UKC

Appreciate that this may be a sensitive issue to some but felt it worthy of a discussion. Not only around this route but on the wider issue of the replacing of fixed gear placed by FA's sometimes decades ago. 

The now hilarious fixed gear placed some 45 years ago on Lyme Cryme (E3 5c) is looking quite tired and I understand that Steve.B and Adey.H put this one bolt in originally in replacement of 4 existing aid bolts.  At the time, this move received a fair bit of stick however, the bolt still remains and is almost certainly part of the history of the route. If consent was given by the FA's, on what grounds would it not be appropriate for the route to be modernised?   

I do get that 'old//dodgy fixed gear' is a quintessential ingredient of British Trad, but is this the only reason re-equipment is such contentious subject? 

The Lyme Cryme bolt is an interesting question. I actually lowered off it and that weird little spike quite a few years ago (not my greatest moment, but the prospect of falling on it felt worse, and I thought the other gear would stop me if it blew, but possibly not if I went higher!)

I don't know where I sit on replacement, probably leaning towards in favour in this circumstance. High Tor is one of those crags where this question will come up for a lot of old pegs as well in future. If they're all replaced with bolts it would be a very different place.

I think the climbing community needs to get away from this notion that the FA gets a veto on these things. They don't own the route, these things are a community resource (as evidenced by other people maintaining them). By all means consult them as an interested party. 

I think old fixed gear should be replaced to make the routes viable again. Gary Gibson has been re equipping old tat and this has generally been applauded. Some of the fixed gear on High Tor is over 40 years old. Example Bastille top pitch. 50 y.o. small carbon steel bolts with stainless hangers. Not good. Replace old pegs with bolts ? That might be contentious but I for one would go with the general consensus. As an aside the bolt on Lyme Cryme didn’t inspire me 40 years ago.

205 logbook ticks on Lyme Crime would suggest the route is viable as it is

I really don't think the Lyme Cryme bolt needs to be replaced. There are adequate alternatives available with modern gear.

Alan

Despite it not being that long since I did the route I don't have a great memory of it, except I thought it wasn't very good compared to the other three star routes at High Tor. In this case I'd probably be in favour of a new bolt replacing the old one. On the other hand I don't think a blanket replacement of old fixed gear with bolts is the way to go. It should be assessed on a case by case basis, and only replaced if there are potentially serious consequences if someone falls on it and it breaks - no point in replacing old gear with bolts if there is good quality protection near by.

Exactly; it's an absurd suggestion, akin to replacing the bolt on The Boldest.

jcm

A more sensible post on retro-equipping would be hard to imagine. I particularly welcome your last paragraph.

For me there's an enormous difference between replacing an old bolt with a new bolt, and replacing an old peg with a new bolt. The former I think will often have merit, but only if technology (small cams, microwires, etc.) hasn't already removed most of the bolt's advantage. The latter I think will rarely if ever be justified.

I agree with almost all of that. 

On Lyme Cryme specifically I'm unsure of the best solution, because a fixed modern bolt would substantially change the character of the route. I think the solution needs wider agreement but should not be the status quo. 

For old High Tor pegs in general (which I'm sure have been discussed going back at least 10 years, never mind in the future) I have always had the view that they should either be removed completely (and the grade changed where appropriate to reflect that) or replaced with modern gear. I think the current situation whereby their integrity is completely unknown is really bad and I have no patience with the idea that the first ascentionist has more right to determine this than anyone else. 

I didn't find them! I'd like to reclimb it at some point, it's entirely possible that my memory is jaded by the terror of weighting the ringpull that was there! I definitely had a decent cam somewhere below me. If there is other gear around, even if a little bold, then you're right there's no reason to replace it.

I must have done Lyme Cryme at least twice but that is perhaps irrelevant to my view.

To make it absolutely clear to everybody, UK limestone and other rock for that matter should either be clean or fully bolted. Anything else is just a fudge and a recipe for endless argument.

Any bolting needs to be agreed by consensus agreed beforehand, the BMC area meetings being the obvious choice.

On balance, my vote would for High Tor to be bolt free.

Lyme Cryme absolutely should not have a bolt put in. It would completely change the character of the route. Yes, the old ironmongery is shit, but there are decent cams down and right and the fall would be safe, if long, even if the ironmongery failed. 

I count this route as one of my most intense trad experiences and to put a bolt in would be to neuter it. Nothing needs doing to it; it gets done every year as per the logbooks. 

Edit, sorry Rick this was a general reply rather than aimed specifically at you. 

There is gear higher than the bolt but it is strenuous to place. 

Agreed

I did this about 20 years ago and even then no one took the bolt seriously as gear

I recall the guide or was it extreme rock? mentioned something like you would not want to hang a teacup on it!

