UKC

Hi

Looking at the new Rockfax crag App for Shorncliff I noticed that a route has been renamed. It is in the CC guide as 'One Less White N*****'...obviously this could be seen as an offensive name. There have been many threads over the years about offensive route names but I'm just interested to know the mechanism by which this was changed. Was it at the request of the first ascensionist, or was it a Rockfax decision? If the latter should that be 'allowed'?

One Less White Oliver (VS 4c) 

Can't answer your question and doubtful I'll ever visit the venue. If somebody shouted over to me "What are you climbing?" I wouldn't feel to happy shouting back the old route name. That said, I'd be interested as to how they decided on the original name.

Reference to the lyrics of Oliver's Army by Elvis Costello.

Rockfax not supporting outdated language, and as a company they can do what they want, with their publications, personally i think they are righting things that should have been sorted long ago. History can record the original name but I much prefer our pastime was more inclusive. That it references a song lyrics doesn't matter out of context it is offensive 

It's a line from a song - Oliver's Army by Elvis Costello & the Attractions

"There was a Checkpoint Charlie
He didn't crack a smile
But it's no laughing party
When you've been on the murder mile
Only takes one itchy trigger
One more widow, one less white n*****"

Loads of 'historic' offensive route names were discussed and changed last year, like this one: https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/chudleigh_rocks_-_south_face-291/j...

We chose to change the name quickly rather than keep the word on UKC. There was no mechanism other than we tried to keep some original meaning in the name and in the interest of time, wanted the word off UKC as quickly as possible. Often when these things are put to a committee it takes a long time to change (some names at Chudleigh took about 8 months to be decided) and we prefer a more proactive approach.

Like Graeme said above, we were changing something that probably should have been looked at years ago. If the first ascensionists want to get in touch to suggest a new name we would be happy to change it.

Nick

Thanks for the info Nick - Seems like a fair and pragmatic approach.

I haven't heard this on the radio for a while, is it still played and if so is it modified?

Don't "not visit" this venue on account of a route name. the routes here are fantastic (trad limestone), and right next door to "... Oliver" is a classic HVS, "Emotional Dyslexia" which may or may not get renamed in future decades as & when "dyslexia" becomes an unacceptable term (as has "Spastics" in recent decades).  

Yes - I think they have just "erased " the "n" word, am sure i heard it on R2 and it ended at about the "less" word. (Shouldn't it be "fewer" ...? </pedant>)

I don't think people with dyslexia have been marginalised and abused to the same extent (or at all?) that black people or people with cerebral palsy have. 

Just on these grounds. I just couldn't be bothered trying to explain that the route name was historic etc. especially to a non-climber.

Route names should be practical, we're not talking Of Mice and Men here. 

Completely agree. 

But semantics have changed, & what was acceptable in the 1980s or 90s isn't now. And society does seem to be getting more eager to take offence now. 

I'm going to avoid taking the bait as I feel there is no need to reawaken this potentially unpleasant "culture wars" debate in a public forum, but might message you on FB if that's alright with you, as I am interested to know more about your viewpoint!

- Liera (person who removed your stuck cam from Clarion this summer )

hi Liera - I don't spend much time on here so wasn't aware of any debate around this!  It's not bait - just my opinion, & watching things change over the past 30+ years (an easy example is that when I was young, the term "half - c**te" was completely acceptable, I'll no doubt get some down-arrows for even suggesting it on here). also in the 70s we used to sing along to Mr Costellos' song on the radio/Top of the Pops and no one "cancelled" us.... (cue more down-arrows)..... but yeah sure i know it's 100% not OK in this day & age. 

Fire away on facebook if you like!  And thanks again - that cam is in my museum of treasured gear!  

I think that "completely acceptable" terms such as those mentioned in this thread were in common usage, but were always offensive to those that were the subject of those terms.  

