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Graded list of crags

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 Jon Stewart 23 Jun 2012
The more different crags I go to, the more ridiculous the inconsistencies of the grading system seem. I don't think the system can be objective, and I like the daft quirks of sandbag crags and those where they're giving away E-points for free, but some stuff is just silly.

How about compiling a graded list of crags/areas according to how harsh the grades are? Here's a start:

(Northumberland? Haven't been)
Yorkshire Grit
Western Grit
Tremadog
The Lakes
Culm slabs (excluding Crimtyphon!)
Cornish Granite
Peak Limestone
Eastern Grit (average, wide variations!)
Gogarth (average)
Pembroke
Diabaig and NW gneiss
Slate
Reiff
Sheigra
Lower Sharpnose

I reckon there's about 4 grades of difference in how stuff is graded from the top to the bottom of this list! Let's see how wrong I am...
 The Ivanator 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart: Interesting idea. A few additional crags/areas:
Swanage (near/at the top)
Avon (slightly harder than par)
North Wales Mountain Routes (middling)
Wye Valley (quite crag dependent but middling overall)
Gower Limestone (generally softish)
 MarkRoe 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I totally agree!

The most productive trip i've ever been on was one to the Dirnorwic slate quarries where I got a good number E2 and E3 onsights in just a few days. My last trip (and only) trip to Northumberland sandstone however I got my pants pulled down, failing on grades I would like to think i'm solid at.

It probably has something to do with what suits my style and what dosen't as well though.

P.S. Add Windgather Rocks to the very very bottom of that list!

 mmmhumous 23 Jun 2012
In reply to MarkRoe:

Definitely. The Difference between a Windgather VD (M-VD) and a Wilton Vdiff (HVD-HVS)can be rather disconcerting.
 Dave 88 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Someone on here once said that adding a grade to everything at Avon would be about right! I'm sure it was tongue in cheek but it always seems to feel tough and serious.

Wye Valley on the whole seems fair.

I don't think you can lump eastern grit together. Stanage-Soft, Curbar-Nails, Millstone somewhere in the middle. Not to mention all the odd grades you get on grit due to the height and some of the run out horror shows.

Dartmoor granite- Fair from what I've done, apart from Climber's bloody club direct.
OP Jon Stewart 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Dave 88:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
>
> I don't think you can lump eastern grit together. Stanage-Soft, Curbar-Nails, Millstone somewhere in the middle. Not to mention all the odd grades you get on grit due to the height and some of the run out horror shows.

I think you're right.

How about:

Curbar
Higgar Tor
Stanage End
Cratcliffe
Gardoms
Millstone
Stanage Plantation
Frogatt
Rivelin
Bamford
Burbage North
Stanage Popular
Birchen



 Dave 88 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Not been to all of those, but looks about spot on. Maybe swap Millstone and Froggatt if I'm being picky!
OP Jon Stewart 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Dave 88: Yes, Froggat's a funny one. I think of it as quite soft (Tody's Wall, Sunset Slab, 3PS) but on the other hand there are the crack horrors: Valkyrie and Chequers. Millstone is more consistent as a 'firm but fair' crag I think.
 yer maw 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart: A wee bit of inconsistency between crags does no one any harm unless your ego gets dented easily.

A pointless task.
2
OP Jon Stewart 23 Jun 2012
In reply to yer maw:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart) A wee bit of inconsistency between crags does no one any harm unless your ego gets dented easily.
>
> A pointless task.

Err, yes. Welcome to the internet. As I said above,

> I don't think the system can be objective, and I like the daft quirks of sandbag crags and those where they're giving away E-points for free.
 yer maw 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart: But then why start a list if you don't mind it? Each to their own I suppose.
OP Jon Stewart 23 Jun 2012
In reply to yer maw:

That's the kind of thing I do for rainy day entertainment. Let's face it, on here I am not alone in that.
 Dave 88 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yeah agreed, they were exactly the two routes I was thinking of!

Yer maw- It's just a bit of fun. What else are we gonna do.
 Andy Moles 23 Jun 2012
I reckon in Scotland as a rule of thumb, the longer ago it was developed, the tougher the grading.
 Trangia 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

From my own experience I certainly agree with Northumberland Sandstone being near or at the top of the list in terms of harshness. I've only been for one three day visit, but was shocked to find myself being spanked on mere V Diffs which seemed like HVSs!

