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how local is local?

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 timmyhobby 21 Mar 2021

My local crag is a 30 min drive away, is that local? ive not climbed for months due to thinking it isnt but have others as i feel like most have been climbing?

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 ablackett 21 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

If you want a broad range of opinion including those who think going for a 30 minute drive to a crag is fine, and those who think that doing so will likely kill lots of people you have come to the right place, if you want the current rules then look at the link below.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/national-lockdown-stay-at-home

You must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes).

If you need to travel you should stay local. This means you should avoid travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live. You should reduce the number of journeys you make overall.

The list of reasons you can leave your home and local area include, but are not limited to:

exercise, or for outdoor recreation in a public outdoor space - this can be on your own, with your household (or support bubble,) or with one other person (in which case you should stay 2m apart). You should minimise the amount of time spent outside your home, and you should not travel outside your local area

Post edited at 18:34
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 AJM 21 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

Guidance says "in the village, town or part of a city you live in" or words to that effect. But it's guidance, not law.

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 The New NickB 21 Mar 2021
In reply to AJM:

> Guidance says "in the village, town or part of a city you live in" or words to that effect. But it's guidance, not law.

However if you find yourself in front of a judge, guidance will likely be used to help determine if you have broken the law.

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 DaveHK 21 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

Just go.

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 Andy Manthorpe 21 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:In the north of Wiltshire the police are using ANPR cameras and issuing tickets if you are outside your home area. I'm not sure what distance limit they are using, but people out from Swindon visiting the Cotswold water park are getting tickets. This is a distance of about 8 miles.

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 Maggot 21 Mar 2021
In reply to AJM:

> Guidance says "in the village, town or part of a city you live in" or words to that effect. But it's guidance, not law.


Geez! Roll on late April/early May when we're all free again ... until it all kicks off again in October!

3
 jordanclimbs 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Andy Manthorpe:

> In the north of Wiltshire the police are using ANPR cameras and issuing tickets if you are outside your home area. I'm not sure what distance limit they are using, but people out from Swindon visiting the Cotswold water park are getting tickets. This is a distance of about 8 miles.

Have you got any proof of this? Surely they can’t issue fines determined on ANPR of where your car is seen compared to where your car is registered... as there’s no legal requirement to register your car where you live, just where you are contactable.

 Jenny C 21 Mar 2021
In reply to jordanclimbs:

Also many people are currently living away from their normal home address having decided to relocate for lockdown.

 mrphilipoldham 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Andy Manthorpe:

Rubbish. What if you’re travelling for work? The appeals process will have been bunged up in minutes.

 mrphilipoldham 21 Mar 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

No it won’t. The law will be used to decide if you’ve broken the law. 

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 The New NickB 21 Mar 2021
In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> No it won’t. The law will be used to decide if you’ve broken the law. 

Bollocks, law is interpreted. Case law might be used, but if there is no relevant case law, a judge will interpret. This particular law has an obvious “reasonableness” element to to i.e. is your reason to leave home reasonable, is your interpretation of local reasonable. Guidance is obviously relevant to this reasonableness test.

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 mrphilipoldham 21 Mar 2021
In reply to The New NickB:

It’s legally allowed to travel for exercise. If your chosen exercise is bouldering then it would be reasonable to travel to your nearest bouldering. That’s the problem with the guidance, it doesn’t stipulate what exercise is, even whether it must be cardio based. A good lawyer will see their way around it with ease.

I’m not saying it’s right of course, personally those who made their bed in London can sleep in it.. but realistically the law and guidance has more holes in it than a good cheese.

Post edited at 20:19
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 BillyBoredEU 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Andy Manthorpe:

> In the north of Wiltshire the police are using ANPR cameras and issuing tickets if you are outside your home area. I'm not sure what distance limit they are using, but people out from Swindon visiting the Cotswold water park are getting tickets. This is a distance of about 8 miles.

I call bullsh*t

 Andy Hardy 21 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

Can you walk there? - definitely local.

Doable on a bike? - possibly local.

*Have* to drive there? - unlikely to be local.

HTH

Andy

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 Jimp97 21 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

claim your going to test your eyes if you get pulled up.

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 Kryank 21 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

I have traveled 1000’s of miles during this lockdown for work, including frequent trips from West Yorkshire to Staffordshire(driving through the peak and past the roaches) and although tempting have never stopped to play out. 
In all this time I have never been stopped by police or received any tickets through anpr etc.

 deacondeacon 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Andy Manthorpe:

> In the north of Wiltshire the police are using ANPR cameras and issuing tickets if you are outside your home area. I'm not sure what distance limit they are using, but people out from Swindon visiting the Cotswold water park are getting tickets. This is a distance of about 8 miles.

