UKC

Good morning all.

Just been out for a gorgeous run up on the SE corner of the moor. 

I know it's the summer holidays but the manner in which people were using the moor was appalling. Given that there are threats to the right to camp on the moor at the moment the behaviour of many risks providing the excuses that landowners and others are seeking to restrict long held access rights.

Starting off on Black Hill I ran up to Haytor and found a group camping in two tents between Haytor and Lowman. These guys were climbers (ropes on the ground) and were in  stupidly prominent spot.  Down to the top car park and there was a VW with it's roof popped up clearly still bedded down from the night before. 

After running over to Rippon tor and Buckland Beacon I came across more tents and vans at Coldeast cross and another tent on top of Pil Tor. Down the ridge to Bonehill and there was a motor home in the first car park. The occupants had spilled out and were having breakfast in their pyjamas on the boulders. A double bed had been dragged out of the motorhome and a lady was still lying there under a duvet.

Onto Holwell lawn and a group of four tents were down by the Becka brook. A group of teenagers having a social time. Up to Smallacombe and there was another tent in a prominent spot and heading back to Black Hill another two tents all up on the ridge and highly visible.

Camping on the moor is great but please consider your site and think try to be as unobtrusive as possible.

I know that most of those involved were not climbers but some of them certainly were. Climbers of old had a wonderfully anarchic approach to rules and guidance. That was probably acceptable when climbing and camping were niche activities. Given the pressure on our wild(er) spaces now we all need to take some responsibility. Please do your bit to make sure these rights remain for generations to come.

Dartmoor wild camping code of conduct. https://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/enjoy-dartmoor/outdoor-activities/camping

Dartmoor wild camping map. https://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/about-us/about-us-maps/camping-map

Recent thread on threat to Dartmoor wild camping. https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/off_belay/wild_camping_ban_on_dartmoor-74...?

Well said. It's all a bit silly at the mo, mind, I haven't seen many rangers or anyone else enforcing the rules?

Where this is headed no doubt is the picture of DNPA officers stood in front of litter and bbq scorch marks telling us all that despite all our feedback, they are going ahead with a pile of bylaw changes. Justification will be the behaviour of some this summer. 

Me being a dull law follower, I will have my joyful use of the moor curtailed as a result. The lot causing all the problems will carry on regardless. 

What's needed is a bit of enforcement of the existing rules...sadly it seems no chance of that. 

I grew up on the eastern edge of the moor by the north teign river and clapper bridges. Seldom saw a camper growing up, but going back post-lockdown there were 2-3 tents every day I walked up there, with one popular hidden spot on an island in the river occupied pretty much every night. People weren’t pitching up late or packing out early, and they were being noisy and leaving litter. I’m not surprised at all that wild camping laws are coming under threat, and whilst that is sad, part of me hopes it does become restricted for the sake of the flora and fauna (and to teach people that we can’t have nice things!). 

We even get the campers here in Torbay, but they are generally those of a more vagabond type, although Long Quarry Point is popular with Bank Holiday ravers, judging by all their litter.

Your run is also one of my longer dog-walks!

...and having just been on the north moor for a walkies, clucking bell its dry up there at the mo. Fire risk must be off the scale. 

Let's hope no BBQs.

Got home and the fire brigade have been busy putting out half a field plus a hedge next to the local A road. Looks like it came to within 3m of a house. Close one.

Totally agree with this - there was some statistic during the recent bylaw change conversation about how little enforcement there is (cant find it at present) but pretty much no one has ever actually been fined for breaking them. Seems enforcement is essentially negligible.  

I dont, as once we lose that right, I doubt it'll ever return!

I that so terrible? Camping is one of those things were if the odd person does it, there is no problem but if lots do it becomes damaging and unsustainable. 

Why exactly would it be unsustainable? In my experience one bad group are way more damaging than hundreds following all the wild camping rules. As such the real issue is ignorance/criminality with zero enforcement and sod all to do with sustainability.

As far as I know there are no signs (as in information boards) up in any car parks or anywhere on the moor? I wonder how much is just ignorance? 

