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Compound fracture and ankle dislocation recovery?

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 Paul Sagar 29 May 2020

Long story short: due to a moment of very poor judgment after a series of mistakes, I have suffered a compound fracture and total dislocation of the left ankle. I had surgery last night, and the surgeon this morning thinks I will be able to walk again in 6 months time. 

Does anybody have any experience of this kind of ankle injury and a successful recovery to climbing? I did find a couple of old threads on here, but I’d be keen to hear directly from anybody who has been through this and what their experience was. 

(As you can imagine I am somewhat distraught by the turn of events. As much as some of you might like to give me a good telling off for having gone climbing at the current time, please save it for a few weeks’ down the line. Believe me, I wish I hadn’t gone climbing, too.)
 

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 climberchristy 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Sorry can't help with recovery advice but just wanted to say hope your recovery is as speedy as possible. Far from telling you off, I'd just sympathise. I'm out climbing too as are a lot of us and an accident can happen to any of us at any time. So, good luck with the recovery and chin up.

Cheers

Christy

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 climbercool 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar: oh no, this sucks! best of luck mate!

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 galpinos 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

No idea on recovery but......

> (As you can imagine I am somewhat distraught by the turn of events. As much as some of you might like to give me a good telling off for having gone climbing at the current time, please save it for a few weeks’ down the line. Believe me, I wish I hadn’t gone climbing, too.)

Don't beat yourself up. You made some decisions, things happened and now you've got to live with the consequences. It's done. I don't know you but from your posts, climbing is very important to you. Look forward, focus on getting your recovery and coming back stronger/in better shape. Good luck!

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 Martin Haworth 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Paul, I sympathise with you, it’s climbing and these things happen. Two years ago I suffered a bad compound ankle fracture and  I was told walking properly again would be a successful outcome, I was told to forget climbing and running. I was in an external fixator frame for 6 months, then a cast for 2 months.

I took my first steps to climbing again after a year, I still needed someone to carry my bag to the crag and I walked with a stick.

Now 2 years on I am back to where I was on sport climbs but have been a bit slower getting back to trad grades. I avoid long walk ins.

Don’t rush things, and always remember to focus on what you can do rather than what you can’t do.

 If you want more details just email me.


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 PaulJepson 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

That's really rough; hope it heals fast. With that sort of thing you tend to make a right mess of all the ligaments, tendons, etc. so you probably won't have a good idea on recovery times until it's all settled down. 

I remember a kid dislocated his foot at a gym I worked at and a surgeon who happened to be there to assist said it was lucky he had age on his side and even then it would be a result if he could walk after 6 months. 

OP Paul Sagar 29 May 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Thanks Martin that is very encouraging. It looks like your injury was worse than mine so it gives me hope that I may be OK in due course. One thing I know about myself is that I will not slack on the physio and I will do exactly as I’m told by the professionals!

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 Mr Lopez 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Couple of things. First off, don't skrimp on the physio. There's not a lot you can do about the bone, but it's all down to you what you do about retaining movement, muscle mass, tendon conditioning, bone density, etc. Losses you make now will affect your recovery and possibly cause other future problems, so get on with it as soon as you can.

The physio provided by the NHS will be woefully inadequate and starting too late. Ask your surgeon if he can recommend a private one and get him to write instructions for the physio at regular interval depending on your progress and needs. If he cannot recommend one find one yourself, but still get your surgeon to give the directions.

The other thing, try and get a second opinion, even if you trust your surgeon 100%. Ankle 'medicine' has moved a fair way in the last 10 years after being stagnant for a long time, and some doctors have not moved with it. There's 2 obvious camps out there. The 'rest for a year with the foot elevated' camp, and the 'start walking and using your foot as soon as you can bear the pain'. A second opinion early on might help reassure you re in the right path or open the possibility for a different one.

Anyway, it won't really affect your climbing much in the future. You'll just adapt if you have to and get horrible calf pump when you first resume. Take the time to get strong in a fingerboard and do one footed laps on a top-rope, and when you are out of it you might find your climbing will probably have improved

1
cb294 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Oh shit, how did you manage to do that?

No idea on recovery times, which are bound to be highly variable, but a couple of my friends had the same injury and went back to climbing, so don't give up!

Also, stick with the physio religiously!

CB

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In reply to Paul Sagar:

I had a terrible ankle and leg break 12 years ago. External fixator for 6 months. Started climbing soon after albeit with a lot of pain. I was off work for 14 months (firefighter). Back climbing now and improved my grades on both trad and sport. Long walk ins cause me pain and discomfort. Cloggy is about my limit, I put up with pain for great climbing!

You've got a long road ahead but I was told I would never even climb a ladder again and it was the worst break my surgeon had ever seen! Gulp! I can't run properly but I'm grateful I can still climb. The only move I can't do is a toe hook due to poor flexibility in the joint. 

Good luck with the rehab.

Graham

OP Paul Sagar 29 May 2020
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Thanks that is really helpful. I’ve had a recommendation for a London based ankle physio specialist who I am going to contact on Monday when I’m back home. I had hip surgery about 8 years ago for a congenital defect and I did the physio religiously and after 3 months I managed to do a triathalon - so I know the value of putting in those boring hours!

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OP Paul Sagar 29 May 2020
In reply to cb294:

I was climbing Tut's Anomalous (E1 5b) and mis-interpreted the guidebook instructions and traversed right too early into Clash of Arms (E4 6b). I actually put in three bomber pieces and began making the moves - which didn’t shock me because the day before I had my best ever day of sport climbing onsighting 6c+ and redpointing 7a and 7a+ so I didn’t have the proper reaction of “wait a minute this is not E1!” However it was tough so I took the lob - no worries, two good cams and a solid nut. 

But I then realised I had to be off route and my girlfriend and I realised there were pegs further up and to the left on the E1 line. What I should have done here is either climb the E4 (which Jess might not have been able to follow but I could have stripped on abseil) or lower back to the belay and either abandon a cam or try and get it later. Instead - it was hot, I was tired and thirsty, and rushing because the sun was coming round - I made the terrible decision to try and get back to the E1. So I took out my 3 bomber pieces and (I still can’t believe I did this) tried to aid through on an absolutely dreadful microcam in a shit pocket. I had one hand on the cam and one in a jug. I loaded the cam and it held, and so I committed fully to it. And then of course it blew, and I fell and hit the ledge below because my other pieces were too far down (although they did stop me going all the way to the bottom). I fell about 6 meters and landed directly on my left ankle, which basically exploded. 

looking back I’m so angry with myself. It was an unbelievably stupid thing to do. I even thought to myself earlier “if that cam blows you’ll hit that ledge and break your ankle”. But for some reason I tried to aid on it. I guess that’s just the nature of human error - sometimes one does stupid things for no good reason. 
 

Post edited at 16:18
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OP Paul Sagar 29 May 2020
In reply to Graham Westbrook:

Thanks Graham - that makes me feel positive about the future!

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 Yanis Nayu 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I don’t, no, but speedy recovery. 

cb294 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

That sounds terrible, I find knowing that I could have easily avoided an injury psychologically stressful. Don't beat yourself up about this, focus on the recovery instead, you are not the first one!

CB

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 Bacon Butty 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I trust you'll be making an extremely generous donation to the Derbyshire Mountain Rescue Team in these difficult times?

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OP Paul Sagar 29 May 2020
In reply to Taylor's Landlord:

I will!

Plans are already afoot in that regard. Those guys were amazing and I will be forever in their debt. I’ve sent them an email today to say thank you and I’ll be sending them a more tangible show of gratitude in due course. 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Sorry to hear about your ankle.

Back in 2013 I also had a severe tib & fib compound fracture, dislocation, rippy offy nearly losing a foot incident due to a series of poor judgements on my behalf. 

Have you got any metal work in? Was there any damage to the tendons? Have you got one of those wacky moon boots?

I was incredibly lucky and didn’t have any tendon damage, this gave for a speedy recovery as bone generally heals quicker than muscle/ tendons.

At the time the surgeon couldn’t give me a date of climbing return, but after being fitted with a moon boot and strictly non-weight bearing instructions I was back walking, working and climbing within 3 months. I think obeying the strict non-weight bearing really aided a quick recovery. My mother was also good at pummelling this advice into my stubborn self! Once I could bear weight  I did things like cycling to avoid impact but to help strengthen it. Also a bit of physio and slowly testing its movement.

As for metal work, I had 6 screws and a plate on the fibula (which have since been removed) and 2 on the tibia.

Since the incident I have made a complete recovery with full range of motion and flexibility. Just a little numbness of nerve damage where the bone popped out.

Obviously everybody is different but I hope this helps a bit. 

I thank an amazing surgeon, it’s wonderful what they can do! 

Good luck in your recovery

Post edited at 17:13
 nniff 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I dislocated my right ankle a bit over 10 years ago now.  On a mountain bike, off-line and heading for a big beech tree.  I decided the bike could fend for itself and I jumped off the back.  I caught the toes on the outside of my right foot and basically popped my foot  down, under and round to the inside.  When the dust settled and I reached down for my ankle, instead of my foot I put my hand on the bottom of my leg where my foot should have been.  It then snapped itself back into place and I said some very bad words.

It took about six months in total and I was told that I would have been better off with a break.  The ankle is a sliding joint, and mine doesn't slide as much as it should, for no apparent reason that can be seen on a scanner. If I flex my ankles forwards, bending my knees, my right stops before my left. It feels a bit stiffer overall, but I don't notice it at all on a daily basis

OP Paul Sagar 29 May 2020
In reply to Francescaparratt:

Thanks!

Your injury sounds very similar to mine. I don’t yet know about tendon and ligament damage but my surgeon is apparently one of the best foot and ankle specialists in the world so I’m hopeful - especially having read the accounts from everyone so far. Thank you all. 

OP Paul Sagar 29 May 2020
In reply to nniff:

Thanks - it’s great to hear all these positive stories. I really appreciate it guys. 

 richm74 29 May 2020

Every injury like this is going to different so I can only give you my experience. I dislocated my ankle in 2010 and broke both fibula and tibia (malleolus) and had the fibula plated with 8 screws, two pins in the tibia plus wire holding them to two more screws.

My tendons were all stretched too.  I was told that I wasn’t likely to be going running again and that arthritis was almost a certainty. So I got a different physio!

As others have said, you are going to have to stick to the exercises and I hope you have a positive outcome. I was lucky that I didn’t have any damage to the joint surface and my metal work doesn’t impinge on the joint.

I was top roping within about 3 months and leading a few months later after I got my head straight. The bones are stronger than before according to my surgeon but the tendons will never be quite the same again. Anyway, I’ve since run ultra marathons without any joint issues and no arthritis yet.

good luck with the recovery. At least you were having an adventure. I broke my ankle ice skating!

 supersteve 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Was also a similar height fall and a similar ‘explosion’ like injury.

Took a few days for the swelling to go down and then have a further diagnosis regarding the tendons/ muscle. Fixing and realigning the bone was the priority, as was getting it back inside/ infection control (I was outside for a while).

With any luck you’ll get a better insight to the extent of the damage in a few more days/ week or so.

Post edited at 18:35
 im off 29 May 2020
In reply to supersteve:

Jesus. Wish I didn't click on that🤢😂. Respect.

Good luck Paul. Shit happens.

In reply to supersteve:

Ooh, if we’re sharing gross ankles, here’s mine; 

DO NOT CLICK IF SQUEEMISH

https://www.instagram.com/p/YtRSAZHAzJ/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Rigid Raider 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Bad luck. I dislocated my ankle in my 20s at the Sobell Centre wall and it bloody hurt, but I think I recovered within a month or two. Same as the poster above, the foot was 90 degrees in the wrong direction, I tried to move it, it popped back and I almost fainted with the pain. No thanks to the other climbers at the wall who just gawped at me and didn't even help me hop to a phone in agony to order a taxi to A&E.

Anyway after a recent clavicle break, paracetamol is your friend. 1 gm every 6 hours and keep a note by the bed so you don't miss a dose and let the level drop.

 supersteve 29 May 2020
In reply to Francescaparratt:

You win. LoL 

 supersteve 29 May 2020
In reply to im off:

First thing I did was send a picture to my mates! Oddly it didn't hurt, until I tried to push it straight...

In reply to supersteve:

I saw the blood and the foot facing the wrong way but was wearing socks and didn’t really put two and two together. 

I’m so glad the surgeon took the picture, although my mum didn’t appreciate my brother showing her it when I was stuck in the hospital in the states!

OP Paul Sagar 29 May 2020
In reply to supersteve:

Wow yours was even more bent than mine was! thanks that makes me feel confident about the future!

OP Paul Sagar 29 May 2020
In reply to Francescaparratt:

Oh my god yours is so much worse than mine!!!

 walts4 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Thanks - it’s great to hear all these positive stories. I really appreciate it guys. 


Positivity goes a long way to be honest when something like this occurs.

Exploded my tib & fib the wrong age > 50 & was told by the surgeon that id ski ok, but never run or climb to the same standard as before, if at all. I obviously disbelieved him & told him so.

