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Rowland Edwards and Eric Jones climb the left wall of Cenotaph Corner, and a talk about state of the art 1960s nuts and their superiority to pebbles.
youtube.com/watch?v=wiiJ7OfdEbk&
youtube.com/watch?v=wiiJ7OfdEbk&
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In reply to davidbeynon:
Great. Thank you. I had filed out machine nuts on hawser laid nylon cord like that. What's more I did Kneewrecker Chimney in 1966 with Bob Godfrey, the editor of this fillum. I hope and trust it wasn't he who managed to mis-spell the name of the route not once but twice, and in two different ways, in the opening credits!
Great. Thank you. I had filed out machine nuts on hawser laid nylon cord like that. What's more I did Kneewrecker Chimney in 1966 with Bob Godfrey, the editor of this fillum. I hope and trust it wasn't he who managed to mis-spell the name of the route not once but twice, and in two different ways, in the opening credits!
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In reply to davidbeynon:
>and a talk about state of the art 1960s nuts and their superiority to pebbles.
Bah, see if I care!
>and a talk about state of the art 1960s nuts and their superiority to pebbles.
Bah, see if I care!
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In reply to Martin Bennett:
Some of the subtitles are amusing. I particularly like the idea of using "pee tongs" to protect a climb.
Some of the subtitles are amusing. I particularly like the idea of using "pee tongs" to protect a climb.
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In reply to davidbeynon:
We started climbing in the 60s and I remember my Dad picking up old nuts from the road then taking them down to the local garage to get the thread drilled out before making up a sling; the idea of threading a nut or two on your slings was quite new. It must have been the late 60s or early 70s when the first PA climbing shoes came out; I still have my Dad's PAs and they are perfectly good for climbing, along with my own original EBs.
We started climbing in the 60s and I remember my Dad picking up old nuts from the road then taking them down to the local garage to get the thread drilled out before making up a sling; the idea of threading a nut or two on your slings was quite new. It must have been the late 60s or early 70s when the first PA climbing shoes came out; I still have my Dad's PAs and they are perfectly good for climbing, along with my own original EBs.
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In reply to davidbeynon:
Fantastic. I remember watching someone fall from the top of Left Wall round about the time this film was made. He fell the length of the wall and nearly every nut pulled out. He touched the deck with his feet and ended up suspended 20 or so feet up the face. It was like watching a zipper come undone. I was just about to launch up Cenotaph with the same sort of gear but that put me right off for some considerable time.
Al
Fantastic. I remember watching someone fall from the top of Left Wall round about the time this film was made. He fell the length of the wall and nearly every nut pulled out. He touched the deck with his feet and ended up suspended 20 or so feet up the face. It was like watching a zipper come undone. I was just about to launch up Cenotaph with the same sort of gear but that put me right off for some considerable time.
Al
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In reply to GridNorth:
One of the things that surprised me is just how unreliable the nuts seemed to be. From just looking at them I would have assumed that they would be OK and that modern ones would just be a bit lighter and stronger but fundamentally the same.
One of the things that surprised me is just how unreliable the nuts seemed to be. From just looking at them I would have assumed that they would be OK and that modern ones would just be a bit lighter and stronger but fundamentally the same.
In reply to davidbeynon:
I did my first climb in 1964 but didn't really "start climbing"until 1965. I never saw any manufactured nuts until about 1967. Same went for rock climbing shoes, they were around but I didn't see them until about the same time. I set off up Cenotaph in 1967 with very little gear other than engineering nuts on slings and a pair of rock shoes. There were 3 makes available at the time PA's, but only people who had been to the alps tended to have these, Masters and another make whose name I can't recall. They gave me a lot of misplaced confidence. I worked at a steelworks and spent my night shifts drilling out engineering nuts and smoothing off the edges and exchanging them for pints of beer. I do recall Moacs being a brilliant shape and revolutionary but people I knew only tended to carry a couple.
