UKC

Hi Everyone, 

I'm just wondering what people's thoughts are on hard copies of the guidebooks Vs the App. 

Are there Pros and Cons which make one more preferred than the other? eg. Carrying around an entire book of 1000 or more for only a few climbs in the day.

Thoughts?...

In reply to So_Ashby:

Then your mobile phone drops out of your pocket onto a boulder, beneath you....

In reply to veteye:

Books can get dropped/lost/wet too.

That said, I find a book much nicer to leaf through. However, I often can’t be bothered carrying them up routes/around crags - in which case I take pics of the guide with my phone. Occasionally I go to a new area and don’t want to buy a guide, and that’s where I find the app really useful - as you can just get the bit you need for a quick hit.

In reply to veteye:

haha that is always my worry! But as I need photographic evidence for my training anyway my phone is usually in a secure pocket throughout the day 

In reply to ianstevens:

Yes - seems that when I climb with people we read the guidebook then leave it at the bottom of the climb ... not much use for multi-pitches. 

In reply to So_Ashby:

That's not the right way to look at it. The phone is lighter, the phone is smaller, it's unlikely in this day and age that you would leave it behind anyway and it can have other multiple uses.  So the question is do you carry a book as well as a phone? If you are traveling it then becomes do you carry several books and a phone?

In reply to So_Ashby:

Buy the book or rent the app. It's your call.

In reply to Bilbo Baggins:

I do. There is no way I can use a phone with cold hands and there is no way I'd trust myself to get it out halfway up a sea cliff.

In reply to So_Ashby:

Disclaimer - I'm one of the developers of the Rockfax app but these are my thoughts 

I think they both have their place and really I think it'll be a case by case basis on what you want.

For general inspiration and flicking through at home, I think books win. Page layout can be tailored to complement action shots and impressive topos etc. I also generally prefer looking at paper over a screen. I do enough of that, like most others, throughout the day.

For taking to the crag I think it depends. You'll need to just weigh of the pros on cons of what you want. The biggest for me is easier to carry on multipitch routes, as I always take photos of guidebooks anyway before leaving the ground.

Here's  a few arguments for both (I'm writing from my phone so formatting is crap)

Books - Doesnt run out of battery, less expensive is dropped / gets wet, low tech barrier for users

App Pros - Dynamic content, easier to carry on routes, authors not restricted by page space so generally better suited to comprehensive guides, interactive topos and maps, filterable routes (find what you want quick), (in the case of the Rockfax App) pay small 1 month fee if you only need access for 1 month on a trip.

There more arguments for both, but I dont think one or the other is better.

In reply to GrahamD:

I don't disagree.  Both have their place and it's horses for courses in reality.  I like a book in any case, if only because the format lends itself to motivation,  but would tend to carry the app when it's appropriate and convenient.

If I was too cold to use the phone I would probably be too cold to climb

In reply to Martin McKenna - Rockfax:

Decision made for me as I don't have a smartphone yet. However there are a lot of guidebooks around that are either fatter or are generally much bigger than, say, the old CC guides and are too big to carry easily. Perhaps they might be more practical if they were split into pocket sized parts eg Vol 1 introduction, then a couple of vols for climbs if necessary  (this was done for several areas a few years back (not now?) and seemed to work OK). The little Rockfax guide to Snowdonia classic rock is quite useful, but could actually be a bit fatter and include more climbs IMHO.

In reply to So_Ashby:

Only if you're lacking in imagination.

Both myself and a climbing partner have disassembled and then laminated the individual pages of entire guidebooks for Scottish Winter climbing. It's a fantastic option - you only carrying the few pages you might need.

The less drastic option adopted by another climbing partner recently was just to cut the guidebook in half so he only needed to take the relevant section. In that case it was the Swanage section of the Rockfax Dorset guide, however it is hardly a new idea as it was first adopted just after 1909 when climbers had copies of George Abraham's British Mountain Climbs rebound in four volumes for increased usability.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Many years ago I produced a prototype of an Alpine Guide exactly long those lines and touted it around several shops and a couple of publishers but couldn't get anyone interested in taking it on as a commercial offering. I think it would have been expensive to produce and possibly not commercially viable at that time.  I still have it on my bookshelf along with several dozen plastic folders in the loft.