Swanage is a strange one, and I think a lot of it is phsycological particularly in the Ruckle. First comes an ab into the abyss towards the pounding sea and crazy jumble of boulders - surely one of the most unfriendly landings in the country? And the ab in at Marmolata end is overhanging transforming you from a sunny grassy cliff top into an intimidating arena from which every route is (or looks) overhanging and there is the knowledge that there is no easy escape other than prusiking. The feeling of commitment is high, so although the climbing is probably consistent with the grade, your mindset is already subdued, even cowed. There is very little under VS, so you need to be at least comfortable at this grade or above to enjoy yourself. Then the top out is often on dodgy rock/earth, so all in all you come away with a feeling of awe.

N Wales and the Lake District seem about right to me.

Cornwall and Lundy again pleasant and about right, particularly if the sun is shining. Doesn't a nice day buck up your morale?

Gritstone always seems holdless to me and is very much an acquired taste. I prefer Derbyshire limestone like Wildcat. Similarly the limestone of Wye valley is pleasant and about right.

Southern sandstone is in a class of it's own, very much an acquired taste and difficult to really compare with other areas as there is no leading on it. So the headgame is low/non existant, but the technicality often high.

Scottish sandstone on the west coast is about right for the grade, as is the gabro of the Cuillins, although the later is often more unstable than it appears to be due to frost loosening of the rock.
OP Jon Stewart 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Trangia:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Swanage is a strange one...

I haven't been, and I'm not very likely to since Pembroke is easier to get to (although I could get into DWS). Do folks think somewhere just above the middle of the list?
>
> N Wales and the Lake District seem about right to me.

I find N Wales varies greatly according to rock type, and the Lakes often seems harsh. Lately, I've done The Bludgeon, Saxon (real struggle on the crux for me), and heard stories of how hard the East Buttress E1s are (Phoenix and Leverage). Aardvark is completely nails for E1, Cruel Sister pretty damn scary at E3 (but the right grade), White Gyhll Eliminate felt 6a, only Ichabod felt normal at the grade to me (but not easy). I have done a few soft touches in the Lakes too, but compared to say NW Scotland, I'd say E1 (Lakes) and E3 (NW) were roughly equivalent.

> Cornwall and Lundy again pleasant and about right, particularly if the sun is shining. Doesn't a nice day buck up your morale?

Certainly does. Everything is better with the sun out. But the grades at Bosigran are still nails! Bow Wall 5b!?? Top pitch of Thin Wall Special 5a?!! Carn Barra on the other hand seemed soft...Chair Ladder somewhere in between (although I had to give up on West Face Direct, although conditions could be to blame, if they ever are, really).

Not been to Lundy, where should it go in the list?
>
> Gritstone always seems holdless to me

It is a law unto itself. Seems to me every crag and every grade has routes that are trivial, while others are completely impossible - and often because the moves are absurdly hard rather than the proximity of the ground and the lack of gear for the crux.
>

> Scottish sandstone on the west coast is about right for the grade,

Reiff? The grades I encountered were ludicrously soft. VSs that were VDiff, E3s that were HVS. The odd correctly graded route thrown in (e.g. Seal Song) just to keep you on your toes.


 Trangia 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to Trangia)
> [...]
>
> I haven't been, and I'm not very likely to since Pembroke is easier to get to (although I could get into DWS). Do folks think somewhere just above the middle of the list?
> [...]

I'd say slightly above the middle due to the phycological effect I described
>
> I find N Wales varies greatly according to rock type, and the Lakes often seems harsh. Lately, I've done The Bludgeon, Saxon (real struggle on the crux for me), and heard stories of how hard the East Buttress E1s are (Phoenix and Leverage). Aardvark is completely nails for E1, Cruel Sister pretty damn scary at E3 (but the right grade), White Gyhll Eliminate felt 6a, only Ichabod felt normal at the grade to me (but not easy). I have done a few soft touches in the Lakes too, but compared to say NW Scotland, I'd say E1 (Lakes) and E3 (NW) were roughly equivalent.
>
> [...]
>

My experience still suggests about right, so middle of list for both
> Certainly does. Everything is better with the sun out. But the grades at Bosigran are still nails! Bow Wall 5b!?? Top pitch of Thin Wall Special 5a?!! Carn Barra on the other hand seemed soft...Chair Ladder somewhere in between (although I had to give up on West Face Direct, although conditions could be to blame, if they ever are, really).