Al
I did my first climb in 1964 but didn't really "start climbing"until 1965. I never saw any manufactured nuts until about 1967. Same went for rock climbing shoes, they were around but I didn't see them until about the same time. I set off up Cenotaph in 1967 with very little gear other than engineering nuts on slings and a pair of rock shoes. There were 3 makes available at the time PA's, but only people who had been to the alps tended to have these, Masters and another make whose name I can't recall. They gave me a lot of misplaced confidence. I worked at a steelworks and spent my night shifts drilling out engineering nuts and smoothing off the edges and exchanging them for pints of beer. I do recall Moacs being a brilliant shape and revolutionary but people I knew only tended to carry a couple.
Al
3
In reply to GridNorth:
>There were 3 makes available at the time PA's, but only people who had been to the alps tended to have these, Masters and another make whose name I can't recall.
Gollies?
>There were 3 makes available at the time PA's, but only people who had been to the alps tended to have these, Masters and another make whose name I can't recall.
Gollies?
2
In reply to GridNorth:
Gollies?
> There were 3 makes available at the time PA's, but only people who had been to the alps tended to have these, Masters and another make whose name I can't recall. <
Gollies?
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In reply to davidbeynon:
No Gollies came a few years later. In fact I think RD's came before Gollies. RD's were my second pair.
Al
No Gollies came a few years later. In fact I think RD's came before Gollies. RD's were my second pair.
Al
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In reply to oldie:
I got some Gollies about 1972 on the strength of some glossy advertising. I got the impression they were just out then.
Comfy but useless, you had to climb quicker than they slid off the footholds.
RD's might be the name of the other rock boots. IIRC they were available ( probably from Cham ) at the end of the 60's.
> Gollies?
I got some Gollies about 1972 on the strength of some glossy advertising. I got the impression they were just out then.
Comfy but useless, you had to climb quicker than they slid off the footholds.
RD's might be the name of the other rock boots. IIRC they were available ( probably from Cham ) at the end of the 60's.
In reply to GridNorth:
I had both RD and gollies. RD were great for aid and edges but were very stiff (designed for alpine rock) The first lot of gollies were great, manufactured by MOAC (1970 I think), I was talked into a pair by Tanky. Apparently the ownership was sold and the subsequent gollies (slightly less tourquise!) were like ice skates. Only ever had the two pairs. (I had a problem with EB's and Masters as I have wide feet and these were very narrow and therefore extremely painful, or my feet couldn't reach the toes so were like climbing in flippers!)
I am sure having watched this film, that the climb part was in the mid 60's but was surprised to see chuinard hexentrics and sewn tapes. I was a bit of a gear whore in the late 60's and tanky was always keen to sell me new ideas, but I am sure I didn't see hexentrics until about 1970.
I had both RD and gollies. RD were great for aid and edges but were very stiff (designed for alpine rock) The first lot of gollies were great, manufactured by MOAC (1970 I think), I was talked into a pair by Tanky. Apparently the ownership was sold and the subsequent gollies (slightly less tourquise!) were like ice skates. Only ever had the two pairs. (I had a problem with EB's and Masters as I have wide feet and these were very narrow and therefore extremely painful, or my feet couldn't reach the toes so were like climbing in flippers!)
I am sure having watched this film, that the climb part was in the mid 60's but was surprised to see chuinard hexentrics and sewn tapes. I was a bit of a gear whore in the late 60's and tanky was always keen to sell me new ideas, but I am sure I didn't see hexentrics until about 1970.
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In reply to davidbeynon:
In my earliest climbing days I had various hexagonal engineering nuts on bits of tape, but their apparent effectiveness was often a bit illusory. The problem was that they were symmetrical and had no taper on them. This meant they were only really trustworthy if placed in a crack which was flared internally ie wider at the back. Such things aren't so common. I remember getting my Moac on rope which was the best bit of kit around in the late '60s. Oddly enough, it never crossed my mind to get more than 1, but I was a bit skint in those days (wasn't everybody?). Just wondering, did hexes appear before or after the Moac?