Needless to say, running & climbing again to the same grades & above after a lot of  recovery effort especially training my ankle to flex properly & learning to walk again on a running machine.

I'm back in the mountains having long days both on rock & alpinism with no discomfort or undue pain, just be prepared to listen to your body & take some time out when necessary but enjoy the rehab in the recovery process.

Also good advice from mr lopez, but my main form of rehab was actually walking uphill on a tread mill.

 abr1966 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Sorry to hear that Paul....from your description of the fall I bet we've all been in similar scenarios...luck or bad luck just happens.

My mate had a similar injury to yours...I think it depends if its a tib or fib that is fractured but he was about 6 months before he was back properly.

As you say do what the medics and physios advise....don't rush it as doing so can sometimes prolong it.

I fell in the first week of a 3 month Alps trip once. I had hitched over, had very little money and no health insurance. I'd like to say it was some dramatic fall on a classic route but it was falling over whilst pi**ed in Cham. I'd fractured my femur but didn't get any help...spent the next week feverish and another 3-4 weeks drinking to manage the discomfort.

After a while I was moving again and managed a bit of climbing by the end of the trip....I hadn't realised id fractured it as I didn't go to the hospital but it has caused me no end of problems since. It messed my knee articulation up and led to other problems.....always take the medics advice and think of long term recovery!

Best wishes, hope your girlfriend is ok too....must have been an event for her I'm sure!

Post edited at 19:36
OP Paul Sagar 29 May 2020
In reply to abr1966:

To her credit she was an absolute pro. For example she forbade me from trying to abseil to the ground before we called the emergency services, and made me stay at the belay and wait for the MRT, thus not mangling my foot in new ways whilst probably ballsing up the descent and killing myself! Having her there staying calm throughout was a godsend. I probably should have listened more when she told me to stop screaming at the MRT to please please please lower me a bottle of water and some morphine...but I yes, I’m grateful she was there with me. 

Post edited at 20:26
 abr1966 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Top lass!!

 Pbob 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Paul - I suffered a very similar injury in my twenties (left ankle dislocated and broken in at least 8 places - there were too many pieces to count). I did it playing five-a-side football ironically just after returning from a trip to Sheigra. I was never a good climber but enjoyed it a lot and getting into the mountains was pretty much the focus of my life. When it happened I was told that I'd never walk without a limp. The emergency care I got was really good but the follow up was pretty awful and as a result I was convinced that my days in the hills were gone forever. What I did do, and this is my best advice to you, is focus on what I could do, not what I couldn't. I took up some other sports like sailing and diving where I could participate without handicap. I learned to drive and bought a car. I took a degree in Geology with the OU as a way of keeping in touch with the mountains. I can't say I didn't miss getting into the mountains and in the few years after the break I did have some pretty low times, but for the most part I was determined not to let it get the better of me. In the following decade I had a lot of adventures (albeit of a different kind). At one point about 7 years ago I found myself idly standing on my tip-toes - something I'd never thought I'd be able to do. That gave me the idea to try myself climbing again. I'm still not a good climber but I am climbing and Munro bagging again. Ok the climbs are on the very easy side and primarily local crags rather than the Alps, the thrill is still there. I think that losing climbing for a decade gave me back the ability to climb for the sheer joy of it, rather than the competitive spiral I was in before the break. This might sound like a trite thing to say (helped by a Friday night beer or two) but I honestly think that the injury was the making of me.

My condition at the moment - looking forward to a sunny day at Scugdale as soon as the lockdown let's me. I'm sure if I put my mind to it, I'm physically able to get fit and be a reasonable climber, but I'm a family man now and happy just to enjoy occasional easy cragging.

My regrets - 1) not challenging the general resignation in my doctors that I would never be able to enjoy climbing again 2) not persevering with the physio (find a good one - best money you'll spend) 3) not realising sooner how much I'd recovered.

My advice - Stay positive and take it as a challenge. I hope your recovery is a bit quicker than mine was, and if you've got good medical care it should be. In any case, store your rack well or it'll be rusty when you want to use it again.

Happy to take a PM if you want more slightly self-righteous rambling.

 druss 29 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Long story short: due to a moment of very poor judgment after a series of mistakes, I have suffered a compound fracture and total dislocation of the left ankle. I had surgery last night, and the surgeon this morning thinks I will be able to walk again in 6 months time. 

> Does anybody have any experience of this kind of ankle injury and a successful recovery to climbing? I did find a couple of old threads on here, but I’d be keen to hear directly from anybody who has been through this and what their experience was. 

> (As you can imagine I am somewhat distraught by the turn of events. As much as some of you might like to give me a good telling off for having gone climbing at the current time, please save it for a few weeks’ down the line. Believe me, I wish I hadn’t gone climbing, too.)


Sorry to hear.  Only person I can think of is Dave MacLeod as he has had multiple ankle injuries but also look at the strength focused community.  Possibly a good place to start the Starting Strength forum https://startingstrength.com/resources/forum/forum181/?s=442b48fba4561141cf...

There's Natasha Barnes too.  She's US based but I think has content out there focused on rehab.

Good luck!
 

 nikoid 30 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Hans Florine did something similar to you - gear ripped and hit a ledge on El Cap so it can happen to anyone. He's a pretty positive guy, there are accounts of his accident and recovery if you google him. Might help you!

OP Paul Sagar 30 May 2020
In reply to nikoid:

Thanks, just read the article in Rock and Ice which was very good on this.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Hi Paul, that’s sound awful. I hope you heal fast!

No where near as dramatic as your injury, but I damaged my ankle badly (and broke my leg in the process) two winters ago. 

Once out of plaster I was religious with physio. I can now run, climb, boulder, bike, including very long hill days, without issue.

My advice is: do your physio (and then do it again and again). 
 

 DrJP 30 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Feeling for you dude. I broke my wrist climbing a V2 on Thursday. My feet were as high as my knee so not exactly high ball.. I fell back down to the mat as I have done for years and my bum hit the end, instinct was to put my arm out to stop me. Wrist just was at the wrong angle. Snap! Nothing on your injury but everything can change in a split second.

Just forget 2020.. get psyched for 21. 

 Swirly 30 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Hey mate, really sorry to hear this. I've not done it myself so can't give any direct advice but I had a partner do similar (he managed to break the other one and his wrist at the same time). He was climbing again in 11 months and in the Alps after 26 (partially time of year related, his accident was at Easter. I guess it is incredibly variable but wanted to let you know full recovery is possible: he was at risk of losing his foot but a very insistent MRT doctor made sure he went straight into surgery.

Take care and heal well.

Chris

OP Paul Sagar 30 May 2020
In reply to Swirly:

Thanks Chris - I was really lucky in that one of MRT fought really hard to get me into Sheffield hospital, where I received amazing treatment.

I feel humbled, and quite embarrassed actually, at how many people helped rescue me and put me back together in the 24 hours after the accident. When the world seems to be going to shit everywhere, it was deeply moving to be reminded that human beings can also be wonderful to each other. If I ever live anywhere that there is a local MRT, I will for sure become a volunteer (not much call for it in London alas!)

 AJM 30 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

No useful input, but best wishes for a speedy recovery - and make sure you take the opportunity to come out of it with the worlds strongest fingers and upper body! 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

If you’re inspired by the mountain rescue; why don’t you start off by doing something like a wilderness first aid course? Just by having the knowledge and skill set you’d be putting yourself out there as really great resource if you were to come across any incidents at crags or anywhere in the future.

It sounds like your girlfriend kept a cool head, but maybe you could do a course together to have the confidence to deal with any situations if you were to have any in the future (hopefully not of course)!

OP Paul Sagar 30 May 2020
In reply to Francescaparratt:

Yes, the irony is that literally the day before we were chatting and said as soon as the gyms were open again we would do a self rescue course together (I actually know some of the stuff already, but a refresher will be useful anyway and you can always learn more).

Another irony is that we were supposed to be on a Plas-y-Brenin course this very weekend in preparation for the alps, which would have included a lot of self-help stuff but, well, 2020 be 2020. 

Still, all the more reason to get (re)trained up when it’s possible to do so again. 
 

Post edited at 18:31
 walts4 30 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Thanks Chris - I was really lucky in that one of MRT fought really hard to get me into Sheffield hospital, where I received amazing treatment.

If your in the Northern General & you get the same consultant/surgeon as I did, your in good hands.

OP Paul Sagar 30 May 2020
In reply to walts4:

Yes the team there were excellent and apparently my surgeon is one of the best in the world. I’ll receive future treatment at Whipps Cross in London where the orthopaedic people are also apparently very good. The NHS really is just an incredible institution - I’ve done the clapping and the gratitude in the abstract these past 3 months but seeing it up close and personal has blown me away. 

1
OP Paul Sagar 30 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

If that “dislike” is for me using the NHS at this time...Northern General was empty yesterday. Literally wards and wards of empty beds. The nurses kept coming in to chat with me because they were bored; one even said it was nice just to do good old fashioned nursing again. I overheard another say they had 4 patients per nurse on Friday, which she described as unbelievable. All of the staff at the hospital were lovely to me and when I kept apologising for being there during the pandemic they laughed and said the peak was weeks ago and being there is what they are there for. 
 

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 pec 30 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

No dislocation but severe compound fracture in my case, the talus punched up an inch between the tib and fib and the bottom of the tibia clean snapped off.

You will climb again but probably not run (unless you're being chased). It will be a long time. I was on crutches for 6 months and started climbing straight after that though still used them for crag approaches at first. Didn't lead that first season, just seconded. The ankle actually continued to get noticeably stronger for about 3 years after that before I could say it was back to normal.

You will also get arthritis in the joint sooner or later. After about 12 years it started going downhill quite badly and when lots of ibuprofen and steroid injections were not enough I had to have it fused 15 years after the break. Another 6 months on crutches but now it's much better. I climb rock, winter and alpine as hard as I ever did before and even ski with a modified boot.

In summary, a badly broken ankle doesn't just get better and never cause any problems again but you don't have to let it stop you doing stuff.

Good luck.

 Michael Hood 31 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Sounds nasty and best wishes for your complete and speedy recovery.

Can't help you with the injury but I can empathise with how you got there. Many years ago I had a much simpler injury (simple ankle break) after basically doing the same thing - retreating but taking out the gear rather than just leaving something there and then worrying about whether/how to get it back (I appreciate that your retreat was of a more lateral nature).

We are to some extent conditioned in our climbing to not leave gear in the rock. I can quickly think of 2 reasons, there are no doubt several more: 1) Don't want to litter the rock, 2) The cost of replacing abandoned gear. When we're in unusual or stressed situations, our prioritisation/thinking often goes out of the window.

Of course in hindsight it's easy to see the flaws (which you'll probably already have done): 1) retrieve it (or abandon it) after sorting yourself out safely, 2) The gear costs lots less than the consequences of what ultimately happened.

So my advice to everyone out there would be: if you have to retreat, keep yourself as safe as possible, get to the top or back to the bottom. Only then worry about how and whether to retrieve gear.

Once again, speedy recovery.

OP Paul Sagar 31 May 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

Yep, that covers a lot of it. £50 for a new cam seems like a bloody bargain right now...

 Tom Briggs 31 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Try not to beat yourself up. I messed up 7 years ago and was lucky to escape with with a badly fractured calcanium (metal cage in there holding it all together).

My wife smashed her ankle (dislocation and fracture of the talus bone, the one with the poor blood supply).

Apart from less mobility in the joint I now fell run, have run mountain ultras and can still do big mountain days carrying 20Kg. I climb just as well. She climbs just as well but only runs short distances and feels it the next day.

Chances are you’ll recover and adapt to the extent that it won’t stop you doing anything you want to do. No doubt we’ll all have arthritis down the line.

Hammer the physio early on as others have said and appreciate it’s a long process of recovery. I could climb pretty well within 6 months but it took a couple of years to be more or less recovered as much as it was going to be.

Really try not to beat yourself up as we all make mistakes. On a positive you may well have helped yourself from not making a bigger mistake.

 MarkH55 31 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Hi Paul, a friend was hit off his bike by a car a couple of years ago and ended up with a tib and fib compound fracture and external fixator.  He was very active before (climbing/mountaineering/mtb/road/kayak) and has had a way of getting away with things that would break most people.  Add to this an extremely competitive nature and the fact that he's a vet so he has a good medical understanding of fixators etc.

He pushed his re-hab too quickly, was riding a mtb within a few months of being fixated and began walking longer and longer distances in some kind of step counter challenge.  Needless to say, things ended badly, he re-broke his tib within weeks of getting out of his fixator but didn't go back to his surgeon for some time.

He was re-fixated and introduced to a guy who'd followed a similar path, had a second fixation followed by a lower leg amputation when the second fixation didn't work.  Needless to say my mate calmed down a bit and heeded advice second time round.

He's now a year out of his second fixator and doing everything he wants to in terms of climbing/riding etc.

