UKC

Bravo, Mr Birkett.
http://www.planetfear.com/news_detail.asp?n_id=5410

In reply to Jon Read:

would love to see some pics of his ascent. hope someone got some. it is the most stunning line...

In reply to Jon Read:

hard f8b would make it the same (or harder) than equilibrium which gets e10 (still?)
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel: Congratulations Mr. Birkett. He'll still have to climb Equilibrium to be accepted by the Sheffield mafia though!
Interestingly Birkett rated Breathless on Great Gable as F8a+ and made no change in the grade, but his own Welcome to the cruel World on Scafell is said to be F8b+ and 'only' E9 7a. Obvioulsy WTTCW is better protected, but by the sounds of things, so is Divided Years.
However, grading isn't an exact science and we'd all do well to remember that John Dunne climbed Divided years 10yrs (?) ago and it was as awesome achievement then as it is for Dave Birkett to repeat it recently.

In reply to ally smith:

Theres been plenty of attempts on divided years by all 'the top names' for no one to actually have done it yet. The article says the crux is really bouldery and run out so I guess you can go for a bit of a long whipper. It didn't say secifically whether Dave B had taken some falls off the crux or not. I guess that being a 2 pitch route were talking about a stamina fest rather than absurdly hard climbing we normally get in famous uk high grades (I know its in ireland)
p

In reply to ally smith:

interestingly though, the article says that DY has slopey holds. Breathless was meant to be a crimpy problem which suited Dave Birkett better than JD. Jds a bit good on slopers
p

In reply to ally smith:


I'm trying hard to imagine Mr Birkett up all night, crying into his pillow because he's not accepted by the Sheffield Mafia.

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

>Theres been plenty of attempts on divided years by all 'the top names' for no one to actually have done it yet

Really? I met one 'top name' once who was reported widely to have been on it. He told me he went over for a long weekend climbing with his girlfriend, talked about abbing down DY for a look, it rained all weekend and he never got anywhere nearer the route than a pub in Dublin. I rather suspect other 'attempts' were more of the same.

Great to hear though. Good on DB.

jcm

In reply to Anonymous:

Must have missed him repeating Breathless. So which E10 will be repeated next? Blind Vision, Equilibrium, Dr Doolittle or Rewind? Or have I missed a repeat?

I'm still backing Rewind to be the last!

jcm

In reply to Anonymous:
I met one 'top name' once who was reported widely to have been on it. He told me he went over for a long weekend climbing with his girlfriend, talked about abbing down DY for a look, it rained all weekend and he never got anywhere nearer the route than a pub in Dublin. I rather suspect other 'attempts' were more of the same.

Dear Anonymous

I went down to have a look at Indian Face, but never left the pub. Will I be a "top name" as well?

Norrie

PS John done well, I wonder how long it will take for the 3rd ascent?

In reply to Anonymous:
>... it rained all weekend and he never got anywhere nearer the route than a pub in Dublin.

Sounds much like my attempt.

In reply to Kipper:

I looked at it once.


From about 400 yards away.


Then I thought 'sod it' and did some Hard Severes on Lower Cove instead

In reply to Anonymous:

Equilibrium by Gresham (and Pearson?).

In reply to ally smith:

To be fair to Dunney...he has a mega high first ascent list that has outlasted his peers...including Moffat, Moon, Redhead and I would also include the venerable Dawes...

He has climbed most types of rock eg, sports at Malham, Trad in the Lakes and death routes on grit..

And we're now talking about 2nd ascents of John's route's 10 years on.....

Total respect to JD....Just try repeating his list of top end climbs.....Phew..

In reply to Jonathan T: Yep, both.

In reply to Anonymous:
From
http://www.planetfear.com/article_detail.asp?a_id=325
there is also

Question Mark E10 7a Carn Gowla
FA Mark Edwards
Rpt Ken Palmer (Disputed Grade)

High Fidelity 8c+ E11?? Caley (is it a boulder problem?)
FA Steve Dunning
Rpt Ben Moon

In reply to rc:

's a high ball boulder problem

In reply to rc:
Never given E10 by Edwards at the time, who simply claimed it was French 8c climbing. Later on his Cornish Rock guide gave it E9 7a. Palmer gave it E8 6c, saying it was F8a climbing....