It's amazing so many of us survived, really.
> One of the things that surprised me is just how unreliable the nuts seemed to be.
In my earliest climbing days I had various hexagonal engineering nuts on bits of tape, but their apparent effectiveness was often a bit illusory. The problem was that they were symmetrical and had no taper on them. This meant they were only really trustworthy if placed in a crack which was flared internally ie wider at the back. Such things aren't so common. I remember getting my Moac on rope which was the best bit of kit around in the late '60s. Oddly enough, it never crossed my mind to get more than 1, but I was a bit skint in those days (wasn't everybody?). Just wondering, did hexes appear before or after the Moac?
It's amazing so many of us survived, really.
Post edited at 12:39
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In reply to GridNorth:
Yeah Al, and Rick, Gollies were definitely a bit later. I had some. Poor dyeing job - the slightest bit of damp, from rain (we used to go out in poor weather back then, remember?) or sweat and your feet and/or socks went turquoise.
RD's too were later - big ungainly stiff brown things they were - probably concurrent with Gollies. The third make you refer to as being available early/mid 60s could have been RLs - made in London by Robert Lawrie, Black canvas uppers. You didn't see 'em in N of England shops. I didn't know about 'em till I moved "daan Saaaath" in 1969 and got in with the bad lot that was The Sandstone Climbing Club. I wonder if any of 'em are still around? (Loaded question in case spotted by e.g. Phil Hennessy, Jim Wigginton, Jim Collins et al).
Like you I had Hawkins Masters first. I reckon the soles were less sticky than my leather soled town shoes. Useless. By the time they wore out PAs had become EBs - not as good as the originals I believe but a hundred times better than Masters.
Yeah Al, and Rick, Gollies were definitely a bit later. I had some. Poor dyeing job - the slightest bit of damp, from rain (we used to go out in poor weather back then, remember?) or sweat and your feet and/or socks went turquoise.
RD's too were later - big ungainly stiff brown things they were - probably concurrent with Gollies. The third make you refer to as being available early/mid 60s could have been RLs - made in London by Robert Lawrie, Black canvas uppers. You didn't see 'em in N of England shops. I didn't know about 'em till I moved "daan Saaaath" in 1969 and got in with the bad lot that was The Sandstone Climbing Club. I wonder if any of 'em are still around? (Loaded question in case spotted by e.g. Phil Hennessy, Jim Wigginton, Jim Collins et al).
Like you I had Hawkins Masters first. I reckon the soles were less sticky than my leather soled town shoes. Useless. By the time they wore out PAs had become EBs - not as good as the originals I believe but a hundred times better than Masters.
In reply to Rog Wilko:
I'd say yes, Rog - we had hexes before the piece of inspired design that was the MOAC. (I think we have John Brailsford to thank for that?). The first things I recall superceding hexagonal machine nuts were alloy wedges we called "spuds". Rumour had it they were made out of knocked off aircraft alloy by a guy called Spud Murphy who worked at BAC (formerly Dick Kerr, subsequently British Aerospace) in Preston, but this is probably apocryphal. They had a single hole drilled width-ways so the cord protruded either side necessitating deep cracks. Then came small hex section alloy pieces with 2 holes up and down - better - then the MOAC which married the two notions and got the angles correct.
Then came the Baby MOAC which was a bit smaller and on a piece of swaged wire - revolutionary!
That's how I remember the progression but will stand corrected by anyone with a better memory.
I'd say yes, Rog - we had hexes before the piece of inspired design that was the MOAC. (I think we have John Brailsford to thank for that?). The first things I recall superceding hexagonal machine nuts were alloy wedges we called "spuds". Rumour had it they were made out of knocked off aircraft alloy by a guy called Spud Murphy who worked at BAC (formerly Dick Kerr, subsequently British Aerospace) in Preston, but this is probably apocryphal. They had a single hole drilled width-ways so the cord protruded either side necessitating deep cracks. Then came small hex section alloy pieces with 2 holes up and down - better - then the MOAC which married the two notions and got the angles correct.
