UKC

Last year I was climbing Ardverikie Wall (HS 4b) and there were a French pair there behind us. They had what I can only describe as a “belay whistle” which haunted us for most of the ascent with its single and double blasts presumably meaning “safe” and “on belay”. Having never utilised anything other than shouts (sometimes very loud), rope tugs in pre arranged numbers, and on one occasion a phone call, I’ve never seen such tactics. But it seemed like a good idea! (Though my gf has just suggested my powder horn could be a useful tool in communicating “ON BELAY”). So my question is, what are your tactics to advise a partner, other than the traditional holler?

People who scream ON BEEEEEELAY    (And other associated bollocks) all day at the top of their voice can just f*ck right off.  A whistle? We’d be having words. 

A tug of the rope and half a brain seems to work just fine most of the time. 

Edit: I should point out the worst place I’ve ever climbed for this behaviour is tremadog. arseholes rock up and scream their stupid cretin heads off all day. You can hear from the  next crag along. I am certain these people use instagram regularly. #stopshoutingyoucockwomble

Three very violent tugs on the rope. Then a gap, then three more. Meaning 'I'm safe/Taking in'. Then, if the rope/s didn't soon go slack, meaning the second had taken the rope/s out of the belay device, three more violent tugs. Of course, a lot could go wrong with this system if there was a lot of rope drag ...

”french trad climbers”

We do 3 for safe and 5 for on belay. I feel like a good few blasts of a powder horn would have more gravitas and, most importantly, lolz associated with it though. 

I usually scream on belay, this usually works well in notifying others around me that I am about to set out on a boulder problem and scream safe, once I have topped out and have applied lotion to any chapped skin.

Hands free ofcourse. #JohnnyDawes

That would be wholly irresponsible unless you additionally tried to sell me your autobiography at a cheap rate in Stanage Plantation carpark.

Met some people on Shepherds Crag who had short wave intercom/radios. The problem with these is you get interference from other people in the area using the same wavelength. Can be very confusing, I imagine. Had the advantage of being very quiet.

Can gear boffins not come up with a system where you can transmit your voice using the rope as a “wire”? A copper mesh woven into the sheath of the rope for example?

I thought it was only Americans who used "On Belay". I think the word "belay" is best avoided in clear crag communication because it can refer both to attachment to the rock and safeguarding a partner on the rope. Aren't the standard conventions "safe" and "climb when ready".  That's what I've always used anyway.

I like clear verbal communication. I've had climbing partners who are reluctant to use it and it can lead to all sorts of confusion. Rope tugs are a back up in my view.

I think a rope was manufactured some time ago with conversation being possible through a central wire. Don't know if its still made. 

I have had great success by attaching yogurt pots to the ends of the rope.

Great idea. Obviously rendered aforementioned rope obsolete.

Useful for comments such as: "Hurry up you slow ****",   "Hey you, you're gonna die" and "You're climbing sh*t" but little else. 

That was the cordless version.... which worked less well, being basically 2 yogurt pots.

Yoghurt pots?

The problem with this idea is that you’d need a taut and direct line between the pots.

Static rope necessary. Hard to find in normal gear shops. 

There was rope with this arrangement. I remember 30+ years ago and saw it on Tomorrows World with the climbers trialling it at the Roaches, on a very windy day to proove the point.

I once came across a London type with one of those on the Idwal Slabs. He announce his arrival at each belay with "The Eagle has landed".

That’s actually quite funny though. And more so for the dogged repetition. 

Semaphore
Telepathy
Email
Letter
Landline
Smoke signals
Telegram
Valentine Card
Sign Language
If leading: drop the rope
If seconding: 500-kilo tug on the rope

That featured in an article in Climber magazine years ago titled something like 'the stupidest climbing gear ever'.

I have a connection with regular partners that renders verbal communication obsolete.

Imitating the calls of nocturnal or non-native wild birds, such as owls.  The calls of native species active in daylight are avoided to prevent accidents.

