UKC

"The 3 months of Lundy being in lockdown has put the future of the island in real jeopardy" writes Derek Green, Lundy General Manager, in his 28 July  letter appealing for donations to "help Lundy recover from the impact of coronavirus and survive the difficult winter months ahead". "Lundy is overwhelmingly dependent on the income from holiday guests and day visitors. Being closed for 3 months has been a huge financial blow, even after making full use of the government furlough scheme".

Visits by climbers are not a major contributor to the Lundy economy, but it is an important and special venue within UK climbing, and climbers have always been warmly welcomed on the island. We should help to preserve that. Further information on the appeal can be found at: landmarktrust.org.uk/lundyappeal

I thought Lundy was basically a nature reserve with a few guest accommodations on it. How is its future in jeopardy? Are all the fulmars going to search for work elsewhere?

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve been to Lundy and it’s a special place, but given the wider context this has got to be about the most first-world-problem appeal I’ve ever seen.

Struggling to see how your post generates 2 dislikes! 

I didn't give a dislike, promise!   But I understand why some may not like this appeal.  It is well known that people give to charity in a finite way, ie if they give 5$ today they are likely to give less/nothing  next time they're asked to donate.  So by giving to this charity some other potentially more worthy cause will recieve less funds.

Yeah I get that, but hundreds of climbers have been to Lundy and most have a fabulous and pretty much unique experience. It costs a few quid to keep the island running in the way that it is  - surely worth putting your hand in your pocket for? 

Thanks for highlighting this Frank. As for this allegedly being a first world problem would that not apply to most first world charities. If people care about how the island is managed for visitors, especially given its importance for climbing, this must be an issue of concern.

The Trust should maybe get a bit more information on its website to help the appeal.

https://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/support-us/projects-and-appeals/

Thank you for your comment. I'll keep well away from any debate about which charities, organisations or causes should be supported as that's a personal choice for each individual to make. It would be a great loss if the Lundy managers were forced to restrict climbing and other activities on the island due to insufficient resources being available to keep it all going.

There's a bit more information specifically about the Lundy Appeal on this Landmark Trust website page: https://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/lundyappeal/

It's an island FFS.

It just sits there in the middle of the sea, has done for centuries, and will continue to do so long after CoViD 19 has passed. 

It's an island managed by a charitable trust who also run facilities so that people can stay and enjoy the sea park, the flora and fauna (especially the birdlife), the historic buildings on the land and the world class climbing. They have done a fantastic conservation job over the years.

The landmark trust are essentially about property conservation. They take historically  important but neglected and dilapidated buildings and restore them, using money from letting them out as holiday homes to maintain them and restore other buildings. 

Lundy is a bit of an unusual one.  At the time they took it on, the NT weren't interested in holiday let's. It would almost certainly be managed by the NT directly if it came to them now, rather than the Landmark arrangement

As a consequence, the landmark priority will be to maintain their existing built estate, the climbing, the campsite, the conservation will not be seeing the same interest. I could (stress could) see a circumstance  where they shut the pub/shop and campsite and just focus on the building works if money is short and they have to prioritise

You could easily extrapolate that level of apathy to the whole of the UK, but let's face it - it's not really constructive is it? Given Frank's close relationship with the island I saw this as quite a positive post and an attempt to give something back to a place that was special not just to him, but a great many others too.

Thankfully the The Landmark Trust didn't have the same lack of enthusiasm back in 2002 when they started the rat eradication programme, which has resulted in seabird numbers trebling throughout the island. Perhaps the mantra "it just sits there in the middle of the sea, has done for centuries" isn't the best to live life by after all?

Rightly or wrongly, places such as Lundy have running costs, be that through personnel or infrastructure. As Offwidth rightly points out, climbers have benefited from both over the years and will hopefully continue to do so in years to come.

Finally, here's a shameless plug for the Lundy Destination Article I wrote back in 2016: https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/destinations/lundy-8709

I wish I was there now...

Thanks a lot but I'm very sorry I don't see the logic of "It would be a great loss if the Lundy managers were forced to restrict climbing and other activities on the island due to insufficient resources being available to keep it all going", when the Lundy General Manager said "Lundy is overwhelmingly dependent on the income from holiday guests and day visitors.", I'm a bit confused, why would Lundy restrict climbers if they bring that income? Thanks - I'm just missing something I guess.

I went to Lundy climbing and agree it's a special place, loved it

Lundy is pretty nice, is better than many other areas of the UK, not sure. However, unless you can afford to go, and from memory is was not cheap, you are not going to know.  I would rather contribute elsewhere rather than support Landmark Trust. 