I cant think i've ever seen any outreach other than a "take moor care" road sign. I think your thread is really helpful to point this stuff out because I imagine most people are oblivious (rather than deliberately disobedient). 

I grew up on the edge of the moors and in my youth I went bouldering at bone hill and afterwards camped incredibly stupidly right next to the car park. In the morning someone politely explained how stupid what I was doing was. As an 18 year old lad it never even occurred to me that I might be breaking rules. I saw the moors as a sort of infinite lawless playground. 

In the total absence of the park enforcing their own rules, it's helpful for the community to do as much as they can

It would help immensely if people simply did it properly - tents up at dusk, down at dawn, no litter left.

Not sure when you were last up on the moor but literally every car park and lay by has prominent signage that makes it clear that overnights stays are prohibited. It's shame as even the signage is more visual litter. 

I'm not sure how to do a better job on informing people of 'wild' camping best practice without it risking even more ill-informed people to come and have a go.

In fairness it was way pre lock down. My memories of dartmoor carparks were flat patches of tarmac meeting billiard green grass and nothing else. I can see information boards being unsightly so it's not ideal

I think we have enough restrictions on the right to roam, right to camp, and right to access the countryside already in the UK (especially the south), and Dartmoor is the one bit that has more freedom, it would be a massive massive blow to see that go because of irresponsible few.

I really don't think any of the damage is unsustainable either (massive discussion to be had around even defining that term, in my view some of the agricultural practices on Dartmoor are more damaging than camping), it looks awful but actually long term impact is probably low (providing someone cleans up the mess left)?

I'm in no way condoning such behavior btw, think its deeply irresponsibly, but enforcement of existing laws/rules regarding camping on Dartmoor would be appropriate, rather than outright ban IMO.....

Excrement, litter, damage to vegetation.  In many areas camping has been banned or restricted (Loch Lomand, many alpine areas etc) and it's been beneficial.

Sure. Needs regulation too

it looks awful but actually long term impact is probably low (providing someone cleans up the mess left)?

Who is going to do that? 

Yep, those bans were due to irresponsible and loutish camping, usually road side or cl8se to roads. Please explain what's wrong with responsible wild camping on Dartmoor and why as a climber (who should be supportive of such access) that you seem so keen to denigrate responsible wild campers and how such responsible camping is unsustainable.

No, alpine bans are widespread.

See above.

Says who? 

Yet none of the points above apply to responsible wild campers and from everything I've seen and heard that's the majority of those taking advantage of Dartmoor freedoms well away from roads.

Widespread Alpine bans are no different to widespread bans elsewhere in England and Wales. Responsible wild campers don't cause them nor do they do any harm,

Are we to be banned from the crags because  a small majority of irresponsible users take a shit, litter or risk wildfires?

I think you and MG are both right; irresponsible camping is never acceptable but "responsible" camping becomes irresponsible if too many people are doing it in that area.

I could be camping roadside (or even not roadside) in two different places, doing exactly the same thing, but one would be, I think, acceptable and one unacceptable.

So it is reasonable to have restrictions in areas which have become too busy as well as rules for individuals camping anywhere.

Why? If you are responsible you are nowhere near anyone outside your group. You are discrete, you leave no trace and often only camping or bivvying while it's dark.

Yes, that is the point I was making. But when pressure of numbers wanting to camp in an area makes that impossible there needs to be restrictions.

Restrictions already exist where most of the the problems are.

Have you even read the wild camping rules?

https://www.dartmoor.gov.uk/about-us/about-us-maps/camping-map

Yes, I think that if just over half of climbers are shitting at the bottom of the crag, then a ban might be reasonable

And are you ok with that?

I was thinking about camping more generally, but there doesn't seem to be anything there about being near other people camping. I don't know whether it is a problem on Dartmoor, but, if there are enough people wanting to camp, they do tend to home in on the same known "nice" spots which then show signs of overuse however careful individuals are. Yes, with a bit of knowledge and imagination, people like you or I can avoid these places, but, with increasing numbers of people wanting to camp, many will not.

As per TMM, plastic signs everywhere,  so it's nothing to do with ignorance. 

