on toprope without weighting it, tho probably no more (and usually less).*

Anyone taking a punter up a hard slab is ruining it for others. You see people flailing their legs and polishing the holds.

People who take their punters up hard routes that they can't do are just doing it for themselves, and shouldn't be taking people out anyway. Thankfully most people don't do this.

*have seen some plastic pullers who can't trad to save their lives but will toprope the hell out of an E3 :P different type of punter.

In reply to Ed Navigante:
I'd like to say that while other groups were, we (imperial) didn't set any top ropes, nor did we drag freshers up things too hard for them. Also we did spread out across froggatt plus a large chunk of us were bouldering at various spots at curbar.
While tradding on both days we kept teaching off the classics so that any locals out for the weekend were affected as little as possible. Since there is little left to say we have taken the responses into account and will likely not be posting anything more.

In reply to jakk: Would it be possible to look at some of the suggestions about the most sympathetic ways to go about introducing people to outdoor climbing. The BMC guidence is just that, helpfull advice on causing the minimum impact for all, and introducing new climbers in a way that they can learn the aspects of respect for the environment and others that should go to make them responsible climbers.

The attitude of "we run this trip here every year because we do" seriously needs assessing, If you find the negative comments disconcerting then please try and take some advice from them about how best to minimise your impact on the world of climbing for your members and for others.

In reply to Enty:

Personally (not as ICMC any more) it isn't that I am necessarily drawn to an enormous group, if I could easily get out for the day with a handful of friends that would be great, but living in London (and that + being a student mean also not driving) means that it is pretty difficult to actually get outside and so I myself will take any opportunity to get out on actual rock. Its not an ideal situation but I think for many it is early in the year before anyone has much work, before it gets seriously cold, and is a good opportunity for learning to improve your trad and it is just an easy way to actually get outside. Despite how this thread was allowed to get slightly out of control with us not being able to respond all weekend I am in fact delighted with how the club is run; we have regular trips and dozens of enthusiastic, competent members. Frankly, the future is bright

In reply to bencoope:

I thought you lot were meant to be the next generation of innovative, creative, outside-the-box-thinking engineers and scientists?

In reply to jakk:

Have you noticed a big increase in interest in the last couple of years?

In reply to Simon:

Simon, perhaps you could update the BMC access database to include the group warning as I wasn't aware of the access agreement at Froggatt being sensitive until you posted today. There is no mention of it at:

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/ViewCrag.aspx?id=587

which group users are directed by the green guide to look at when considering choice of crags. Just the usual group warning message.

Vincent

Hi Simon - just thought you might like to edit the sentence below....


I may be old, but I'm not yet in my dotage :0-)

Cheers, JW

In reply to Liam Brown:

There seems to have been a big increase of interest in the sport generally in the last few years, perhaps because its being better publicised plus there have been 3 new walls in London this year but I think we've been growing steadily. I think that any uni club fluctuates between a serious club and a drinking club and while I hear about 6/7 years ago it was pretty much the latter, at the moment its booming. The standard has definitely increased from when I started 2 years ago and basically enthusiastic existing members are better at drawing and keeping new ones.

In reply to jakk:

Because of the resons you stated I was wondering whether it was a general trend that uni groups are getting bigger, and providing more people with the skills to get out climbing, rather than something peculiar to your club. Moreover that this wasn't a fluctuation but a newly attained standard which will be maintained - more climbers can probably (hopefully) only mean more good climbers. Just seemed like this was the case in Manchester anyway. I wanted to see what the situation was at Imperial.

By the way, I think some of what has been aimed at you was pent up from our trip in September and the thread we started then. I hope it hasn't been too unnerving. It seemed like you guys were having a good trip yesterday. I managed to make use of your pads. Good luck with the year.

In reply to Liam Brown: By "Aimed at" do you mean the polite request from the BMC area rep? Would it not be prudent to consider his reasoned response in the future regarding choosing better venues for your needs than Frogatt...

In reply to muppetfilter:

Yes it would be useful to consider his statement in future, but that isn't the entire thread. As stated, it may be useful to have this and similar information on the regional access database.

In reply to jakk: You aren't taking the crucial point on board- 50 people is too many just at froggatt. I appreciate the london problem, it puts you in a tricky position but thats why you're committee, to work out the best way of doing things.
Ignoring the BMC (still) is also not great- without them neither of our uni clubs would have jack shit to climb on.

In reply to spidermonkey09:
I'm just going to throw my hat in here as the leader of one of the other uni clubs at Froggatt on Saturday. While I can empathise with the committee of imperial collage as with living in London journey times to the peaks in a limited minibus is an utter pain in the arse, however its hard to see the logic in taking 50 people to a single crag. Surely (at least to my mind) a more polite and considerate approach would have been to split the group between three crags (after all they had 30 leaders!)and alternate the following day?

While I cant fault the members of the club as they all seemed rather friendly and courteous when i spoke with them, I must say that a number of other climbers who i spoke to on the crag ended up growing quite impatient towards the end of the day due to constantly having to wait for lines etc.

My club has also been running freshers activities to the peaks so i understand both the need to get people interested in the club and the difficulty of taking newbies outside. Yet we have done our best to avoid this situation by running a large number of smaller trips rather than one massive one and have done our best to avoid popular locations&lines.