Out of curiosity, what's you opinion on the Darius bolt? It seems critical to the route at the current grade, although its current condition is acceptable.

The bolt on Darius has a good thread just next to it (or did 7-8 years ago) and some nuts in the crack just below your feet. I took two quite big falls on to it and the thread together. 

I understand where you are coming from but don’t necessarily agree. I think Avon Gorge is a good example of an area where pegs are important to many climbs but the routes are still often bold. There has been a documented program of careful fixed gear replacement by locals. Seems to work.

Probably a bit late for that as there are a number of fully bolted routes.

I’ve led it numerous times and latterly haven’t clipped it as it is pumpy to do so, slightly off line and obviously shit (and always has been).

In truth it was never needed in the first place.

I live at the top of High Tor and regularly ab in to replace tat etc, especially on routes that I intend to do.

I was on a BMC international meet about 10 yrs ago and asked Dave Turnbull if I should replace the bolts on M1, Darius and Lyme Cryme. His reply to me was that I shouldn't be replacing bolts on mid grade extremes without concensus from the BMC area meeting. I decided not to proceed.

M1 has a large cam alternative in the crack next to the bolt

Darius has a thread very near the bolt and loads of bommer gear nearby, plus a very safe fall zone below

Lyme Cryme has yellow camalots in a slot on the right, below the bolt

I've done Lyme Cryme recently and it is right at E3, with the camalots in, when compared to the other E3's on the crag. I know some of what I've put is "specialist beta" but hopefully it will keep people safe when questing out towards "fixed gear"

High Tor is a great crag, don't let the state of fixed gear scare you off!

Cheers........Jeff

Just replace them - ask know one, and tell know one - this approach seems to work well in North Wales.

Tom

The situ gear in Lyme Cryme is historical and there is adequate placeable gear above and below to merit the grade. No action required whatsoever. 

Hi Will, after much debate, the Peak Area came up with a policy on fixed gear in anticipation of the recent limestone guidebooks being published. You can find it here:

http://community.thebmc.co.uk/GetFile.ashx?did=1599

Essentially, any issues like this can be raised at Peak Area meeting for a consensus.

I actually want the fixed gear to be shit on lyme cryme. Because its the one route on high tor i've avoided precisely because of this. I will do it, it will no doubt be harrowing but at least I will put a route to bed I should have done years ago. 

I agree with your general point about FA route ownership tho, always a bit odd that one. 

Would the fact that the bolt plays a significant part in routes history not warrant its replacement? It’s original placement was hotly contested and I see it as part of the story of Lyme Cryme. Would allowing the old relic to simply blow away in the wind over the next 45 years actually neglect to maintain it’s historical relevance and value. 

It doesn't need replacing though. It is still a significant part of the route's history - you can still clip it if your assessment is that is what you want to do! The point is, it is not necessary at the grade as other gear is available. 

If you have strong feelings about this placement, raise your views with the Peak Area.

As Ian says, it doesn't need replacing. Reading the thoughts here I can see that my own initial thought was from a hazy memory. Even when it was first placed this bolt was rubbish, I remember being really shocked at the skinny lump of metal I came to!

Where is the bolt? I did the route about 5 years ago and do not remember seeing a bolt on it. I recall going up a tough groove then a traverse left to some sort of steep rightward flake. This had some in situ gear in it. 

Its more like a coat hook than a bolt

After the groove, on the way to the steep flake. Slightly to the L of the holds. There used to be an old 'curtain hook' near it at one time. I've got a feeling that the peg in the steep flake is (or once was) a warthog!

Agree. From my log: “The old bolts are just coat hangers but there is a good BD cam 0.75 below them, then a good cam 2 in the hidden break and finally a good cam 1 at the crux (as well as tat extended from an ancient peg - wouldn't trust it), so good gear even if it feels a bit bold.”

I don't remember seeing any bolts on Lyme crime when I did it in the 80's, I remember there was a twisted hook thingy which looked strong enough to hang a small painting, perhaps it's original intention.

I did Lyme Cryme in 2003 or thereabouts. Didn't see any fixed gear worth clipping, or that I couldn't back up, and thought it hard but OK for gear. (I may have done it wrong) 

No

I described it in the 1992 Rockfax as, "a coathanger that just about supports a quickdraw". That was 28 years ago, 17 years after it had been placed. I don't think this has ever been a critical piece of protection on that route.

Alan

Someone actually placed an 8mm bolt next to it or close to it about 1990. It was in for about 3 days......

another vote for leaving it as it is. Decent cams near it and as everyone has said the "bolt" has always been a bit of a joke.

Also thanks to Jeff for his work maintaining threads etc

cheers

It's very clear what the consensus is and I sincerley appreciate all the comments, knowledge and experience for filling in the gaps for me.  

Bolts have been replaced on Peak limestone trad routes.