B*ll*cks. 

 crayefish 21 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

If there's one thing that I look forward to once this pandemic is over... its not having half of UKC posts either being about asking whether a certain activity is ok, or berating someone for thinking it is 🤣

 GrahamD 21 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

30 miles ? just cycle there. 

 gravy 21 Mar 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

Just go - but only if you can do it safely.  That covers a bunch of things: better to go a bit further (for you and for wider society) to a safe crag than some scrottly piece of tottering crap or some crowded honey pot.

Post edited at 21:40
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 Michael Gordon 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Kryank:

> I have traveled 1000’s of miles during this lockdown for work, > 

Likewise. Kinda puts into perspective all the 'but what if you breakdown on your way to the crag?' nonsense. 

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 leland stamper 21 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

Your profile says you live in Bristol. There are a lot of crags to choose from. most are less than 30mins away.

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 Michael Hood 22 Mar 2021
In reply to leland stamper:

If I remember correctly, there are crags within the city, under a bridge or summat 😁

 Kalna_kaza 22 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

Cumbria police have no issues with county residents travelling elsewhere in Cumbria for exercise. Luckily it's a big county. 

Try phoning your local police force, they might be more helpful than you think.

 JohnBson 22 Mar 2021
In reply to The New NickB

> However if you find yourself in front of a judge, guidance will likely be used to help determine if you have broken the law.

If it was an effective and enforceable law and not guidance then the successful prosecution rate would be higher. It's a piss poor means of controlling a population masquerading as law which only serves to confuse the public, and police, by blurring the lines between enforceable powers and social responsibility. 

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In reply to mrphilipoldham:

> It’s legally allowed to travel for exercise. If your chosen exercise is bouldering then it would be reasonable to travel to your nearest bouldering. That’s the problem with the guidance, it doesn’t stipulate what exercise is, even whether it must be cardio based. A good lawyer will see their way around it with ease.

My chosen exercise is bullfighting, can I go to Spain. 

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 GrahamD 22 Mar 2021
In reply to JohnBson:

> In reply to The New NickB

> If it was an effective and enforceable law and not guidance then the successful prosecution rate would be higher. It's a piss poor means of controlling a population masquerading as law which only serves to confuse the public, and police, by blurring the lines between enforceable powers and social responsibility. 

Sor of like the highway code, then ?  Funny how people seem to manage with that.

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 mrphilipoldham 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Go for it, sweet cheeks.

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 Climber_Bill 22 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

> My local crag is a 30 min drive away, is that local?

Ask Edward and Tubbs.

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

I will cite this thread whilst in discussions at the airport, wish me luck.

Ole

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 joem 22 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

My reading of the lockdown lifting plan is that from next Monday we’ll be asked to minimise travel and not stay at home which could be reasonable interpreted as going to your local crags rather than doing huge day trips. I’m sure there are people who will disagree with me on both sides of this but that’s my reading of it. 
 

in short I’d wait till Monday.

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 Lankyman 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Climber_Bill:

> Ask Edward and Tubbs.

There's nothing there for you

 rj_townsend 22 Mar 2021
In reply to jordanclimbs:

> Have you got any proof of this? Surely they can’t issue fines determined on ANPR of where your car is seen compared to where your car is registered... as there’s no legal requirement to register your car where you live, just where you are contactable.

Exactly. My car is owned by a lease company in Derby, registered keeper a company address in Gloucestershire where any correspondence goes, who then forward it to me in Oxfordshire. 

 SAF 22 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

Impossible to say, but would you feel comfortable with your decision that you are not increasing the risk of covid spread? 

To give an example of the ridiculousness of the stay local rules, in the context of the Welsh '5 miles rule" of last summer and now, if you live in the centre (measured rather than city centre) of Cardiff, within 5 miles of your home you have access to approx 650000 people and all the facilities to go with that (if they are open of course)... The population of the entire North Wales/betsi cadwalader region is only approx 700000. Therefore can I visit my in laws who are 60 miles away as the crow flies, but would actually represent no increased risk compared to someone in Cardiff visiting family 4 to 5 miles away.

 UKB Shark 22 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

In my opinion social distancing at the crag should be a far more vexing concern than distance to the crag. 

For my local area - the Peak - Derbyshire Police have said "There are no limits given in law to how far someone may travel for exercise, however, you are only allowed to exercise with one other person who is not in your household or bubble."

https://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/news/local-news/police-respond-claims-ice-... 