In reply to Liam Brown:
I think it is something general rather than just specific to us, and I hope that the standard can be maintained, many of our strongest at the moment are 2nd years so there are another 2/3 years of us to help keep the club going strong and I especially want to see how high we can push the upper limit of the work/climbing ratio. The number of freshers actually retained does vary a lot, 2 years ago it was pretty abysmal but last year was a good number and a load of newbies to the club (not necessarily to climbing) this year are super keen.
I must say though that as excited as I am that climbing is becoming popular, while ever more indoor walls can be built, there is a limit of (developed at least) rock scattered around the country, especially the places that are easily accessible and I can see overcrowding and ultimately access beginning to be a problem and it will be the experienced climbers who will have to act responsibly, be that uni clubs or the walls who introduce people in the first place changing their approach slightly through some bmc initiative or whatever and really driving ethics into people.

The thread has been interesting to read through at least, and it is testament to why clubs don't generally post but it should be fine, I guess we'll look at it when planning next year and see what happens. Glad to lend the pads, we do seem to have hundreds now and as a boulderer and partly in response also to the plantation hogging complaints there is rarely such a thing as too many pads or spotters.

In reply to Liam Brown: If you google "bmc group use froggatt" you get this page...

http://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/viewcrag.aspx?id=587

Kind of says it all really.

In reply to Fraser hill-casey: You make some fair points but I still can't understand why everyone flocks to Froggatt? There are a zillion and one suitable crags in the Peak, many of which will have had no one there. Why Froggatt?

In reply to jakk: Still ignoring the main issue AND the bmc- I'm from leicester uni and we wrote on UKC informing them of our freshers trip plans to no response whatsoever.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=522174&v=1#x7039048
Just to note- there weren't actually 50 people there, more like 30 due to lack of interest unfortunately. you are certainly doing better than us in that respect.
Nevertheless- the crucial point here is NOT the number of people per se, it is the number of people that you take to a hugely popular crag. Where I would argue we have organised our freshers trip better is in the choice of crag. As I'm sure you'll be aware- Roadside bay at lawrencefield is a pretty underused and quiet area mainly because it isn't very good- but it has about 10-15 routes of varying difficulty that are perfect to introduce freshers to outdoor climbing.
If there had been people at roadside bay, or people turned up, our plan was to split the group and take sections to different areas.
you need to reevaluate your organisation and general attitude towards people in the forum- we're trying to help you out so conflict can be avoided. I tried to point this out in person but was met with a pretty arrogant attitude.

In reply to Fraser hill-casey:

Thanks; that's exactly the sort of thing we need to happen. Again I'm not asking that we put Froggatt in 'cotton wool' just that we should avoid big groups at the busiest time of the year (probably weekends in sept/early Oct). In case people can't be arsed with the RAD link this is what it says:


"Easy access and many classic routes have ensured Froggatt has remained very popular over the years. Unfortunately, this is resulting in many of the famous routes becoming polished and having worn protection slots. So, instead of repeating that classic for the nth time, why not spread the load and choose a different crag?

Be sensitive to other users: do not monopolize sections of the crag. All group leaders should familiarise themselves with BMC guidelines for group use, see here, http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=350 "

In reply to muppetfilter:

Yes, that was the page I was referring to. I thought it odd the statement you put up was on a ukc forum post but not on that page. I'm still trying to judge when I can stop "spreading the load" and actually go climb Brown's Eliminate.

In reply to spidermonkey09:

You have to take into account though that Leicester isn't too far from the Peak whereas I bet you'd struggle to find 30 leaders to pay and do a long drive from London to come and climb crap routes, especially when a day trip like this is rare. So if you can't get the people to come and lead freshers up then you'll either have no one to climb with or have to have lots of top ropes set up instead (which causes other arguments).

Also, if you're introducing people to routes that don't see much traffic and aren't "very good" then they'll be less keen to get back out, IMO. Would you want to pay and travel that far to climb roadside bay?

In reply to James Malloch: Good point, potentially a smaller trip might become necessary, but it was so quiet when we were there we were able to set up a couple of top ropes on the couple of v.diff chimneys which caused no problem at all since they are never climbed.
Also, we worked a rotation system where after a while the experienced leaders nipped round the corner to gingerbread and led for a bit there. The routes aren't actually THAT bad at roadside- theres a nice HVS, a few VS's and an E2 that looked pretty sweet.

In reply to James Malloch:

On the eastern edges it's actually a matter of choice between routes with good traffic or routes with excessive traffic and this for half the bus that won't likely ever climb outside again (I know as I was in a student club for 15+ years). I wouldn't advise experienced trad pairs to avoid the big classics ...just the beginners. I do also wonder where all those huge mass of crap no star and one star routes are on more suitable places like Wharncliffe, Stanage etc.

In reply to spidermonkey09: Yeah we use the Roadside bay too and it works well with people leading around the pool too. Though we're from Sheffield Uni and it's a 50p bus journey haha!

I've never really been to Froggatt so can't comment on size of groups etc. Places like the roaches can work well, plus with the addition of campsites it has seemed to work well (though again I've never been on our trip there).

In reply to EeeByGum:

Really - a zillion and all deserted on a nice autumn weekend? Go on, enlighten me.


Chris

In reply to James Malloch:

I'd recommend avoiding The Roaches Upper and Lower Tiers as well. The Skyline is OK though for beginners and the campsite and general Roaches area is great for a spread-the-load multi-venue arrangements. If you'd been more times than you can remember to both the Roaches and Froggatt, like some of us here have (..and including student group trips), you might understand more the problems and the increasing wear and tear. Part of the irony these days is that top-roping is less of a problem than inexperienced lead climbers: the main noticably increasing damage I see on the most popular grit routes is expanding cam slots from people falling/ resting/tugging their cams.

In reply to the thread:

So you have 50 students and 3 minibuses.