If seconding Bernie up the top pitch of The Grooves on Cyrn Las (true story): [1] Scream "Take in you fat BASTARD what are you doing up there are you asleep??? I said TAKE IN!!!" [2] Try to ignore the 20-foot loops of slack waving in the wind below my feet

Has the "3 tugs" method ever worked other than on 8 meter grit routes? I find one I'm a rope length out, the rope absorbs even the most furious tugging  

Is that a European or African swallow?

#butwhathavetheydoneongrit

I find making an audible intake of breath followed by “I haven’t seen it done like that before” always ensures my climbing partner knows I have full confidence in them and their safety.

Shouting 'safe' seems like an all round bad idea; too easily mistaken for 'take' /vice versa. If you're about to fall, shouting 'take!', only to have someone take you off belay, well, I'm sure someone somewhere has died as a result. Better to shout:

Climber: 'On belay?' - Belayer: 'Belay on!' (start climb)

Climber: 'Off belay!" - Belayer: 'Belay off"' (end climb - instead of 'safe')

 

All these "belays" "on" and "off" are potentially very confusing. Wait till there are other climbers around shouting more or less the same thing at around the same time. Then add a wind... a common phenomenon on mountain crags or mountains. Then add an echo. 

A system of rope tugs is the way to go.

So safe and take are too similar but on and off are fine??

I actually used this many years ago. You wore a helmet that had a headset velcro attached inside, battery pack on lanyard or clipped to belt with the cable plugging into the end of the rope.

Guy who bought it was Ray Dring of Bowline club in Leicester.

On Malbogies it was very useful at cutting out the traffic noise.

Years ago everyone managed just fine with basic belaying devices and a couple of pre  agreed calls or tugs. Now it's autolock this, radios etc..

It would be shame for the next generation to miss out on the joy of being 50m up on a wild winter's day and suddenly running out of rope and have to scratch around for 20mins hunting for anything, then bring they second up on a half placed warthog.

Actually the standard (non-American) calls of 'Safe', 'Off Belay', 'Climb when ready!' and 'Climbing!' are well known, and shouldn't be mistaken. Generally folk only shout 'take' (and even then they would perhaps be better shouting 'tight') when in sight and sound of their belayer, such as on a tricky but not-too-long sport route or trad pitch. If you're 40m up and out of sight of your belayer there's little point in shouting that, given that they may well not hear you properly anyway - better to just keep fighting or down climb to gear/rest. 

Of course, near the end of a ropelength on a wild day the chances are neither will be able to hear the other anyway, so climbers learn to interpret the likely position of their partner based on the movement of the rope. When it seems like my partner is unlikely to hear me I may skip 'Safe' and just use 'Climb when ready!', as this and 'Climbing!' are really the two most important calls and hopefully one of us will hear the other. Really the calls are just to make things easier, like not having to pull up a rope which is still fed through a belay device, though if communication isn't possible one might just have to do that anyway.  

Coverage is pretty good now, so even in the alps on windy days I’ve given my second a call via mobile phone. Not very often, admittedly, but useful. I’ve also led a couple of routes with my phone connected and earphones in, with a ‘barracking’ team at the bottom providing a pretty scathing commentary on style and technique, really good fun. Soon descended into swearing and personal insults though...

Fnar fnar!

I've always worried that with a rope tug system, accidental/unintentional tugs could result in you being taken off belay when you weren't actually safe.

Perhaps not the most efficient system but if all else fails I've always just kept paying out rope until there is only about a meter of left and then hold the rope tight until they stop pulling. Then take them off belay and only start climbing once you start feeling regular tugs on the rope again.

9 times out of 10 a thumbs up is all that is needed.  

Absolutely. Especially when there is a bit of drag anyway.

Yes, if in doubt don't take someone off.

You would only say 'belay on/on belay' at the start of the climb and you would only say 'off belay/belay off' at the end of the climb, so if used in this way, there is little chance of confusion. 

I guess it's just opinion; depending on what you read, different people/organisations recommend different things. I should know better than to preach.

Starting a climb with a common understanding/plan of communication is most important, but for me personally having had an issue with this before (although preventable in hindsight), I just don't say 'safe' anymore. That's me. 