Then came the Baby MOAC which was a bit smaller and on a piece of swaged wire - revolutionary!
That's how I remember the progression but will stand corrected by anyone with a better memory.
Post edited at 12:59
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In reply to johncook:
Quite agree. It is a pity the introduction starts with material that was quite anachronistic for the film. My first manufactured nut was in late 1966, a spud, which resulted in a fall on the Gates because I did not know how to place it My fault for trying to rest on it! Managed the route though as a single run out on the old gear, mostly slings on flakes or threads. Earlier in the year I followed Ron James up the Corner. He was a master of protection and had 23 pieces in/on but he had no manufactured metal pieces of any sort except the peg near the top.
Quite agree. It is a pity the introduction starts with material that was quite anachronistic for the film. My first manufactured nut was in late 1966, a spud, which resulted in a fall on the Gates because I did not know how to place it My fault for trying to rest on it! Managed the route though as a single run out on the old gear, mostly slings on flakes or threads. Earlier in the year I followed Ron James up the Corner. He was a master of protection and had 23 pieces in/on but he had no manufactured metal pieces of any sort except the peg near the top.
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1
In reply to Martin Bennett:
Martin
The wonderfully stiff brown suede RDs were available before I started climbing (69), still got my pair, stiffness is such that they would be great for ice/mixed if you could get crampons for them. I recall the dilemma of buying my first Rockboots; I think the choice in Geo Fisher's was one from four, EBs, Hawkins Masters (sole had a coefficient of friction that approximated to 0), and two shoes from Galibier, PA's (red & black, can't remember why PAs morphed into EBs and Allain sold his name to Galibier) and the indestructible RDs. My copy of Blackshaw's marvellous instruction book dated 1968 shows pictures of original PAs and Masters and describes RDs. Going back further Rock Climbers in Action in Snowdonia (available once again) shows climbers in both PAs and Masters and is dated 1966. Heading further back in time the photos of Pete Crew on the first ascent of The Boldest on Cloggy in 1963 show him in original PAs (in The Black Cliff, sadly not available) and a photo in the same book of Jack Soper on the FA of Scorpio in 1961 it looks like he is wearing PAs. It is clear that at least two types of rock boot were available by the mid 60s.
I think that Gollies appeared at the start of the 70's, in the back of my mind I have the thought that their slick advertising boasted that the sole was made of the same rubber as admiralty wet weather footwear!
I must be a sad oldie!
Martin
The wonderfully stiff brown suede RDs were available before I started climbing (69), still got my pair, stiffness is such that they would be great for ice/mixed if you could get crampons for them. I recall the dilemma of buying my first Rockboots; I think the choice in Geo Fisher's was one from four, EBs, Hawkins Masters (sole had a coefficient of friction that approximated to 0), and two shoes from Galibier, PA's (red & black, can't remember why PAs morphed into EBs and Allain sold his name to Galibier) and the indestructible RDs. My copy of Blackshaw's marvellous instruction book dated 1968 shows pictures of original PAs and Masters and describes RDs. Going back further Rock Climbers in Action in Snowdonia (available once again) shows climbers in both PAs and Masters and is dated 1966. Heading further back in time the photos of Pete Crew on the first ascent of The Boldest on Cloggy in 1963 show him in original PAs (in The Black Cliff, sadly not available) and a photo in the same book of Jack Soper on the FA of Scorpio in 1961 it looks like he is wearing PAs. It is clear that at least two types of rock boot were available by the mid 60s.
I think that Gollies appeared at the start of the 70's, in the back of my mind I have the thought that their slick advertising boasted that the sole was made of the same rubber as admiralty wet weather footwear!
I must be a sad oldie!
3
In reply to davidbeynon:
I had some red Scarpa´ s, all red suede leather things that dyed your feet, never wore out and stretched endlessly, I was the guy wearing sea-boot socks! Gollies were truly appalling, my mate wore them for a while and they dropped him about three grades.