Turning to guidance that is there to inform individual decision making in the same way that other public health messages do. How you apply it to your own situation and choose to act and behave accordingly is down to you but hopefully you’d do that responsibly and apply common sense. 

Personally I have been travelling up to 30 minutes mainly to go bouldering on my own and more recently to meet someone else at the crag to do roped climbing on the basis that it is legal to do so and the risk of transmission from these activities is very low. Most in my circle think this is reasonable other circles will disagree. Some have altered their views during this current lockdown.

It is an emotive and divisive issue where extreme views proliferate and it is horrible that it has created such a split amongst climbers.

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 Lord_ash2000 22 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

> My local crag is a 30 min drive away, is that local? ive not climbed for months due to thinking it isnt but have others as i feel like most have been climbing?

Local is a 20 min drive (as that conveniently covers most of the places I go) 

If your drive is 30 mins I suggest driving faster

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Intergalactic Planetary 22 Mar 2021
In reply to UKB Shark:

> It is an emotive and divisive issue where extreme views proliferate and it is horrible that it has created such a split amongst climbers.

Absolutely. Spot on.

It’s a shame some older climbers took it upon themselves to send emails to young climbers, who were travelling less than 30 minutes, during the first lockdown telling them they shouldn’t be climbing.

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 peppermill 22 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

If you really must, just do it, keep it under the radar, don't do anything daft and don't be a total wally and spray it all over Instagram or whatever.

(Personally I couldn't justify that as local to myself. I'm sure plenty would find a way to though.)

Edit to add: Bizarrely I find myself thinking "Thank feck I'm in Scotland and it's reasonably clear up here.." Saves a lot of arsing about.

Post edited at 11:52
In reply to peppermill:

But if it isn't on ukc/fb/insta, it didn't happen.

Why make the effort to go climbing if you can't brag about it 😏

It surprises me that lockdown hasn't been policed by self incriminating. Fixed penalty notices to those who spray on social media about their antics. 

Post edited at 12:15
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 Mike Stretford 22 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

> My local crag is a 30 min drive away, is that local? ive not climbed for months due to thinking it isnt but have others as i feel like most have been climbing?

I've stuck to the rules

'If you need to travel you should stay local. This means you should avoid travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live. '

No crags in the part of the city I live in so no climbing. I'm sure I could do a 'safe' trip somewhere else but then so could lots of other people for lots of other activities, then it's not so safe.

Next week rules change and travel further afield will be permitted, and I'll be going climbing.

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 UKB Shark 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Intergalactic Planetary:

Im not clear what you are referring to but to be clear my post relates to the current lockdown and it’s rules not the first lockdown. The National mood, rules and extent to which the disease and its transmission was understood were all different during the first lockdown.

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 AJM 22 Mar 2021
In reply to UKB Shark:

> It is an emotive and divisive issue where extreme views proliferate and it is horrible that it has created such a split amongst climbers.

This, to me, feels rather cakeist, in that bemoaning the divisive nature of the issue feels rather like code for wishing that people were less critical of the choice to ignore the guidance and go climbing. I feel a bit like pissing some people off and maybe getting some stick for it ought to be an accepted consequence of doing that.

In some respects I think there's been very little "reaction" versus the amount of piss taking I've seen or heard of as regards people's choices of where to go and climb.

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 UKB Shark 22 Mar 2021
In reply to AJM:

Not following all the guidance is not the same as “ignoring” it. It has also not been followed by those at the highest levels of government. No doubt I’ll be climbing again with people I’ve been in disagreement with. The deliberate obfuscation and conflation of law and guidance by government has gone a long way to promote this divisiveness

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 AJM 22 Mar 2021
In reply to UKB Shark:

> Not following all the guidance is not the same as “ignoring” it. It has also not been followed by those at the highest levels of government. No doubt I’ll be climbing again with people I’ve been in disagreement with.

I think the difference between "not following all the guidance" and "ignoring the guidance" may be one of those irregular verbs - "I don't follow all the guidance", "he/she ignores the guidance". I'm not sure I could make any sort of more substantive distinction than that.

And saying "X did it too" is playground stuff, surely!

> The deliberate obfuscation and conflation of law and guidance by government has gone a long way to promote this divisiveness

I can agree with you there. Fixed distance limits, or an exercise from home restriction, would have been far better in terms of creating an objective set of criteria. 

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 Michael Hood 22 Mar 2021
In reply to AJM:

I'm very thankful that the current lockdown has been during winter when it's been colder & wetter so I've coped with not climbing (since October) but I expect to explode onto the rock (not with skill 😊) next week unless the weather turns rubbish.