The "standard" calls in the UK were as follows

Runner on -  I never saw the point of that one.

I'm there - Again IMO uneccessary

Taking in - Leader to second.  Debatable, this should be obvious from the speed of the rope moving.

That's me - Second advising that the rope between them is tight. Some value.

Climb when ready - Some value.

Climbing - debatable.

Take in - Sometimes essential.

Slack - Again sometimes essential.

I stopped using them all, apart from slack and take in, in the late 70's after witnessing an accident caused as a direct result of miscommunication between adjacent parties.  In over 50 years of climbing I can only think of a couple of occasions when lack of verbal communication caused serious issues.  Think about it, if you are not in communication with a partner and the rope gets stuck, probably this is the most likely issue, what can you do.  As a leader, not much other than after a significant amount of time abseil to investigate.  As a second, if the rope is taught you have to climb, if there is too much slack the best solution is to tie knots to take up the slack or attach a prussic and climb.  Tugs on the rope can work but not in this scenario.

With sport climbing, even indoors, there seems to be a growing trend to encourage verbal communication.  Is it really necessary to advise your belayer that you are about to step off the ground or that you are putting a runner on.  Any belayer worth his salt should be watching you, if you suspect he or she is not then fair enough.  There is also a common habit of shouting safe when at the lower off.  Why, to what end?  If a crag is quite I may use some of the calls but never when there are other climbers around within earshot.

Al

 Rockfax  is evidently trialing an app where you'll both be able to log onto the route you're climbing, each pitch will have icons to tap for "On-belay", "Taking in", "Climb when ready" etc. So far it looks promising though they are having minor problems with a hands free version for "TIGHT TIGHT"

One call that seems essential to me is "Below!" - that is, I am sending up to half a ton of rocks straight down towards you

Even for that I prefer the American, and more generic, "Rock!" as it's intuitive to use in any rockfall alert situation rather than just when you kick something off below you.

I used to use walkie-talkies at Swanage because of the noise from the sea, nowadays I'd instagram my partner a picture of the rope threaded through a rabbit hole belay.

I stopped using rope tugs when rope drag and a stuck rope left me off belay soloing to the next stance.

It's not very intuitive if you have been using "below" for 50 years   Seriously though, either shouted loud enough, would probably have the desired affect.

Al

Not essential but it's sometime hard to tell whether someone is taking in or just on easy ground. Of course, if in doubt, you keep belaying, but this could be time spent getting ready to climb.

I once saw a top roper deck out as a result of shouting "take in slack" on a windy day.

 > Is it really necessary to advise your belayer that you..........   are putting a runner on. 

Maybe if out of sight and it can be very useful to say which rope it's on anyway.

Agree with all you say. All that is required is long slow hard pulls onto the second (*not* "tugs" of slack rope that might not be transmitted down to the second), more or less with the same force as though the leader was giving the second a very tight rope. That signal (of, say, three pulls) then means "I'm safe"; "you're on belay"; "climb when you're ready" all rolled into one, and the second's reply of "climbing" is also redundant. This also works when the leader realises he has run out of rope and wants the second man to start simul-climbing (when he has judged that there are adequate runners between the two of them).

I've also noticed sports climbers verbally announcing that they are clipping on every bolt, presumably to ensure that they are not "short roped" but that seems to be a little OTT and it would perhaps be more useful to have a word with the second about this.

But not when they are clawing up near vertical heather with hideous rope drag.........

We bought some cheap radios from amazon. About £20 for two. Much better than shouting, 15 channels to choose so doubtful there'll be too much radio traffic.

Brilliant on long climbs and really made the rescue of a young lady who'd broken both her legs in Belgium last year much easier.

Wouldn't do a long climb without them now.

P.s We didn't say "The eagle has landed"!

Once followed a couple having a 'gritted teeth' row on two way radios until she 'accidentally' dropped it off the second pitch.

Mobile phones seem a good idea if you're out of sight and hearing range and as long as there is coverage.

That's a bloody stupid thing to shout.

