UKC

Just been watching the latest Nina Caprez video - respect. However it raises questions - observing the persistence and detail involved with project climbing. She doesn't seem to have made too many repeat visits, but you hear of other folks who spend weeks and months in pursuit of 'one precious pearl'. Apparently climbing at this level/style needs physical ability but without the right mental faculties (I mean memory alone - Honnold being the extreme example) it could never happen.

Personally I have neither the physical nor mental attributes necessary to get up there. I like onsight adventure and am rarely motivated to project a climb - if a route needs 1 or 2 repeats then thats my limit of attention span.

So it made me wonder - having top-end physical ability is not inevitably acompanied with the mindset for repetition and detail; but at any level - have you recognised and accepted climbing 'adventure' as your bag - and willingly quitting 2-3 or even 5 extra notches ? Is this accompanied with self-acceptance or does it make you feel like a lazy-arse ?

In reply to LeeWood:

It's not the mind set of a hard climber, it's the mind set of anyone at any level who enjoys both the mental and physical challenge of working out and then linking together moves which seem impossible at first. I enjoy this aspect of climbing more than trying to climb something on sight and I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

In reply to LeeWood:


Most certainly, but I've never seen it as 'quitting' potential, rather it's a simple expression of preference. Seeing goals in terms of grades can be good, but isn't always ideal for everyone.

In my case it also became apparent that I was never going to get quite the satisfaction from chasing sport grades as I could from adventure discovery, partly because I was never ideally suited to the former but mainly because the latter can just be so brilliant!

In reply to LeeWood:

My climbing is focussed on projecting routes at my limit but it's not because I am "obsessive" or have great "mental attributes" or "physical ability" - it's because I live near Malham and Kilnsey, am a bit lazy, and like being able to climb almost irrespective of rain. It does not take long to climb all the easier routes at a small selection of crags - after that you either have to start projecting or drive further afield.

In reply to LeeWood:

I think if you do anything to a high degree it involves a certain amount of obsession. It requires the mindset to push past the limit of what would normally be considered practical. To use another analogy lots of people take up the guitar but very few put in the practice to be able to play with any degree of competance and of those even fewer have the drive an obsession to reach concert level. The reason most people give up is because it is "impossible" or "too hard" (back on climbing now but the analogy still holds) but the obsessive just sees it as a problem to solve and are obsessive enough not to give in when most people would think sod it, I'll try something easier.
Me, when young I wanted to get better but even so I never had the mindset to keep throwing myself at something, especially if safety was a consideration, so I never progressed beyond E2/E3 (though I seconded harder). I never felt like a lazy arse though. I had reached a level I was comfortable with and that was enough

In reply to jon:

So how many reps are you willing to do for a single route/pitch ? Would this be on the same day / consecutive day or spread across years : months ? Sometimes when I fail on a route I decline a 2nd attempt on the same day - but memorise the crux (failed) sequence - knowing that it will bring greater satisfaction to return some other day in the future .

In reply to LeeWood:

Horses for Courses innit.

In reply to LeeWood:

I think you've just answered your own question.

Personally I don't have a cut off period. I do of course have a physical cut off - ie if the moves are completely impossible for my height (or more and more my weight...) For me the journey is as important/interesting/satisfying as the eventual redpoint - which of course can almost be an anticlimax!

Another thing to consider, as touched on by the friendly moose above, when you've done all the routes you can do at a crag you inevitably end up repeating them over and over especially if it's your local. And then equally inevitably you lose motivation to climb. By projecting routes it opens up a whole new load (lode?) of routes to go at. I've a friend near here who finds himself in exactly this situation, but is so stubborn that he won't allow himself to embrace the redpoint aspect of sport climbing (which of course is what sport climbing is actually about, as against climbing bolted routes). This frustrates both him and his climbing partners and consequently he loses his motivation for weeks or more at a time , or will only do routes he's done before and is confident in getting up - and of course never gets any better! I think a lot of Brits have a big hang-up about sport climbing and try to apply their own (trad) rules/restrictions on it - only going for onsighting or refusing to climb routes with the quickdraws already in place, for example - to salve their conscience.

In reply to jon:


A point of reflection for this topic - the talent-base which each one of us has can be a source of frustration for teaming-up. Its so easy to imagine that your mate is 'not making an effort' - whether mental or physical, and that is spoiling the day.

Back in the day, there were just 2 sub-groups within climbing, cragrats and alpinists, but both dabbled more or less in the other sub. Now the proliferation of sub-groups appears to be a reflection of talent-base elements - with preferences for +/- adventure, +/- obsession, +/- time/money etc etc

Made me think of the inverse scenario - climbers with lower adventure potential but great mental capacities. Are these the folk who can climb 3 grades harder indoors where the bolts are 1m apart and they can repeat and familiarise endlessly ?