I had some red Scarpa´ s, all red suede leather things that dyed your feet, never wore out and stretched endlessly, I was the guy wearing sea-boot socks! Gollies were truly appalling, my mate wore them for a while and they dropped him about three grades.
3
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In reply to Trevor Langhorne:
That'd be about right I reckon Trevor - I had my pair of RDs in 1969 so they were clearly available by then, but had not been in 1965. My take on it is that the original 1950s PAs disappeared very soon after I started (Feb 1965) when Galibiers red & black jobs took the name, as you suggest, in a cash motivated move by M. Allain. There was then a short hiatus until the blue and white shoes re-emerged as EBs. People said they were less slim and precise than original PAs, but still the best around and dominated for another decade or more until the first shoes with stickier rubber came along. Early 80s? My first shoes that weren't EBs were Asolo Canyons but even their amazing stickiness was eclipsed a little while later by the Boreal Firé.
By this time I'd come to realise that I'd reached the limits imposed by my talent, for despite the sticky rubber, micro nuts, Friends and even the dreaded chalk, I was just about managing to retain my standard but wasn't improving. And never have really. Like you:
That'd be about right I reckon Trevor - I had my pair of RDs in 1969 so they were clearly available by then, but had not been in 1965. My take on it is that the original 1950s PAs disappeared very soon after I started (Feb 1965) when Galibiers red & black jobs took the name, as you suggest, in a cash motivated move by M. Allain. There was then a short hiatus until the blue and white shoes re-emerged as EBs. People said they were less slim and precise than original PAs, but still the best around and dominated for another decade or more until the first shoes with stickier rubber came along. Early 80s? My first shoes that weren't EBs were Asolo Canyons but even their amazing stickiness was eclipsed a little while later by the Boreal Firé.
By this time I'd come to realise that I'd reached the limits imposed by my talent, for despite the sticky rubber, micro nuts, Friends and even the dreaded chalk, I was just about managing to retain my standard but wasn't improving. And never have really. Like you:
> I must be a sad oldie!
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In reply to Martin Bennett:
RDs were definitely in use by other climbers when I bought my first pair of masters in early 1965. Later in 1965 one of my new climbing partners chose RDs as his first rock boots.
RDs were definitely in use by other climbers when I bought my first pair of masters in early 1965. Later in 1965 one of my new climbing partners chose RDs as his first rock boots.
In reply to mikej:
That being the case I guess my ignorance of 'em could have been that the only two shops I frequented didn't stock them. That'd be Frank Davies in Ambleside (now The Climbers Shop) and PSD - Preston Sports Depot - anybody else remember that?
> RDs were definitely in use by other climbers when I bought my first pair of masters in early 1965. Later in 1965 one of my new climbing partners chose RDs as his first rock boots.
That being the case I guess my ignorance of 'em could have been that the only two shops I frequented didn't stock them. That'd be Frank Davies in Ambleside (now The Climbers Shop) and PSD - Preston Sports Depot - anybody else remember that?
In reply to davidbeynon:
Thanks. That was a lovely 8min of my life, though rather stressful towards the end!!
Utterly charming, but I am glad I think that I got into climbing mid-90s (sorry, just not brave enough!).
Thanks. That was a lovely 8min of my life, though rather stressful towards the end!!
Utterly charming, but I am glad I think that I got into climbing mid-90s (sorry, just not brave enough!).
In reply to BlownAway:
I had a pair given to me by a uni friend who gave up climbing soon after getting the shoes. He had had them fitted at the RL shop and they had a 'leather shim' in the heel to 'snug' up the fit.
I had a pair given to me by a uni friend who gave up climbing soon after getting the shoes. He had had them fitted at the RL shop and they had a 'leather shim' in the heel to 'snug' up the fit.