However, we now live in a society where we don't marginalise and disregard the concerns of minority groups such as those with disabilities or ethnic minorities so we are more aware that those terms are offensive, rather than more people are being offended.

Quite, living in a more inclusive society is no bad thing! I'm sure not many have issues with the lyrics of Oliver's Army once the full context is explained (and I think Costello was/is a prominent anti racism campaigner) but it's quite difficult to get that across via the medium of a rockfax topo!

Culture wars are Bullshit 

I climbed Bastard at llanymynach this year I appreciate the original name wasn't ment to be racist but it's hardly something I would want to try to explain to black friends. Well done UKC for a sensible and pragmatic approach.

True. (first para) second para: I do feel I see (more now due to other factors, eg general frustration at Brexit/pandemic, maybe?) people who are out there, online & keen to take offence. 

I'm reminded of a junior sports trip, v early 80s, when I was about 16 - overseas, one Irish lad amongst us.  All the "alpha" boys on the trip tore the piss out of him constantly, mimicking an Irish accent, Irish cliche's,  and  calling him "Paddy" (his name wasn't Patrick).  He just had to take it. 

I made the once in a lifetime mistake of, once, "joining in", and he got me alone & shoved me against the wall & told me in no uncertain terms what would happen to me should I ever do that again.  I knew I had been wrong - I was 16 & being immature, trying to imitate the "leaders". 

So terms in common usage, but not acceptable. Thanks for the lesson..  

Yes I agree - I don't think there was racist intent either in the naming of the route, nor the lyric which it's taken from but regardless of that I think it was sensible of Rockfax to make this amend.

I must admit, despite knowing Elvis Costello and this song, I wouldn't have known that this was an lyric from the song but perhaps that says more about my ability to remember lyrics than the reference!  

Is that "know personally" or "know of"?

Spastics was generally used as a slur hence the change to Scope from The Spastic Society, dyslexia/ dyslexics has thankfully not suffered that, probably due to it being an unseen disability/ condition and the fact that the cowards who would use those slurs are usually looking to punch waaaay down. Please don't try and stir controversy where there is none.

Ha, good question!

That should be "know of" of course, but then my Mum and Dad did used to live next door to Bruce, the bassist from The Attractions so we almost know each other?

Well almost, almost know him.  Elvis never used to pop round.

If we're being absolutely fair, that's proving his point. 

Clearly the Spastic Society was a perfectly acceptable name at the time (or why else would a charity choose it) and over time the word was claimed by bigots. Scope was chosen as a name that would be difficult to produce a slur from although this has hurt its recongisability somewhat. Calling people Black used to be a slur and coloured the more enlighted form and now we have the complete 180 situation. In America 'African American' is often preferred to 'black' and we have the Native American vs Indian debate too which is divisive within the population itself and not nearly as clear cut as you may think.

I think we're probably on the cusp of many other words becoming slurs such as 'immigrant', 'refugees', 'Muslim' and many others. They are certainly frequently used that way. 

I've definitely heard austistic, retarded, on the spectrum, and even dislexic used in derogotary ways. It's not exactly a stretch at all. 

The question is, what do we do about it? Don't go out to offend people is a good start which is why I'm all for changing some of these names. Intent is absolutely key too, and I think we could be a little more charitable with the older generations at times (when in goodfaith) they slip into outdated terminology. 

I just accidentally pressed "Report". I have no idea what it does but apologies for my clumsiness.

Ah, it's not the route name that puts me off visiting, just the fact that it's a long way off, I don't own a guidebook for it and I live on the edge of the Peak District. I'm sure there's some great routes down there.

See also CCS Disability Action in NZ. Previously, the Crippled Children's Society. Set up with the best of intentions, with a name left behind in the late 20th century.