Bosigran is about right, although I found top pitch of LBJ hard. Ochre Slab 2nd pitch was scary to say the least! On the other hand Commando Ridge is easy apart from the first pitch where the sea rushes up the zawn with a fearful roar and tries to grab you as you scamper up it like a frightened rabbit!
>
> Not been to Lundy, where should it go in the list?
> [...]

Middle ish. Devils slide is overgraded - more like an Idwal Slabs V Diff.
>
> >
> [...]
>
> Reiff? The grades I encountered were ludicrously soft. VSs that were VDiff, E3s that were HVS. The odd correctly graded route thrown in (e.g. Seal Song) just to keep you on your toes.

My experience here is limited, but Old Man of Stoer is spot on at VS unless you do the first traverse pitch which is a good greasy HVS 5a and difficult to stay on for both leader and second.

 MarkRoe 23 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Also,
I think the general consensus is that in terms of Rhyolite, the Lakes tends to be much more difficult for the grade than Wales from around E2/3 upwards. Right Wall for example would never get E5 in the Lakes. I've heard stories of E5/6 welsh climbers huge wobbles on Pavey and Gimmer test pieces like Fallen Angel.
 leon 24 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

So Lower Sharpnose would be the place to go to back my first e3?
OP Jon Stewart 24 Jun 2012
In reply to leon:

It certainly would. I did Diamond Smiles the other day and found it easier than the E1 I did in the Lakes a couple of days earlier.

Brainless wall climbing on big holds, about 6a down the wall, bags of gear. Enormous fun!
 leon 24 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Great. Looks like a really good venue to. Maybe at that kind of currency exchange I could maybe bag my first e4 too..... Just need to find the time to write a begging letter on lifts and partners now.
 DaveHK 24 Jun 2012
In reply to Andy Moles:
> I reckon in Scotland as a rule of thumb, the longer ago it was developed, the tougher the grading.

There isn't much of this left now. In the past perhaps scottish grades were tough but nowadays I think they're easy compared to say Northumberland or Yorkshire.

My feeling is that the more traffic a route has the tougher it will be graded as familiarity breeeds contempt. The places with the toughest grades all have a strong local scene who climb the same routes regularly and thus find them easy and find it difficult to apply the grade as an onsight grade. The flip side is that most grades at the likes of Reiff are the first ascentionists grade with all that this implies.

Both are understandable but it makes for inconsistanacy

 DaveHK 24 Jun 2012
In reply to leon:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> So Lower Sharpnose would be the place to go to back my first e3?

Can I recommend Fay at that grade
 Andy Moles 24 Jun 2012
In reply to DaveHK:

Agree with all that, I only meant tougher in comparison with the likes of Reiff etc.
 DaveHK 24 Jun 2012
In reply to Andy Moles:

Yes, you're right. Ever tried some of the 'old' routes in Glen Nevis?
 Andy Moles 24 Jun 2012
In reply to DaveHK:

I've backed off an HVS there, I hope it was an old one!
 Dave 88 24 Jun 2012
In reply to leon:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> So Lower Sharpnose would be the place to go to back my first e3?

Exactly what I was thinking!

 Jonny2vests 25 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I'd probably put Swanage lower down. I don't think the Ruckle is any more intimidating than say Range West or many Limestone sea cliffs, I think it gets a bad rep because pasty Londoners go there and get spanked. The climbing is mostly technically easy on big holds.

So you had a good time at Sharpnose then? Love that place, very soft I agree.