Al

In reply to So_Ashby:

On a wider point, recent and current trends with guidebooks are definitely towards thicker and thicker A5 format guidebooks as opposed to smaller formats and/or multiple volumes which were the traditional choice to prioritise usability at the crag or on the route. 

Several recent guides in particular, such as the latest Eastern Grit Rockfax and the latest North Wales Bouldering guide are now extremely unwieldy. In both cases the durability of the books is now dreadful, but the format is probably still highly suitable for the style of climbing. A slightly more controversial choice was the decision of the FRCC to publish the Borrowdale Guide in A5 format as the area includes a number of classic multi-pitch routes as well as valley cragging. 

Much of the trend is commercial, related to production costs. Plastic covered guides are now no longer viable as hardly any printers will produce them and those remaining are inordinately expensive. A5 is a very standard format so is actually cheaper than some smaller custom sizes. Finally, it's obviously cheaper to print one large volume than two or more smaller ones.

Additionally, it is also consumer driven. I'm sure Alan will correct us if I'm wrong but it is seems very obvious that the small format Rockfax Peak Pokketz and North Wales Classics guides have not sold in large numbers compared to the full sized versions.

Despite the increase in online resources, it is clear is that hard copy guides are as popular as ever. More new guidebooks have been published recently than at any time I can remember in the last twenty five years. 

I don't necessarily like it, but the default does now seem to be the larger A5 volumes. On the flipside, I think it is worth giving kudos to a few people for innovating and bucking the trend:

• Adrian Trendall has prioritised usability with his two volume Skye Cuillin Ridge guide. 
• Steve Broadbent has gone for a smaller format with his Mountain Rock selected climbs guide.
• Garry Smith has gone for hardback bindings for his Scottish Winter and Welsh Scrambling guides, accepting that they probably won't be taken onto the hill, but focusing on producing really inspiring volumes with quality production values.

​​​​Not sure how things will look in another decade, but I certainly think we'll still see plenty of printed guidebooks on bookshelves and at the crag. 

In reply to So_Ashby:

I have a smartphone, but I take a cheap dumbphone to the crag as the battery life is longer and it doesn't matter if it gets wet or dropped.  So it's a book every time for me. Phones are too easily damaged, I can't read the screen in bright sunlight, and technology has a habit of failing when you most need it.  Books are robust and don't rely on batteries.  Unfortunately guidebook publishers are undermining these advantages by making them bigger and heavier.

In reply to So_Ashby:

Always the hard copy, but as 99% of my climbing is single pitch then it’s no hassle to carry to the crag and leave with my bag. Multi pitch/winter I take photos of the tool on my phone and have the route description memorised and make do. But always buy the book, they’re great for inspiration on rainy days and visited many a crag that I’ve seen in print but never bothered to click in to on UKC/Rockfax app.

In reply to So_Ashby:

I've got bookshelves full of guidebooks but over the last year I've basically stopped taking them to the crag. There will be areas where what is in the app isn't enough or the area isn't covered at all, but I've not been to any in the last twelve months.  I even used it for the limited winter climbing I got to do last winter.

On battery life, I don't think my phone is anything special but if I put it on charge in the car so its 100% when I set off, I can use it for a day winter climbing, checking regularly the OS map app, checking the Rockfax app to see the routes, taking lots of photos, sticking some photos on instagram from the belay if I'm feeling ambitious, tracking my distance and route walked on Strava, and so on, and it will still be 50% or more in the evening. I just carry a small battery pack with me for emergencies.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Those are two different beasts. The Welsh Scrambling guide is still physically small enough to be taken out on the hill (and in its original edition was in fact paperback), and I imagine that that's the intention; the Scottish Winter guide is on the other hand clearly intended to be read and digested before you venture out.

To the OP: do whatever works for you. Interesting that you write 'the App' though - there is more to all this than a single vendor's app ...

In reply to So_Ashby:

Always a book for me at home to study and get inspired. I use the App more and more at the crag - usually sport climbing mind - or just check the route lists for the UCK databases.

£3 a month for the full Rockfax catalogue is amazing value btw!

Chris

In reply to So_Ashby:

You can’t wipe your arse with an I phone, but you can with a few pages from your guide book. 

In reply to Albert Tatlock:

Bit of a sod when you accidentally follow the resulting 'route', though.