The way we frame things changes over time and as long as we are growing up rather than infantilising the debate (which is what the majority of the "why can't I say x any more, everyone knows what I mean and we all used to use it all the time" comments on social media generally are) then that's overall a good thing.

b

But then you get over reaction as well. For example the reporting of the racism at Yorkshire cricket club where nobody seems able to actually mention the offending words and when somebody does (new chairman Lord Patel), the BBC bleeps him out - which IMO is ridiculous.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not minimising the issue of racism at YCC, there's obviously a problem there that needs sorting. Merely grumbling about the inane reporting.

It seems ridiculous to me to avoid using a word when you're talking about the inappropriate/offensive use of that word.

Multiple insulting terms originally started off as descriptions of learning/physical difficulties, and I expect this process will continue. 

Stupid, idiot, moron and imbecile were all used for varying degrees of learning difficulties. "Retard" came from "mentally retarded". 

Your potted history has some inaccuracies, which reflect a general "state of confusion and wonder" amongst some, who ask "how did we get here?" and seem to feel, vaguely, that Twitter is to blame. So, to try to explain...

"Spasticity" is a medical term, with a Greek etymology, which I understand is used to indicate a loss of control over muscles, causing them to hyperreflex. It didn't magically switch from acceptable to unacceptable as a way of designating people with certain disabilities. Rather, in a society that completely disregarded and denigrated people with disabilities, those people fought back, demanding dignity and respect. The term "spastic", which had become a common slur, became one site upon which to demand respect - and now it is considered completely unacceptable to use it either to indicate people with certain disabilities or as an insult. Given its medical meaning, it was never a very precise way of indicating specific disabilities anyway.

"Black" was never a slur. Since at least the early 20th century, there has been a movement to encourage black pride. After the Civil War in the US, "colored" was used as a self-designation, but it became deeply associated with segregation in Jim Crow America, with "white" and "colored" being used to designate separate facilities. The same can be said of "negro". These terms associated with segregation and white supremacy were consequently shunned by the mid-twentieth century emancipatory movements, which increasingly used "black" and "African American" to assert pride and self-indentity beyond Jim Crow. They were also ways of connecting US-based emancipatory struggles to other global struggles, including independence movements in African nations, with Pan-Africanism being an important strand of thought within the US black liberation movements since at least the 19th century and being popularised in the early C20th by Marcus Garvey.

The common thread here is that terms don't just change because "tastes change". They change because of social struggles.

In this context, it is not surprising that you feel neutral words like 'immigrant', 'refugees', 'Muslim' are becoming terms of denigration, because for the past two decades (and more) the racist UK state has attacked the rights and dignity of social groups that are identified through these racialising terms. To be considered "Muslim" in our racist society is no longer strictly about your religious beliefs: it is often used like "P**i" was once used, as a way of denigrating as "suspicious" and inferior anyone who happens to appear to have Arab heritage (not only by people in the street, but also by the BBC). Today we have a Home Office and media ecology that is rabidly racist, practically frothing at the mouth about its "right" to drown, incarcerate and generally neglect the wellbeing and safety of people who seem "foreign" or happen to be trying to seek refuge in the UK without papers. Rather than being a emancipatory social struggle, this is a struggle by the forces of reaction, but it also has its effects on language.

Likewise, I wouldn't be surprised if language is being used increasingly to denigrate people with disabilities, as our government has attacked the rights and wellbeing of disabled people for the last decade - so that we are now in the ridiculous situation of seeing MPs defending their corruption on the basis that they need extra income to provide for disabled relatives, since they spent the last 10 years cutting away at the support for disabled people...

"What do we do about it?", you ask. I agree that we can all be a little more understanding and forgiving of each other. But, it is important to recognise that this is not just a "culture war" being stirred on Twitter about "politically correct" language. These changes in language reflect actual struggles over the rights and dignity of social groups, with reactionary politicians deliberately trivialising and misrepresenting these struggles so as to deflect their critiques. The key thing is not to "use the right terms", though, but to stop supporting and voting in reactionaries who feel that attacking the most vulnerable or marginalised is a way to shore-up popular support.