You need to accept that it will take time for you to heal from this and shortcuts don't work.  Make sure you get a physio that understands your exceptions in terms of recovery and what kind of activities you want to get back to doing.  What your diet/weight now that you're activity levels will be reduced.

Best of luck, you will get there

 Toby_W 31 May 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Do as the doctors tell you, if they say keep weight off it do etc etc.

As others have mentioned Doctors can sometimes be reserved in their positivity on these things, they deal with everyday overweight non sporty people who may find helping themselves recover a challenge.  You are not this, you seek out challenge.

Then, physio, physio, physio, treat it like a climbing project, marathon training or like your life depended on it but.. don’t then do too much too soon though, physio will guide you.

i think there is one picture in my gallery of some of my metalwork.

best of luck.

Toby.

oh, it also helps being competitive and sharing an office with a french guy who tells you how  the didn’t give him crutches once the plaster came off and how at every stage he healed better than you.  He meant well and was a lovely guy mind.

Post edited at 13:35
OP Paul Sagar 31 May 2020

Thanks all. It’s great to hear so much positivity. I re-read the psychological section of Dave Macleod’s Make or Break today and it is very helpful.

I’m trying to take to heart his main points, which are to accept what has happened has happened and cannot be changed, but also to find those things that I can control and can work on so as not to spiral into a mindset of helplessness that will leave me feeling miserable.
 

So as people have said, my medium-term climbing project now is to get fit for climbing again. Long term...well my goal route for the year was to climb Resurrection (E4 6a) on-sight. Clearly that isn’t going to happen this year. But if I can get back to the standard I’d achieved last Wednesday, then why not. Until then, I’m looking into private ankle physio (luckily I have savings and the day dream of buying a van was never realistic anyway!) and looking forward to getting really strong on the hang-board while maintaining the good habits around mobility and stretching I developed over lockdown. 2020 is just a pig of a year - but there’ll be other years. 

2
J1234 01 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Hi,

sounds nasty, hope it gets better soon. I think its really helpful that you have posted this thread, accidents so often happen, yet people never actually find out what happened, yet your full account can help us all learn from your errors. The only bit that's puzzling me is that you appear to live in London, yet you seem to have spent a couple of days climbing in Dorset, which seems a long way from London, then a few days around Buxton area, which seems a long way from London, how are you doing this?

12
 tehmarks 01 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I'll echo what everyone has said about sticking with the physio. I broke my leg a few years ago, and through being lax with physio my left ankle is now permanently a bit stiffer and less mobile than my right. Not at all a problem in the grand scheme of things - but it could have so easily been avoided. You don't realise until you do it and recover from it that breaking even 'just' a bone, mid-shaft, affects far more than just the bone.

It's also worth considering whether your surgeon, doctor and physio truy understand what you consider a successful recovery. I think I recovered as well as I did from my own less complicated break because I'm fiercely stubborn and push myself constantly; even on crutches I was going for a good walk every day, being very driven with pushing partial weight-bearing to the limit, pushing fully weight-bearing to the limit, and ultimately I was back in the Alps wearing crampons within four months of the accident, and walked the West Highland Way fully self-sufficiently within six months. Take that with a large pinch of salt because I'm not a doctor, but I suspect tht if I'd been content to recover in a more sedentary manner then recovery would have been more protracted and ultimately not to the same level as it has been. You know better than anyone - medical professionals included - how your body is reacting to what you're doing. Listen to it and yourself just as much as you listen to the medics.

No telling off needed - you 100% have my empathy and empathy only. Wishing you the most straightforward and speediest of recoveries.

 tehmarks 01 Jun 2020
In reply to J1234:

Is this really the time or the place?

12
OP Paul Sagar 01 Jun 2020
In reply to J1234:

By driving. The regulations state we can drive unlimited distance for exercise. At the moment, roads being very quiet and no road works, it takes about 2hrs 45 mins to get to Dorset or the Peak from our flat in London. We were doing two-day trips, opting to sleep in the van on the side of the road rather than driving back the same day. As we took food etc with us and weren't using e.g. campsites, hostels, etc, there didn't seem to be any difference between going for one day or two. Indeed, arguably it was safer to drive only 2hrs45 a day rather than 5hrs 30 a day - by breaking it up we were heading home earlier on the second day, doing the drive less tired etc.

I accept that strictly speaking this wasn't within the regulations if you interpret sleeping in a Renault Kangoo on the side of the road as 'staying somewhere other than your primary residence'. But as I say, we judged that it was not unreasonable - and indeed was perhaps more reasonable - to do so.  

21
OP Paul Sagar 01 Jun 2020
In reply to J1234:

FWIW, the reason the accident happened on Thursday was because we decided to climb Saturday-Sunday when the weather was poorer and so the south Peak was likely to be less busy, and then work on the sunny Bank holiday Monday when it would be busy again, then head up later in the week when it would be quieter. With the exception of one day in the past two weeks, I've climbed exclusively with my girlfriend, who I share a flat with already. I really don't think us sleeping in the van was an egregious violation of the spirit of the lockdown rules. At least, I certainly hope it wasn't - we were trying to do things responsibly.

17
J1234 01 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Thsts great news, I shall be off camping in my van and I assume will everyone else, now that you have given it the OK. It's great we have you along to show us how thick we all are.

Actiually if you had even a touch of intelligence, you would have hidden your logbook.

Hope the ankle heals soon and you make a full recovery, truly do, I wish what has happened to you on no one.

11
OP Paul Sagar 01 Jun 2020
In reply to J1234:

After spending 8 weeks in a one bedroom flat, I'm sorry that my desire to be outdoors for a couple of days at a time, doing what I love, meant that my judgement over what is and isn't responsible didn't align precisely with yours. 

If it's any consolation to you, I'm now going to be spending 12 weeks in a one bedroom flat, not doing any of what I love, and not knowing if I'll ever be able to do it again.

22
 Thirdi 01 Jun 2020
In reply to galpinos:

>I don't know you but from your posts, climbing is very important to you

😂😂 you think on a climbing forum? 

 seankenny 06 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> After spending 8 weeks in a one bedroom flat, I'm sorry that my desire to be outdoors for a couple of days at a time, doing what I love, meant that my judgement over what is and isn't responsible didn't align precisely with yours. 

Obviously I have every sympathy for your accident and hope you have a successful rehab. 

Howver... the above is not an excuse. I also live in a one bedroom flat in London, so I know what it's like. I haven't been on any overnight trips since February which is very boring, but there are worse things to suffer in a pandemic.

3
 bensilvestre 06 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Rubbish Paul. For what it's worth i had surgery on my foot after dislocating my peroneal tendon (torn ligaments) in Nov, no bone damage so not as bad as you but I was pretty down about it at first. Thankfully I did all the physio I could manage and I made a full recovery 5 months on. Running and climbing again and I only notice a bit of tightness when I crouch. Stay optimistic and exercise it properly when the time comes and you should hopefully be fine

OP Paul Sagar 06 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

My actions did nothing to endanger anybody. Sleeping in a van instead of driving home tired on the motorway in no meaningful way endangered anybody, and only happened once the lockdown had been eased. Whilst against the letter of the rules, it was not against their spirit. I do find it odd that on a rock climbing forum people seem oh so keen to tell me off for breaking the rules imposed by a central authority. Sorry but didn’t climbing once upon a time have something to do with making your own judgments for yourself and decided not to always follow the rules when you judged it was acceptable not to do so? Maybe it’s just me, but somehow I can’t see Don Whillans in the 1960s, or Jerry Moffat in the 1980s, having tut-tutted at my naughtiness. Get a grip - rules are instruments for brining certain outcomes about. In this case, my minor breaking of the rules in no sane way affected the outcomes for the worse. So I can do without the telling off.

oh and I am pretty sure that virtually nobody can honestly say they stuck 100% to the rules at all times in every single way over the past 10 weeks. Anybody who does is almost certainly deluded. The sorts of people who claim “I never broke a law in my life!” but who regularly speed every time they are on the motorway - they just discount that because to them it doesn’t feel like it should be illegal or whatever. Let he who is without sin, etc. Very few actually are. 

Post edited at 15:04
19
OP Paul Sagar 06 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

Perhaps more pertinently: did it feel good, that warm fuzzy glow you got when you told me off? 

15
OP Paul Sagar 06 Jun 2020
In reply to bensilvestre:

Thanks Ben! Initial discussion at the hospital was very positive so I’m optimistic for recovery. Tbh the bone damage (so long as there is no cartilage damage) won’t be an issue to recovery as the breaks were clean - the bigger obstacle is the ligament and tendon damage from the dislocation, so fingers crossed my story will be like yours!

 seankenny 06 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Perhaps more pertinently: did it feel good, that warm fuzzy glow you got when you told me off? 

Look around on some climbing forums and you’ll realise that nothing  about coronavirus gives me a warm and fuzzy glow.

I merely pointed out that your excuse was not so great. I don’t feel the need to rehash arguments about the importance of collective endeavour in battling the virus, or that it is easier for everyone to keep the rules when everyone does so.

I also find evocations to Whillans somewhat puzzling. He was so of the spirit of climbing that no one invited him on trips and he squandered his incredible talents. 
 

I clearly also wish you a speedy return to climbing! 

Post edited at 15:29
3
 JimHolmes69 06 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

You’ll be ok. It takes 6 months to get over a broken bone in your 50’s. My wrist has taken this long and I have just stopped thinking about it. Focus on what you can do to keep you sane and try hard to keep the weight off and stretch and you will be soon at it.

We keep to the old adage. If the car is broken pay to get it fixed. We are no different, pay to get yourself fixed. Money well spent on a physiotherapist when to are able to get some movement back.

Good luck and all the best,

Jim

 mbh 06 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

My sympathies.

In her mid fifties my wife fell off her bike on ice 30 months ago and badly fractured her ankle. She had two operations on it and was in hospital for a week.

The consultant was pretty clear. He said she should do what he said or things wouldn't work out. He also said she would only ever get back 80% of the mobility she had had in her ankle.

She did all the bed rest he demanded then the physio he suggested, an after that took advantage of the cheap rates her condition afforded her at our local leisure centre and went to the gym or did swimming every day for months. 

I don't remember the whole history of it now, but she kept going and this far on she is going for a five mile walk every day and by at least a year ago we were doing coast path walks and easy climbs at Bosigran.

The only thing she can't do is bring herself to get on a bike again, or run.

Best wishes for your recovery.

 bensilvestre 07 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Fwiw, I think my recovery was also greatly improved by doing a lot of upper body exercise during my downtime. Training can stimulate recovery throughout the whole body, especially more general exercises which use large muscle groups. Large compound exercises (such as deadlifting which you obviously won't be doing for quite a while) trigger a further hormonal reaction which aids recovery throughout. When my ankle felt ready (I could walk fairly well but still a long way from running) I started carefully deadlifting and recovery noticeably shot through the roof.

I've also seen interesting research which I cba to dig out now suggesting that a training stimulus in the opposite limb can slow down the degredation and even improve tissue function in injured limbs. So training your right leg can stop your left leg from degrading as much for example. Apparently some athletes are encouraged to do this when they sustain injuries

1
OP Paul Sagar 07 Jun 2020
In reply to bensilvestre:

Thanks, that's good to hear. This Friday I exit the "two weeks of elevation to reduce swelling" period, and although it's still strict non-weighting for the next 4 weeks, I'm going to start up my strength exercises again: hangboard, TRX, weighted pull-ups, press-ups, core, etc. The routine I did in lockdown actually saw me come out a considerably better climber than I went in, for the brief 2 week window I got to climb. It's a cliche, but if I get super strong whilst waiting for the ankle to heal then once I get my endurance back up in line later on, I could actually benefit long-term (not least as raw power and strength have always been weaknesses for me, usually relying on endurance to get me through).

 steveb2006 07 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Broke my ankle fairly badly in a fall of about 20' feet in 2005. I was able to start seconding again after about 10 weeks and leading again after 4 months. Ive never regained full movement in it and due to the impact damaging the joint linings have arthritis in it. I dont find this affects climbing now - but am more nervous about falling on it so have become less bold.

Have had to pack in running but can walk 10 miles plus with ibuprofen. Hope this helps and good luck with the recovery.

Steve

 LeeWood 07 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I have no knowledge of this injury - but my condolences - this is  a unfortunate and regrettable incident - esp after so much lockdown inactivity and anticipation .

Maybe you can turn it round working on upper body strength with a hangboard. 

OP Paul Sagar 07 Jun 2020
In reply to steveb2006:

That is encouraging, thanks Steve! 

 bensilvestre 07 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

That's basically the attitude I went into my injury with. My fingers are around 20% stronger than pre injury but I'm yet to test the gains in the field, as it were. Good luck with it

OP Paul Sagar 07 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

My point was really just: since when has climbing been about following all the rules? Isn’t it a bit weird for climbers, of all people, to insist with tutting disdain, that other climber follow all the rules, just because, even when breaking them causes no harm? 

