UKC

As I cycled below Burbage yesterday I was impressed that climbers do seem to have stuck to the BMC's guidelines and stopped climbing - hopefully - it will enable the BMC to propose a more progress set of guidelines as the easing of lock down occurs (based on the fact that climbers wont take the piss).

It is interesting that the UK have 2m of social distancing, a more conservative distance than Germany (1.5M), largely I understand because our government didn't trust us with a shorter distance...

I think the approach should be risk based and data based, I hope the BMC has got access to important data, recently I think NHS beds were 40% under-utilised which is quite a worrying statistic...

The Germans are re-openning restaurants, and their overall infection/ mortality stats are close to an order of magnitude better than ours...

The cost of overly strict measures can be counter-productive, such as a crippled economy and greater poverty itself driving a higher mortality than Covid19.

Climbers have shown that we can be trusted with guidelines, I hope the BMC can provide new ones that reflect that climbers can work with these in an adult way.

Cheers,

S

I doubt they have... their recently published plan had sport climbing down as being more risky than bouldering.

Their argument seemed to be that transmission risk is lower because you can boulder solo. And when with a partner, there's less requirement to share equipment or get near each other. Which strike me as reasonable points.

Reasonable if you don't value your ankles? I like my spotters to get up close and personal when I fall... 

If it’s ok for you to cycle below Burbage, is there any particular reason it’s not ok for people to climb on Burbage, assuming they are from the same household, competent and stick to well protected routes?

Not having a go at you - it’s just that your post highlights the strange situation climbing has found itself in.

I don’t really see any issues with cycling, running, walking or climbing at that particular crag. It’s not like there’s going to be an access issue there as it’s on access land and well away from any local housing.

I’ve bouldered a lot, but only ever when I haven’t had a partner for trad. If you value your ankles then do lowballs and sit starts from the time being. It’s not rocket science. 

If the issue is transmission risk, and you don’t feel safe bouldering without spotters being up close and personal, then the logical solution is for you to not go bouldering, surely? No one is forcing you to go out climbing. If the only options you feel comfortable with contravene public health guidance then you can always find something else to do with your time.

Whatever the guidance around physical distance from others, your own personal risk assessments still apply. Personally there are plenty of boulders I’m happy climbing alone, and plenty that I am absolutely not - covid doesn’t change that but it might mean the latter are off the cards for a bit longer. 

I definately have an issue with cycling in central london, it’s impossible to keep safe distance or avoiding breathing other cyclist breath. These rules don’t makes and we need to be let out to go climbing, following guidelines is way safer than cycling. 

Are you sure climbing in central London is safer than cycling? 😜

Not having a go at you (you'reclearly sticking to the guidance as it stands, which is all any of us can do), but I don't get the logic that bans toproping with household members at local crags but allows cyclists to hammer down the hill through my village at 40mph.

The issue is not what I feel comfortable with - these are supposed to be guidelines for opening back up climbing.

Yes, you can boulder on your own, but if you tell people is time to start bouldering again they won't all stick to that, a lot of people will revert to fairly normal climbing behaviour. 

Bouldering is more likely to be done in groups than sport climbing - which is mostly done in pairs. Even when a group of people go sport climbing together, they spend most of the day paired off, whereas groups of boulderers will tend to session problems together - everyone touching the same holds over and over during the day, without time in between for sunlight and wind to affect any virus that has been transferred to those holds.

With sport climbing it's much more likely that contact at the crag will be limited to the climbing pair, and as our bubbles start to expand slightly a lot of people with be climbing with a mate or a partner that is in their bubble already.

The difference in cycling and climbing is one of accessibility and perception. It is perceived as more risky than cycling and therefore putting a strain on A & E. I would guess, as both a climber and cyclist, that that perception is totally wrong. Climbing seems safer to me. 

Cycling is more accessible and acceptable to people. More people can get on a bike and ride to the shops for example. The line between leisure cycling and cycling as a form of transport is blurred. There is no distinction in rock climbing. There is no good rational reason to climb (which is why many of us do it... Because its there etc).

If climbing was allowed a hundred thousand (?) people would be happy but 60 million people would be asking why isn't my motorbike racing, yachting, horse racing, dog shows, hockey tournaments and everything else that makes our world go round, allowed too.

And you might as well cancel lockdown.

Personally, I think that nearly all reasonably distanced outdoor activity would have very little transmission risk. The real risk seems to be indoor working environments and crowded indoor leisure venues. Coughing, sneezing and singing seem to be the high  risk behaviours and the amount of time spent close to somebody coughing, sneezing and singing. 

But I am now entering the amateur epidemiologist ranks and I'll leave it there. 

The other big distinguishing feature of walking, running and cycling (apart from being universally well known and accessible) is that almost anybody can do them alone from their front door and they don't require, and force people to congregate at, specific venues. That's not true of many sports.

Yeah, this struck me as ridiculous too. Literally anyone who climbs can tell you that's bullshit. Everyone I know who's had a serious injury (as in hospitalization) has done it bouldering. 

Indeed, it’s perception of risk but who is going to be there to see climbing in action? Burbage is fairly secluded. Only walkers and cyclists there and they’d be hypocritical to say that climbers can’t go out but they themselves can. Most probably won’t care, they will just see climbers as other people enjoying the outdoors. 