One minibus heads for Stanage, drops some off at High Neb, and some at the Plantation, then parks at the Popular End.

Another bus parks at Surprise View, and the occupants split, a third going to Lawrencefield, a third to Millstone, and some to Owler Tor.

The third minibus parks at Curbar Gap, a batch head for Baslow, some head for the near part of Curbar, and the rest to the far parts of Curbar.

The result would be that the 50-strong party would barely be noticed, with only about 6 at each venue.

In reply to James Malloch: You jammy sod! The pool wall looks amazing but is a bit too hardcore for me at the mo- most of its about e5 off the top of my head with a couple of VS's spread about.
yeah roaches is a good shout but again probably not the lower tier.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

With part of the fun of freshers trips being meeting more people and having a good time, not climbing all the time and having a bit of banter. That sounds an awful trip!

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Goddammit! There you go again with a sensible suggestion. Not rocket science is it? (I hate that phrase)

E

In reply to Enty:

I don't know if Imperial consider the allocation of first aiders in their plans. If so, this spread would probably be a bit broad. Otherwise, you forgot Secret Garden

In reply to Coel Hellier:
Why only 6 at each venue? As a sociable climber, just heading out to the peak on a weekend with mates can easily mean 20 people I know are at the same crag, yet since we're not a 'group' I wouldn't consider letting people on ukc know where we are in advance nor would I expect us to harm anyone elses enjoyment of the crag.

In reply to James Malloch:

A lot of other climbers make long trips to go climbing.

In reply to Liam Brown:

That's would be well out of order. I wouldn't even send a student there

E

In reply to James Malloch:


It's possible to have a good time and some banter and not climb all the time in a group of 6. (I was out yesterday in a group of a mere 4, and didn't consider it "awful", quite the opposite.) It also keeps things within BMC guidelines, and avoids over-using any one venue. Note that there's also the pub and the local wall for meeting the rest of the club.

In reply to maria_thorpe:


Read above posts by Simon Jacques.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

As in you consider 6 people at a crag group use?

In reply to maria_thorpe:


No, I consider 50 people at one crag to fall outwith BMC guidelines, and was merely suggesting a sensible and easily workable logistic such that a group of 50 with 3 minibuses could avoid falling foul of the guidelines and avoid over-burdening any one crag.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Would you consider having the whole minibus at one crag over-burdening then?

In reply to Liam Brown:


At Stanage Popular, no. At Back Forest, yes. At Curbar, spread along 4 buttresses, no; all milling around Maupassant, yes. Etc.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Oh, of course. Because you had taken so much effort to spread people out I was under the impression 6 people was important. Sorry about the confusion.

In reply to Liam Brown:

No, I wasn't intending anything particular by the 6, it was just an off-the-cuff example that with a bit of thought it's easy to spread people out to the point where there is no issue.

In reply to Liam Brown:

You can climb it any time you want, Its a great line .... Just dont take 50 freshers along to stand under you as a human bouldering mat.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Of course not. I don't think I'd be able to claim the grade if I did.

In reply to GuitarGenius92:

Wow, some folk are really precious aren't they. When we get 50 extra people climbing at Fairhead, we call it a meet and have beers with a campfire and barbeque afterwards. Next time bring your meet to NI, you'll save yourself some grief.

In reply to M0nkey:

Ah yes, Froggatt, the Fairhead of grit...

In reply to M0nkey:

It's not the Fairhead with loads of polished classics and knackered footpaths and dodgy access agreement is it?



E

In reply to GuitarGenius92:

Out of interest what would be the collective UKC wisdom be concerning taking a group of 15-20 climbers to Higgar Tor, travelling there by way of 5 and 10 cars. Once there this group would leave in-situ gear in most worthwhile routes from 'Block and tackle' to 'The File' for a period of about 4 hours as the group take turns at these routes. In that time other crag users will not be taken in to consideration and no offers to remove gear will be made.

In reply to melonmike:

Crag swag?

In reply to melonmike:

Leave in-situ gear on the classics at Higgar and let people redpoint the routes.

I'd laugh my cock off.

(double one)

E

In reply to AlistairB:



Hi Alistair

I hope that I have not come across as self-righteous or abusive - apologies if it appeared to you that way. Moreover I was trying to do what is sometime a very hard job in making people aware of access issues and the fragile nature of land ownership/management and salable assets in the Peak District at the moment. We do the job voluntarily because we care about the area's we climb and walk and want to secure them for all.

Of course we want people to come and enjoy the crags, the landscape and the climbing and I don't wish to bore you with the minutia or politics, but the future of these crags are so important and we are at a critical mass at the moment to sum it all up.

Keep in touch via the BMC website for updates if you can, and again apologies for any offence caused on this thread to any participant, we just want to keep these beautiful landscapes and crags open for all.

Cheers

Simon Jacques
BMC Eastern Moors Access Representative

In reply to Simon:

You're too kind to him Simon. Am I being courteous if I let you know I'm going to put up a tent in your garden? Also much of the 'abuse' is re-iteration of sensible BMC advice. The internet being the internet will always result in a few folk who are unreasonably rude but this topic comes up every year and every year some big clubs are making the same lazy decisions. My old club knew about these issues 20 years ago and we ran smaller trips with most of the initial beginners tested out indoors first so those going out were keen and we spread out during the day. The mass social bit was the evenings (easily long enough at this time of year). If Manchester and Imperial (two fo the worst offenders) just advertised a Curbar/Froggatt trip it would have helped.

In reply to GuitarGenius92:

Excuse my ignorance, but what's the reason you can't have your freshers meet on the Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of freshers week when the crags will likely be deserted, instead of the weekends?