Wouldn't believe an article that gets the location wrong, either. (It's at Cribba Head).

In reply to Keith Roughley:


Ohhh... I love these good ole' classic "who's the best?" arguments - this is what Rocktalk started like before we got on to Palestinian politics and favourite biscuits...

I think there can be little argument about Dunne being Britain's best rock climber of the 1980-90s. But people always compare him to Moon and Moffat. Why? Exceedingly good boulders and sport climbers but not really comparable in terms of Trad climbing. Even Dawes, with the obvious exception of the Indian Face and the Quarryman, was basically a grit specialist.

In terms of hard routes, dangerous routes and "prolific-ness" (if that is a real word) I think the people he should be compared to the unsung heros of UK climbing like John Arran (with an Alpine rock/big wall record to rival anyone in the UK and most outside of it) , Martin Crocker (many repeats of Total Eclipse? I think not), Nick Dixon (why isn't Face Mecca celebarated in the way that the Indian Face is?).

But as to the new king of UK climbing - Birkett or Macleod? Macleod seems to be having the problem that Dunne had for years - that no one can be arsed to repeat his hard routes.

In reply to phatlad:

yeah - I reckon it's a highball too.

BTW: I'm sure I remember seeing a photo somewhere (in his book?) of Ron peeling off the great flake while soloing it, and from my shoddy recollection of that boulder I reckon he was on the top section which would make it near the height of the crux (top) of HF. Presumably the Ron pic was without a mat.

In reply to Peter Walker:
You should let the planetfear guys know.
To be fair to them it does say the list is comprised of all manner of best guesses etc.
It's cool they are trying to put together this record though. The table recording dates of each new trad grade appearing is interesting.

In reply to TobyA:

You seem to be forgetting his routes on Strone Ulladale.

His big routes were all multi pitch epics.

N Wales Volcanic, Slate, Lewisian Gneiss, and Grit hardly makes him a one trick pony.

In reply to Alan Stark: I forgot Hardback Theasaurus as well, but you take my over all point...

In reply to rc:
See now Ron was is and always shall be "the Man"


In reply to TobyA
True Jonny did a lot of stuff on grit, but he also did quite a bit of stuff on slate too. . .
As for awsome climbers the Nadin, you neglected to mention him as a trad, bolt and indoor man one of the best in the world at the time (well he was world champion)
But I take your point about the likes of John Arran, I mean what a climber from E10 to horrendous E6 on sight ground up big wall epics. Still these days I think it's about publicising yourself well. The likes of the 2 Daves are more interested in cragging than photo on cover of mag. And fair play to 'em coz tha's where it counts
(nobody has mentioned Neil Gresh now there's a hard boy)

In reply to ally smith:

What planet are you on? I think Birkett is well respected everywhere for putting the time and effort in, getting these things done and not hyping the f out of it.

From what I've heard on the grapevine, only a couple of 'top names' had a decent go on a rope on Divided Years and they reckoned "8a+ and safe". They got a bit of a slating for not finishing off the job, but it sounds as though their assessment wasn't far off the mark. Remember, Dunney gave it "8c+".

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

http://www.climbonline.co.uk/dave_birkett.htm

Pic here, impressive list of last 6 years climbing.

In reply to phatlad:


These days? Where you around in the 80's? Some climbers even had professional managers then as well as over-inflated grades.

M

In reply to Mick Ryan:
elaborate, Don't recall Nadin having a pro manager, nor big Ron, nor the Dawes (but I am prepared to be corrected)

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

I was going to keep away from this thread before it got into a JD slanging match. JD gave total eclipse 8c+ but not Divided Years as far as I know. Dave Birkett said it felt like hard f8b so alot harder than easy f8a+ which would give it about e8 judging by some of the grades you see on grit routes.
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Have to go kwith Hotbad here, don't think the big man claimed 8c+ for it. And who are we talking about "on the grapevine" who's actually been on it and tried the route and said easy 8a+ but not done it?