In reply to So_Ashby:

As many others have suggested it's not really a question of either/or. Both have their uses. I personally really like both options at different times, depending what I'm needing.

I would, however, like to make some suggestions to those who are worried about trashing their phones at the Crag:

• Get a rugged/waterproof case. There are lots of options on ebay/amazon, some of which include screen protectors. Get one that you can swap easily if you don't want to have it on all the time. If you're due an upgrade then choose a new phone that has some degree of waterproofing.
• Get a leash or a case you can add a strap to. Again there are cheapo ones on ebay/Amazon but we bought the Hangtime Koala and really like it as it gives us a lot of confidence for those belay-selfies!.  https://www.hangtimegear.com/
• Get a booster battery pack. Even better get a booster battery pack that's also a hand-warmer!!

I'm not suggesting any of this makes a guidebook irrelevant, just that some of the arguments against taking a phone to the crag can be easily mitigated.

cheers

Dave

In reply to Albert Tatlock:

The modern shiny pages aren't much cop for that...

In reply to Mark Kemball:

I know similar to Izal 

In reply to So_Ashby:

Book.  It's easier to write stuff in and the battery life is unbelievable. 

Besides after you've filled your bag with ropes, draws, lunch, water and other assorted crap that we all take to the crag what difference is a little book gonna make? 

In reply to So_Ashby:

I take a photo of the relevant page on my phone.

In reply to drconline:

But not the basic usability and visibility of a touch screen in extremis.  I find them hard enough even indoors.  With the old style guidebook there is no mitigation needed.

In reply to Albert Tatlock:

I actually prefer Izal for the hill. More hygienic and not as badly affected if it gets wet in the sac. Multifunctional too. It can be written on. I've used it to copy route details and trace crag/mountain diagrams from others' guidebooks (no battery required, smart phone users). 

In reply to So_Ashby:

Here is a link to a short article I wrote for Climber (2018), with some of my thoughts on guidebooks.

http://ianwyattwriting.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/2018_03-Guidebooks....

In reply to Ian65:

Thanks for that Ian.

If your only reason for the continuation of printed guidebooks is that given in your last paragraph (pasted in the image below) then they are doomed as a medium I fear. That would be like putting your faith in the horse and cart as a method of transport based on the fact you like the smell of horses and they make good companions!

Printed guidebooks will continue if they remain viable to produce, affordable to buy and the demand remains for them to give the sort of inspiration that they currently offer above and beyond what we get from digital alternatives. 

This may change, and the economics are certainly moving at the moment, but I reckon we will have the bonus choice of print and digital options available for many years to come albeit probably in a changing style of print guidebook.

Alan

In reply to So_Ashby:

Totally depends on the user interface of the app. I tried the rockfax one but didn't like it so more than happy lugging a book around. 

In reply to thepodge:

Ditto

In reply to thepodge:

In all cases the user interface is a pudgy finger trying to touch a barely visible but very expensive screen.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Hi Alan,

No, I was not trying to suggest these are the only reasons for a printed guide; I agree with all the points you raise. I was merely trying to capture some of the ways in which a printed book becomes personal to its owner, and is then transformed from being simply a source of information into an object with which one has an emotional bond. This is not something that can be achieved with an app.

By the way, thank you for taking the time to read the article.

Ian

In reply to Ian65:

Hi Ian

I enjoyed your article and I think we are probably in agreement about the nostalgic appeal of guidebooks which certainly do have some attractions a digital option will never have, although there is a tendency to characterise things like 'dog-eared' and 'taped-up spines' in a positive light whereas, in fact, they are indications of bad binding and poor quality!

In these debates though the reasons usually trotted out for why books are better than digital options are the tryptch of battery life, dropping them and screen in bright sun. Well I don't know many (any) climbers who don't take their phones to the crag and most (all) would climb a multi-pitch with them. Battery life on the latest phones is dramatically better and I suspect in years to come we may get the phase where we nearly forget they have batteries. Screens are massively better on the latest models now as well.

Think about a modern printed guidebook. How can it be improved? The list is pretty short. Printing is now pretty much as good as our eyes can see, the price is good, the content is clear and informative. People might want better binding but that would come at a cost. Basically, they are about as good as they can get.