In reply to Dave 88:

Postgrads and ex-members who may want to come (who are also likely to include the most experienced climbers).

In reply to Dave 88:

People will have only just got to uni and wont know anyone and might not have looked into clubs. For example the sports fair at sheffield is on the Friday in freshers week, so unless you've done research prior to coming to uni then you wont know what's going on. So numbers would be low and it wouldn't include any freshers hardly.

Also for hiring minibuses etc you need a good idea of numbers so you get the cost correct.

In reply to Dave 88:

The freshers week is packed with events so you can get started properly on your course. Even dedicated climbers going to Uni have to pretend they care about this.

In reply to Simon:
"...I hope that I have not come across as self-righteous or abusive..."

You haven't at all, Simon - simply slightly frustrated in trying to do your difficult and important job!

In reply to Jakk:
"I think it is something general rather than just specific to us"

No, it's very specific to you (presuming 'you' is indeed Imperial). Your club knew that your meet was outside the guidelines, you were advised not to go there, and you went anyway. You might have not set top-ropes, split up the trad and the bouldering and so on - but you still took 50 people to Froggatt. And so far no-one from the club has acknowledged that they were in the wrong - the closest anyone's got is to say that they'll re-read this thread next year.

Don't get me wrong - I am all in favour of freshers' meets, and indeed am helping with OUMC's three 50-strong meets this year. But we - as do most university clubs - take great care to ensure that we cause as little hassle to other users of the crags as possible by sending minibuses to different locations, making sure our ratios are reasonable, and - guess what - avoiding Froggatt. I don't think you've been subject to flaming or internet abuse - I think it's actually been quite reasonable, given how these threads have sometimes descended.

And I sympathise with how much work goes into these trips. We're experiencing a surge in new members as well, to the point where we considered a fourth freshers' meet to accomodate them all. We don't want to turn beginners away, so the meets get bigger, and it starts to get hard to find enough leaders who're prepared for three hours each way in a minibus to climb loads of Diffs and VDiffs, but we manage. And we manage - here's the important bit, in case you still haven't got it - without lazily sending all three buses to the same place.

On another note, can anyone say why the usual Freshers' Meet thread died off this year? It was really useful this time last year, especially to avoid clubs clashing - we bumped into a couple of other clubs at Portland last weekend who we'd have avoided if we'd known they would be there too. Is it worth leaving it as a premier post for the duration of September and October?

In reply to All:

Fair enough, all my mates who went to uni just spent freshers getting smashed. Didn't realise you actually had to do stuff!

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Thanks due to you and OUMC for following guidelines. I also support the Freshers Meet thread but in this I really wonder how many 50+ member bus trips are planned and not posted here. I suspect very few indeed... most Uni clubs I met at BMC training events over the years seem to have got the message and many of those would be spreading out (if so a posting wouldn't even be neccesary). I also think established good practice is important so that other clubs where turnover has left relatively fresh officials can benefit: I always highlight the Sheffield Uni arrangements at Lawrencefield, as I've been there 3 times now at the same time and it seemed to work really well, with beginners in the left bay and improvers lead climbing and trying hard not to hog starred routes/get in the way of other crag users; such an event does obviously benefit from a post.

In reply to GuitarGenius92: Did anyone have to suffer Burbage North on Sunday. Two very large Uni groups there, Cambridge was one and I think the other was either Portsmouth or Plymouth (Memory for names gets a bit iffy at my age) plus two very large groups of early teens. All these were very large groups. There were top ropes like knitting, helmetless leaders falling off, experiences leaders teaching beginners to tie a figure eight and thern leading them up VS, people throwing their drinks bottles/sandwiches off the top to their friends, various dogs eating peoples sandwiches, etc etc etc. Fortunately there were no injuries as far as I know, but how that was avoided was pure luck. I personally stopped a 'novice' climbing and tied them onto the rope with it throught both parts of the harness and with a completed figure eight as opposed to what looked like a rethreaded overhand knot just through the leg loop! There was little or no supervision on the ground, the experienced climbers apparently having lead a route and were standing at the top. Some of the climbing calls from the experienced climbers were amusing/amazing/unitelligable, 'Actually I am quite safe for the moment, take off the belay, take the rope out of the thingy.' was possibly the best, at which point this leader then proceeded to fall off the last 7ft of Sentinel Crack, fortunately landing on the ledge without going any further It really was a shambles and quite took the edge off the day.
Castle Naze the previous weekend was also the subject of a very large group of 'freshers'. Two bus loads, approx 25 people on a very small crag, with loads of top-ropes. We did manage to work round them, as they. at least stayed on the easier routes, and seemed to be well organised and supervised.

In reply to johncook:

This is why I think that having the Freshers' meet thread as a stickie for six weeks or so would be a good idea - it'd at least allow groups to know where other groups planned to be and to avoid them. I've been annoyed in the past to turn up to a crag, having posted weeks ago that we'd be there, to find two other Uni groups already there: I'd have gone somewhere different with my lot had I only known!

Not that this would help much with the behaviour you describe.

In reply to Jamie Wakeham: It is the behaviour thing that makes it a problem. If all the groups had been considerate it wouldn't have been too bad, but they all wanted their territory, and set about it by blocking the bottoms of routes, sitting in the middle of the path to eat their lunch/have a chat/sleep/etc. etc. I had to ask, several times, for a belayer to move from the bottom of a route that I wanted to lead, and as soon as I was above him he moved back under me. Oh the desire to land on his helmetless head with my collection of ancient big hexes!
We were a group of about 6 people, and we tried not to hog routes, only occasionally having a leader and then two seconds, and then freeing up the route for the next pairs, as opposed to some routes with top-ropes, which were there all day, with people standing around at the bottom who were always 'just about to climb', if you asked!