If this lockdown had been from now or in the summer, I would have found the situation much more of a dilemma. Knowing that my adherence to the guidelines this time (as well as the law) is partly dependent on the season, helps me avoid being judgemental.

 Mike Stretford 22 Mar 2021
In reply to UKB Shark:

>The deliberate obfuscation and conflation of law and guidance by government has gone a long way to promote this divisiveness

The rules have been clear, even the definition of local. There's divisiveness because some have ignored those, let's at least be clear about that.

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 Ramblin dave 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> The rules have been clear, even the definition of local. There's divisiveness because some have ignored those, let's at least be clear about that.

Unless everyone's walks and bike rides have just been laps of their town or village, I'd guess that most people have been ignoring the definition in the guidance to be honest. It's just that some people have been ignoring it harder than others.

 AJM 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

Ah, down south I'd say it's been a perfectly decent winter to be out - I suspect I've lost maybe 10 reasonable days or part days out since New Year, perhaps more if you count the period pre lockdown (my last day out was just before Bournemouth went into Tier 4 I think so had a few days of holiday over new year in which I could have got out pre lockdown).

 Mike Stretford 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> Unless everyone's walks and bike rides have just been laps of their town or village, I'd guess that most people have been ignoring the definition in the guidance to be honest. It's just that some people have been ignoring it harder than others.

A walk or bike ride, door to door, might be open to some interpretation, sure. If you're getting in your car to drive somewhere you are clearly breaking the rules during a national emergency, and if everybody copied your actions, we'd be right in the shit.

Post edited at 14:16
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 BillyBoredEU 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> If you need to travel you should stay local. This means you should avoid travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live. '

> The rules have been clear, even the definition of local. There's divisiveness because some have ignored those, let's at least be clear about that.

I thought the rules were stay at home until the 29th of March and then stay local after that?

So if you don't have any local climbing, it looks like you wont be going climbing after all?

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 Michael Hood 22 Mar 2021
In reply to UKB Shark:

Lovely, I especially like the fact they were scaling it with pickaxes and that it was a dangerous ice wall.

You just got to love local journalism - priceless stuff. How comes the PA photographer just happened to be there?

And the linked article and readers comments all add to the experience 😁

 Ramblin dave 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Mike Stretford:

> A walk or bike ride, door to door, might be open to some interpretation, sure.

It's not about interpretation - the guidance is to stay in your village, so if your walk or bike ride leaves the village then you're breaking it. If you don't think that's problematic then that's fine, but people don't get to claim that everyone needs to follow the guidance as a matter of principle if they aren't following all the guidance themselves.

5
 Mike Stretford 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> It's not about interpretation - the guidance is to stay in your village, so if your walk or bike ride leaves the village then you're breaking it. If you don't think that's problematic then that's fine, but people don't get to claim that everyone needs to follow the guidance as a matter of principle if they aren't following all the guidance themselves.

Rubbish, getting in the car and driving 30mins is completely different to someone straying out of town borders for a section of their walk, and you know it.

It's always difficult to draft guidance and laws in a hurry, that could cover every eventuality.... using that to excuse socially irresponsible behaviour during a national emergency is pathetic.

2
 Mike Stretford 22 Mar 2021
In reply to BillyBoredEU:

> I thought the rules were stay at home until the 29th of March and then stay local after that?

As part of that change, I have been told 'stay in your part of the city' will no longer apply, and that seems consistent with the outdoor activities permitted after that date. I will be climbing locally.

 Ramblin dave 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Mike Stretford:

I haven't been in a car since Christmas, so I'm absolutely not trying to justify anything on my part.

I just get frustrated with the way people seem to be flip-flopping between "everyone should follow the guidance to the letter and not try to judge the risk for themselves" and "obviously we don't have to follow _that_ bit of the guidance to the letter because it's clearly low risk". Particularly because turning it into a black-and-white matter of principle rather than a matter of degree seems to lead to people getting a lot more angry about it than is necessary or proportionate - "I am following the rules while you ignore them and risk lives" rather than "I have one assessment of what's safe and you have a slightly different one".

Post edited at 14:54
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 Mike Stretford 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> I haven't been in a car since Christmas, so I'm absolutely not trying to justify anything on my part.

> I just get frustrated with the way people seem to be flip-flopping between "everyone should follow the guidance to the letter and not try to judge the risk for themselves" and "obviously we don't have to follow _that_ bit of the guidance to the letter because it's clearly low risk". 

Ok, but I'm not flip-flopping so didn't get why you where making the comments to me. 