The bolt on Circe (E5 6b) at  Stoney Middleton was replaced a few years ago.

In that case it seemed totally appropriate. It was the only real gear to protect the crux and the route would be hideously unbalanced without it.

BTW All the threads on Perseus (E3 5c) were replaced at the weekend, also an E3 5C.  A fantastic route but now feeling very soft compared to LC. 

On that thread, I’ve done the route a few times, but a long time ago and I could be wrong, but I seem to remember that on Bastille it’s bolts protecting the crux from ground fall potential. Without them would that be E7? No sooner would you bend your fingers backwards on the crux, then you have to run it out up the groove and definitely do not fall from up there.

Always did. I don't remember any threads on Perseus, but I remember finding it easier than Darius. The same day I led Perseus, I failed to second LC, getting into the groove. I remember pulling on fixed gear at that bit - is that the shitty bolt? It'll be a serious sandbag with no gear there, hard E4?

I've not climbed Bastille so I can't comment on that one specifically. I was mostly highlighting that Lyme Crime was a bad example and that sensible rebolting in the Peak was happening.

On grit I think things are really clear cut. Ageing bolts should not be replaced. I climbed Fred Zinnerman (E6 6b) at  Caley Crags years ago when it had a rusting relic of a bolt. I clipped it. I'd never argue that it should have been replaced.

On the limestone where controlled danger has never been fashionable I think things are more nuanced. It seems sensible that if gear has moved on enough to protect trad routes without their historic bolts they should be consigned to history.

On the early pseudo sport routes with crucial (and still crucial) bolt runners I'm more conflicted. Adding a little bit of excitement can be a good thing but having relics of routes that are unclimbable at anything like the original grade seems a loss of history and good climbs. It will probably just lead to them being retrobolted in a generation when the last people who remember them as stand out trad routes move away from the scene.

Many years ago (on a day I'm sure UKB Shark remembers I did bend my fingers back & got through the crux of Bastille. Running it out up the groove, I noticed the second finger of my right hand was increasingly painful and when I looked at it was horrified to see it was a soggy bloody mess - I'd completely split the tip on the crux. With blood pumping out, I looked up at what remained of the groove and the headwall above and didn't fancy my chances. Looking down, I saw my last gear a few metres below me was a large, solid looking angle iron peg. Taking a deep breath, I warned UKB Shark I was going to jump off and promptly did so. I came to a brief stop, there was a heart-stopping ping as the peg broke, and next thing I was 10m or more? lower looking directly into UKB Shark's horror struck face, my heels embedded in the grassy ledge and the rope just about taught above me. We both burst out laughing...........though that didn't last as at that precise moment, someone threw themselves off the top of the cliff and impacted not too far from us............

Years later (25 years ago?) the psychological scars had healed from my first attempt and I went back & completed the route. Seem to remember that I managed to protect the crux with a few small wires near the broken peg (did anyone ever pull it out completely?) but despite the headwall being easier, was convinced that all the rusty bolts up there would probably all break one after another if I came off.....Have those bolts been replaced in the past 20 years?

I read that story twice, and the line "someone threw themselves off the top of the cliff and impacted not too far from us" only really registered on the second reading. WTF?

I had started composing my reply about how long and lonely that groove on Bastille (E6 6b) is, but it seems a little trivial now.

Alan

Sadly a suicide which UKB Shark & I would've preferred not to have had to get involved with. Possibly even sadder, his partner attempted the same thing off Willersley or Wildcat a few weeks later but was not so successful according to the press (early 80's).

Back to the thread : were the remnants of the peg I broke at the bottom of the groove on Bastille ever removed? And was the upper wall re-bolted - I seem to remember heading up a succession of rusty corroded things none of which inspired confidence.........

A very memorable day but not in a good way. It was reported that there was a note found in his pocket which said “Put it down to unemployment”. 

Hope things good with you. We still have a score to settle with the Brandler Hasse.

Wow, quite a story.

I remember pretty good bolts (c. 1995) so I am sure they were replaced, and no peg. The only route I have been on with a lonelier groove than Bastille is Sachsenring (E5 6b) at Trevellan.

Alan

I attempted Bastille back in 2007.  I fell off on the crux and remember the bolts being good.

I pulled back on went to the top and remember finding a wire placement part way up the groove, a small wire in horizontaly (can't remember if it was just the one or two in opposition).  It certainly made the moves to the peg/wire at the top a lot less scary.

Another vote for leaving Lyme Cryme as is from me.

Blimey think I remember that - went there one evening in the 80's and there were loads of scattered branches and leaves lying around below the crag. Found out later someone had jumped off top that day and also the connection with the Wildcat jump - which I read about in local paper next day.  Also just seen it was 24/6/85 as I put it in my Delicatessen entry for that day. Grim.

Old pegs could be replaced by new pegs, just saying'.