In reply to Offwidth:

Drinking then?

In reply to Simon:

Neither of those comments were meant in reference to you Simon. I respect the work of the BMC access reps hugely, you do great work on behalf of all of us. There's just a small but vocal minority who seem to believe that students have no "right" to climb anything but choss and that the eastern edges would magically be empty on sunny weekends if it wasn't for university students. Though, the fact that they manage to be queuing for 3* classics on the eastern edges whilst posting complaints on UKC / not even living in the UK is true testament to modern technology.

For what it's worth, everyone holding up Sheffield as an example is pretty daft. When I had the misfortune to be in charge of a Uni club we tried the whole Lawrencefield thing and ended up taking over the entire crag even with people bouldering at mother cap & some people doing routes at Millstone. Maybe it works if people don't mind having significantly less than one route per. climbing team and the waiting that that involves but for non-local (not Sheffield) clubs people want to get as much climbing as possible out of their weekend.

Splitting up to completely separate areas isn't really that viable because of ensuring sufficient first-aiders and responsible persons in the event of an accident. This is the fault of union regulations (some of which have to be seen to be believed!)

Anyway, I was bouldering around Frogatt / Curbar on Saturday and didn't think it was any worse than a typical sunny weekend. As I said, it was just as "bad" 2 weeks before. I also can't think of a time when I haven't seen queues for the usual suspects like Todys or TPS, didn't seem any worse to me. Plenty of people had spread out to Curbar too (which is where I mainly ended up bouldering). I think the issue of Frogatt being overcrowded runs beyond Uni groups to be honest.

Anyway, I'm a PhD student living in Sheffield now so my club days are basically over. I just wanted to give some perspective from someone who actually lives and climbs here regularly (though on limestone if at all possible) and hasn't forgotten what it's like to try and run one of these trips.

In reply to AlistairB:

By far the worst club behaviour I have seen was not from a uni club at all but a "local mountaineering club" (their actions were reported by me to the relevant BMC reps at the time and I won't dredge up the details here). It does always seem to be the student clubs that bear the brunt of everyone's ire. Soft and obvious targets, with even more class snobbery involved these days.
I am aware that I am posting on a thread ABOUT a student group so I'll leave it there

In reply to AlistairB:

Who's that then?

E

In reply to Offwidth:


Could you possibly clarify in what way advertising it as a Froggatt/Curbar trip would have helped, please?

Given that MUMC's intention was already to spread along the Froggatt/Curbar escarpment I am unclear as to how advertising that would have helped other than to possibly reduce some of the more extreme reactions.

I am no longer an MUMC member however I would take issue with the "worst offenders" comment. Of all the clubs (uni and other) I came across while a part of MUMC I fail to see how a well behaved group, who do not use in-situ top ropes, who plan out their day carefully, who aim to spread themselves as thinly as possible (taking into account more factors than most on here are willing to consider) and who post on here out of courtesy to other users to warn them that it may be slightly busier than normal (though that impact on other people's climbing will be minimal) can be considered a worst offender.

Granted there have been useful contributions and discussions of issues put forward regarding crag choice (notably by yourself and Simon) and some poor/ almost worthless ones (notably by muppetfilter once again) and those will be taken under advisement I am sure. However I feel that to call MUMC a worst offender is quite a dis-service. Perhaps I have misunderstood your comment and you are speaking specifically regarding the use of Froggatt as a venue but as far as uni clubs and especially general climbing clubs (there are some with atrocious crag etiquette) MUMC and by the sounds of it Imperial are far from the worst offenders.

Above I described a group scenario at Higgar Tor. I would be interested by your opinions of it and a guess as to who it was.

In reply to melonmike:

Take a wild stab in the dark.....



E

In reply to Enty:

I have. See the sentence below that.

Is your considered opinion similar?

In reply to melonmike:

No it's obvious. I'm flying back on Friday. I'll have one day on the grit this weekend, my first since 2006. If these people insist on going against the BMC recommendations I'd like to know anyway so I can avoid those crags.

Simple.

E

In reply to Enty:

I must be simple because to me it isn't obvious, perhaps you could help. My thought process was as follows:

It would have helped to advertise it as a Froggatt/Curbar trip. It was advertised as a Froggatt trip and then mentioned that it would extend to Curbar. Mentioning Curbar sooner would have reduced people's over the top reactions? Mentioning Curbar would have given anyone going to Curbar ample time to prepare to deal with 6 or so additional people on the entire crag?

Other than that I am struggling to understand how else it would have helped hence me asking for clarification.

Uni clubs are far from the only people not strictly abiding to guidelines.

In reply to Enty:

The new Over the Moors guidebook seems very good. A lot of people seem to have put a lot of very good work into it. Only used it once so far though. Unrelated to this thread. Just saying.

In reply to Liam Brown:

Yeah i went to Dartmoor last weekend. Unrelated to this thread. Just saying.

In reply to Liam Brown: Yeah, I went to Curbar on Sunday and didn't see any other climbers, not really related but there we are...

In reply to Mr Mark Stephen Davies:

I don't think thats anywhere near where Enty is going. I might be wrong though. Maybe he will be closer to Dartmoor than the peak.

In reply to Liam Brown:

The new Yorkshire grit Guide is out - why on earth would I bother with the Peak?



E

In reply to melonmike: If you feel my highlighting of good crag etiquette and representative body recomendations as poor and worthless then so be it.