13
 seankenny 07 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> My point was really just: since when has climbing been about following all the rules? Isn’t it a bit weird for climbers, of all people, to insist with tutting disdain, that other climber follow all the rules, just because, even when breaking them causes no harm? 

Well, this has nothing to do with climbing, does it? (Tho climbers are obviously as conformist and norm-following as any other group, witness the number of bolts on Stanage and the way we all wear the same clothes.) It’s about taking overnight trips when we are not supposed to.

You essentially pulled a Cummings: decided that you could ignore the rules around a pandemic and that your judgement was the only thing that counted. 

4
 Andy Clarke 07 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> My point was really just: since when has climbing been about following all the rules? 

I also found all the tutting weird at first. I still like to cling to the myth that climbing has a bit of counter-culture in its DNA. But on the other hand, ethics policing is generally pursued with great enthusiasm, and much debate is generated around how many tuts can dance on the head of a pin. 

 Misha 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

Totally agree and would add one more point - never lower off a single piece. A mate of mine did that off an in situ wire in winter after going the wrong way on a pitch. Next thing he knew, he took a 20m fall but amazingly the only damage was to his rucksack. The crab was still on the rope so either the wire broke or it ripped and then got knocked out of the crab in the fall (possible but unlikely). They bailed by lowering off the belay, this time leaving behind three wires equalised with tat. I happened to do the same route later that week and picked up the kit.

You wouldn't belay off a single piece (unless it's a massive thread or a big tree etc), so don't lower off a single piece either, even if it seems bomber. Get another piece in, equalise them with a powerpoint (or clip a rope into each one as long as both ropes are tight before lowering) and proceed cautiously. Means more gear left behind but, as you say, safety comes first. As for littering the crags, frankly, who cares in an emergency? Someone else will do the route and pick it up.

1
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

If only one's brain could always be relied on to work so rationally when the emergency is happening! I found out mine couldn't!

OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

Well, with these differences

1) I didn't write the lockdown rules

2) I waited until the easing period (I observed the lockdown rules pretty religiously before that)

3) I didn't have symptoms of the virus

4) Rather than taking extra trips (e.g. Barnard Castle), I extended single trips through a process of what is, if you think about it, self-isolation

5) Whereas infected symptomatic Dom did things that were likely to spread the infection, sleeping in a van with my partner who was the only person I'd been in contact with all day could not possibly spread the infection, not least as we were sticking to the same local areas each day (not driving 45 minutes to test our eyesight etc)

6) Whereas Cummings broke both the letter and the spirit of the regulations, we (taking our own food, keeping social distance rules regarding any others we came into contact with etc), broke the strict letter but observed the spirit because sleeping in a van does not spread Covid19.

Look, I understand why the rule about staying only at primary residences is there: it's to stop a mass exodus of rich people from cities like London to rural areas where they have second homes, and thus to also stop a spike in transmissions. As campsites, hotels, etc, are all still legally closed, and wild camping is illegal anyway, normal tourist activities are likewise controlled as a potential vector of transmission. For obvious reasons, the rule has to be a blanket one when it's issued by government, because it has to work at a macro level. Given how small a fraction of the population that possesses a vehicle they can sleep overnight in is, and given the confusion and cry of unfairness that would (understandably) go out if the government said "but camper vans are OK" (plus the incentives this would suddenly create for people to improvise campers), of course the rule is as it is. But this doesn't change the fact that a handful of climbers sleeping in their vans on the side of the road to extent a socially-distanced day trip into a two-day trip is not undermining the pandemic response efforts

So yes, I judged that we could be an exception to the rule. Why? Because one-size-fits-all rules don't, in fact, fit all. I used my judgement to make call that what we did was not irresponsible (whereas given 1-6 above, plus more I could mention, what Cummings did was irresponsible). Now you may disagree - but it's not obvious that I'm wrong here. Nor am I stupid, as SteveX seems to think. What I find surprising is the number of climbers, on a climbing forum, whose default seems to be "I must simply do whatever the rules say". I'd expect that from an army of bureaucrats, but rock climbers​​​​​​​?

24
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Andy Clarke:

I also suspect that partly there is a generational bias to older climbers on these forums (a remarkable number of them, actually, self-confessed ex-climbers) and most of us just become more conformist and small-c conservative as we get older. I don't have proof of this re the demographic, it's just a hunch based on the fact a message board forum is soooooo early 00s and don't the yoof have the tiktok to distract them?

Post edited at 09:10
16
baron 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

There are something like 550,000 caravans and 225,000 motor homes in the U.K. These vehicle users could all claim to be self sufficient and no threat to others.

Many of their owners are desperate to get out and use their vehicles.

They haven’t because the rules say that they shouldn’t.

What happens if they all adopt your approach?
Hope your injury heals quickly.

1
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to baron:

Those caravans and motorhomes need (or at the very least, are heavily reliant upon) caravan parks in order for their vehicles to be useable, and most of the owners of those vehicles - we can be pretty sure - won't even consider using their vehicles until those parks re-open.

So we can be pretty sure that your scenario of a quarter of a million people pitching up on the side of the road in the National Parks is not going to happen. Also most of those people won't want to travel anyway because the things they want to use when they get to their usual destinations - pubs, restaurants, cafes, museums, whatever - are all closed.

There is a rather big difference between dossing out of the back of a Renault Kangoo near Cratfcliffe on a random Wednesday night, and the industry that you are alluding to. So again, I don't think what happened here is that The Great British Public were all good and moral and selflessly refusing to use their caravans and campers - or else, how do you explain the hordes turning up to Lulworth Cove? Are mobile home and caravan users somehow all just much more decent than the population at large? No. It's that the systemic structure of incentives is such that most of those people will not be using their vehicles because they don't see the point at the moment. If you're a climber, however, it looks different. But the number of climbers with vehicles they can sleep in unobtrusively on the side of a quiet country lane is, considered at a macro level, negligible. 

22
 Offwidth 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Can you please stop digging. You clearly broke the rules, you took risks at levels others are avoiding. You then admit it publicly online and argue about it. If everyone did what you did (van or bivi) the reputation of climbers could have taken a real hit with the local residents and police.  The impact was only low because nearly everyone else in your position chose not to be a kn*b. Really sorry to hear about your bad luck and get well soon.

Post edited at 10:54
1
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I mean, if you think I'm the only person who did it, and indeed is doing it...

18
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

(not that I'm doing much of anything, anymore...)

 Offwidth 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

No I'm sure there are other lesser kn*bs who have the sense to keep shtum about their van life. The spirit of Whillans also included having a brawl with police having been stopped drunk driving.

 seankenny 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

You’ve been trying to have fun free riding on others’ efforts and sacrifices and think that climbing rocks makes you more special than middle aged bureaucrats (don’t mention Mick Fowler). You’ve then bragged about it on the internet under your own name (!) and said “it’s okay because lots of other people do it” which is a classic defence in conscience if not law. 

In case you were wondering, my view is that the pandemic is best dealt with if we all stick to the rules as much as possible. It’s much easier for us to do that if we know everyone else is doing the same. Strength in solidarity, which is quite a counter-cultural belief that may even be having a moment. When one person starts to break the rules then it undermines the social norm we need to deal with this threat. So the problem with your actions isn’t your individual risk, but your effect undermining the broader collective sacrifice required. You have obviously increased this effect by talking about it on a widely read Internet forum.

1
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

OK, but then the objection is not to my sleeping in a van, but to my admitting to sleeping in a van on a climbing forum.

Which to be fair, you've got a point regarding. I should have lied. 

5
 Martin Haworth 08 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

Come on, give the guy a break!

4
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

although, to repeat: sleeping in your car by the side of the road does not spread coronavirus 

ok now perhaps there are legions of people out there, wading through old threads on UKC, looking to me for inspiration and guidance as to whether to sleep in their van or not. I doubt it.

In any case, I'm happy to admit that if there is such a thing as karma, I probably got what I deserved.

 Iamgregp 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Oh good I'm glad the national mood of sanctimony has reached this thread!

To those having a go at Paul, what's your end goal here?  What is it that you want your criticism to achieve? Make an injured guy feel worse?  Stop him going climbing again? (clearly not needed)  Serve as a warning to other that if they go climbing they'll fall foul of the judgement of an internet forum?

Or maybe you're just bored and being sat at home and sanctimoniously judging people makes you feel good about yourself for 10 minutes or so?

Honestly what is it you want here.?  Paul to admit he's made a huge mistake and that you're right and he's wrong and to beg you for forgiveness?

I'm making no judgement about who is right and who is wrong here, but I just don't see what the point is.

8
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020

OK look:

- I admit that in retrospect I should not have been sleeping in my van (but I do think, in the grand scheme of things, that it was a pretty victimless-crime infringement of the regulations)

- If I'm a knob for doing so, it's for the reason Sean alludes to: not showing sufficient solidarity with others and making an excuse for myself in thinking I'm special so the rules can be bent in my case. I accept this is offensive, and as Offwidth puts it, basically knob behaviour (at least when broadcast)

- I don't think it's plausible that me kipping in my van 3 times in 2 weeks sets the kind of precedent whereby I was inspiring others to do the same - nobody in their right mind pays that much attention to me, surely

- if anything, the lesson of all this is: watch out, karma's a bitch. Don't antagonise her by sleeping in your van, and also that way you'll climb less and so be less likely to get hurt.

- can I please just remind those of you who are able (due to work) to live within an hour's drive of decent climbing how lucky you are? I'm just jealous is all.

Post edited at 11:55
5
 seankenny 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> OK, but then the objection is not to my sleeping in a van, but to my admitting to sleeping in a van on a climbing forum.

> Which to be fair, you've got a point regarding. I should have lied. 


You've managed to misunderstand what I've written. It's not about "inspiration", it's just that human beings do things because other human beings do them, as I'm sure you've noticed. I would be very surprised if you kept it secret from everybody you know in your offline life, but it is I suppose conceivable that you told no one, no one saw you and, were it not for your prolific posting, no one would be any the wiser.

As for suggesting it's karma, I'd no way be mean or rude enough to consider that. You had a horrible and unfortunate accident, the sort of thing that could happen to any of us at any time. It's completely unrelated to where you slept the night before!

Post edited at 11:58
1
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

I know you weren't saying that I deserved it. I'm kind of just trying to make light of it and poke fun at myself a bit, reminding everybody that the end product of my being a knob (as Offwidth puts it) and free riding (which you say, but actually I think is an exaggeration, but whatever) on the efforts of others, is not that I've had a lovely time climbing and enjoying myself when you're all stuck indoor, but that I've gone and ruined things for myself quite spectacularly.

I'm also trying to suggest that the desire to extract a confession and to impose a punishment is all a bit superfluous here. I broke the rules and...ended up much worse off than everyone else. (I know it's not causally related, I know there's no such thing as karma, I'm just pointing out that my self-defence in this context is less obnoxious than it would be if I was still out climbing. FWIW, if I was still out climbing I'd be keeping much quieter about it than I am now, stuck on my couch for 3 months.)

baron 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Those caravans and motorhomes need (or at the very least, are heavily reliant upon) caravan parks in order for their vehicles to be useable, and most of the owners of those vehicles - we can be pretty sure - won't even consider using their vehicles until those parks re-open.

> So we can be pretty sure that your scenario of a quarter of a million people pitching up on the side of the road in the National Parks is not going to happen. Also most of those people won't want to travel anyway because the things they want to use when they get to their usual destinations - pubs, restaurants, cafes, museums, whatever - are all closed.

> There is a rather big difference between dossing out of the back of a Renault Kangoo near Cratfcliffe on a random Wednesday night, and the industry that you are alluding to. So again, I don't think what happened here is that The Great British Public were all good and moral and selflessly refusing to use their caravans and campers - or else, how do you explain the hordes turning up to Lulworth Cove? Are mobile home and caravan users somehow all just much more decent than the population at large? No. It's that the systemic structure of incentives is such that most of those people will not be using their vehicles because they don't see the point at the moment. If you're a climber, however, it looks different. But the number of climbers with vehicles they can sleep in unobtrusively on the side of a quiet country lane is, considered at a macro level, negligible. 

You need to check the numerous Facebook sites dedicated to wild camping if you think that motorhomes need campsites to exist.

A motorhome will be far more self sufficient than your van or car.

People aren’t using their motorhomes because they see the need to obey the rules.

Your ‘it’s only me, I won’t make a difference’ attitude only works because everyone else doesn’t take the same approach.

My motorhome hasn’t been used since March and it’s costing me money to keep it in storage.

I’m not having with the situation but I’ll live with it as part of trying to get control of the virus and protect other people.

1
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to baron:

So put it this way:

If you quietly took your motorhome to (say) Dartmoor next Tuesday and discreetly parked it overnight, I wouldn't think you were a bad person for doing so, even if it wan't on balance the right thing to do. I'd get it.

And I understand how collective action problems work. And yeah, OK, I accept that my taking advantage of the fact other people aren't taking advantage was a knob thing to do (or rather, talking openly about it was a knob thing to do). However, in the grand scheme of corona-related knobbishness, it was maybe a 1 out of 10.