In reply to Tom, UKC News Editor:

In reply to ally smith:


I read that as a tongue-in-cheek comment... Somebody please tell me that ally wasn't being serious!

To clear up any confusion:

John Dunne originally said that Divided Years was worth 8c, to quote from a magazine at the time, "John thought the route would be a pumpy 8c on a top rope and combined with the seriousness, justifies the E10 grade." At the time, from the same article, "the upper arete has a dearth of protection," also, "a fall would be potentially fatal".

Compare with the Birketts comments, saying the route was 8b, with "protection literally all over it", huge falls hitting "nothing but air."

In reply to Anonymous:

hard f8b would still get it near to e10 so that'll do me. seeya all on a different thread, and well done Dave Birkett, Judging by the onsights claimed on climbonline hes the best trad onsighter in the country at the moment if not the world
p

In reply to Hotbad Peteel:

Why would 8b get it near E10? Well protected 8b is E8. Even well protected 8b+ is in theory E8. To get to E10 it would need to be poorly protected. John justified E10 by saying it was 8c, with death falls. Now re-read Dave's comments.

In reply to Anonymous:

Those two don't seem to make sense together...

In reply to TobyA:

Yes they do. Just cos it's littered with gear doesn't mean that you waste energy clipping/placing it all if there's no need. Just run it out if it's safe. Some people take massive lobs off sport routes by skipping clips to save energy, it doesn't mean that the bolt's aren't there.

In reply to phatlad:


Dunne had a manager, whose name escapes me at the moment. He told to Dunney to bolt the New Statesman in order to get maximum publicity, I think John ditched him after hearing that!

In reply to SimonW:

And rightly so. But I still say that it's more about publicity than anything else these days. I heard that whilst Francois Legrand was on Kalymnos he "improved" for which you can read drilled out a mono so that he could get the 1st ascent and keep his name riding high with the sponsors. Daves B and Mac like I said seem more interested in craggin than headlines

In reply to phatlad:

The thing is these days people are not constantly pushing the grades as happened in the 1980’s/early 1990’s. The training revolution that began in the 70’s with Livesey and Fawcett and burgeoned with the ‘power revolution’ of the 1980’s meant that standards were constantly increasing so people were always pushing the grade and overgrading things, either deliberately or by mistake, for publicity.

E9 doesn’t raise any eyebrows now, not like it did in the late 1980’s, so the publicity just aint there anymore. Someone would have to climb E11/12 for the same impact as a route such as the Indian Face achieved in 1986.

In reply to phatlad:

That has been going on for years.

In reply to SimonW:
Maybe we're just all used to it due to overload in the media. I remember equilibrium as the 1st E10 on grit raising a few headlines as did slingshot. Though notably Dr. Doolittle didn't so much. Maybe coz John is a quieter chap

In reply to Mick Ryan:

#I know but that doesn't mean it should be any more acceptable

In reply to Anonymous:
That's a relief, I thought for a while there that we were going to have a JD-related thread without someone anonymously slagging him off. Well done for keeping the tradition going.

In reply to phatlad:

Who said it ever was?

In reply to Mick Ryan:

True but I think that "enthusiastic cleaning" has always been acceptable but chipping and drilling has not. that said it still goes on and I suppose we are all to blame for not making enough of a fuss about it.

In reply to Jon Read: Well dunne Dave Birkett, John thought it would be a time before anyone did a repeat, Im sure he will be pleased for Dave!

Grades who cares, great climbing....

Stu

In reply to Peter Walker:

No its not.

Its at Carn Vellan.

Might be worth sending a recorrection of your correction into the Planetfear authors.

AJM

In reply to AJM: My dear sir/madam, I think you'll find that Question Mark is at Cribba. It's Rewind that's at Carn Vellan.

So I don't think I'll be sending a recorrection to the correction I didn't send.