In reply to muppetfilter:

Aaaaah excellent, so you are capable of responding to me. For 2 years I have asked you direct questions about such trips and you have never seemed to respond. I am grateful for the positive and constructive suggestions made by the good folk of UKC and I have always looked to engage in reasoned discussion to help a suitable solution be found, yet you have never returned the favour. You have parroted the BMC policies well enough but never engaged over them or tried to understand things from another perspective.

Other people's contributions have been of benefit and the intentions behind yours are admirable (I hope) however your methods of helping are counter-productive if anything.

In reply to melonmike:

You're 'worst offender' Unis only in defensive responses here because you both very big and yet continue to go to Froggatt and/or argue its benefits despite BMC advice. In Manchester's case with pretty lame excuses when the reasoning was winkled out previously (ie you used to go to Eric Byne campsite/ Robin Hood pub/ Birchen, Gardoms south etc ...a better spread venue... but the pub landlord was miserable).

Advertising the wider venue up-front helps make it clear you understand the issues. This is important for the fresher trip venue thread to work properly (such threads can't be a licence to go anywhere unquestioned). The more extreme reactions here are hence only a small and largely irrelevant part of that (and I still think most reactions here are pretty proportionate). As I said above it's also not exactly courteous to repeatedly advertise a problematic venue choice. When I was a Uni club gear sec for over a decade we worked with the BMC and thought quite hard about minimising impact to set the best example we could. Even with this, we occasionally made some honest mistakes and some of our members sometimes let us down.

To get this in perspective I've seen taught school groups at Almscliffe and Ilkly that make you look like angels and (although not quite as bad as them) you're also a lot better than what John Cook is describing (which if its true could close the clubs if it got back to the SU H&S folk). Why not go the full hog??

Finally, whats all this 'holier than thou' anti-top rope thing? For beginners on grit I marginally favour a mix with some in-situ top ropes...the key issues at Froggatt are wear of classics (esp cam placements) and general overcrowding of the areas with better climbs. Top-roping a few no star routes in the less busy sections can help with this and allow beginners to get more routes done.

In reply to Offwidth:

I greatly appreciate your considered and thorough response. I think a lot of the difficulty comes with the transient nature of university club committees. As I'm sure you're well aware but other people may not be the committees tend to be headed by 3rd year students (often the final year) and so by the time the new committee take over they don't have the guidance they should have and so they revert to what they know i.e. they imitate what happened when they joined. As a result certain trips become inherent to clubs, and on here the whole sins of the father idea takes over.

Having been on the MUMC trip for 5 years I have never seen an issue on the days I have been there and so it is hard to appreciate some people's concerns as the trip has always had a seemingly low impact on the crag environment on the day. I have however seen other smaller groups using crags and causing far more of a disturbance (through activities such as top-roping of popular routes). With the information Simon has provided on the fragility of the access agreement I expect the committee organising MUMC this year to leave behind a plan for next year to sample a different venue. Following your personal advice last year I think it was (or maybe the year before) I made sure we spread ourselves from Froggatt in the woods to Curbar and I would challenge anyone to confidently point out who at the crag was a uni club member based on anything other than their age.

The "holier than thou' anti-top rope thing" is the belief that top roping is not how the members tend to climb outside of club trips so why introduce people to a distorted view of climbing. Top roping has a place in group management and head-pointing but if you have the right ratios of experienced climbers then why monopolise a route for such an activity. Top roping no-star routes is not my personal idea of a fun day out on the grit.

In reply to Simon:

I may have missed this, but could you post a link to the Eastern Moors Partnership crag management plan?

It might be of some use.

In reply to Kipper and Simon:
I'd be really keen to see this plan too. The more information groups have about crags the better they can assess their impact.

In reply to melonmike: Sadly I cant be arsed to trawl over last years thread or the year befores... It has been interesting that this year even the BMC rep has made polite requests over the issues you put your fingers in your ears over.The two sides to this is one of mass club meets choosing unsuitable venues and the other side is to make a symapthetic choice of maybe splitting groups over different crags, not attempting to take such large numbers in one day and simply having some consideration for the other users whoever they may be rather than being greedy and trying to maximise the clubs revenue.

However I have to roll my eyes at the comment that you have never seen a problem in another of your posts... how about 2009 when there were three large uni trips with over 90 people congregated from roughly Valkyrie to Synopsis. Every route was taken.

The thing about the BMC is that it is made up of us, you know climbers and walkers, boulderers, Mountaineers. What they have is youth and age and experience and they make decisions based on lots of people having a say and coming up with what they think is a best course of action.

A club goes to Froggatt every year, they go there because they do. They dont risk assess with years of experience, they havent seen the path at the end get 2 foot deeper over the last 20 years. They just dont care, Its sad that you feel the way you do... Then again one day you will have been climbing as long as some of us and will remember back to this with embarassment.

In reply to Kipper: There is a link somewhere in the news section of the BMC site. Members who take an interest in such things read it when it was first published. I will try to find time tomorrow to find you the link. Maybe if your club is affiliated to the BMC you or another representative would like to attend a Peak area meeting. The next is at Maynard Arms on 21st November at 7:30. You get to know all sorts of interesting stuff about climbing in the area, from people who spend many hours of their lives working for the interests of climbers in the Peak.

In reply to johncook:

Ta. I was looking for the info on that meeting this morning. The venue was unconfirmed. Maynard Arms in Grindleford? Do we get dinner again?

In reply to muppetfilter:

If you had replied at the time and engaged in discussion as requested perhaps this episode need never have taken place. I recall asking for you to contact me directly to discuss the wisdom you have developed from so many years of climbing experience, unfortunately you ignored that so I wasn't able to benefit. A real shame.