Post edited at 12:44
5
baron 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Maybe I’m just upset because my motorhome is white, 6.4 metres long and stealth camping isn’t really an option.

Also, if I was younger I’d possibly be less likely to follow all of the Covid rules.

Anyway, what’s done is done.

OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to baron:

Yup...a mantra I’ve been repeating to myself rather a lot lately!

baron 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Yup...a mantra I’ve been repeating to myself rather a lot lately!

😀

 Andy Clarke 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

> Come on, give the guy a break!


Christ, he's already down one ankle, leave him the other one!

 Blue Straggler 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I was lucky in a lead fall (my first!) in 2005 when gear ripped, and got away with a talus fracture that did not need any operation. 

Since healing, it has not impeded climbing in any "gymnastic" or strength terms, but still 15 years later (and probably forever), if I have a "long" day out, I end up limping quite badly. By "long" I could mean simply a good day out on Peak single pitch, or just a lot of walking. It might look OK on the day but I may be seen limping around a campsite to try to stretch and loosen whatever has tightened up in there, the next morning. I did the Yorkshire Three Peaks in 2017 and struggled with a limp on the last 5 miles of it. 
Once you are walking again, without crutches or plaster, you will find yourself being very tentative on anything other than a flat path. You'll be watching every footstep. This will slow you down. Trekking poles will help a lot with this, even on flat and just slightly rough terrain. Even just a path down from Stanage. Also elasticated ankle support socks (stupid pride stopped me treating myself to one for many many years); after my experience on the Yorkshire Three Peaks, I bought one and it was a Godsend, no problems on (for example) a touristy guided trek in in Peru, up a couple of mountains. No limping. 

I may be someone who just heals badly, given that my injury was much milder than yours. 

1
 TobyA 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

> Or maybe you're just bored and being sat at home and sanctimoniously judging people makes you feel good about yourself for 10 minutes or so?

Perhaps there is some of that, but it's not that sanctimonious is it? Paul has written at great length why what Cummings did was worse, I'd agree with him it was worse - but people (me included!) were in a rage about Cummings' hypocrisy. I don't think that rage was unjustified, so maybe being 'a bit miffed' by someone breaking this clear rule, which others have decided to follow, isn't really unjustified either.

I reasonably regularly (until March) wild camp or bivvy, sometime for a climbing trip but often just to get out somewhere quiet and wild-ish for a night. I know people are wild camping in the Peak again now, and putting pictures on the internet. I understand why they want to, and don't think it is likely to do any harm but it is quite clearly against the rules. It seems Cumbria police in particular, but North Yorks also, have been quite active in handing out fines to people doing what Paul did, other forces seem to be more just telling people to go home.

I got a bivvy tent to review for UKC just before the lockdown. I've only used it in the garden so far because of the "no overnight stays away from home" rule. It's very annoying, but I guess other people are having to make much bigger sacrifices following the rules.

Please also consider that I know of someone who regularly uses this site who has lost a loved one to covid 19 and another who lost a colleague, and probably they aren't the only ones. So it will be a lot more raw for some than it is for me, maybe you and probably Paul as well.

Paul - get well soon. I've got a dodgy ankle from hurting it whilst young and never really doing anything about it. It's definitely far more mobile that it should be and I have hurt myself when I've gone over on it a number of times. So I guess do all the physio you can to try and make sure it isn't weak in the future. Good luck.

OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020

FWIW, if I'd gotten fined by the police I'd have paid the fine without a word of complaint. In fact, I sort of calculated that I was prepared to pay £100 for a day of climbing, like those American families who started leaving their kids later and more often at nursery once the nursery introduced a fine for late pick-ups...

Post edited at 16:18
5
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020

In fact right now I'd pay about the entire contents of my ISA (not that much, but hey) for a day of climbing.

2
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Sounds like you may have damaged the cartilage in there. I've been doing a fair bit of reading about ankle injuries, and basically: if you break the bone, it's a pain in the ass but it heals; if you mess up the cartilage, it basically never heals. Dave MacLeod, for example, has had to have a bunch of expensive private surgeries to deal with a very small (physically speaking) bit of cartilage damage in his ankle that has proven far more damaging than a clean break to the bones in the long run. Some interesting stuff about this on his blog and vlogs.

 Iamgregp 08 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

Isn't it?  I thought some of the posts were the definition of sanctimony?

I didn't say what Paul did was wrong or right, I just questioned peoples motives for their posts.  Time and place and all that...

After all the subject of the thread is regarding injury recovery and in his OP Paul more or less concedes that there is a question over whether he should have been climbing anyway and asks people to leave that to one side for a few weeks (it's barely been one week).

4
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

False, it‘s been 10 days and that means only [42 - 10 =] 32 days until the no weighting period is over, and I can start physio, and so hopefully only [32 + 42 =] 74 days until I can climb again. 

Let’s stay focused on the positives here!

 TobyA 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Iamgregp:

> I didn't say what Paul did was wrong or right, I just questioned peoples motives for their posts. 

Fair enough, but like I said a bit of anger or annoyance doesn't really seem surprising from folk who would love to go off overnight for a climbing trip or just some wild camping themselves, but have decided they really should follow the rules. I'm pretty certain the only criticism has been over the 'camping', not on actually going climbing. 

 Iamgregp 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Ha! Very good....

 Martin Haworth 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

Crikey, 3 dislikes for trying to crack a joke!

1
In reply to walts4:

Judging by the amount of people that proved their doctor wrong, I feel like doctors just say things like "you'll never _____ again" just to piss you off and psych you up for the physio. 

 Misha 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

This is where having rules of thumb helps. Also taking time to think things through, especially as it wasn’t an emergency at the time. We’ve all been there, just with less drastic consequences. You then did the right thing by staying at the belay. No need to make a bad situation worse.

An accompanied abseil off a powerpoint belay would have been the solution if you really needed to get down. This is not complicated if you’re just coming down to the ground but not something to do in anger if you haven’t practised it. A multipitch descent like that is a different matter...

1
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

Well I have my girlfriend to thank for the good decision - I was totally loopy, insisting that we ab immediately "before the real pain sets in". Seemed like such a good idea at the time (I was thinking about how much quicker I'd get pain relief if I was at the bottom) but it almost certainly would have ended very badly.

OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020

And for rules of thumb, I devised one earlier today when thinking about the accident (again): "No E's in the hot sun!".

Because both times I've f*cked myself up, it was climbing E grades in direct sunshine on a hot day. And I really don't think that's a coincidence. From now on, when it comes to more serious trad: if the sun is shining - I ain't climbing!

Post edited at 22:36
1
OP Paul Sagar 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Martin Haworth:

I think there are some people who just get a kick out of going through the forums and disliking anything they remotely disagree with. Pretty much anything I write - however innocuous - gets at least 2 dislikes. I'm pretty sure there is at least one person whose hobby is to follow me around the forum and just dislike whatever I write on principle. I'm actually kind of flattered to take up so much of somebody else's bandwidth.

15
 Misha 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

As for staying in the van, it’s against the rules but I can totally see your point. The issue is more around things like lack of toilet facilities (although supermarkets have them and presumably they’re still open). Plus the general negative perception of climbing by locals if people are seen to flout the rules. I have a camper van but have only done day trips so far. Then again, I can easily do day trips from Birmingham. On the whole, the flack you’re getting is unfair. People hanging out in groups and not observing SD is a much bigger issue.

On a side point, I think camper vans are increasingly an issue in some locations and there is going to be a clampdown in the coming years. Some of the laybys in North Wales and car parks on Portland are like camper van cities. The amount of poo round there must be significant. The big monsters with en suite facilities aren’t an issue in that respect, it’s the smaller ones which don’t have that. I actually try to avoid using the van if possible (eg staying in a CC hut instead) and seek out proper toilet facilities. Wish everyone did that...

Post edited at 23:10
 Misha 08 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Climbing in the sun at this time of year certainly makes life harder at low altitudes. I wouldn’t go on some crags and sea cliffs in hot conditions. If you’re up on Cloggy, or it’s winter time, that’s a different matter!

1
OP Paul Sagar 09 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

Yup, we purposefully never went to Portland because of the access issues, especially around overnight parking antagonising locals. We picked Winspit and the Matlock area in part because both had public toilet facilities - the Worth Matravers public toilet in the car park was open, as is the one in the big Sainsbury’s in Matlock. And yeah, given that I’ve observed (and continue to observe, although a bit less by choice now!) social distancing pretty religiously since about 3 weeks before lockdown, that’s probably why I’m a bit narked about getting told off about sleeping in the van. But I do see why people find it obnoxious that I openly admit I broke the rules and think it was ok - I suppose that’s kind of the definition of obnoxious. 

 Blue Straggler 09 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Unless I missed it, nobody has said it, and I am not saying it (except to raise it as a possibility) but maybe some of the flak you are getting is not so much to do with kipping in the van, and more to do with the interpretation of "you can travel for exercise" as "drive nearly 3 hours each way for some climbing" (when presumably the "spirit" of "travel for exercise" was more "drive 20-30 minutes to somewhere with a nice walk or run"

2
OP Paul Sagar 09 Jun 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Ah, but when I kipped in the van, it was explicitly after the government ok'd "unlimited travel for exercise" 

Before that, I never went further than my road bike could carry me.

4
 TobyA 09 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Yes, the advice is very clearly in England now you can drive where you want as long as you drive home again to sleep. Particularly for winter climbing I often do day trips to North Wales or the Lakes and that's about 3 hours each way for me. I haven't done a trip to the Lakes since the lockdown easing but I don't think there is anything at all in the government legislation and guidance against it. If someone wants to drive to the Peak to climb for a day from London or down that way - it seems pretty clear that is completely within the current rules.

OP Paul Sagar 09 Jun 2020

3 downvotes. Oh mighty silent lurkers, I feel your disapproval and tremble at your wrath.

Post edited at 14:56
11
 Bacon Butty 09 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> 3 downvotes. Oh mighty silent lurkers, I feel your disapproval and tremble at your wrath.


If it bothers you so much, stop posting about the sodding subject.

We've got the frigging picture now!

Watch some movies or something.

Post edited at 15:02
1
OP Paul Sagar 09 Jun 2020
In reply to Taylor's Landlord:

It’s my thread about my broken limbs and my obnoxious moral failures and I’ll whine about being downvoted if I want to!

x x x

4
 Misha 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I don't regard your posts as obnoxious in any way and I don't judge you for doing what you did. Driving for a few hours is permitted and I don't really see any issues with it, if you can be bothered (personally I'm not going to travel more than 2 hours for a day trip but I'm luck to be able to get to a fair few crags in under 2 hours). Staying in a van is against the rules but no big deal in your particular case. Your accident was silly and totally avoidable but we all make mistakes and learn lessons in life, it's just that for some people it's more painful (literally or figuratively) than others. Posting about it on UKC is just being honest and that's something I really respect in people.

Like you, I observed the lockdown fairly strictly and only started getting out climbing three weekends ago. However my view has always been that local, safe and discreet climbing was fine during the lockdown and I don't judge people who have been getting out throughout the lockdown period.

Hope the recovery is going well. Something came to mind just now: Dave McLeod fingerboarding with a bust ankle after taking a bad off on what was to become Rhapsody. Didn't do him any harm in the medium to long term.

 Misha 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

> when presumably the "spirit" of "travel for exercise" was more "drive 20-30 minutes to somewhere with a nice walk or run"

What makes you think that? Boris & co have been fairly clear that you can travel any distance in England.

Furthermore, the English rules have now been changed anyway so that you no longer need a reasonable excuse to be outside your home. In that sense, the lockdown has ended in England. However there is still only a limited number of circumstances where you are permitted to stay overnight away from home. So there are no longer any restrictions on 'day hit' travel in England (strictly speaking, there was never a formal restriction on distance traveled in England - it was something for the police and the courts to interpret).

Now you could argue that people should continue to stick to local travel. However that's a matter of personal opinion. I think rather than distance traveled, what is far more important is what you are going to do when you get there. If it's to climb on a crag with not a soul in sight, that really isn't an issue. If it's to visit a packed beach, that's just stupid, whether you've driven 100 miles or walked 5 minutes to get there. 

 Blue Straggler 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

> What makes you think that? Boris & co have been fairly clear that you can travel any distance in England.

I stand corrected. I think it’s just that I am still catching up with that particular announcement (coupled with my forever question about whether a few pitches of trad climbing “well within your grade” really offers effective exercise 😃) 

1
 Misha 10 Jun 2020
In reply to Blue Straggler:

It’s not just the announcement. The rules fundamentally changed from 1 June: you no longer need a reasonable excuse to go outside. The concept of whether you can drive to exercise and what constitutes exercise is no longer relevant. You can drive, walk, run, cycle etc outside for any reason or for no reason at all. Of course it’s still sensible to avoid being outside home any more than you need to but there are no restrictions in that regard other than you can’t be away overnight. This is all in England only of course. 