Now think about a mobile option. How can that be improved? Where to start? Longer battery life, better screen visibility, better signal reception, bigger screen possibility, more location options, more content available when and where you want it. The list is only restricted by our imagination. Considering that many of the world's brightest tech experts are working on making these improvements, and ones we haven't even thought of, it is a mistake to judge digital options based on the tatty old iPhone you might have in your possession now which I suspect is what some people are doing.

That said I don't regard digital v print as an either-or, however, it does need to be said that the success of digital options will impact on what is viable for print.

Alan

In reply to So_Ashby:

Photocopy/scan and print the route(s) for the day works for me, whether sourced from an app or a book.

An improvement for hard copy guide books would be pages that open flat, whether spiral bound or just flexible enough spines. Easy print options from an app would be a help too.

Simple a4 pocket sleeve takes care of the waterproofness for winter/British summer conditions.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

A few thoughts on digital apps vs guidebooks:

• The trend for A5 guidebooks just doesn't work for bigger, multipitch routes which you might want to take the guidebook on. You need something that will fit in a pocket
• I've yet to see an entertaining app that I might browse at home. But some of my guidebooks from the 90s are brilliant. South Devon and Dartmoor and  North Devon are all packed with humour which evokes the atmosphere of the areas. I'll sit down and read them and get inspired. Apps don't do that for me.
• Most paper guidebooks have better and more consistent route descriptions, especially for trad. This may change over time.
• I hate the pure fiddliness of dealing with an app on  a phone. You need a screen lock to stop it switching on in your pocket. So you have to get past the screen lock. Then your sweaty and chalky fingers don't always work well with a touch screen. If you could set up the app with an "on-route" mode, where your chosen route description replaced the screenlock backdrop while you were on route, that would be brilliant
• I could live with my guidebook getting wet. If my phone gets wet and dies that's another matter. Would you ab into the bottom of Mercury (Carn Gowla), or Dream of White Horses, or Prophecy of Drowning with your phone? Let alone making the leap into Great Zawn at Bosigran.

Steve

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

How about worse binding, eg guide split into several small parts on good paper but with no cover? Would that be cheaper? People could buy their own protective waterproof pouch/cover and put in the part(s) they want for that day. 

In reply to So_Ashby:

'Smart' phones are the dumbest idea ever. All eggs in one basket and look how they are turning people into addicted zombies. Yes its great to have a little portable computer that you can leave in your car switched off but walking around with it in your hand and if you drop it/lose it then your world falls apart. Tail wagging the dog. Have a little crap mobile for calls, have a  little camera for pics, have a printed guidebook. Easy to replace any of those.

In reply to So_Ashby: there isn't a paper guide locally,  so thats that, but we have a web based guide rather than apl.  If I sit at home and look at that on a large screen it is excellent for planning and just browsing crags.  Surely you use Bluetooth to attach your phone to the TV and do similar?

In reply to oldie:

The plain fact of economics is that printing A5 or A6 paperback with a drawn-on soft cover is the standard that is available and what the printing presses across Europe are set up to produce. Anything outside this standard adds considerable expense to the production process and hence the cover price of the book. This means a looseleaf, waterproof, odd-sized or differently bound books.

There is a discussion here to be had about how modern economics has homogenised printing to these pre-defined standards and made flexible printing much harder to come by, but climbing guidebooks are not going to have any impact on this, we just have to work with what is available.

So whilst there are some good ideas on this thread for more practical styles of paper guidebook, they ain't going to happen. 

Alan

In reply to So_Ashby:

We use 3 things.

We use the UKC logbook pages when planning our climbs to an area we don't know so well. The book gets us to the specific butresses as the overviews are much easier. The app is great when we are engaging the pitch. App is better on multipitch as we get going.

The question might not always be a case of 'VS'. Great thread though.

In reply to So_Ashby:

Has anyone looked into print-on-demand?  I'm not suggesting this would suit Rockfax or other large-scale publishers, but it might be suitable for local guides where demand might be limited, and they can offer a variety of sizes and finishes, including pocket-sized similar to old-style climbing guides.

In reply to So_Ashby:

There are three kinds of guidebooks.

Coffee table guides, like the Rebuffats 100 best routes in Mont Blanc Massif. The only way to go with these is high quality print and they never leave home.

Proper guidebooks, such that you can take to the crag. They will get ripped, dropped and abused. You might rip out pages (for multi pitch routes) and so on.

Digital guidebooks, imho these work well with boulders and single pitch crags not too far from the road.