You will notice that the words of the BMC rep have been taken under consideration, yours are far down the list of valued opinions unfortunately , given the nature of your previous input. I have tried to cover interpretation of the guidelines before and as I have hinted at I have seen these guidelines wildly contravened by very senior members of the BMC. Pending more information on the fragility of the access agreement at Froggatt an assessment will be made of alternative venues which are feasible to use. What else is it you are looking for?

There is no club profit on the trip. In 2009 there was one other group at the crag and they had in-situ top-ropes on the sunset slab area...I think you may be confusing trips, it must be very difficult to keep track, but I assure you that had nothing to do with MUMC.

I remember the path from walking around the peak over 10 years ago, I think 2 foot may be an exaggeration, don't you? In fact it is ridiculous.

I maintain that 10 small groups spread from Froggatt in the woods to the far end of Curbar is far less of an obvious impact than other group usage regularly seen around the peak and in the grand scheme of things is a drop in the ocean in terms of the total number of people visiting. It isn't ideal but it is essential for such clubs to exist, clubs which have a huge impact on the future of the climbing population. Other venues may prove suitable, I have discussed the issues with that above which I feel are fair, and hopefully next year's freshers trips will evoke less of a response.

The sensitivity of access to Froggatt is of the greatest concern so any information the BMC can provide on such matters would I'm sure be greatly appreciated.

In reply to Kipper:

It must be a secret, as there is no mention of any such thing anywhere on the BMC website. http://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/RAD/ViewCrag.aspx?id=587 This page has a link with information referring to the Crow access agreement in the most general way possible, and couldn't be less helpful with regards to group access to specific crags.

In reply to rothers: http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web...

Here is the initial consultation report. At no point is there any mention of the size of groups at the crag.

In reply to rothers: http://www.easternmoors.org.uk/what-we-do/stakeholder-consultation-and-docu... This access focus group report from 2011 makes no mention of any planned or current access restrictions based on group size. Please see section regarding current access restrictions. Still I search for any mention of prohibition.

In reply to rothers:

I think you are splitting hairs: no one mentioned any current prohibitions. The crag issues are overuse and overcrowding and hence the BMC on RAD included what they did for Froggatt. Simon is a very dedicated BMC rep who attends these meetings and knows the score and may be thinking about what we dont want in future documents. He was also a voice of warning for Eagle Tor where we can't climb now because too few listened. What is happening is the new leaseholders will be assessing the crag impact and some specific prohibitions might come out of that.

The issue for a Uni club is to consider whats most appropriate for their venue(s) and Manchester to me sort of fall at the last hurdle in an otherwise excellent demonstration of good practice. The physicist in me remembers my education in that its easy to improve further from good by recalling mistakes (even inadvertant ones) and not repeating them (unlike Peter Cooke: "I learnt from my mistakes: I can repeat the exactly")

Froggatt RAD copied again in case anyone missed it:

"Easy access and many classic routes have ensured Froggatt has remained very popular over the years. Unfortunately, this is resulting in many of the famous routes becoming polished and having worn protection slots. So, instead of repeating that classic for the nth time, why not spread the load and choose a different crag?

Be sensitive to other users: do not monopolize sections of the crag. All group leaders should familiarise themselves with BMC guidelines for group use, see here, http://www.thebmc.co.uk/Download.aspx?id=350 "

and from that:

Choosing a venue what to consider:

...Crag size and enviromental impact. Potential Conflict with other users....

September weekends is the busiest these crags get and Froggatt is often top of the busy list. So if 3 Manchester size clubs go, like they did in 2009, alongside all the averege normal punters, we have a problem on our hands (not especially due to Manchester that time but the extra traffic they generated didn't help; I'd also add in their defence for then that the specific crag environment discussions and RAD advice here now were not around in 2009).

In reply to melonmike:

Thanks for that reasoned response. Just a few points of advice from an middle aged academic:

Don't dismiss views made with passion: the points maybe should heve been more appropriately but they could contain useful stuff. Intelligent people should be assessing as dispassionately as they can, not throwing things away just because someone upset them.

It's not just your impact at Froggatt, its the impact of you and everyone else. Most sections of crags in the peak are quiet and hassle free on these busy weekends.

As someone who has climbed almost every route in the peak suitable for beginners I can assure you that routes with lots of stars are worth avoiding not just because they are busy. Sure, polish and beginners and queues dont mix well but many one and no star routes offer lots of genuine fun hassle free climbing. Some places I'd recommend are not even official routes: the Ramshaw back slabs next to Dangerous Crocodile Bouldering give some great padding top-ropes and the extra traffic would help clean them for solists (no gear but still currently a little too gritty for a solo at ones limit). Others are nicely situated next door to classics for the experienced club members (like the slabby routes 30m right of The Unconquerables).

In reply to Liam Brown: Sarnies and chips I believe, but they are good at the Maynard. The info is now on the Peak Area section of the BMC website, including the agenda.
Hope we see a lot of people there to back the BMC Area reps in their efforts to maintain climbing freedom for us all!

In reply to Offwidth:

I still tend to get really infuriated with the people who say they are old hands, and complaining basically about 2 things:

1) too much traffic at a crag

2) not being able to get on a route on a day

if they are such old hands at this game, why not let the new people try these crags which they've been to over and over, and they themselves can go to any of the places that they say the uni groups could be going to instead.