Post edited at 22:42
 Offwidth 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

The only thing that changed was the rules from one form of not allowed to another. Paul and his partner's covid risks would have been negligible during lockdown as well (outside of use of public facility like toilets). Lockdown rules were never about individual risk assessment it was about a workable public policy. If every climber did what Paul did we would have had serious issues with locals concerns, the police would have to waste time on this and the local access people would be stretched dealing with complaints resulting from the maybe thousands of vans and cars/bivis. Given the understandable fear and the context of tens of thousands of deaths, his exceptionalism compared to the vast majority of climbers following the rules makes him a kn*b. I'm sure I'm not the only one still not climbing within the Peak park as I don't want to be adding to these local issues.

Post edited at 10:18
1
 Blue Straggler 11 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Where's Lord_ash2000 when we need him to explain how, if it is CLIMBING, then an individual's actions don't count because CLIMBING.  

 Misha 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I was responding to Blue Straggler's comment about driving and exercise. As far as travel and generally being outside your home, the legal situation did change fundamentally from 1 June. Before that, you needed a reasonable excuse to be outside your home at any point. The default was essentially that you should stay at home. Now you only need a reasonable excuse to be outside your home overnight. The default is that you should stay at home overnight but you are free to be outside during the day. That's a pretty significant change in the legal landscape. Obviously we still need to respect SD and various places are still closed (such as my office - so I'm at home most of the time anyway!).

Whether you then choose to go climbing at this or that crag, if at all, is then up to you as far as the law is concerned. As you say, it may be sensible to avoid certain areas / crags. It is also illegal to stay away from home overnight without a reasonable excuse and travelling for exercise isn't one of them. So what Paul did was illegal. I wouldn't do it myself. But I won't judge him either because it doesn't seem to me to have been a big deal in his particular case. So I don't exactly disagree with you but I'm generally careful to avoid criticising other members of the climbing community unless it really is a big deal. If I really wanted to criticise him, I'd focus on the circumstances of the accident rather than staying in a van.

4
 Offwidth 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

Well I'll continue to criticise you and him. It's still important people don't do this en masse and criticism is one of the few tools we have here. He's been a kn*b, not a Bond villain, and you are defending kn*bish behaviour. I have much fewer concerns with his accident... pushing the boat out too much given the times but incredibly honest about his mistakes (unlike on his dodgy logic on breaches of overnight stays). What happens if everyone with a van or bivi gear starts doing what he did? How can you defend one without implying it's OK for all?

 Misha 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

It depends on the circumstances. The circumstances of the overnight stay were hardly outrageous. If someone can do that discretely and without shitting in the woods, I don’t see it as a big deal. I wouldn’t do it myself at the moment and I don’t think it’s the right thing to be doing but I’m not going to jump on them and criticise them and I certainly wouldn’t call them a knob. Just because a few people are doing it doesn’t mean that everyone will. If lots of people start doing it, it would be advisable to refrain (Covid or no Covid - as I’ve said above, I’m not a fan of excessive van life, despite owning a camper van). In the same way that I’ve always thought that climbing was fine during lockdown if done locally, safely and discreetly, even though I wasn’t climbing myself. It’s a question of balance. I’m much more concerned about groups of people not observing SD.

The climbing accident was much more of an issue than the overnight stay. It involved an MRT call out - that’s a number of people coming into close contact with each other unnecessarily. It resulted in an unnecessary burden on the NHS - ok, they aren’t as overburdened as they were a while back but still it’s hardly a good thing. It was entirely avoidable and a result of bad decision making and inexperience in dealing with tricky situations. It’s the kind of accident that should not happen. Whereas staying in the van - ok, it’s against the rules but it resulted in precisely zero additional Covid infections or burden on the MRT and the NHS. I find it odd that you’re focusing on something which was, in the circumstances, inadvisable but pretty innocuous, when there is a much bigger issue here which you almost gloss over. I think there needs to be a sense of perspective.

Post edited at 02:38
3
 Offwidth 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

How do climbers defend their collective reputation in this crisis if we effectively forgive anyone breaking the rules? What does that say to those who lost family and friends? How on earth do thousands of vans and all the bivis, the vast number heading for the same climbing areas, all be discrete at the same time? What does effectively saying 'f*ck you' to local communities do for future access negotiation?

I wish he had shat in the woods... taking a trowel digging a hole and burying it (carefully burning the paper) is better than using public toilet.... or just show some planning and buy some wag bags over the internet.

The need to strictly avoid any chance of an accident has shifted and is now about conscience not rule. I agree we should still be more careful than normal to avoid accidents to cut the risk and inconvenience to the more stretched MRT volunteers but if the risk of accident was that serious a covid risk all climbing would be ruled out currently, like overnight stays. Hospitals are nothing like overwhelmed and being in hospital is a much bigger covid risk to him than the staff.

2
 seankenny 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

> It depends on the circumstances. The circumstances of the overnight stay were hardly outrageous. If someone can do that discretely and without shitting in the woods, I don’t see it as a big deal. I wouldn’t do it myself at the moment and I don’t think it’s the right thing to be doing but I’m not going to jump on them and criticise them and I certainly wouldn’t call them a knob. Just because a few people are doing it doesn’t mean that everyone will.

This is an unsophisticated argument and below a man of your obvious intelligence. It's not about Paul's actions as an individual; as you and he say, the covid-related risks were minimal and effects of Paul's stay were small. But it's clear that a lot of people would like to do something similar but haven't. I'd love to drive to the Peak and doss out somewhere quietly before returning to London the next day. The only reason the Peak, Portland and elsewhere are not full of camper vans, motorhomes and people bivvying is because of a collective sense of self-discipline. And if that were to break down then we can be sure some or all of the obvious negative results would occur.

So Paul only gets to indulge his desires because others don't indulge theirs - that's the very definition of free-riding on others' efforts, an allegation Paul is clearly uncomfortable with as it's basically the only thing he's denied. If there were no penalty at all for free-riding then more and more people would do it, right up to the point at which the dossing out becomes impossible to ignore, and penalties against everyone would increase. As well as possibly increasing covid infections. Paul has suffered roasting on an internet forum, hardly a severe censure.

Another interesting thing is Paul's and others' use of the phrase "tutting" to describe those critical of his behaviour. There's something slightly feminised about the phrase, indicative of twitching curtains and offended aunts, as compared to the manly freedom seekers channelling their inner Whillans.

Actually guys it's snide and makes you look like tw*ts.

Post edited at 12:07
2
OP Paul Sagar 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I don't know if this will make any difference but, in all honesty, if loads of other people had also been camping out in their vans then I would have stopped doing it

Was I free-riding? Yes. Would I have stopped doing it if I thought I was contributing to a critical mass of people who were - through weight of numbers - having a negative impact? Also yes.

The argument: well what if everybody did that? isn't static. If everybody else had been doing it, I would have calculated that it was no longer responsible - and I would have stopped. But I knew they weren't.

Was I taking advantage of the situation? Yeah. Would I have continued to do so if I thought my doing so contributed to harm because 'too many people are now doing it?' No. Same way I stopped using the climbing gyms a week before they were officially closed, because I thought "Actually I can be a transmission vector here, so I need to stop".

Sleeping in my van when I knew nobody else was doing it was, indeed, free-riding. Maybe I should have denied myself a day of climbing, out of solidarity with everyone else, and not free-ridden. But the "what if everybody did that?" argument doesn't work, because if everybody else had been doing it I wouldn't have

So again: if I'm a knob, it's for admitting openly that I slept in my van, when I could have just lied. 

And Misha: I feel very bad about having called MRT out. Believe me, I did not intend to call MRT out when I set out that day. And Offwidth: I really wasn't trying to push it (I was climbing E1; I climbed 7a and 7a+ sport the day before). Quite the opposite. I just f*cked up.

Post edited at 13:17
8
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Good judgement comes from bad experience and all that - hope you recover quickly.

 AJM 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

You're arguing that you'd have gone from being an early mover pushing (beyond) the limits of the current rules based on a personal view of your risk profile, to reversing to a tighter version of lockdown against what would have been a general trend of more people getting out and despite no change to your view of how much risk you were personally creating? On the basis that you beat the government into lockdown in the first place?

(there are some who would say that isn't an enormous achievement, and you were obviously still out climbing on popular sectors the weekend before lockdown, which suggests you were still happy to follow the herd when it came to outdoor climbing)

You'll have to forgive me for raising a virtual eyebrow at this point.....

OP Paul Sagar 12 Jun 2020
In reply to AJM:

1) I don’t believe outdoor climbing is a serious source of covid transmission, especially we found it easy to socially distance at crags that honestly weren’t that busy 

2) the reason I would have stopped staying in my van if loads of people had been staying in vans is not to do with Covid transmissions but antagonising locals/getting climbers a bed reputation. So just we never went to Portland after the lock down was eased, if the Peak had become a similar problem spot specifically due to too many people sleeping in vans, I’d have stopped doing that, too. 

I’m not being inconsistent here. 

5
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> I’m not being inconsistent here. 

Gonna have to stop you there. No one believes driving up the M1 is a serious source of covid transmission, yet you were at the front of the queue with your pitchfork, leading the cheers baying for the blood of Cummings throughout his press conference. But it's ok for you to doss in your van in the peak because reasons. 

Get well soon, but maybe quietly until the drugs wear off a bit. 

 Sir Chasm 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> 1) I don’t believe outdoor climbing is a serious source of covid transmission, especially we found it easy to socially distance at crags that honestly weren’t that busy 

Did you easily distance yourself socially from MRT?

> 2) the reason I would have stopped staying in my van if loads of people had been staying in vans is not to do with Covid transmissions but antagonising locals/getting climbers a bed reputation. So just we never went to Portland after the lock down was eased, if the Peak had become a similar problem spot specifically due to too many people sleeping in vans, I’d have stopped doing that, too. 

But you seem incapable of accepting that you would be the "too many people sleeping in vans", everybody can do something and say "oh, it doesn't matter, it's only little old me". And I think the idea you would have gone home if there were too many is mildly amusing, but probably a lie you're happy to tell yourself.

> I’m not being inconsistent here. 

 AJM 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

But as you know too well, one of the reasons that climbing on Portland straight after lockdown eased was discouraged was the fact the locals were still livid about the behaviour of climbers (who presumably all thought like you that they were being perfectly responsible and were comfortably socially distancing) that last weekend before lockdown.

You thought you were being low risk, responsible and socially distanced, they thought climbers were being [insert abusive phrase of choice]. Given the obvious parallel, I’m not sure that people are terribly good at realising that they are part of the problem until it’s too late. 

OP Paul Sagar 12 Jun 2020
In reply to AJM:

Yeah, you may well be right. 

OP Paul Sagar 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> Did you easily distance yourself socially from MRT?

THIS is what I feel truly awful and guilty about, two weeks on. Because the last thing I wanted to do that day was force MRT to come and rescue me. I apologised about 200 times on the day to them (partly because I was out of my nut on morphine, ketamine and laughing gas). FWIW, I think my f*cking up on the route and having to call MRT out is far more objectionable than my sleeping in the van. I actually think it’s fair to give me a hard time for that. The mistakes I made were stupid ones and I should definitely not have made them. 

OP Paul Sagar 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Yeah I should cop to the charge of hypocrisy on that one. Although as above, I do think what I did was a lot less bad than what Cummings did. But fair point, glass houses and that. 

1
 AJM 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> So just we never went to Portland after the lock down was eased, if the Peak.......

I guess one other thing which makes me think that it’d have become a problem before people realised - I’m not sure how many people knew in themselves that going straight back to Portland wasn’t likely to be well received - there was a lot of noise on UkC and elsewhere to get to a point where most people were aware of that.

Without that I think a lot of people, from memory including yourself, would have happily gone back to Portland from day 1 because they could do so in a sensible low risk way without being in contact with anyone and yada yada and the first they’d have been aware of how that had looked from the outside would have been afterwards.

OP Paul Sagar 12 Jun 2020
In reply to AJM:

I was aware that Portland was more sensitive than lots of places, and being an island etc had already made me stop and think a bit, but yeah if it weren’t for the UKC alerts I guess it would have been a likely first stop with the lockdown easing. 

 seankenny 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Was I taking advantage of the situation? Yeah.

This is where the evasion lies. You weren't taking advantage of "the situation", you were taking advantage of the sacrifice and effort put in by others. It's not a neutral "thing", it is the result of thousands and thousands of individual decisions, taken often at some cost, to try and make things better for everyone.

> The argument: well what if everybody did that? isn't static. If everybody else had been doing it, I would have calculated that it was no longer responsible - and I would have stopped. But I knew they weren't.

I haven't wanted to linger too much on your accident as everyone can have accidents. But you're arguing that you were right, based on your judgement of the situation, in a thread prompted by your own admitted lack of judgement. And above in the thread you admit that the way you presented it may also have shown some lack of judgement. So perhaps the line "I would have calculated" doesn't quite carry the weight you believe it carries...