No worries! It's a great crag, I've done most of it (at my mediocre level now), & in fact am more likely to investigate the Peak in future myself!  Grit & Limestone

I've yet to find a trad limestone crag that I prefer. .. yet! (& that includes... the Avon gorge) 

'One Less White Oliver' is a bit weak. Should have been 'One Less White Snigger'.

I do actually think "Only Takes One Itchy Trigger" or "One More Widow" sound like better names and are closer to the spirit of the original...

Yes, very true.

Interestingly, many routes at Shorn Cliff were first climbed in the 70's but the manuscript was lost (although I do know the person that has it). So maybe OLWN has an original 70's name?

I have to disagree.  When I was growing up in the 1960s to call someone "black" would have been considered offensive, and probably intended to be.  The politically correct terms (although that phrase wasn't then used) were "negro" or "coloured".  Then this became reversed, so "black" is now the acceptable term and to use the other words is now offensive (although one of the leading civil rights movements in the US is still called the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People).  r0x0r.wolfo was right to say there has been a 180 degree turn.

No doubt you are right that this was a result of the civil rights movement and black people deciding for themselves how they wanted to be referred to, just as they reclaimed the n-word for themselves. But before then "black" was a slur.

Of course we should be sensitive about how we use language. The problem is that changing the label doesn't remove the discrimination, which quickly contaminates the new word as well.  We end up tying ourselves in knots over language (particularly in these over-censorious times) without addressing the underlying issues.

Different contexts, maybe! It's not something I've come across, but if you say so I won't disagree. I suppose in the UK, in more recent years the emphasis has been on recognising the diversity of diasporic populations and attempting to use more precise language to show respect, rather than "coloured"/"white".

The NAACP has a long history! You can see why they wouldn't change their name.

I think we agree more or less that being sensitive is important, but addressing the underlying issues is more important than fighting battles over semantics. Of course, with regard to the OP, Rockfax's efforts to deal with names, whilst relatively low on the priority list, was directly responding to the question of how to make ethnic minorities feel more welcome within "the outdoor community", in the wake of the global BLM movement, which exposed how white supremacy pervades all spheres of our societies. So, I'm all for the renamings.

are we quoting a certain Human Traffic film here by any chance..?  

"There was a Checkpoint Charlie
He didn't crack a smile
But it's no laughing party
When you've been on the murder mile
Only takes one itchy trigger
One more widow, one less white n****r."

You been to Beeston Tor? Yum yum yum!

Not yet but I've read the guide & am keen! One day! 

Ah - i missed that back in the day!   

Here's my reference point:  youtube.com/watch?v=EeKRLRQPFzQ&

That would be interesting reading. 

Trust me. There aren’t. It’s a nice enough spot, but there really are not any great routes.

jcm

So very well put. Brought a smile to my face over my morning coffee. 

Howard is right as far as UK use is concerned: in the 50s and 60s , coloured was definitely the preferred choice over "black" in the media  and in education. Black only became acceptable after the 1968 Olympics.

Absolutely. In about 1965 or 6 my parents briefly put up an unmarried young black woman from their church who was thrown out of her lodgings when she became pregnant. One of my earliest memories is being told that I mustn’t call her ‘black’ but that ‘coloured’ or ‘negro’ were the polite terms.  

jcm

All subjective. Most of my climbing pals from the last 20+ years think Shorncliff is awesome. 

For eg. https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/shorn_cliff-39/the_laughing_cavali...

There's no argument here, but I have to say i wouldnt' "trust" that opinion. 

BTW This just popped up (I wasn't looking for it ) - Laura Kuenssberg of the BBC ".... faced allegations of racism after using the phrase 'nitty gritty' while discussing Downing Street business on the Brexitcast.  The term “nitty-gritty” was reportedly banned by Sky Sports last year over the concerns about its origins in the slave trade - which are disputed by some linguistics experts."