This is not criticism, the analysis will be personally helpful in my own climbing partnerships. Apparently however if teaming up with someone who climbs 7a frequently (but only on climbing walls) may be tricky if their level drops to 6b as soon as the touch real rock.

In reply to LeeWood:


If they only climb indoors, assume their level will drop a few grades outdoors until they get used to it. If they climb outdoors too, then you know what they climb outdoors. Seems pretty simple?

In reply to LeeWood:

Personally I climb three grades harder outdoors than in, largely because I can't be arsed to give anything on plastic more than a couple of goes, whereas outdoors I have actually made a conscious effort to learn to project things. Which brings us back to the point of the thread.

I do't do big projects, never spent more than about half a dozen goes over two or three days on one route. But even then, the discovery process is a fantastic experience. Getting on something you know you have no realistic chance of onsighting, having the crux feel completely ridiculous, or not even seeing how to do it, on the first go, and then going from that to thinking "ok, this is possible", is quite a revelation. And having reached the "ok, possible" stage, then comes the time when you know what to do and it's "just" a question of keeping it together and not making any mistakes on the Big Go - well that's a mentally intense experience too, in a different way from onsighting & trad risk management.

I'm not saying it's better than an onsight attitude, it's just a different discipline, to a degree that people who think "redpointing" is having one more go at something you didn't quite onsight don't realise if they've never tried it. And it has its own rewards.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Yes, but no less astonishing, esp when they have had time to get used to it - but simply do not.

In reply to AlanLittle:


Your enthusiasm is contagious and I have shared similar emotions when climbing in both of these main domains

What particularly interests me here is how our choices, attitudes and preferences are traceable to discernible elements of mental capacity: patience, attention span (boredom), capture and memory, comfort with risk elements etc

Of further interest is feedback given on logistical inputs eg. preference to avoid (long) car journeys

In reply to LeeWood:

I cannot decide if the obsession required to be really good at anything is admirable or pitiful. Are you a generalist or specialist? Should we spend all our lives on a north face chasing harder and more dangerous lines? Or more time in a cellar getting thinner and stronger? What are we missing as we pursue the increasingly narrow road of our obsession? We laud and fawn over the great people who have achieved undoubtedly remarkable things but at what cost to the breadth and richness of their own personal lives and to their relationships with other people.
There is, of course, no answer to the conundrum. Except, make your choice and be aware of what you are missing either way.

In reply to AlanLittle:


Hurray!
...was starting to think I was the only one; that indoors stuff is nails!

In reply to alan moore:


I don't think I know anyone who climbs harder indoors than out. Seems to be almost inevitable if you climb outside enough.

In reply to LeeWood:

Interesting question.
I don't think climbing is particularly special, I think to be really good in any field you need to live and breathe it. I have dancer friends who mostly look at you tube videos of dancing in their free time, or similarly with motorcycling buddies. I personally get bored when I do routes that I know I can do, most of the time. Yes it's great fun warming up on a glorious 6a however if this is all I did in climbing I'd probably pick another hobby.

I guesa it must be similar in other hobbies, as in most dancers wants to go beyond the basic steps.

The wonderful thing is that climbing is so complex that upping your game often requires you to geek out on many levels! It's great!

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Isn't this mainly because climbing great lines on real rock is so much more inspirational than indoor climbing?

In reply to John Stainforth:


I don't think it is for me, it just feels harder.

In reply to jon:

That's ,cos you,re now older?

In reply to alan moore:


possibly some franco-anglo confusion on my part - indoor grades in France are way off normal-rock grades; eg. by my estimate Indoor 6a == outdoor 6b+, Indoor 6a+ can be easily 6c when overhanging etc

Do UK walls aim to match outdoor grades ?

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


Well I suppose it all depends on what the actual difficulty of the routes are, as opposed to the grades given. Grades tend to be far more all over the place on indoor routes. This is because the setters are so strong relative the routes they set they can't tell the grade, even if they actually climbed the route, which often they don't.

Recently I tried an indoor 7a that was solid 7b and then just a couple of lines over a 7b+ yet was in fact no more than 7a.

Indoor routes tend to be more obvious since you're following coloured holds and also are far more accessible. It's much easier to find partners for indoors than out because indoor walls cater for every level of difficulty. So it's much easier to go back and try the same route again.

In reply to LeeWood:


I'm sure there's a strong connection there. But I don't think you can discount the fact that people run out of easier routes to do in a fairly short space of time. I'm specifically talking about sport climbing here - which what redpointing is about anyway. Sport climbing happens at a much faster pace than trad. There's no belays to set up, no second to bring up, and the pumpy nature of most routes means you can't dilly dally around the way you can on trad.

