UKC

Apologies if this is in the wrong forum.

Climbing at Millstone the other week. With some of the belays being so far back from the top of the crag our rope wasn't long enough for the usual there and back loop with a clove hitch on the harness. 

The leader ended up untying from the rope and tying the end of it to the belay with a figure of 8. Then he attached himself back to the rope at the crag edge with a clove hitch.

It seemed safe but just wondering if this was the safest/easiest method for such circumstances where the belay is too far back?

Thanks

Aye, fairly normal method for distant anchors. Just be aware that there is often more stretch in the system when you clove hitch back in because you haven't tensioned it as you would normally by walking back from your anchor point. Just means clove hitch in a bit shorter thab expected so you don't risk slithering just over the edge in a seconding fall

On a related note, I noticed someone at Millstone belaying from the top with a fence post as their only anchor. Is this common or accepted practice? Those fence posts look pretty dubious to me — one wobbled easily when I gave it a soft push, and I can’t imagine they go very deep. To be fair to him, there weren’t any stakes nearby, at least at a convenient angle — but I might have wanted one in the system anyway to guard against a catastrophic failure. 

I think a few tied off fence posts are you're only option in some areas (above keyhole cave springs to mind) I always make sure I use a few! 

I often do this, I normally guess how much slack I need stood next to the anchor, clove hitch in, and get comfy where I'm going to belay and adjust accordingly. Doing it this way also means I can belay guide mode directly off the rope behind me.

I always figure that you're technically tied to all of them anyway. But yes, if concerned, tie off a few. Can equalise them on one rope end if you wanted. 

Yeh several parts of Millstone where fence posts are the only option. I just choose the sturdiest and tie to at least two. 50m double ropes are my standard at Millstone. 

To be fair posts that wobble somewhat when handled at the top may be reasonably secure when tied off at the base.

Al

Just equalise a couple of posts if you're not confident in one, there are a few very wobbly ones above Millstone

Yes this.. the leverage at the top will be greater than the bottom, there will be very little force on the post if your second were to fall off. You’ve got your own (presumably) seated position absorbing some and then the friction of the rope running over the ground too. 
From what I remember most of the posts are concrete with steel rebar in too, so they should be pretty sturdy to human generated force.

This should NOT be taken as a recommendation but I recall several times at Millstone and similarly belay challenged crags simply getting as far away from the edge as practical, sitting down, digging my heels in and ensuring that the rope was kept very snug. I never had any problems. A falling second on a snug rope does not generate that much force unless the weight difference is significant.

Al

well body belaying in alps/winter is pretty standard practice so its not that different. granted digging your heels into heather is allot less sturdy than digging them into snow, but then heather has more friction from the rope running over it...

Thanks everyone.

The Caravanserai (HVS 5a) technique. Helps if there is a small ditch to lie in, as I found there.

Not so much on anything the second might conceivably fall off on.

I've often wondered if a belay stake or two would be permitted at Millstone, Lawencefield has a few after all and they'd be a better option than using the fence posts.

There are some stakes, for example at the top of Knightsbridge. 

Ah ok, from memory Lynons Corner house or maybe it's Gimballs area could use a stake as well?

Does anyone actually know how deep the fence posts are - because if they're deep enough, and of solid materials, then the fact that they wobble would be irrelevant to their suitability for belays, except for the "worry" factor (I have in the past belayed on some of these posts but can't remember how solid/wobbly they felt).

Someone mentioned just sitting down far enough back - this is ok if the terrain is suitable; i.e. I wouldn't like to do it on a downslope above the rock. Some Peak locations where this can be safely done:

• Very Far Skyline @Roaches - the "Wings" block - I believe there's a stake but can you find it?
• Lower Tier @Ramshaw - Brown's Crack, Prostration, etc - just sit down in the heather.
• Windgather - sit down in one of the depressions - I'm not recommending this for newbies but there's no way you'd be dragged over, and probably no way you'd be able to communicate with a floundering second either.

Of course if you do this, do make sure the rope's not going to run over a sharp edge - unlikely to cut through unless your second is playing at pendulums but maybe wearing the rope a bit more than you'd like.

I seem to recall that in previous discussions on UKC, people have suggested that it's difficult to get stakes in above lots of areas of Millstone because there's rock just beneath the surface.

i broadly agree with you, however i have held a seconds fall while body belaying. i tend to be heavier than most people i climb with, and as long as there is no slack in the system, holding a slump on the rope (especially on off vertical ground) is simple.

If the second cannot 'conceivably fall off' why are they not soloing?

Did that (LCH) the other day.  No problem with the belays on that (normal gear)

In the Alps or in winter you might have sections of easier ground between harder climbing. It’s not practical to unrope each time.

The issue of belay stakes, fence posts, etc at Millstone is a slightly complicated one. The BMC Access Reps have been in discussions over the years. Now that the land is managed by the Eastern Moors Partnership it's easier for them to have these discussions. The EMP were looking at the fence and considering climbers as part of that. 

Plus, as others have pointed out, it could be a bit tricky to place stakes. 

I'm not sure what the latest situation is: I'll make enquiries. 

Remember with the distant fence posts: try not to trip up walkers and send them crashing over the edge...

millstones make excellent belays

True, where are the millstones available for belaying at the top of Millstone?

(Scratching head emoji not available)

TIA.

probably trundled since my last visit c. 1971