It's probably a bit more expensive to get to than most owing to the ferry, but once you're there - assuming you've brought everything with you - it's the same as any other place in the UK. 

When it comes to contributing, the choice is entirely yours

I agree with you on that. As Rob Greenwood said above, Lundy needs money for running costs, such as staff and maintenance expenses, to support the infrastructure that accommodates all visitors, including climbers. That's the "Catch 22": no visitors then no income, no infrastructure then no visitors.

The overall tone of this post is a misleading appeal to emotion, suggesting that the island itself, or the ability to go rock climbing on Lundy are somehow in jeopardy. 

Rock climbers do not require infrastructure, they are perfectly happy to go out of their way to climb in the most inhospitable places on Earth, whether or not there is a hotel and a shop nearby. 

What it really means is that the business side of Lundy may be at risk.

Well that applies to thousands of other businesses in the UK as well, Lundy is not an island (in this respect).

We're all in the same boat. 

Perhaps the people of Lundy could write to their local MP,  the fox hunting millionaire Tory, Geoffrey Cox (49p for a pint of milk on expenses, former Britain's highest earning MP, undeclared income and tax dodge fanboy) and see if he can help out, I'm sure he's got a few quid he can dish out to help his poverty stricken constituents. 

"The future of the Island"

has no context whatsoever. 

People can send their money where they like, but, if by chance nobody responds to this appeal, what is the very worst that can happen on Lundy?

A few extra weeds to pull up on the footpaths and a couple of dead sheep? 

Thanks a lot for your explanation, that's clear now

But what if we prefer our island climbing venues to be uninhabited? I thought Lundy was a pretty mediocre experience compared with, say, Mingulay. This could be seen as a positive development.

Go to Mingulay then! 

So say the island "closes down", the ferry service stops. How are you suggesting climbers get across to the island?

Not saying it's impossible at all, just interested to hear your thinking about how it would still be available as a climbing destination.

I could see one outcome of any closure being that Lundy is effectively banned to human footfall to become a complete back to nature reserve.

On a f#@%ing boat. The same way anyone gets to an island. 

Lundy is off the coast of Devon. 'coast' generally means boats, lots of them. 

Some plucky local with a boat, could perhaps charge people money to take them to the island.

It's a system that's been used for centuries to get to islands all around the world. 

Indeed. I went to Lundy a couple of weeks after my first Mingulay trip and was a bit underwhelmed (though the climbing itself was good). Never been back to Lundy, but been back to Mingulay quite a few times. Lundy would appeal more without the infrastructure to spoil it.

Unless the Landmark Trust are unable to manage the island due to lack of funds and they give up the lease and the National Trust decide that as the Landmark Trust struggled there is no future in bringing visitors to the island and to close the island and ban people from landing.

Not making any comment on the rights and wrongs of this appeal but merely pointing out that a change in management strategy, manager or owner could result in an altered access agreement. There is precedent for this happening elsewhere.

or we could spare a few quid for a charity managing somewhere we broadly like to visit, to get through a difficult and unprecedented time. Or not. your choice, really

30-40 years ago I think what you say would be easily correct, but I suspect that charging people to take them on a boat is not as simple as it used to be; certification, insurance, etc are now barriers to entry that would force it to be a bigger enterprise before it became commercially viable.

Unless it's done totally unofficially - which would probably make it like it was 30-40 years ago.

I wondered whether you were also envisaging things like kayak/climb trips.

Not everyone is such a misanthrope as yourself. 

Where isn't a mediocre experience compared to Mingulay?!?!

I don't hate people. I just prefer them not to be on the same island.

Pabbay.

Lundy might be quite good too in maybe a hundred years time when the ruins of the pub, bunkhouse and so on are just archaeological curiosities. The issue of the lack of a decent beach might be more problematical.

Interesting thread.  I don't think it counts as first world problems for those whose livelihood is at stake, it's a quirky community that is on the brink of going under, and one that is close to the hearts of many of us.

Zooming out historically Lundy has always been like this though - it is populated and significant, and then drops off the radar for a bit, then the pirates arrive from the Barbary coast, or someone builds a lighthouse, or a bunch of batteries, and it comes back into focus.

I feel a bit sad for the responses that say "I'd rather it was just me and the crag".  I think you are missing an important part of the Lundy experience.

Anyway I'll do my bit to prop the place up when I sail this Saturday, inshallah, for a few nights there with the family (Gordon Stainforth eat your hat mate ; ) ).  I pledge to down my own bodyweight in fine beverages from the bar every day...but wait...you have to book the Marisco in advance the day you get there!  Tell me that's just for meals...please someone tell me a casual pint is on the cards?  The youngest has their letterbox pack pre-ordered from the shop, is letterboxing COVID safe?  Who touched that stamp before you?  I can't take it anymore!