Tremadog also down and Cornish Granite up. Pembroke in the bottom 3.
 The Ivanator 25 Jun 2012
In reply to jonny2vests: Well you seem to have a particular aptitude for Swanage climbing, it seems whenever there is a thread about how hard SWanage is you pop up to say how you climb 2 grades harder there!
It certainly suits the strong and fit, but in general I think most find the grading pretty tough (although there are soft touches to be had). It is no coincidence that the Swanage grades "ouch" threads appear on a regular basis and Rockfax's introductory advice to drop your leading grade by a couple of notches is generally wise. As mentioned earlier it is partly the intimidation factor, those that find sustained steepness challenging are always going to struggle to match their efforts elsewhere whilst at Swanage.
FWIW I thought Ogmore considerably more intimidating than Swanage and the grading of the few routes I've done there seemed tough too - Pinocchio seemed tough at HVS, apparently it was VS for years!
 Jonny2vests 25 Jun 2012
In reply to The Ivanator:

Fair enough. I really don't get the intimidation thing though. It's vertical on average, as Limestone tends to be, it's not massive, it's not 'wild' compared to say Carn Gowla and there's people everywhere.
 The Ivanator 25 Jun 2012
In reply to jonny2vests: On first acquaintance lots of people I've taken to Swanage have found it a pretty intimidating place - that is not my personal impression, though I find the steep climbing doesn't flatter my lead grade.
I don't generally feel intimidated by venues, though Ogmore did spook me a little ...a combination of dubious rock quality, massive tidal range, strenuous steep climbing and a free hanging abseil above a pavement of wave washed limestone pinnacles - waiting to skewer you if you should make a mistake. All a complete contrast to the mellow green lawns at the top of the crag.
Keen to sample Carn Gowla this year, a Journey to Ixtlan beckons.
 CurlyStevo 25 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I'd have to agree with reiff and sheigra being very soft on the whole. Sheigra especially, I've done Severes at Swanage with significantly harder climbing and less well protected than the VS climbs I lead there.

Swanage I think is harder grades than the yorkshire grit venues I've been to.
 Reach>Talent 25 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Curbar
Ramshaw
Higgar Tor
Roaches
Stanage End
Cratcliffe
Millstone
Stanage Plantation
Frogatt
Rivelin
Bamford
Newstones/Baldstones
Gardoms
Burbage North
Stanage Popular
Birchen

A few additions to the grit list. Stuff in bold is new, underlined stuff is moved and italic is stuff I've not tried.
 Offwidth 25 Jun 2012
In reply to Reach>Talent:

Birchen at the bottom: thats two of you now! Bloody fighting talk!! How many of the newly graded routes have you seen??? Stanage Popular is noticably much easier now.

Trafalgar Slab and Powder Monkey Parade back at Severe; Rat Line back at HVS; Sail Buttress, Nelson's Slab, Nelson's Nemesis, Camperdown Crawl, Barnacle Bulge and The Long Promenade back at HS....the only famous 'soft' one we didnt downgrade was Topsail (I still think this is no pushover for your average VS leader as a true onsight). The new boulder problems are reputably even harder graded than the routes but I'm not good enough to comment (I even recall it may have been Jon commenting on how hard some of these were?).

grrrrrr

PS I think some crags have a lot of classics at the top of a grade (Hen Cloud and HVS springs to mind) that can make them feel harder than they are... Hen Cloud is highish on any Peak list anyhow.
 Mark Kemball 25 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart: I have to take issue with Lower Sharpnose being regarded as "soft". It's a fitness thing - if you're super-fit, wall trained with loads of stamina, then yes, it's soft. However personally, I found Fay desperate for E4, and would put it at its old grade of E5. Conversely, I find Culm slabs relatively easy - again, it's a fitness thing, you don't have to be super-fit to climb slabs, you just need good technique and a cool head for the run-outs. So, your graded list would be different to mine!
OP Jon Stewart 25 Jun 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
>
> So you had a good time at Sharpnose then? Love that place, very soft I agree.

Yes, but only had one shortish session there (bloody tides). Need to get back asap, one of the UK's best I think. Such brilliant clean walls of rock, such friendly, brainless climbing. And the soft grades are another bonus!
>
> Tremadog also down

I haven't done much there, but after the Weaver (done in a one-er), I could hardly walk let alone climb anything else. 5b for 40m, except two 5c cruxes! Found that Vector groove really perplexing, especially in the state I arrived at it in. Found The Plum really hard too, similarly sustained. I've heard First Slip is pretty hard at E1 too, and Extraction is meant to be tough? Seems really hard to me!

> and Cornish Granite up.

Funny one. Last year, I found it all desperate, especially Bosi...if Bow Wall is 5b I'll eat my rack. But went to Carn Barra this year which was soft, and a much more straightforward style of climbing. I can't really say on average, as I haven't done a lot, but it's probably above the Lakes (I've just had a few recent struggles there).