The the first type is easy.

The 2nd or 3rd depend on where the climbing is (reception, approach etc.). For the boulders and single pitch stuff, I often only use a digital one. But I might still get the paper version, as it is often nicer to read when at the camp/home. For multipitch stuff, I do prefer paper, but it might also be a photocopy from the book (plus a pic in the phone/camera).

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

Well, Cicerone have already managed to prove you wrong with Adrian Trendall's Cuillin Ridge guidebook. Two handily sized full colour booklets, a plastic cover and a retail (Amazon) price of £13.99.

It is an innovative and successful re-invention of a previously common format. AFAIK it's the first two volume guide in the UK since the CC Avon and Cheddar guide in back in 2004, which admittedly looked pretty poor and dated even then with it's B&W texted based format. 

I also gave two other examples of publishers going down alternative routes.

I think it would be great to have the next edition of Eastern Grit, especially if it grows any further, as a shrink-wrapped three volume set. I'm sure you know exactly how much extra that would cost and have done the analysis and concluded you don't like the potential hit to demand and/or profit margin however, other publishers may well conclude otherwise. In fact I think that the CC lost a trick in that regard - whilst they market the Pembroke definitive guides to members as a very keenly priced set of 5 volumes, it has not been marketed commercially in the same way.

Annoyingly, even if you're right and there is even more consolidation at the A5 format, as a massive bibliophile, I'll still end up buying them... 

In reply to gooberman-hill:

I did last year (DOWH). The night before I added a lanyard to the protective case and put it on a cord round my neck. I could take photos of my mate without any worries. I think it was before I had got the Rockfax app, but I don't remember us taking the guidebook down with us. I had possibly copied the relevant pages of the book but more likely I had just taken photos on my phone and check the route description that way.

In reply to HeMa:

Does 27crags rely on data reception? I can't remember, but I thought it had some sort of download feature. Rockfax doesn't need any signal, you download the guidebooks before, so you can use it in airplane mode if you wish.

In reply to TobyA:

Free version requires a connection. Premium offers the download option (akin to RF App I think).

But I’ll not bring a phone at all with me, If no signal . 

In reply to So_Ashby:

I guess we’re looking at the high tide mark now wrt printed guides. Whereas the eagerly anticipated (just like the last one was) North Wales Bouldering guide by Simon Panton will again be massively expanded with more venues and split into two volumes, yet more selected, or even definitive guides to the peak aren’t exactly an exciting prospect unless you’re really into grim quarries. Maybe a Bancroft or Pollitt style recent developments will be the future?

As far as digital vs print is concerned, it’s not either/or, you use what is most appropriate to what you’re doing. A book is maybe better than an app at home, a photocopy best for multi pitch etc. A guide best for a boulder field. Rockfax app is great for foreign trips, but the guide and the local topography comes out in the bar in the evening.

In reply to Mark Stevenson:

Not really Mark. Firstly Skye is a unique area with possibly with more guidebooks than anywhere else, secondly, this set has only just be published so whether it works is still unknown. It also looks like the book has a wrap-around plastic cover rather than one integrated with the cover. We tried this with the 2005 Rjukan guide but it was a bit rubbish so we never did it again.

That said, it looks like a good two book set and I am sure it is competitively priced even without the Amazon discount.

They are small books though. If we did this with Eastern Grit into three (or four for comparative book sizes) then you would be looking at £60 - £100 for the set. North Wales Bouldering has recently been split into two volumes and they are probably both going to be £38 each. So two books, twice the price, but I strongly doubt they have twice the content. I am sure Ground Up are doing it right though and great effort on producing this updated volume so quickly. Guidebooks are a phenomenal amount of work to produce and these new volumes will be well worth the price.

As for the CC Pembroke 5 volume set - I suspect that will be the end of the line for that format since it simply isn't sustainable. 

Alan

In reply to Howard J:

 You asked about print on demand - just a shout out to Joey and the crew at No Thrills Editions who are doing a range of niche print on demand or PDF guides and other publications at very reasonable prices.

 Mainly Scotland so far but with some European locations too.

https://www.no-thrills.com/titles

In reply to So_Ashby:

i can’t read my phone in bright sunshine. Yes we do get some occasionally 

Also, I like a bookshelf with my guides on. Quite satisfying. Old school