In reply to phatlad:

Speak for yourself. Cleaning pockets of crozzles can be defined as "enthusiastic cleaning".

In reply to Jon Read:

I think John Dunne is an amazing climber. I recently read he was getting into Alpine and Winter stuff. I'd like to see John repeat Dave MacLeod's winter ascent of the Hurting on Fiacaill buttress which gets E4 6a in summer! What is it, Scottish XI?
Also Dave has recently put up a new E8 on the Comb on the Ben and has his eye on it as a future winter line!
If he does it, and based on his performance in Sneachda there's no reason to doubt it, will he be accepted as the best alrounder in the uk right now?

In reply to Mick Ryan:
True but drilling it out isn't. It's a tricky line to walk. Pete Livesey's infamous "cleaning" of DownHill Racer didn't really lead to him being villified

In reply to Jon Read:

It would be intersting to see some of the top Euro climbers having a go. Although not a sport route it seems relatively safe for a very hard trad route. These routes deserve more ascents, otherwise top end British (Isles) trad climbing remains a backwater on the international scene. IMHO it would be good for world climbing as a whole if these achievments gained international recognition.

In reply to phatlad:

Pete Liversausage didn't chip Downhill Racer.........that was one of those Peakies.

He cooked chips, quite good ones.

In reply to Mick Ryan:

lol mick you need help

In reply to phatlad:

Really.....I think you may find that I interviewed PL for an article all about chipping.

In reply to Peter Walker:

My apologies. I saw Mark Edwards, and E10, knew the only one was Rewind, and assumed the "question mark" was because they didn't know its name - they seem to have got enough else wrong with the description that I figured it was a fair assumption.

Are PF the only people who think QM is E10 then?

AJM

In reply to Mick Ryan:
I was giggling about liversausage

In reply to AJM: When QM was done, Mark Edwards said it was "solid 8c, if bolted". Considering the gear consists of (I think) some dodgy skyhooks at the top, if the 8c bit was actually true then E10 might be on the conservative side! But Ken Palmer repeated it, said 8a climbing, and gave it E8 6c. I think he padded the landing with (amongst other things) an inflatable plastic shark.

Mind you, KP does have a reputation as quite a harsh grader.....

In reply to kevin stephens:

It would be, but it's unlikely to happen. Why would they bother? there's stacks of hard routes on the continent, and 8b on good gear wouldn't be thought of as significant - there's lots of them in the alps, many even more remote, at altitude, with worse rock.

In reply to Agent Moog:
Just watched the Big Issue for the first time in years. It says the Divided Years wall is coated in possible E7s. Have they now been done?
Also has the line at Ilkley left of the New Statesman been led which John tries to top-rope at the end of the film?

In reply to john alcock at home:


Nope

In reply to Alan Stark:
Not to mention all the chossy death routes he did with Paul Pritchard on Anglesey.

In reply to I am the God of Strathyre: when he onsights more than 10 E7's and climbs E10 then yes.

In reply to ally smith: wttcw is 8A+

In reply to jubawix:

Who's the alternative? You?

In reply to Jon Read:

Steve Crowe has an interesting account...

"Steve Crowe of Climbonline.co.uk accompanied Dave Birkett to Ireland recently where he belayed and photographed Dave on his repeat of Divided Years. Steve has a short personal account of the climbing on Divided Years and some photos at Climbonline. More of Steve's photos will be published in the October issue of Climber Magazine out early September."

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to TobyA: Julian Lines is a bit of an unsung king of rock as well

In reply to Mick Ryan:
Thanks for the tip off, Mick. More here:
http://climbonline.co.uk/news.htm

Another good shot at
http://www.mournesclimbers.com/modules.php?name=News
which gives a good sense of scale to the affair. (Is that a top-rope?)

In reply to Jon Read: The top rope looks well dodgy?
Whats the story as the Steve Crowe article is very vague?

In reply to little_jo:
Jeesypeeps! It actually looks more like an ab / jug line for a photographer than a toprope. Besides, where's the moral outrage coming from? Not as if DB can reach it...