I don’t think there’s any issue with people doing other outdoor activities, as long as it’s safe and socially distanced. Golf, angling, metal detecting, whatever. Tennis is probably ok as well but not team contact sports like football and rugby.

In reply to:

I don't know what i find the weirdest. If it's some people's expectation that the government will say "You can now sport climb but not trad climb", that anyone thinks anybody but the lowliest of the 'junior-intern-assistant-to-the-assistant-of-the-assistant-of-the-secretary-of-the-government's-civil-adviser-office' will even give a cursory glance to the document let alone read it and actually take in what it says, or that people is waiting for the BMC to give them permission to trad climb rather than sport climb.

Weird times...

I guess nothing is safe in Central london, way too many of us! I can’t even imagine what it will be going back to work along thousands of other cyclist at rush hour...

Don't you both touch the same ball playing tennis?

The issue here is not one of transmission risk but of influence. I fully understand that 2 climbers from the same household can feel that going climbing together is low risk. The risk lies in the influence, no matter how clandestine you may be about your actions, reports of your activity will get out. This then triggers an attitude of if its alright for them it's alright for me, and 2 climbers from different households meet to go climbing, perhaps even car sharing to do so.

We cannot control the actions of others but we can influence them. This is why, currently, it is best not to bother. 

And they are all cardio vascular as well as being doable from the front door - which I assumed the main objective of exercise in this context was.

Yeah, my patience is running thin with all this tbh. The government are never going to say climbing can resume, because they never banned it. 

It was the BMC's decision to interpret the governments legislation in a way that makes climbing not allowed. And offer advice (and it is only advice) not to climb. 

The idea that they have to ask the government to do a phased reintroduction of climbing is stupid. The government never said climbing to stop in the first place.. It was the BMC.

Ah, well that's a very different issue to the risk of a broken ankle.

If your point is that people can't be trusted to do what they are asked then this all becomes a totally pointless discussion. If people can't follow a request to not go out bouldering in big groups then presumably they can't be trusted to listen to a request to not go out climbing either. Yet it largely appears that people have listened to that request which gives some hope that they can be sensible moving forwards.

Some will do what they want anyway, yes, that's inevitable and has been the case with all the recent guidelines. Those choosing to ignore the advice or requests aren't going to be more compliant with one type of climbing rather than another - they will just ignore the advice and do what they want. For everyone else, the observation that low, accessible bouldering alone might be the option most compatible with social distancing advice doesn't seem absurd.

A Spotter is unnecessary on 90% of boulders. Obviously if you are bouldering alone, you avoid the other 10%. It's not difficult.

Hats off? What sort of a boulderer removes his beanie? Have standards fallen so far? I shall write a strongly worded letter to On The Edge......

I think sport  climbing is riskier than bouldering per hour of participation. In a typical 8 hour day a sport climber will do a load of routes, whereas a boulderer might do one route and spend most of the day lying around, feeding the ubiquitous mongrel, brushing the rock...

How do you know it isn't? There's not much risk of stuff falling on your head while bouldering.

Aye, just yanking your chain. Can't believe they've just announced you should be cycling to work tomorrow. Are they hoping Londoners now have the unproven herd immunity?

Since when has the BMC had any say or control as to when and where we can go climbing?

If climbers can interpret the government’s legally binding guidelines as it being OK to climb, then they won’t give a toss what the BMC say.

(personally, I won’t be climbing for a long time yet, I’m going to decide myself when it’s safe, and legal)

FTFY

Technically they can ban climbing on the few crags that they own, however if you were to fall foul of this you’d be trespassing at most, and as far as I’m aware most are on/are designated CRoW land so I’m not entirely sure that even that is correct as climbing is a permitted activity within the legislation. Absolutely nothing is likely to come of it.

I'm going to have to break with UKC tradition and disagree with you. I'm not responsible for anyone's actions. Just like you're not responsible for mine. By your metric we'd all have to be extremely careful about climbing around impressionable children or Flat-Earth society members, just in case we trigger an attitude of if it's alright for them, it's alright for me, and they decide to give it a go with a washing line or something...

Yeah but people can use a glove for their free hand and wash their hands or use sanitiser (if anything, that's going to be more practical on a tennis court than at a crag).

Or spend 90% of the timing handing off a rope resting or figuring out how to do a move and the rest of the time dogging their project to death, before potential redpoint success

It's the logic that says that if enough people go climbing someone is going to need a chopper or MRT to pick up their mangled body. Given loads of people off work and nice weather the crags would be busier than a bank holiday weekend.  If those people go for a walk/run/bike ride instead, that risk of need for the chopper crew/MRT is lower.  Chopper and MRT crews don't grow on trees, therefore anything that reduces the risk of them becoming ill or having to self-isolate is worthwhile.  The chopper will have to be deep-cleaned for a couple of hours after use, thus downtime is increased.  Top-roping close to home may be ultra-low risk, but it's not easy to police and people will bend the rules as has been stated upthread.

And if they crash and need an ambulance on that countryside hill they've been bombing down at 40, paramedics don't grow on trees, ambulances need cleaning.