> Pembroke in the bottom 3.

I find Pembroke pretty fair although definitely on the softer side of things. The bottom 3 (Reiff, Sheigra and Sharpnose) are so soft they're just flagrantly incorrect. Pembroke E1 is about Sheigra/Sharpnose E2 I reckon, so they're not the same bracket for me.
OP Jon Stewart 25 Jun 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
> (In reply to mkean)
>
> Birchen at the bottom: thats two of you now! Bloody fighting talk!! How many of the newly graded routes have you seen??? Stanage Popular is noticably much easier now.

Sorry - I know those grades have been sorted out by the last guide, but I remember them at the grades I climbed them at.

> (I even recall it may have been Jon commenting on how hard some of these [bouldering grades] were?).

Yep, Birchen V4 is bloody nails for me, but V4 elsewhere is OK.
>
> grrrrrr

Actually I thought you'd take offence at the whole idea!

> PS I think some crags have a lot of classics at the top of a grade (Hen Cloud and HVS springs to mind) that can make them feel harder than they are... Hen Cloud is highish on any Peak list anyhow.

Oh yes. Whether it is a coincidence that the routes are at the top of the grade at Hen Cloud, or whether it is a tradition that hard hand jamming cracks in the Peak are always graded HVS regardless of difficulty, is debatable though.

I seconded the Mincer today. That was much harder than leading the E1/2s I did. It was disgusting, as I had always suspected (and thus avoided it up 'til now).

OP Jon Stewart 25 Jun 2012
In reply to Mark Kemball:

What about the agony in the feet meted out by Culm slabs? That's what I found hard about them, rather than the run-outs. I reckon I'm good at slabs compared to other stuff, but I was just screaming to myself "get me out of here, this is f^cking horrific!".
 Jonny2vests 25 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I had planned to onsight my first decent length E5 at Sharpnose this year (Pacemaker), but I accidentally moved to Canada. Did Crooked Mile there last year, which somehow gets E4 5c/6a, but is a total romp at that grade.

Carn Barra is super inconsistent. From the mega soft (Fourteen Fathoms, Marisco Striptease, Illustrated Man, Dialectic) to the absolute bugger (Sunny Corner Lane, Grand Plage). I might find it different now as they were all a while back, SCL was one of my first E3s and marked me psychologically.

At Bosi, Raven Wall deserved its upgrade to E3 and don't talk to me about Kafoozalem

@Mark Kemball: You are absolutely right, its all style dependent and yes, I am a fan of the great indoors. I am also utterly shite at runout slabs, despite the fact I moved from the Peak to Squamish. Happily, cracks keep me sane.
OP Jon Stewart 25 Jun 2012
In reply to Mark Kemball:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart) I have to take issue with Lower Sharpnose being regarded as "soft". It's a fitness thing - if you're super-fit, wall trained with loads of stamina, then yes, it's soft.

> So, your graded list would be different to mine!

Certainly true that one man's soft [insert grade] is a run-out slab, while another's is a thuggy crack you can lace. But at the extremes of the list, I think the grades are miles out.

I did train indoors this year, and I guess it's made me fitter, but I can still get pretty pumped on a hard E2 or proper E3 (of the pumpy variety). They should be around f6b+/c I guess (the hard ones). The ones at Sharpnose felt no harder than f6a.

Indeed, I'm surprised that people agree as much as they have so far, I would have thought there'd be loads of "you only think that 'cause you're clearly shit at climbing cracks", etc. (I am, but I'm getting a bit better).
 Offwidth 26 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Move Birchen on your list then ! Matinee next??

Taking offence at this would be silly. I like to bring reality back to grading and remove sandbags but average grades obviously vary from area to area. Also its not just grades either: part of what makes places like Stanage so easy is the chalked holds, clean rock and watching several people on a route before its your turn; it all gives a false perception to your average genuine gritstone onsight.
 Reach>Talent 26 Jun 2012
In reply to Offwidth:
Stanage Popular at the bottom! Bloody fighting talk!!

Actually I probably wouldn't disagree with you there
 Calder 26 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Where do you sit with Lancashire quarries? Just curious like....
OP Jon Stewart 26 Jun 2012
In reply to Calder:

Dunno, never been.