Having said that, I hope that you heal up and that you're back out climbing as quickly as possible.

Post edited at 17:08
1
 TobyA 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Tuesday night, driving back along below Stanage from the Bamford parking to past Higgar at about 2230 I counted 6 vans parked all that looked like coversions, so I presume they had people sleeping in them.

I'm also part of a Peak District wild camping FB group where are number of people - half a dozen at least - are not only camping but posting pictures too. If asked some seem to say, no one else is doing it so what harm can it cause? Others have gone for: lots of other people - including camper vans which is a most looked down on form of camping in that group - are doing it, so why shouldn't I?

Derbyshire police maybe were burnt by their drone shame tweet back in march, so don't seem to be enforcing no camping, but the Grough was reporting yesterday Cumbria police are actively patrolling the Lakes looking for campers to ticket!

 TobyA 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> THIS is what I feel truly awful and guilty about, two weeks on. Because the last thing I wanted to do that day was force MRT to come and rescue me.

In almost 30 years of regular climbing I had to phone 999 for the first time 10 days ago after a friend of a friend who was at Stanage with us - in the sense that he was climbing with someone else on a nearby route - pulled a hold and took a nasty tumble down a steep descent. It became apparent that those of us who were there couldn't get him down to the road safely and that he was going to need to go to hospital anyway. So we called the police and and very quickly the wonderful Edale MRT came and stretchered him down. He was obviously in a lot of pain but fortunately it turned out only a collar bone was broken. 

The mountain rescue team were wonderful and very good-humoured about it all. Once the casualty was in the ambulance, I went to thank the team again and their comment was "not a problem at all that's what we're here for". I don't think they would want you to feel bad about having an accident at all. The generosity of their spirit impressed me hugely.

And accidents happen! Back in the middle of the lockdown my medically vulnerable father, who had been told by his oncology consultant not to go anywhere near a hospital, fell off a 3-step step ladder, I guess all of 50 cm, while pruning something in the garden! After a night of agony his GP he told him he had to go to a&e. Fortunately just severe bruising on his lower back (which he had broken many years ago falling off another ladder!). Some people don't learn!  

 Misha 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Staying in a van overnight does not spread Covid. Fair point about a wag bag but if you go to a proper toilet there will be plenty of water and hopefully soap (sensible to take your own just in case) to wash your hands so I don't see a lot of transmission risk there. So really it's about relations with locals. I think if someone can stay overnight discreetly, there is no real issue. Clearly if everyone starting doing it that would be an issue but most people aren't. For example, I don't need to because I can get to Matlock in less than an hour and a half - I wouldn't stay overnight there even if it were allowed. For Paul it's a much longer drive, so it's understandable that he wanted to stay there. As I said, it's a question of balance. If you turn up at a discrete overnight spot and find that it's already taken and can't find somewhere else, just go home. So it's self regulating like that.

6
 Misha 12 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

Yes, it's freeriding, but if a few people want to do something by taking advantage of the fact that most people aren't doing it, that's fine by me. I'm not envious (I'm not suggesting you are, just saying that I'm not - I don't particularly like sleeping in a van, despite owning one!). As long as it's only a few people, that's not a big deal in the scheme of things. I guess I have a fairly pragmatic, chilled attitude to such matters, as is my nature.

Anyway, I'm hoping the rules will be relaxed in 2-3 weeks' time, not least because it will be summer holiday time and people will want to go hotels, campsites and so on. At that point we might actually see an explosion in van life and that will be a much bigger issue. Or perhaps not, given that we now have endless rain...

Post edited at 21:08
5
 Misha 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Exactly. It's a case of seeking out discreet spots and being prepared to go somewhere else or go home if they're taken.

3
 Misha 12 Jun 2020
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Cummings was travelling with someone who had symptoms, so that's a whole different kettle of fish. Plus he is a key public figure who had a major hand in devising the whole lockdown policy, so we'd expect the highest standards from him.

4
 Misha 12 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

I have no issue with, say, Paul breaking the rules in a way which doesn't actually spread Covid. Like him, I was pretty strict about the lockdown for 9 weeks, only getting outside once a day for a walk or to go to the supermarket. For the last three weekends I've been climbing at weekends but otherwise only getting outside once a day for a walk or to go to the supermarket (or not at all, with this recent rain!). Is it a sacrifice? May be it is, of sorts, but I just see it as doing something which we are being asked to do for good reasons.

What I do have issues with is people blatantly breaking the rules in ways which are actually likely to spread Covid. People hanging around in groups and youths packing into cars. People going to ridiculously crowded beaches. That kind of thing.

3
 Blue Straggler 13 Jun 2020
In reply to TobyA:

> his lower back (which he had broken many years ago falling off another ladder!). Some people don't learn!  

Sounds like steps need to be taken....

.

.

.

.

.

.

.....away from your Dad! 😃

1
 barry donovan 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Woke up and had a look over a percolated strong one and this is still rolling. Will soon be a record.  Custer  - last stand ?  It’s time for the white flag on this one - felt like saying “ your argument hasn’t got a leg to stand on “ but thought it was a bit callous.  

rehab : watch the enthusiasm for compensation training.  I did heavy seated dB curls with a caste on my right leg and because of the imbalance position pulled a back muscle into the bargain  !  

 rogerwebb 13 Jun 2020
In reply to barry donovan:

> Woke up and had a look over a percolated strong one and this is still rolling. Will soon be a record.  Custer  - last stand ?  It’s time for the white flag on this one - felt like saying “ your argument hasn’t got a leg to stand on “ but thought it was a bit callous.  

You may be right but I admire the tenacity. 

Paul may have sinned, so have most of us at some point in our lives. It doesn't make him a bad person. 

As for the accident anyone who has climbed for a while will have made wrong choices. Mostly we get away with it, sometimes we don't. (Thank you Langdale MRT May 1981) 

Post edited at 08:54
 barry donovan 13 Jun 2020
In reply to rogerwebb:

Oh yea - there I was banged up after bouncing down a descent gully and very glad that my helmet and not my head  had struck the rock from side to side.  No phones in those days - chopper eventually inches up the narrow gully.  Rescue bloke winches in with a stretcher and grins at me as he lands then gives a thumbs up saying

“Chamonix rescue plus vite du Monde”

 Offwidth 13 Jun 2020
In reply to rogerwebb:

Firstly, when nearly all of us humans from time to time have clear evidence we have been a kn*b we mostly don't advertise it on the internet and only some who do that would then argue about it. 

Secondly, only a small minority of climbers have broken covid rules and nearly all discreetly: only a tiny number of them them ended up needing MRT and being hospitalised.

Hence, Paul is doubly special and seems unique in the combination. I can feel his yearning to climb through his posts and articles on UKC, and know what they feels like, however given he did what he did, all that was ever needed was a bit more reflection and an apology to the climbers who did stay home during this national tragedy. You can't individually risk assess you way out of rules in these horrible circumstances.

His only climbing E1 point means, like most climbers of his ability, that he hasn't digested the counter-intuitive lessons on risk from John Dill's masterful analysis. Some climbers argue we need to learn immediately about specific accidents to improve safety but most ignore the lessons from the best analysis we already have.

http://www.bluebison.net/yosar/alive.htm

1
 rogerwebb 13 Jun 2020
In reply to barry donovan:

> “Chamonix rescue plus vite du Monde”

That is a great line and wonderful style.

OP Paul Sagar 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Some might take a more generous view of my conduct on this thread: that I've had an open discussion and - as can clearly be seen in some of my posts - have accepted fault and offered contrition on some points, I just disagree about where my sins really lie, and how severe those sins really are.

I understand that my talking openly about it has been interpreted by some as arrogance - and has offended them in turn. I get why that would be the case. But I'm weird (I do moral and political philosophy for a living) so for me, this has really been as sort of group exploration of a complex ethical situation, involving lots of reasonable but disagreeing judgements. My persistence and continuation of the arguments is more to do with intellectual curiosity rather than just pig-headedness. I appreciate that without context, and just reading my posts, that isn't going to be obvious. But maybe I come across a bit less of a knob if you realise that I'm actually just a bit weird in this way and my aim hasn't been to trumpet my rule-breaking in the face of others as a 'f*ck you' but rather me saying 'yeah, you got me, I did do that - but is it really as bad as you think, cos I think not for these reasons'.

I get that people see it differently to me. That to me is interesting, and I don't think it's just a case of me self-deceiving myself (although I have to admit that may be possible, and indeed if it's true, I'll be the last person to be able to see it).

5
OP Paul Sagar 13 Jun 2020

Anyway, just a quick update on the actual injury, for those who may be interested:

I finally spoke to the registrar at Whipps Cross Hospital yesterday and the news is that contrary to initial worries, I seem to have gotten bloody lucky.

The injury is less severe than initially feared: due to it not being possible to 'reduce' (doctor speak for 'putting it back in the right place') the initial dislocation without surgery (because my Achilles had wrapped around the back of my heel so was preventing relocation), the injury initially looked more severe than it is. I managed to get away with not breaking the tibia and fibula (the fib just popped out of the bottom of my leg to say hello), just the talus (which was also dislocated). The surgeon at Sheffield put me back together very well and everything is fixed in place successfully - I've an 8 inch scar on the inside of my right ankle, where they had to go in to operate, but that's also healing well. Prognosis is 4 more weeks in plaster, then I can begin initial weight-bearing and physio. Assuming no  complications, I may be able to climb again by September.

I'll probably still get arthritis down the line, and I can expect to carry on feeling like somebody is stabbing hot knives into my foot most evenings, as my leg swells up in the cast for the day, but after an initially very gloomy outlook from the osteopaths on the day, the future is looking much brighter.

I'm going to be really fat by the autumn, though.

 Offwidth 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

How about the political philosophical perspective of needing very good moral reasons for breaking such clear rules. The rules were never based on your individual risk. Or is your moral philosophy of the Nietzschian 'superman' variety.

1
OP Paul Sagar 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Well, there is also the sub-complication of whether the rules, precisely by being so clear, are simultaneously too blunt to appropriately cover the nuances of reality, opening up the space for individual judgement...

But no, I’m certainly not labouring under the delusion that I’m an Ubermensh. Those aren’t the bits of Nietzsche I find worthwhile. 

3
 Andy Clarke 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Nietzsche doesn't seem very popular on here. Kant's the man for UKC: lots of love for the categorical imperative. 

OP Paul Sagar 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Andy Clarke:

Indeed. As a thorough-going Humean, maybe that’s why I find myself so often at odds with others...

1
OP Paul Sagar 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Andy Clarke:

Although I’ve often thought Nietzsche was right when observed that “the categorical imperative reeks of cruelty”....

 Misha 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

To be fair, he wasn’t climbing an E1, he completely messed up retreating from an E4. It wasn’t really to do with the grade, rather it was very poor decision making.

A good mindset to have is to treat whatever you are climbing with respect and place sufficient gear etc. I certainly treat E1s with respect even though that’s 4 grades below my onsight limit in normal times (never mind when I’ve been in lockdown for months).

 Misha 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

That’s great news. Let’s hope we aren’t back in lockdown by September... and remember to always lower off two pieces in future!  Carrying a couple of maillons is a good idea as well. 

 Andy Clarke 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Since I've never really managed to shake off my teenage existentialism/situationalism, I generally keep my views on ethical matters quiet!

 Misha 13 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Although I’ve often thought Nietzsche was right when observed that “the categorical imperative reeks of cruelty”....


Beyond the good and the evil. Great route, that...

 Offwidth 14 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

I'm aware of that. Paul was the one who said the following, contradicting his own more sensible assessment of the accidient in the process.

"I really wasn't trying to push it (I was climbing E1; I climbed 7a and 7a+ sport the day before). Quite the opposite. I just f*cked up."

The YOSAR report is clear about most fatalities and serious accidients being avoidable and mostly happen to experienced climbers and that's on all climbing in the park not just the big walls. We can understand accidents due to inexperience but the experienced are too often in denial about the risks to them.

OP Paul Sagar 14 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

But I haven't contradicted anything. I didn't fall off the E1 (which I had laced with gear, where gear was available). I fell off in no man's land between the E4 and the E1, after I'd taken my gear out of the E4 (three bomber pieces), which I was on by mistake, when stupidly aiding on a very bad cam. As Misha says, it was was poor decision making. As I said above, I know full well I should have either lowered off two pieces, or simply finished the E4 (which I'm confident I could have done, it was more a worry about how long it would all take, especially for my second who would have really struggled). I didn't have the accident because I fell whilst *climbing*, I had the accident because I switched my brain off and thought I was being safe by aiding back to what I had originally intended to climb (in my dehydrated, tired, rushing, hot, state of mind, my reasoning short-circuited and I did the more dangerous thing - aiding on a bad cam - because I mistakenly processed it in the moment as the safer thing). 