So was she being deliberately "racist" there? Hmm. Seems monumentally unlikely. Is this snowflakey or people just trying to knock her / find reasons to be "offended" (where there are none)

Source: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1509729/Laura-Kuenssberg-salary-how-much-...

There a quite a few great routes there. Unless you set Vector as your benchmark for 'great'

I think I understand the point being made in the song is about the treatment of Catholics and/or Republicans by the British army in Northern Ireland and comparing to the treatment of African Americans (or people of African Heritage generally though I tend to think of that word as being used in the USA, with other terms used more in the UK) and their fight for civil rights.

I'm not sure it's a lyrical choice that would be made today, but it's making a serious point.

As a route name I think it sounds like  someone trying to be edgy and clever by being shocking, 'but it's not offensive coz I took it from a song lyric'. I think in that context it's just juvenile and leaves us in a constant state of having to explain ourselves. 

It may have been 'a different time' when the route was first named but I'm pretty sure the word would have been considered offensive by lots of people then. Elvis Costello new it had shock value when he wrote the song.

I'm glad to see the name changed. Sometimes (like with statues) you can argue about this stuff for years with people who consider racism to be a protected characteristic, or just spend 5 minutes sorting the problem out.

https://www.songfacts.com/facts/elvis-costello/olivers-army

We used to play Elvis Costello tapes driving to the crags back in the 80s. The above information about “Oliver’s Army” is well worth a read. 

Was the M. Ward listed at the first ascensionist Matt? If so, he's still very active in the local scene so I'm sure could be contacted. 'One Less White Oliver' is a rubbish name.

Personally, the problem I find with a lot of terms is not so much that dickheads get ahold of them and start using them as weapons (after all, that will happen with whatever word you use to describe a minority group), it's more that a word often relates to a 'default', which is different to the person in question (the default is obviously a white, able-bodied male). For instance 'coloured' implies the default of white. I'm sure that 'Black' became acceptable because it makes a lot more sense, as a parallel to 'White'. 'Disabled' implies that there is a default ability and that someone in a wheelchair, for example, is different to that. A lot of terms people at one time thought were acceptable are absolutely abhorrent when you dig into what they mean ('Invalid' for example).      

And a bit of climbing chat for good measure: Shorncliff is a great venue for VS - E2; the best trad in the Wye valley in my opinion. 

I would guess the first ascentionist is ‘the other’ Matt Ward. Although he may still be locally active too, for all I know.

In reply to Phil Murray: Laughing C is nice enough, but it’s not a great route. A great route is one which any climber might aspire to do. LC is the very epitome of a local classic.

jcm

I visited shorncliff earlier this year and thought it was a great crag, better than a lot of my local peak lime ones (that is considering that basically all inland uk limestone crags are shitty polished chossholes😉)

Programming with input via a keyboard.

Also here to say I don't care. At all.

I agree. This isn't a debate about Elvis Costello's use of the word, it's about the appropriateness of the line out of context as a route name.

Based on a quick Google, there seems to be a lot of noise about this story from the right-wing press despite the fact that it's literally talking about one complaint, which the BBC (understandably) rejected. Given that they probably get more complaints than that about hidden satanic messages in the Countdown letters, I'd say it's mostly about right-wingers making stuff up (again) to try to justify their whiney narrative that it's anti-racism campaigners who are the /real/ oppressors.

Edit: the fact that Countdown isn't on the BBC is neither here nor there - the sort of people who complain about unhinged stuff aren't going to worry about a technicality like that.

Ah I could well be thinking of a different Matt Ward.

Ethics are a funny business, aren't they. If you wanted to retro-bolt an old manky trad line, you would be expected to make every effort to contact the first ascensionist for their blessing; yet you can seemingly change the name of a trade route and say on a forum they in all likelihood don't read 'if the FA want to get in touch, they're welcome to'. 

