UKC

Hi.

I recently watched a video of a climber (Pete Whittaker I think) extending a nut, or a clip, with a stick to extend his reach on a placement.

I'm interested in this as on a particular climb my friend can reach a fairly crucial nut placement that I cannot. He is 6ft4 I'm 5ft11 so this happens fairly frequently.

I could easily rig a similar little device to reach the same gear. 

Has anyone done this? What worked best?

Is it ethical? Is there a ready made device for this? 

Any thoughts let me know.

I don't  think it really happens that often but a good trick if you need to do it (I think I've done this twice in 25 years) is to use a second nut.  You have the nuts facing opposite directions and you pass the head of each nut through the loop of the other.  When you pull these through you end up with something looking like a reef knot between the loops.  This allows you to reach a bit further.  Obviously placing nuts where you can't see how they are seated is not best practice.

As for ethics, its more a question of style than ethics I'd have thought.

Not seen the video you're on about so I don't know what the stick was, but you can always thread a wire through the loop of another wire (effectively larksfooting it) if you only need a few inches extra.  Use a large-ish wire for the lower one to give adequate stiffness while you're stretching to place it. In terms of ethics, if you can carry it up the climb with you, or hang on and pull it up on another rope, seems fair game to me!

(Edit: Graham beat me to it)

This reminds me of a quote from, Don Whillans I think, who was on the short side, when asked in an interview what did he do if he couldn't reach a hold he said "I just climb up to it" or words to that affect.

Al

It was joe brown.

there was also a famous quote from someone famous who said, “any protection  above your head is top roping”.

Thanks. I've never thought of that before I'll definitely try that. For this climb it's only a couple if inches extra that is want.  This sounds like it's something you could do at any time as opposed  to the pre prepared extended stick idea that I had.

Cheers

You might want to ask Paul Mitchell - occasional poster on here - about the first ascent of Greedy Pig at Froggatt. As I recall, it involved a huge stick to place an obvious nut at maybe 20ft. I believe he later repeated it without stick-placing the nut, but it had already caused quite a stir by then.

But didn't he or Brown place a nut with a stick on Elder Crack?

Yeah, that'll be Pete Whittaker on Baron Greenback. It's on YouTube: https://youtu.be/e2es_JX_Hcw?t=1m27s

He was clipping old aid bolts rather than placing a nut, though. Suspect that placing a nut that way would be trickier, especially if it's one that needs a good tug to get seated. Also, having a stick attached might make it more likely to get knocked out of place again afterwards.

So did we. I think it'd be the early eighties. There was a stick lying in the bottom of the crack left there for the very purpose. 

Don and Joe were far from perfect in some of their hardest ascents. They were astonishing climbers but not a part of some mythic ethical golden age.

I'm not saying it was cheating; inventive and apposite yes! 

Greedy Pig was a case of competition in the form of Dominica and Daniel Lee.They happened to turn up and watch me cleaning the route.Oops,thought I...   I was going to solo the  crux,which is  pretty lethal for somebody my height,when a member of my posse suggested the stick.Cowardice won the day.

    In general,a kitchen wooden spoon with a karabiner held in place by a  few rubber bands is a pretty effective extension.

Wrong.Brown limited  his attempts on Cloggy Great Wall to only 2 pegs per pitch.Crew robbed the route with multiple pegs.

Unless a very obvious placement, I wouldn't like to try and do something like that.

Also trad grades take all that into account, so it is kind of cheating the grade. You may as well pre-place the gear from above with a runner on before leading. That way you'd be able to reach it and know it was good. IMO that would be ethically no different from using artificial aid to place a piece. 

Being less unethical than someone else doesn't make one fully ethical Paul. I've nothing against what any climber did as long as it was honestly reported and didn't damage the rock. However any golden age talk of onsight FA ethical behaviour is a myth.

Pete Crew of course has a route cruelly named after his pegging.

Reef knotting nuts for a few inches extra reach  is hadly uncommon practice, especialy for shorter climbers and definitely does not affect the grade. If anything trad grads are for those who can reach (unless the reach is only for giants) so short climbers are often climbing a grade or two harder compared to a guidebook label. In some cases grades explicitly include a standard 'cheat' eg Profit of Doom is E4 in the BMC definitive but E5 if gear is placed onsight by short climbers (Rockfax say E4 but a grade easier if preplaced... ridiculous.. its still at least E4)

Thanks. I'm going to practice the reef knot idea.

I don't think it can be too unethical to place a piece of gear another climber could reach by using two nuts together.... gear which is already on the rack.  That seems like making it more dangerous for the sake of it. 

So......nobody EVER did a purely on sight  new route? Really? Just pick a line from the ground,set off and get up the route without weighting the gear? What was that Bancroft E4 on Chew valley that he  led on sight,brushing as he climbed?

Profit was usually done with an extended wire in the 70’s early 80’s. I might be wrong but in the picture in extreme rock I think you can see this.

So you've never tried to launch a hex into a crack just out of reach, or throw a sling over a chockstone?

'Robbed'? 

Yep.Robbed.  Are you getting a head of steam up about that? Who was it named that climb Crew Pegs Diffs?More steam?

Oh all the time. Throwing krabs on slings over out-of-reach saplings is my jam (I even said this on the clipstick thread).

I wasn't asking the question though. 

Didn't even Menlove Edwards "free" Munich Climb of the aid piton placed by dastardly Germans by using a toprope thrown round the (loose) block above?

At 5ft 11 you aren't short enough to warrant a stick.... What route is this you speak of and how crucial is the nut? I'd say your friend is lucky to reach a "crucial" runner that the average height climber cannot reach and asks the question is it truly a crucial runner or can you climb up to it...

Edit: this route must be seriously dangerous if only people 6ft 4 tall can reach the crucial runner

Whatever works and keeps you safe seems perfectly okay to me. 

I've used the nuts threaded back through on themselves technique to extend gear to where I could reach it. 

I've also used parabolic motion on a hex requiring about 20 attempts until I managed to lob it overhead into the crack the right way round.

My best one to date though, was a hex balanced on the end of an ice axe placed into the crack that I couldn't reach using my hands and then walloped into place with the hammer of the axe

I can see why you might find an extra long wooden spoon useful!