They're open now, and booked solid for the foreseeable future (a quick play on their search page).  It'd be interesting to understand what the costs were that were not covered by the support schemes.

that's going a wee bit too far. you'd happily see a small community go under just to suit your own selfish desire for a wee bit of solitude.

Thanks for posting, but can you please point me to evidence that the "community ... is on the brink of going under"? I can't see that in the comments from the Lundy General Manager, or the website. Thanks

No. I am just saying that there might be a positive side to it if it did happen.

I quite liked the contrast between the solitude of Pabbay/Mingulay compared with the more communal nature of Lundy, where different parties with different backgrounds and interests gather for a pint within the Marisco Tavern.

Fair one, neither can I!   I extrapolated from the fact that they have launched an appeal that they are in serious trouble and may have to look at changing the funding model for the island...but you are right they have not said this. 

Thanks - and yes that's right surely, as they've launched an appeal they are in some kind of trouble, maybe serious

But if it continued as a nature reserve, with all facilities shut down, I doubt camping would be allowed, even if boats continued to visit.

You actually no nothing about the place do you?

So you'd be camping illegally on a nature reserve?

Only if it were made illegal. Numbers could be limited and there could be a code of conduct to protect the place. In fact the impact ought to be far lower than at present.

By infrastructure I take it you mean a twice weekly boat (passengers,  no cars), a pub,  and a village shop?  And let's not forget the island Landrover and its own postal service. 

Hard to see  how  this impacts on the 'experience', if you don't  want to use them they are easily ignored. The fact that there might be day trippers had never bothered me either, as I'm usually climbing when they are abroad. 

The community, as others have said are often LM employees doing renovations and wildlife conservation. Its them that the donation would be supporting.

Yes.

I just felt it gave the island a vibe which I personally didn't find particularly appealing, and it removed some of the distinctiveness of other island experiences; there are plenty of pubs, shops and bunkhouses in mainland climbing areas.

Why would they make camping illegal when it brings in income? 

Answer that and stay fashionable. 

Lundy's total area is less than six square miles.

Part of its appeal to the day tripper and the holidaymaker ( and thus, its marketability) is the limited amount of "wilderness" on sale in such a confined space.  

While ever camping and cottages are more or less restricted to an area below the Quarter Wall this impression of a wild and uncluttered space is a viable selling point.

I think Lundy is a great place for all aspects of a climbing holiday trip, starting with the 20 mile boat journey from N.Devon. it has a good combination of facilities and some of most varied and quality rock climbing in the British Isles. The accommodation in the Old Lighthouse and the cottages is excellent and well maintained by the Lundy staff. The bunkhouse barn and the campsite are well positioned close to the excellent Marisco Tavern pub and the shop. For those who can afford "eating out" the Tavern also provides excellent meals at reasonable prices. Its definitely a pub with a pleasing atmosphere and also as a venue for informative, entertaining talks by visiting climbers, divers, bird watchers and the island's resident warden. It IS different from Mingulay, being at the other end of Britain for a start, and there's little point in comparing the two places; they are just different and both are well worth visiting. I can see why Lundy may not appeal to 'climbers' like Dell whose profile shows he is very inexperienced, having climbed for less than a year and listing only easier leads at Diff to Severe with occasional VS seconding. Most of the crag approaches and the big tidal range on Lundy are not really suitable for those with such inexperience. I've made my donation to support Lundy Island and I hope many other climbers will help too.

Well, back from the lovely Isle and I can report the following:  it's still there, and still fabulous.  I think I had my most heartbreaking COVID moment (deaths excepted) when I walked in to the Marisco for the first time and saw it full of shields, one way arrows and 'don't linger here' type signs.  Also the large 'No Entry' sign on the games cupboard : (.

I did query with the a couple of people what the 'objectives' of the appeal were and whether there was any chance of the island ceasing to operate as we know it.  I got pretty non-plussed replies, I think it's too close to them to be able to articulate clearly to the outside world quite what's going on beyond they are in deep trouble.  I picked up an appeal postcard which says explicitly "Lundy was shut to visitors for fourteen weeks.  This took a huge toll on the island's income, putting it's future at risk.  Please help to keep Lundy open by making a donation today."  Looks like the appeal website has been updated with some information to say explicitly "This will enable us to get through the Winter".

In addition to the appeal website https://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/lundyisland/support-us/lundyappeal/ there is also the Friends of Lundy scheme: https://www.landmarktrust.org.uk/lundyisland/support-us/lundy-friends/.

