UKC

You're belaying in guide mode, and need to lower your second to the ground. Suppose that you're on a hanging stance (can't easily use your body weight to release the device) and also that the second is unable to get their weight off the rope (can't redirect the load strand). Any thoughts?

In reply to bpmclimb: Isn't that exactly what a pivot is supposed to make a lot easier compared to a reverso or whatever?

In reply to bpmclimb:

DMM Pivot?

EDIT: Posted this at exactly the same time as wbo2!

In reply to bpmclimb:

You can wriggle the screwgate to move the rope through by small ammounts. It's a ballache...

In reply to bpmclimb:

You can attach a sling to the hole and use mechanical advantage through the anchor to lower.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Cut'n'paste from my teaching handouts:

The plate locks when it is loaded, and to lower a second you need to rotate the plate to release the dead rope.  Plates have a loop at the back to allow you to clip a krab or sling, to make this easier (beware - they’re often quite small and won’t accommodate chunky krabs at all).

For some plates, this is all the leverage you need - DMM’s Pivot releases quite easily.  For others you need more force to rotate them - the best way is to attach a sling to the the back loop, direct this through another krab on your powerpoint, and clip it to your harness - so sitting back pulls on the sling and rotates the plate.  If hanging, make this a foot loop and stand in it.

In all cases, the locking effect is removed very sharply and it’s quite easy to lose control of the dead rope.  To remedy this, clip the dead rope into (another) krab on the powerpoint to redirect it.  Then tie a French prusik around it and fasten the prusik to your harness belay loop.  To lower the second, lean back (to weight the sling that rotates the plate) and slide the prusik simultaneously.

When setting this up, always put the French prusik on the dead rope before you set up the sling to release the plate; if you accidentally leant on the sling while tying the prusik you’ll drop your second!

In reply to bpmclimb:

1) tie a knot in the brake rope.

2) Put a French prussik on the tight rope between the plate and the climber. 

3) clip a sling to the prussik and clip that to the belay master point.

4) release the plate, using a QuickDraw, and transfer load to sling/prussik.

5) pay out more slack and put into Italian hitch, clipped to main point on the belay.

6) remove Reverso and untie back up knots.

7) take in slake with Italian Hitch and release French prussik.

8) remove French prussik and sling.

9) carefully/slowly lower climber to deck. 

In reply to bpmclimb:

Thanks to all for replies. It was specifically the hanging stance and continuously weighted rope scenario I had in mind - not so much guide mode operation in general (which I'm very used to - but usually with my feet on a ledge). The foot loop option sounds like the answer - I'll try that.

In reply to bpmclimb:

So with all this hassle why belay in guide-mode?

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

I take the point. Actually, I sometimes set up the release sling in advance, if I think I might want it, because it can be a bit fiddly, but leave it unconnected (or connected but adjustable and sufficiently loose), so that I can't inadvertently weight it.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

It's a nice option to have, because in many situations it's very quick and hassle-free. You do need to be familiar with the full-lower scenario, but it's not often actually needed.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

There are significant advantages - it's less effort for the leader.  And it's really the only safe way to bring two seconds up at once, which can be a huge time saver.

I don't use it if I think there's a real chance I will need to lower.

In reply to Sean Kelly:

Exactly.

(1) Don't choose a route you don't think your second can do

(2) If your second's ability on the route is in any doubt - and you ignored step 1 - don't belay in guide mode.

(3) As a last resort, what Jamie & Tom said

In reply to bpmclimb:

Definitely agree with the suggestions of assessing the route, second and likelihood of failure before deciding to belay in guide mode - I got dropped about 3m from not at all far below the first belay on Doorpost by a belayer trying to work out the subtleties of lowering in guide mode, and it's left me with a lingering suspicion that means I'd rather not be belayed by someone in guide mode unless they're very, very well-acquainted with it. Obviously things don't always work out as planned though, and so if you do find yourself needing to do it, I'd personally go with the sling-redirected-through-the-belay footloop method.

Or buy a Pivot

In reply to bpmclimb:

I have actually done this once on Crackstone Rib with two novices and the belay ledges were suitable, but unless you need to move fast (as in the Alps) as a rope of three I really don't see the point of this faff. Besides it also depends on finding suitable ledges for three. Climbing on Cloggy two years back this was not an option.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

No idea why you got three dislikes. This is what I was going to write but not in as much detail. 

In reply to bpmclimb

When I first used a guide device (ATC Guide)  I had a play with this sort of scenario with my brother on the end of the rope. I copied the pictures on the instructions, threaded the small hole at the front with a sling, stood in the loop and promptly dropped my brother about 3m down the cliff. It released a whole lot more suddenly than I expected!

He was fine, as it was nice clear slabby face without much to hit, but he didn't quite trust me the same after. 

In reply to youngtom:

Yes, because of the plate's orientation it does rather go locked...locked...locked... complete freefall!

For the benefit of anyone reading this and spotting the recommendations for the DMM Pivot - the good thing about the Pivot is that it's rather easier to carry out the rotation that releases it, and you may well be able to do it without having to recourse to the redirected sling.  However it does NOT solve the sudden release problem, and you still need a backup for that - either the prusik on the dead rope as I described it, or releasing onto an Italian hitch as per Tom's method. 

Tom, Misha - the dislikes are not mine, but I would say that I generally prefer methods that avoid the Italian hitch because of rope twisting.

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

The question relates to a rescue type scenario and Tom provided a ‘by the book’ answer on how to deal with this situation in a safe way. The Italian hitch can indeed kink ropes but that is not a relevant consideration in a rescue type scenario - what matters is getting the second down in a safe and effective way. Of course with a DMM pivot it may be possible to lower without having to use an Italian hitch. With other devices that may be difficult and/or not very safe given the issue you’ve highlighted. 

In reply to Misha:

Confused.  The method I gave works with all guide type plates, not just the Pivot, and would be exactly what I did if I had an unconscious or free-hanging second.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Only had to do it once but I found that using my nut key in the little hole designed for a small crab (all mine were large) or some cord (already used mine) made for a good lever. 

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Why all the dislikes? 

As others have said, lowering with a guide plate is unpredictable and difficult to control. I wouldn’t choose to do it for more than a few metres. 

You’ll have much more control lowering the climber with an Italian Hitch. Yes it kinks the rope, but those kinks come out in use. 

It shouldn’t take more than 60 seconds to transfer from guide mode to an Italian hitch.

All these things are well worth practicing before you have to do them for real. 

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

Are people really that worried about a few kinks in their ropes? I quite happily use italian hitches to belay a second on easy ground where they are likely to move quickly and then move back to a belay plate as required.

In reply to spenser:

Fair, but in this scenario the Italian Hitch is completely unnecessary.  The solution I gave is perfectly safe, as it controls the dead rope with a French prusik.

In reply to spenser:

Exactly the kinks from Italian Hitches  come and go. 

In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Why would you lower someone down a vertical or overhanging crag using an unpredictable devise that is tricky to release and control, when you could get rid of the guide plate and replace it with a nice, straightforward Italian hitch, which ideally would be backed up with your belay plate for additional control. 

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

There's nothing unpredictable about the way I described!  The dead rope is controlled (via the redirect through the belay) by a prusik.  If anything goes wrong you just release the force that's holding the guide plate rotated open and it snaps back into locking mode, so you've got your back-up there.

Both your method and mine work perfectly well and are safe.  I don't think either takes longer to rig up than the other.  There's very little to call between them.

In reply to all:

I don't know how we managed before we had these guide mode devices.😂