Enforcement is the missing activity,  and if that was done even remotely properly the problem would vastly reduce.  

There also needs to be a suitable alternative to send those moved on to. Plenty of suitable car parks, but none allow overnights.  Plume still shut which DNPA ignore/fail to appreciate too.

It says no large groups up front.

Restrictions are the norm in England, if you want to talk about ignoring restricted camping why not start your own thread? Dartmoor is special for England, we can wild camp legally there and there is also a facility for legal 'pop up camps' (see the link in the code). Wild camping access is at risk there and the last thing we need is climbers supporting the landowners (where both those climbers and landowners know they are punishing those following the rules using bad behaviour in already restricted areas as an excuse).

I've no issue with people camping anywhere discretely and leaving no trace... I've even camped on a posh village green without anyone apparently noticing (setting up and packing away in the dark). I've visited many banned crags discretely as well, where there is no hope of negotiating improved access any time soon.

Yes, but that is not the same as several small groups congregating in the same "nice" spots.

Nobody actually wants to be more restricted, and maybe better enforcement of the current rules and restrictions might solve the problem, but all I am saying is that if the sheer weight of numbers makes the status quo unsustainable then I think further restrictions are inevitable and possibly desirable (the lack of restrictions in Scotland is fantastic but only works because of less pressure of numbers, but I think that even here some restrictions at some times of year are now needed, both roadside and away from the road at some over-used spots).

I wonder if Dartmoor's relative lack of restrictions actually contributes to the problems by making it a honeypot. Just a thought.

What sheer weight of numbers? There is no serious problem with the allowed wild camping under the rules... all the main pressure areas are already restricted, but just not policed. You are doing landowners a favour by conflated the two seperate circumstances (just as they do).

Given the same problems happen in every English national park and widely across the countryside in general, I see no evidence of any negative influence of the special arrangements on Dartmoor.

Ok, if the camping which is against the rules can be contained then obviously that is the best solution. Does the 100m rule work? It strikes me that carrying your stuff 100m from the road is more car-camping than backpacking (sorry, I refuse to use the term wild camping!).

It's not just 100m minimum from the road, it's also not visible from the road with all the other code stipulations...why not read the code before making all this unhelpful speculation that helps the landowners' unfair arguments. The park is particularly encouragingly genuine wild camping (under the code) for longer walks (2 to 3 days).

Must react to the honeypot bit....

Not really a honey pot. Quarter of the day trips that the Lakes see? Maybe a problem of weight of camping happening at a few lazy roadside banned locations, but the vast majority of the moor very much underused and quiet.

I can't think that I have ever had to share a camp location with anyone, except on the very odd occasion during a particular Dartmoor event when the same places are used by different groups sometimes. Even then, late into caml and 0600 start is the norm.

The whole wildcamp thing is very much suited to the moor. There are no handy tarns beside big crags that some might feel tempted to camp near for days at a time. Vast majority stay single nights when on a journey, and the terrain naturally spreads the camp locations out.

The issue is about darned silly places chosen (as OP, for example Hayor), van parking when it's clearly banned, or antisocial behaviour ie fires or litter etc.

That is why it's lack of enforcement that's the issue,  not the need to reduce numbers particularly. Then you need somewhere to send the vans you move on, and there are more than enough potential places for that if decisions are made and fingers pulled out.

Surely this is an argument to liberalise access elsewhere 

Well it might well be if it were a honeypot,  but I've just been told it's not!

This all started with the post from a local at 11:47 Sun saying there is a weight of numbers.  Rather than setting your self up as the opinion-police and turning the discussion into a  political rant against landowners, perhaps consider there might be an issue here to be managed.

So I assume it's not used as a loophole then.

Yet the issues to be managed as described by the OP are illegal roadside camping and illegal overnight stays in car partks and illegal off-road camping (well outside of the Dartmoor code).

I'm no "opinion police" (that's childish ad hom). I'm just expressing a very similar position of concerns (of blatently unfair blaming of problems on those utilising the permissions under the code) and support (to the continuation of code compliant wildcamping) as the Dartmoor National Park, BMC, Ramblers, etc.