To those who've said FFS it's just an Island 'first world problems' I'd emphasise all those whose livelihoods depend on it, from the shore staff on the mainland through the boat crew, all the housekeeping and maintenance staff, the farmers and so on and so on.  I'd also emphasise how much it means to so many people, just pick up any of the Landmark logbooks and so often the first you read is from someone who has been there ten, twenty or more times than they can count.  

Lastly this may amuse - I crept off early one morning to do some 'birdwatching' at Battery/Flying Buttress, I just happened to pack my rock boots and the guide as I had a thought of soloing the Mod on Flying Butress, downclimbing it then coming back up it.   I arrived and had a look at the exposed step off the battery to the ridge and couldn't even step across.  Instead I had a poke around on the other descent, getting myself covered in guano but also getting my head in gear.  I had another go at the step across managing it fairly easily now my head was in gear and scrambled to what I hoped would be the top of an obvious Mod downclimb (I'm thinking Easy Way Down at Wintours sort of thing).  Oh no, instead I was confronted with a vertical wall down to another ledge, with another vertical wall below that and then the obvious Mod easy angled route.  The swell boomed around the bottom of the buttress way, way below me.  I quickly decided "Stuff this I'm coming back with a partner and a rope" and scuttled back to the safety of the Battery where I did finally break out the bins for some birdwatching before running home for breakfast.  All good fun!

That step isnt for the feint hearted is it? Start of the trip, OMG, end of the trip its just a step - maybe even a good one...

Now onto the serious stuff:

Are they serving food and lighthouse beer aplenty still at the Tavern?

Do you have to prebook a table for food, and given we are going as a medium sized group - are there any "only 8 people from 2x households" rules atm? Nice to know so I can get my head round what its like in advance. (shant ask if the sea shanty group will be there giving a live performance over their pints too)

Im going back there very soon - September. I'm quite excited, Lundy does get under your skin. Its definitely worth the effort, and investment imo. 

Ta

kev

Yes they are still serving food and Old Light at the Tavern!  We were in Old House South so had the luxury of bringing pints back to our verandah : )  The chat and laughter went late and loud most nights if that gives you an idea of whether there is still atmosphere there, I'm afraid I don't know about the table rules as we didn't eat or drink in (kids), it seemed fairly relaxed though.  There's a one way system where you leave via the smokers' bench exit and enter via the normal door.  

Food - you are very much encouraged to book deliveries in advance and there is also a good 'click and collect' service where you can put an order in at the shop before 3.00 and it turns up in your building same day.  It's helpful to be pretty detailed about your food plans particularly as dinner is prebooking only (they encourage you to do it on the first day you arrive) and you pre-order on the day and turn up for either 6.00 or 7.15 and if you turn up at 6.00 you have to be out by 7.00 no questions.  The menu in the Marisco is much more limited than usual at dinner.  Lunch there is good with takeaway options (I had a delicious burger one day) that they turn round very quickly.  Give them a call on the Lundy number though and I am sure they'll talk you through anything you are unsure of.  01237 431831.

I'm jealous and already planning my next trip.  My first trip there was amazing as I thought I was on just another climbing club trip you had to get a ferry to and was blown away.  Since then I've had very small kids or babies so they were a bit bleary.  On this one we got both kids up to the North End on the last day and back (the youngest didn't even leave the village last time) and watched the seals at the North Light jetty.  I've wanted to do that for years! 

Is the North Light Tandoori still in business?

No idea!  Never heard of it - sorry.

We are off there in a couple of weeks, thanks for the info and update.  This is our third visit and really looking forward to getting back. 

btw  Can you remember the latest eating time at Marisco Tavern, we normally end up finishing by headtorch

Thank you for your really useful update on visiting Lundy. Its good to hear the Island seems to be returning to somewhere near normal with the boat, accommodation and the tavern, but they still have a long way to go to recover from 14 weeks loss of income, so come on all you climbers who have enjoyed trips to Lundy  .. let's make sure the climbing community has supported this special climbing venue when it has asked for some help.

Always get your mates to order before time! 

I know that too well. 

I suspect a little more self catering will be happening this year, which isn't what I want but sitting for 7pm isn't gonna happen all the time

14 weeks loss of income?

Er, so the same as every other business in the country? 

Did you guys not hear about the furlough scheme, the SEISS, both of which are still very much ongoing, failing that there's always the universal credit route, not to mention the bank's 'bounce back' loan scheme for small businesses. 

And it seems from the above post that Lundy is back in operation and has paying visitors once more. 

I'm sorry, but having read through all the posts in support of this appeal, I'm still not convinced of it's necessity, and no-one has yet been able to answer the question, what is the money being used for?   

I suspect it's the 7.15 sitting, but couldn't be sure - give them a call if you are worried!