I'm not saying the name should not have been changed (it absolutely should have been, years ago) but I hope that the current name is just a stop-gap until a proper replacement can be found. The naming of a first ascent should be sacred; I imagine a lot of thought (even if it was misplaced) and excitement go into it. I've not put up a route myself, but I don't imagine I'd be particularly happy if someone changed it without trying to speak to me about it. 

I believe Rockfax are working on a guidebook for the area as we speak. What will the plan be with this route? I would hope they would try and get in touch with M. Ward and R. Kingston for a replacement name. After all, Rockfax's business relies on FAs putting up these routes and I would hope they would show some respect beyond changing it to something they think is roughly connected and saying 'they can get in touch if they feel like it'.    

I have to agree about it being a rubbish name. I would favour changing it to "Oliver's Army" which would refer to the inspiration without mangling it.

Never heard of any race connotations of 'nitty gritty'. "Get down to the nitty gritty" is a commonly used phrase, like "the business end" of a championship, negotiations etc. It's almost certain she wasn't being racist, like it's almost certain people were trying to find fault with her for, well, no reason at all.

FWIW I'd have gone with "One Less..."

People who'd climbed the route before with it's old name wouldn't get confused that it's a different route, and it's immediately obvious why it's been changed.

But look, Rockfax guys had to make a quick decision on the fly, they haven't got days to sit around and discuss it like we have so credit where it's due, they made the right decision to make the change and what's in a name anyway?

Agree..... I wasn't aware of "nitty gritty" having any issues, either, and have used it since ages ago.

Knockers going out seeking to find stuff to criticise people for anything..... not good. 

It was a single complaint which wasn’t upheld. It has only been reported because it further stokes a culture war and drives division in society. Don’t fall for it.  

I remember wondering when this was changed why it wasn't to 'One more widow'. Seemed the obvious choice.

I thought the same thing. Much better name. Although not really appropriate for this route. I avoided the route the first few times I was at Shorncliff because I thought that the name was an oblique reference to "one more widow", and so the route must be a dangerous sandbag. It's no such thing.

Makes it sound like a chop route!

Sexist pig!

Haha nice one! 

I watched Eiger Sanction on BBC4 last night (mainly for the Eiger views, which are awesome) ,but was horrified how sexist the film was. not seen it for at least 25 years. When it came out it was the epitome of cool macho ideal - Clint, fighting, hard man rock climbing etc. Clint does look great - but nearly all the female parts were sexy "dolly birds" with nothing clever to say and usually ended up having their "butts slapped".  God we have come a long way (I hope) (& & probably need to go further.) 

The race thing seems to be an apparent connection with the French word "nigritique", which translates as "negroid", and a suggestion that it was used to refer to the sweepings from the slave ships.  The problem with this is that there doesn't seem to be any actual evidence of the word until the mid-20th century, by black American jazz musicians and with the meaning it still has today.  In the absence of any evidence, the slavery link seems to be entirely imaginary and spurious.

Indeed; it's disgraceful.

It's about time the grammar was corrected...

I've been mulling over this. Let's say we're talking cars. Neither one fewer white car, nor one fewer white cars sound right. One less white car does sound right, though.

One white car fewer.

Hadn’t thought of that. And people say word order isn’t important in the English language.

A song about mercenaries going to war for money, obviously 

And it’s alongside ‘ Black is Beautiful’

pinch of salt me thinks

Agreed. I was criticised for using "nitty-gritty" by a colleague around 15 years ago on the basis that it referred to slave ship debris, but there doesn't seem to be reliable evidence.  The same colleague acknowledged this later. I still prefer not to use it though, as clearly some people think it's dubious, but the criticism of Laura K was OTT in my opinion.

FWIW, Shorncliff is an excellent cliff - the 30 minute walk adds to the experience. "Oliver's Army" would be a sensible replacement name fully in the spirit of the original. I agree the first ascensionists should be consulted if possible.

Martin