1
OP timmyhobby 22 Mar 2021
In reply to leland stamper:

Ah, not updated this, now in Shropshire, 30 mins from ipkins rock

 planetmarshall 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

> You just got to love local journalism - priceless stuff. How comes the PA photographer just happened to be there?

In fairness the original article made no judgements. That was down to the commenters.

 Michael Hood 22 Mar 2021
In reply to planetmarshall:

> In fairness the original article made no judgements. That was down to the commenters.

But they must have known the kind of comments they'd get for something like that during these Covid times - methinks a bit of purposeful shit-stirring to increase footfall.

 Michael Gordon 22 Mar 2021
In reply to AJM:

> I think the difference between "not following all the guidance" and "ignoring the guidance" may be one of those irregular verbs - "I don't follow all the guidance", "he/she ignores the guidance". I'm not sure I could make any sort of more substantive distinction than that.>

'Ignoring' means paying no attention to something. In contrast, you could decide simply not to follow guidance having already considered it carefully. 

 AJM 22 Mar 2021
In reply to Michael Gordon:

I'm not sure I see the importance of the distinction, really - the end result is the same.

It strikes me that it's exactly the same irregular verb scenario just with different adjectives - people who are ignoring the guidance are often very likely to be able to justify to themselves the reasons why.

It's also fairly tangential to my point, which is that if you don't follow the guidance, whether through careful consideration or any other reason, you ought to be prepared for the possibility of getting some stick for it.

1
 Misha 23 Mar 2021
In reply to UKB Shark:

> Some have altered their views during this current lockdown.

I think this is key. The situation is not static. The level of Covid infections, the number of people being admitted to hospital, the number of people in hospital / ICU and the number of people (including climbers!) who have been vaccinated is very different today compared to the early weeks of the lockdown. Therefore people's views will evolve over time, to some extent regardless of the rules / guidance, although that will also be a factor.

I haven't been out climbing myself but I always thought that a return to climbing would be on the cards around Easter as the second wave eases off and so it has come to pass. Got next week off work anyway so hopefully will get out climbing or at least hill walking in the Peak / Shropshire. Helps that I was lucky to have the vaccine last week but that's not determinative, particularly as the 3 week period won't have passed until after Easter.

Before getting out, I'm planning to visit my parents for a few days as haven't seen them since September. That's allowed under the household bubble rules, even though the risk of transmission is incomparably higher and the journey involved is a bit longer than the longest journey I would be making for a day trip. So I'd be within the rules to embark on this epochal journey on Saturday. On the other hand, technically, making a similar journey to go hillwalking on my own would fall outside the guidance on Saturday but it would (probably) be fine on Monday. Sometimes it's best not to think too much about it!

On a more practical level, my parents had the vaccine a few weeks back, so I'm ok with visiting them. On the other hand, I didn't go to see them at Xmas, even though that was allowed, as it didn't feel like the right thing to be doing. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, but sometimes you might as well?

Another example is overseas holidays this summer. It might be allowed with some kind of testing or vaccine passport regime but, as things stand, I'm not convinced it would be the right thing to do due to the risk of importing vaccine resistant variants (this might change but the Covid numbers aren't looking good in most other countries). I bet lots of people will be packing the planes for sunnier climes though.

 Misha 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

I suspect a lot more people would 'take a view' if this lockdown were to extend into April, May and beyond. Last spring we had great weather but most people didn't head out because it was all new and scary and we all hoped there wouldn't need to be any more lockdowns. This time round it would be different. In some ways, I think it's a good think that the weather has been pretty average.

 Misha 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> It's not about interpretation - the guidance is to stay in your village, so if your walk or bike ride leaves the village then you're breaking it.

I bet whoever wrote that (there must have been quite a few people involved) had never lived in a village or imagined what it would be like to live in an average village and not leave the village itself.

 bonebag 23 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

If you think it is reasonable then go. The one occasion I got into conversation with Cheshire Police all they were interested in was had I been out on my own or in a group with more than one other person. They weren't interested in how far I had driven. 

OP timmyhobby 23 Mar 2021
In reply to Michael Hood:

No, I just wanted to know others views as I want to go climbing

 DaveHK 23 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

I pine for those halcyon days of Brexit threads. We were all so young and care free then.

1
 springfall2008 23 Mar 2021
In reply to timmyhobby:

> My local crag is a 30 min drive away, is that local? ive not climbed for months due to thinking it isnt but have others as i feel like most have been climbing?


The word 'local' does not apply in law, but until 29th of March the police can demand you return home and fine you if you refuse to do so. If it's only 30 minutes away that's not a major issue.

From 29th of March of the police can't ask you to go home, so travelling a few hours for a day trip is less of an issue.


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