Most of the people who moan on here have the ability to go to other crags. I would love to be able to get out to other places, but with no car of my own, and few other students having them, I have to go to places with public transport, or follow club trips.
I WANT TO GO ELSEWHERE, YOU CAN YOU LUCKY GITS!

In reply to Ed Navigante:

1) Too much traffic at a crag can be a real access issue and if you are infuriated with this being pointed out you either have a very short temper or are not thinking straight.

2) I suspect most complainents are thinking of others, not themselves. I've never personaly been 'blocked' by a student club on a route, partly as I know these crags like the back of my hands (the clue is in my profile). However, I have been involved with many other visiting climbers with selective guides and less knowledge who have been blocked or other student groups who clashed (which is why I favour posting on the BMC freshers thread) and also the occasional angry fool trying to pick a fight with a perfectly well behaved club for the sake of it. Sometimes it's almost comedic: a friend of mine had to lead Telli once because some muppet thought teaching abseiling to his club in walking boots on a delicate route relying on pebbles was a good idea and wouldn't back down unless a lead attempt was made.

On some of the other points made above:

I'd be more than happy with mods deleting any replies to the BMC freshers thread (ie just limit the thread to announcements and pick up issues on another thread)

The moaning gits point is a cliche as there are a whole range of responses. Even with the moaners, there is no requirement to bite.

In reply to Offwidth:
I think rothers was pointing out that muppetfilter, in his argument as to why Imperial College had behaved with less consideration than they could, had cited something which Imperial College had no chance of having read. This seems unfair and unnecessary when he could have mentioned those parts of BMC guidelines which you have in your reply. These are clearly the relevent parts. Imperial seemed to have behaved very well regarding managing a large group, by having bouldering and routing over all of the escarpment. Similarly, they appeared well spread out on Sunday, although I appreciate people have questioned one members shouting and foul language.

I'm somewhat concerned that these debates on ukc might be viewed as sufficient engagement with university groups to advise their choices when it is felt they could have been better. I think a lot of the discussion is between ex-members of university clubs (e.g. melonmike), BMC volunteers, interested climbers reiterating BMC guidelines and other "interested" individuals.

I think these threads are unlikely involve more than one or two members of any university club committee, if that. In fact, many clubs seem not to want to use UKC at all, hence the demise of the university trip thread. Moreover, if three universities are turning up to Froggatt on a Saturday in October, as has appeared to have been the case this week, more engagement on access and conservation seems important.

This may have been unnecessary to say. However, if anyone thinks that, by raising their concerns on this forum, they are influencing the choices of every university club such that they avoid heavily used crags such as froggatt, when in large groups, then they appear to be wrong.

I definitely stated things you personally know already. Thanks for your considered replies throughout the thread. A couple of weeks ago I had a discussion about a venue for a day trip out of the new Moors guidebook. Probably 12-15 people. HVD-E2 leaders. Any thoughts?

In reply to GuitarGenius92:

Completely off topic of all this stuff above, but how did you get 50 students in 3 minibuses, plus pads?

In reply to Liam Brown:

Which month for OtM?

I'll try and have a chat with a few folk including Simon and Alan at the next Peak area meeting. If that's the genuine view of most student clubs the BMC and UKC probably need to do something. Would anyone have problems with a no reply, notification only, thread for freshers trips??

The BMC do lots of training events for student clubs and have lots of literature and a website, so posts here are certainly not anything like a priority but this is the most visited climbing site in the UK so I still think messages here will get through to many.

In reply to The Green Giant: we had a car as well plus roof racks, may have had 1 or 2 fewer after dropouts

In reply to Offwidth: you could prob get a private group on facebook going for bmc and each clubs committee members. cross check it with the website of each club. its alot of work but once it is set up each year it would provide a good forum for clubs to talk, with the input of the bmc minus the spam of ukc. assuming that they all have facebook.

i am not a club committe member but if people like this idea then i can set it up

In reply to itsThere:

This does sound like a good idea for general chat between the BMC and student clubs, but for any announcements/decisions generated from this I'd favour emails to club presidents (or via university AU's) as not everyone checks facebook regularly.

In reply to maria_thorpe: yes it was more for general chat. dont know if that would help/hinder clubs in splitting which crags they go to. or if that is a problem. a sticky thread on here with details of trips would also help but could get messy with the number of uni clubs in the uk. also the fact that uni clubs cant do everything on facebook and would need an email for the people not wanting to use facebook.

In reply to GuitarGenius92: I think just a sticky thread which clubs can post in and with a Moderator who could edit the top post and add their trip onto the thread so everyone can see. Nice and easy and clear to see, the hard bit would be making all of the universities aware of it...

In reply to James Malloch: ukc and the BMC might be able to help. NUS could pass an email on to all the students unions which might make it to the clubs. there is prob other ways

In reply to Offwidth:

Gah, stop being so right and reasonable

In reply to James Malloch:
the uni clubs will hopefully be members of the bmc and attending the student safety seminars (easy place to tell them about it)

In reply to GuitarGenius92: I hate to tell you this, but there are no mountains there, and you won't legally get 50 climbers and their kit into 3 minibuses!
Thanks for the heads up though.

In reply to Dave Stelmach:

I think the trip is long gone, but wouldn't 3 x 17 seaters do it?

In reply to GuitarGenius92:

How about people complementing the OP on the fact that his club (like, so far as I can tell, all University clubs) are willing to go to a lot of effort to introduce beginners to climbing? Something often not true of "grown-up" mountaineering clubs and certainly not true of all the whinging t****rs posting on this thread. So what if people had to queue for a few minutes to get into the route of their choice. If you want the crag to yourself go to Tajikistan, not the peak district on a sunny saturday.