Unfortunately this means, in a country with comparatively little sport climbing, it doesn't take long to get through all the routes you can onsight. After that the only choice is projecting. The easier projects don't take long. You can get through several 'second try' routes in a day. After that you soon have to move on to the multi day projects.

Some climbers spend years going up to somewhere like Malham trying the same things. It's not necessarily that they're desperately wanting to climb the next level or don't like onsighting. It's mostly a case that they simply don't have anything easier left to do.

Take those same climbers to some big European crag they've never been to before and it's a fair bet most will spend a good percentage of their time onsighting.

In reply to stp:


I would take that bet... I may be just projecting my own behaviour of course, but I think serious redpointing requires an obsessive streak that won't go away when you relocate... you can try to spend your time onsighting, but unless you're at a crag with no hard routes you're going to feel your eyes being drawn back to that imposing tufa line with the desperate looking crux, and wonder "can I send that?"

In reply to stp:

There's certainly a big element of luxury in always pursuing onsight. The other alternative is repeating routes which is arguably not v adventurous for an onsighter. I would reason that on a given day I don't know whether I've 'lost my edge' for a particular route.

Otherwise as result of reflecting on several posts here I am feeling encouraged to try a bit harder at projecting - I could fight my boredom threshold (laziness ?!) and up my tolerance from 2-try to 5-try projects

In reply to stp:


I just mean that people I speak to the wall who I know climb outside always comment how hard the routes are for grade. I've never managed to get up 7a+ indoors despite many attempts at the same route over multiple sessions. The only 7b I tried last winter felt impossible to link.


I always find this strange. Surely it's your job to be able to give the route a fairly accurate grade? Nobody expects bang on really, but they often seem way out, and that's not just my opinion.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


The nature of plastic and rock are different, and you'll find the one you do less of "harder" for the grade - much the same as you'll find sandstone "harder" if you mostly climb on limestone.

When I lived in London and trained several nights a week, I climbed three grades harder on plastic than I did on rock, after several years of mostly climbing on rock it's the other way round.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


from my expereince on french walls I've assumed that 'if' you max (ex.) 6c outside - then theres little point in only trying that inside - because of height limitation; so, in someones wisdom - you should be trying stuff several grades harder.

In fact for me this is v dodgy logic (assumed) - as my forte is stamina, when the walls call for a lot more power.

In reply to Ciro:


Yes, I know.

Even after 3 months on plastic it's the same. I do plenty.

In reply to LeeWood:


Obviously a short route should have harder moves if it's the same grade. Easy to compare for me, Leeds Wall is about the same height as the short routes Malham.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


I think routesetting is very hard work. To properly grade a route you really need to climb it or at least do some fairly major links. Often they don't have time to do that. They may well set 9 or more different routes in a day. So at the end of the day they may be fairly tired and that just makes it even harder to tell the grade of a route. And when the difficulty of the route is maybe 2 or more whole number grades below what you climb that makes it even harder. By and large I find most indoor routes no more than about 1 grade out. There are exceptions but they tend to be few and far between.

Awesome Walls in Sheffield has an interesting way of dealing with the grading issues. The routesetters grade is treated as simply a suggestion and the first few days after new routes go up people can write their opinion of the grades on a card. This probably means grades are a little on the soft side (people's ego's lead to overgrading) but it does tend to smooth things out and make the grades more consistent.

Better, in my opinion, that the routesetters spend their time and energy setting really good routes, and the let others sort out the grades later.

In reply to LeeWood:


Interesting, I find the opposite. I admit to being at my best on bouldery routes, whereas the main part of my local wall is continuously overhanging and 17 to to metres tall. Even on Kalymnos sectors where you really have to go 20 metres at a time without a rest are not *that* common.

In reply to stp:


If they haven't got the time, fair enough. If they can't accurately set 6a at all, maybe the wall should be using weaker route setters.

I'm not actually that bothered BTW, I know it's not fantastically well paid and Leeds Wall isn't making vast profits. I was just commenting on how the grades match up. The routes are good and I work out how hard the routes feel to me. It does lead to the odd wasted training session when there's a reset.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Think you touch on a good point.
That is the lack of experienced 'weak' route setters.
Be good if there were more around !
Often though its down to whats available in terms of holds.
Leeds management use to test rts or get opinions on grade etc and then tweak them accordingly.

In reply to stp:
I agree.
If what inspires are rts like the ones at kakymnos or Margalef or the Red river gorge etc etc and you want to push your OS grade into the mid 7s... indoors will help most.
Nowhere else can you find the volume imo.