How do they compare to other grit say? More like Yorkshire quarries (which I haven't tried either, but I'd be flabbergasted if they weren't just one massive sandbag - and scattered with syringes and johnnies of course), or more like Millstone etc?
 Calder 26 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Hmm, I don't think it's wholly unfair in terms of grading. Not a pushover because it's generally pretty steep and uncompromising, but probably not unreasonable if you're properly warmed up and feeling good. Similar to Cornish Granite, maybe?

When you're having an off day though it'll slap you silly!
OP Jon Stewart 26 Jun 2012
In reply to Reach>Talent:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)

OK, here's another attempt at the peak grit list. I've put in a few moorland crags but I haven't been to very many. Never climbed at Wimberry - high on the list?

Curbar
Hen Cloud
Ramshaw
Kinder
Higgar Tor
Newstones/Baldstones (I'm thinking bouldering here: nails!)
Stanage End
Roaches
Cratcliffe
Millstone
Stanage Plantation
Shining Clough
Standing Stones
Frogatt
Gardoms (sandbags include Eye of Faith, and that bloody awful traverse out of Perfect Day)
Birchen (it does have it's sandbag, Orpheus Wall, after all)
Rivelin
Bamford
Burbage North
Stanage Popular





 Jonny2vests 27 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Black Rocks? Below Higgar maybe.
Birchen is easy, but its not soft.
Froggatt not Frogatt

When is the Limestone list coming out?
Stephen Kenny 27 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Used to do a bit of climbing in the Seventies and remember doing a VS at Widdop called Ceiling Crack which seemed a bit tough for the grade (probably a Whillans' route!).
 Tyler 27 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Never climbed at Wimberry - high on the list?

Yep, fr the walk in if nothing else! It also tends to stay pretty green and scrittly these days
OP Jon Stewart 27 Jun 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
>
> Black Rocks?

Doesn't make it onto the list. Crap routes (unless you climb silly hard I guess), peeping out of a sea of broken glass and dogshit. On other people's behalf, I'm incredibly grateful for all the cleaning up that goes on, but personally, I'll just go and climb somewhere nice; where no one will throw spliff butts and lager cans at me when I'm about to slide off some hideously polished unprotected crux.


> When is the Limestone list coming out?

All seems consistent to me. Grade inversely proportional to size of holds. Do you reckon there's variation?
 Jonny2vests 27 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:
> (In reply to jonny2vests)
> [...]

> All seems consistent to me. Grade inversely proportional to size of holds. Do you reckon there's variation?

Good point, it is strangely consistent. How boring.

 Budge 27 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Lets not let your bizarre prejudices exclude great crags. Just because you have a downer on a Black Rocks (in fact the whole Matlock area) doesn't make it worthless, it has the best collection of VSs south of Stanage. Certainly on the stiff side, as is Burbage South (well the cracks not Millwheel Wall) which has been missed out as well
 Budge 27 Jun 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:

I'd agree that tremadog while not being soft is not that hard, although I to found Weaver harsh when I'd done a fair few other E2s there. I've never found Pembroke that soft but that's maybe because it finds out my lack of strength.

Swanage I've found intimidating rather than hard and it does have soft touchs ie Quality Street.


I'd agree that the Lakes are generally stiffer than North Wales and not just in the higher grades
OP Jon Stewart 28 Jun 2012
In reply to jonny2vests:
> (In reply to Jon Stewart)
> [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Good point, it is strangely consistent. How boring.

Actually, on reflection, there is some variation in Peak lime.

Something like:


Stoney
Rheinstor
Dovedale
Willersley
Wildcat
High Tor
Chee Tor
Pic Tor
Staden
Beeston


or something. I've only done a couple of routes on a few of those, but there's definitely a world of difference between Stoney and Beeston. Flakes Direct is way harder than the E3s (or f6bs) at Beeston. And Pocket Symphony is about f5.



 Jonny2vests 29 Jun 2012
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Yeah. And Black Grub is about 6a+. Good list.

Cheedale isn't that soft, probably middling. Are we counting sport?

If so, you also forgot Horseshi.... never mind.

Graded list of climbing walls anyone?

Craggy Island
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The Foundry

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