4
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I fell off a sports climb 2 Easters ago in Kalymnos and badly broke my ankle. As a consequence I had 2 x operations plates and pins and all that palava. Grade wise it was only 6b+ but a combination of factors contributed to my slipping off. The bolts were 3 metres apart and the one I failed to clip was way off to the right.  It was a bit ironic actually. I had carried a cheating stick, in my pack, for several years and never felt a need to use.  Spotting the spaced bolts I clipped it to my harness but when I came to clip the rope in my foot slipped and as I did not have a proper handhold, it was a sloping lay off, I just went. Probably about 12 metres all told. Someone much lighter than me was belaying and that probably did not help although she held me. I hit the sloping, 6a slab bit of the climb.  Vicky if you are reading this I do NOT blame you in the slightest.  The rock was also a little soapy at that time in the morning added to which it was a tufa which can be slippy at the best of times.

Because the plates had to be replaced when I got back to the UK I was out of action for 12 months or so.

Al

 Offwidth 14 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Still in denial about 'pushing it' even though you fully describe the problem?  Who in their right mind avoidably aids on just a single bad cam, ever, let alone in these days of taking extra care with unneccesary risk. All of the other factors explain the cascade chain in the accidient but the key mistake should have been 'hard wired' against. You are far from alone in this sort of accident, which is the point I'm trying to make and why it's forgivable (especially since you recognise the problem and apologized). For all the accidents there will be many more experienced climbers being lucky doing really stupid shit.

Post edited at 14:31
5
 Dave Cundy 14 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

It was interesting reading Joe Simpson's book "The Beckoning Silence".  Clearly very competent and experienced, he realised that bad luck was going to catch up with him sooner or later.  Just a combination of being in dangerous territory a large number of times.  A probability of 0.000001 of something bad happening still means that some poor bugger will catch it every so often. No matter how competent they are.

This time, it was Paul's turn.

I hope you're back in business next summer Paul. One of my friends spent three months in a wheel chair after he bust his talus.  He's got back to climbing ok but avoids some activities that don't agree with his ankle.

OP Paul Sagar 14 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I guess by “pushing it” I was specifically referring to climbing a hard route. I wasn’t doing that.

but if by “it” you mean “my luck”, then yeah, I was certainly pushing that!

OP Paul Sagar 14 Jun 2020
In reply to Dave Cundy:

Thanks - i guess if there was ever a summer to miss, it was this one! Luckily I may be able to make a return before too long as the prognosis is now much better than originally feared. Still a long road, but not as long as it could easily have been. The worst thing at the moment is the shooting pins and needles (think: being stabbed in the foot with hot knives) that are a result of nerve damage from the dislocation, combined with the bloody nightmares, which together make sleeping...not great. Apparently this is normal though and should go away in a few weeks! I’m still hoping to be be able to go to Scotland at the end of August. Doubtful I’ll be able to climb yet, but I can at least look at the mountains. 

 Janet Horrocks 14 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I broke my ankle very badly in 1986 (open fracture with both leg bones broken). The joint fused and I have very little movement however i have done all sort of things that I was originally told would not be possible.The main thing is to be patient and work out how you can do things (orthotics in shoes and adapted ski boots in my case). Climbing was pretty unaffected although extreme smearing is tricky. I can’t run and walking poles are a help on descending rough ground. I found it hard to do 2 big mountain days in a row so got into sport climbing. I’m v nervous about jumping off boulder problems. 

It took me a few years to work out how I could do things around my injury and after a big day out have to have a few Ibroprufren in the morning. 

 Misha 14 Jun 2020
In reply to Dave Cundy:

Simpson was talking about Alpine and Greater Ranges, where the objective dangers are higher and sometimes it can just be bad luck. What Paul did was a mistake rather than bad luck. 

2
 Michael Hood 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

The severity of the consequences was bad luck. Most of the time we get away with doing things that are obviously stupid in retrospect.

 kevin stephens 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I had a compound tib and fib fracture 30 years ago from a freak indoor bouldering accident, my ankle was nearly severed and I was lucky to escape amputation. At the time the surgeon told me that any sporting activities would be out of the question. I was in hospital for 2 months and full plaster for 2 or 3 more. When the plaster came off it took a month or more on crutches 

It recovered quite well. The biggest issue has been growth of bone callous around the ankle bones restricting range of movement, particularly my instep hinge. This has greatly limited my ankle’s capacity for shock absorbing so I can’t run and have to be very careful jumping off indoor bouldering walls (outdoor bouldering is out of the question) it look a couple of years to reach that far. Walking up steep hills is not a problem, descending them is slow and can be uncomfortable. I was back climbing harder than before (E4 trad) within 18 months. Although I still can’t run, road cycling is not a problem at all and has helped me maintain a very good level of fitness.  I’ve become a keen backcountry skier, for this I have to have 20mm heel lifts in my footbed beneath my bad ankle to ski off piste effectively.

in summary be patient, work hard on rehab and physio, listen to your body and be prepared to adapt.

Post edited at 09:19
OP Paul Sagar 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Misha:

Agreed. Luck should never have come into it, because i should have made decisions that eliminated luck from the equation given the control-ability of the situation (so to speak). 

OP Paul Sagar 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

In this case, given that I looked down earlier, saw the slab, even said to my partner “hmm if I fall from here I’m going to hit that slab”...this one really is most definitely on me. But hey, hopefully I’ll learn this time!

OP Paul Sagar 15 Jun 2020
In reply to kevin stephens:

Thanks! Stories like yours make me confident I’ll be able to make a comeback. Less than 4 weeks until I can start physio now!

 kevin stephens 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Janet Horrocks:

Interesting that my experience mirrors yours almost exactly!

 Offwidth 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

What concerns me most is the next level up of thinking about such risks. The evidence is very clear that our psychology leads most of us into such risk traps, from time to time, and despite our experience.  It's easy/routine so no need to focus as much, often being a cause. Even stars get distracted and forget to tie in correctly.  So part of the problem is too many have forgotten what things like the BMC participation statement actually mean in breadth: all climbing is dangerous and real risk is only very loosely related to grades. I'm still not entirely sure Paul gets this (and if so will be far from alone in that). A process that led to aiding a single dodgy cam with no backup is yet another mad example of a really stupid thing in risk terms in climbing that I've heard of. One key way round this is drilled teamwork, the risk assessment of the pair should function well. I ask my partners to not mince words with me.

Post edited at 10:19
OP Paul Sagar 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I actually agree entirely with this. The root cause of my accident was complacency and over-confidence, that led me to forget that what I was doing was inherently dangerous (whatever the grade). The irony is that if I’d been less experienced I never would have made the mistakes I did, because I’d have been more scared and thus more alert to the risk I was vulnerable to.

OP Paul Sagar 15 Jun 2020

Or to put it more succinctly: gravity doesn’t care what grade you’re climbing.

 Offwidth 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Yet if you had taken this concept fully on board at the time your partner would likely have stopped you and you might even have stopped yourself. Let hindsight be a wonderful thing for the future.

 tehmarks 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Great to hear that things are looking better than first feared! Hope your recovery is speedy and uncomplicated from here in. 

 tehmarks 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Dave Cundy:

I think Joe Simpson might have been pushing his luck long before he left for the bigger mountains! According to his own writing, he should be dead five times over by now. If you were his climbing partner, you might be excused for thinking he was unnaturally hazardous to be around!

 Rick Graham 15 Jun 2020
In reply to tehmarks:

It's his job , he' made a good living out of it

OP Paul Sagar 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

Yup - one thing we’ve both discussed is that we had long since passed the point where she should feel she needed to defer to me “as the experienced one”. She should have felt much more comfortable shouting up “are you sure that’s a good idea?” - and the reason she didn’t feel comfortable is that I’d allowed a dynamic of “I’m the one who knows best” to go on far too long. If I’d been climbing with any of my other regular (more experienced) partners I doubt the accident would have happened because they’d have shouted “what the f*cking hell are you doing you idiot?!” at me first. 

 tehmarks 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Rick Graham:

He was the first mountain literature author I ever read, after watching The Beckoning Silence on TV. He's the reason I started climbing, no eaggeration. His books have lost their appeal to me more recenty though, after a prominent climber of the time pointed out on here that at least one incident in one of his books didn't actually happen to him but had been plagarised from someone else's epic. It's hard to be gripped by stories of climbing epics when you're questioning the veracity of the writing at every page.

Either way, by all accounts he should come with a disclaimer and a prominent warning sign

OP Paul Sagar 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Is that definitely true? If so it’s a pretty shocking revelation, one that would indeed seem to discredit him pretty severely (the original horror story of TTV notwithstanding), as you say. If it is true, how come it‘s not more widely known?

 caradoc 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I also dislocated my ankle and broke my fibula. My recovery was not straightforward and I had four operations in the end. I’m still not sure what went wrong but I was continually told my ankle was unstable. Be very careful about any weight bearing including cycling. I believe some of my problems came from cycling although the surgeons told me this was unlikely I think more force is exerted through your ankle than you realise when you are going uphill. I’ll never know but I have finally made a good recovery despite my initial set backs. Good luck with your recovery and don’t feel guilty; you could have done it stepping off the pavement.

In reply to tehmarks:

After reading his books I did begin to wonder if he ever learnt any lessons.  Several time he claims he nearly came cropper simply because he was walking with earphones on and didn't hear the approaching danger.  Once would be enough for me.

Al

 barry donovan 15 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Oh no ! . . . (Theme music from Jaws ). . .it was her fault then  . . .? What if you had a few words in the car on the way ?  This one has developed a life of it’s own.  
No it wasn’t . . .yes it was . . .etc 

OP Paul Sagar 15 Jun 2020
In reply to barry donovan:

Haha no, it was definitely 100% my fault. 

 Misha 16 Jun 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

You have a point. Although when the consequences are high, the risk mitigation antenna is usually well tuned. A lot of minor accidents happen because the consequences are not high so you think, yeah, whatever, ouch!

 Jon Dixon 17 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Haven’t read to the previous 200 posts, so I hope you've found some encouragement already. I didn’t have any associated fracture but cleanly dislocated my right ankle a couple of years ago. It took a little while before I could climb again, 4 months i think, but I’m climbing higher grades now than before the ankle.

I found things very depressing while recovering though, so make sure you've got family and good friends around to support you, and look after yourself.

take care 

Post edited at 07:10
OP Paul Sagar 17 Jun 2020
In reply to Jon Dixon:

Thanks for the encouraging words! Luckily my prognosis is looking more positive than it initially seemed - only the talus broken and all indications are that it is healing well. It‘s still wait-and-see regarding ligament and tendon damage and how long it will take to rehab all of that but with some luck there will be no further complications and I can be back to some sort of climbing by the autumn.

i know what you mean about the depression though. The last couple of days have definitely been hard - it just seems like so long until this will all be over, and then when it is, it’ll almost be winter again. On the other hand, when it is all over it’ll just be like everything else: a thing that happened in the past that didn’t last forever (even if it felt like it did at the time). Started limited home training again yesterday so at least that kills some time and stops me feeling fat and rancid!

 Mr Lopez 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Less than 4 weeks until I can start physio now!

Are you not doing any physio or exercises currently?

There's a range of them to do even if you are in a cast and even if strict orders are don't move the ankle at all. Mainly movements of the toes and limb (glutes, quads, etc) exercises which on the one hand helps retain those movements and muscle/tendon subtleness/mobility which will be useful when you start weight bearing (muscles controlling the knee's or hip's stability for example), and on the other it promotes bloodflow which is the one sole variable on how long a given injury takes to heal.

There's a rule of thumb that the time it takes to recover muscle mass is twice as long as it takes to lose it, so focusing in not to lose it is not just more efficient, but it helps mentally as it gets you actually doing something about it.

Post edited at 13:55
OP Paul Sagar 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Mr Lopez:

Yeah I’ve been doing all of this - didn’t get specific instructions to, but it seemed to make sense, and having read around a bit I found lots of stuff online saying what you’ve said.

Definitely restricted in what I can do but every day I’m making a conscious effort to move my toes a lot, and flex the ankle in the limited ways I can. Mobility in all but my little toe now seems back to almost what it was, and even the little toe may be restricted by the cast more than internal damage. Also the burning stabbing electric shock pains have eased off in the last few days which can presumably only be a good sign.  

 Mr Lopez 19 Jun 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Nice. That sounds like good progress. Took me a whole lot of time before i could even manage to move my toes, and for the weirdest part, for a full year my toenails didn't grow at all which was handy. Haha.

One exercise for the toes which is quite engaging, and can be used also for the ankle once out the cast, is to write the alphabet in the air with them. It really gets the toes and forefoot working and some letters are really quite hard to spell. Very useful as well for the leg is using resistance bands. You can wrap them around the cast and do plenty of different exercises putting loads in the leg without loading the ankle joint itself.

Talking about loads, loading up on Ibuprofen half an hour before the exercises might be a good idea to prevent swelling as that's another one that it's easier to prevent than it is to get rid of, but check wth your doctor if he okays that as it was thought that ibuprofen affects healing, and even though recent studies show that not to be the case he's the one that went to school and has a piece of paper to prove it, so he calls the shots.


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