1
In reply to davidbeynon:
I stared climbing backend of 69 my mate gave me a pair of original late 50s Pa yes they became EBs but wider I then had a pair of Gollies given to me by Jack Street in 1970, great shoe I thought but when they changed to the spider they were pretty crap so back to EBs .
keith s
I stared climbing backend of 69 my mate gave me a pair of original late 50s Pa yes they became EBs but wider I then had a pair of Gollies given to me by Jack Street in 1970, great shoe I thought but when they changed to the spider they were pretty crap so back to EBs .
keith s
4
In reply to davidbeynon:
Does anyone remember the name of some rockboots that were made in N. Wales late 70s?
I remember going on a school trip there in summer 77 or 78 and we all bright blue rock shoes (Hawkins or Gollies?) but we bought some in N. Wales made locally that were brown/yellow
Does anyone remember the name of some rockboots that were made in N. Wales late 70s?
I remember going on a school trip there in summer 77 or 78 and we all bright blue rock shoes (Hawkins or Gollies?) but we bought some in N. Wales made locally that were brown/yellow
In reply to Carless:
In 1978 there was an independent climbing boot manufacturer (Bryn Boots) operating from a shop/workshop located up a side street in Llanberis. They made cheap rock boots and mountaineering boots for centres, etc, and some better quality boots for instructors. I had my 1965 Kastinger Mt Blanc boots repaired there, and tried on some of their rock boots, etc. Unfortunately I do not remember the name of the rock boots or their colour.
Bryn Boots eventually relocated to Bethesda.
In 1978 there was an independent climbing boot manufacturer (Bryn Boots) operating from a shop/workshop located up a side street in Llanberis. They made cheap rock boots and mountaineering boots for centres, etc, and some better quality boots for instructors. I had my 1965 Kastinger Mt Blanc boots repaired there, and tried on some of their rock boots, etc. Unfortunately I do not remember the name of the rock boots or their colour.
Bryn Boots eventually relocated to Bethesda.
In reply to davidbeynon:
Wow. Awesome video. Thanks for posting. It's amazing to look back at what climbing was back then and just how different it is now.
Wow. Awesome video. Thanks for posting. It's amazing to look back at what climbing was back then and just how different it is now.
In reply to Trevor Langhorne:
I didn't use real rock boots (EB)until well into my third year of climbing.
After army stores boots I graduated to Kletts from Ellis Brigham and these were good enough for Peak and N Wales Severes.
I didn't use real rock boots (EB)until well into my third year of climbing.
After army stores boots I graduated to Kletts from Ellis Brigham and these were good enough for Peak and N Wales Severes.
In reply to mikej:
He also operated a really good climbers bunkhouse as well. We had a great club dinner there and I slept on the lawn and did Dream of White Horses the following day.
He also operated a really good climbers bunkhouse as well. We had a great club dinner there and I slept on the lawn and did Dream of White Horses the following day.
In reply to davidbeynon:
when your nuts start zinging :o
'knowing the nature of the protection tended to make you very careful'
when your nuts start zinging :o
'knowing the nature of the protection tended to make you very careful'
Post edited at 08:12
1
In reply to davidbeynon: I only recall seeing MOACs in one size? Is that correct?
1
In reply to wbo:
I thought there was a "baby" MOAC but have just found that there were four sizes altogether.
I thought there was a "baby" MOAC but have just found that there were four sizes altogether.
Post edited at 10:53
In reply to Tom Valentine:
If I remember correctly, moac and baby were around first, the 4 sizes came later.
I'm not convinced that they were all congruent (I think that's the correct word).
I've still got my moac, lovely nut. But my all time favourite was the chouinard double curved no 6, unfortunately left in place many years ago in the gathering gloom at Goblin Coombe.
If I remember correctly, moac and baby were around first, the 4 sizes came later.
I'm not convinced that they were all congruent (I think that's the correct word).
I've still got my moac, lovely nut. But my all time favourite was the chouinard double curved no 6, unfortunately left in place many years ago in the gathering gloom at Goblin Coombe.
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