Forgot about 'That's me'. A very useful call IMO, as the leader will usually want to make sure they've taken in the slack, and the rope hasn't simply caught round an edge and is creating drag. Also useful when using two ropes ("That's me on orange") so the leader knows they've still got to take in slack on the other rope.

'Taking in' I've always thought of as an entirely pointless call (if the leader has shouted safe the second will be expecting them to do this anyway).

I climb with a Czech friend who used to mix languages

"Give me sec" 

I imagine one would have to adapt a totally different approach for certain types of Scottish climbing. In similar vein, I not sure how well the normal type of climbing harness would work with the traditional male garment (i.e. kilt) worn in those parts.

I'm on for my record amount of dislikes here. Keep em coming, I can take it  

Anyway, I'm a "liker". I agree with what you said (even if the language was a bit strong). This excessive use of "calls" seems to be a peculiarly British climbing problem. I suppose that might be because other countries tend to have larger crags and mountains and the system of shouting just doesn't work because of distances between climbers and wind etc

In reply to GridNorth:

Similar to you on sea cliffs where I know there is a good stake etc, but over top and out of hearing. I often tell second to wait one minute after rope goes taut (rope will have been clipped through krab on sling on stake) , and start climbing once slack taken up. Its not serious if second starts climbing as I move back from stake towards edge (essentially direct belay for a short time before I quickly tie back to harness and belay normally). 

With my partners.... Sometimes it's a short route and you can talk, in which case it's: "cool, I'm safe, go for it." Sometimes you can hear each other with a good shout, in which case it's utter silence until: "safe!" and then "climb when you're ready!" But, as a back up, I tell my partners "three tugs if we can't hear each other". And if it's a novice, I tell them: "if all the rope goes out, count to 60 and then go. If the rope keeps being taken in you're on belay, so don't worry." There's nothing worse than being a novice, sitting on a ledge, wondering whether you have stay put and continue to freeze your ass off, or whether you're allowed to go, thinking all the time that you're going to make a mistake and die...

I don't fancy carrying a walkie talkie, simply because it's yet another thing to carry... whilst the whistle is a bit too awful a sound to contemplate...

I assure you it will be a rare encounter - french trad climbers are few and far between.

As for snoops reaction - is this the climber's equivalent of road-rage ? Prob another facet of UK's overcrowding. There's inevitably the occasional loudmouth at the crag but usually I'm happy to have some company; maybe because local crags in SW France are so quiet.

There's also the fact that it makes you look just a little bit of a knob.

Wow, and I thought Americans had too many signals!

By the way,  "below!" would be totally confounding in the US---no one would know what it meant.  Rock! is the US call---no matter what is actually coming down.

This is what I do with regular partners.  I think that single-syllable single words that don't sound alike are best.  (If the party knows what the words are, it is less important if they sound like a signal the party isn't using.

Leader: Off!  (Short for "off belay."  "Safe" would be just as good, although I don't like the possibly erroneous implication.  Some of the people I've climbed with have no business shouting "safe" under any circumstances...)  

Leader takes up rope...second shouts Me!  (Short for "that's me."  Useful so that the leader knows the rope isn't stuck somewhere.)

Leader threads belay gadget, shouts Climb!  Second climbs.  No need to indicate it, the leader can tell by the rope motions, and no need for the leader to respond, the second can tell whether or not the rope is being taken in.

Leader gets distracted and fails to take up the rope...second shouts Rope! (short for "up rope.")  In the US, this now known as "shithouse belaying," or in more polite society, if there is any left, "multitasking."

Second needs to step down (fuhgettaboutit if the leader is belaying with a plaquette on the anchor): Slack!

At the end of the day it's just whatever works for you isn't it. For some reason I think a few words are easier to discern (e.g. 'Climb when ready' or 'That's me') on a wild day than just the one which may come over as just a generic shout. I guess it also depends how good you are at shouting!

My reaction was perhaps missing its little winky face to let people know explicitly that I might have been taking the piss a bit.  Big groups shouting all day is annoying but live and let live and all that. I could always avoid road side honey pot crags like tremadog of course. 

Instagram can still f*ck right off tho  

It is indeed a problem here. But I was in red rocks recently and those canyons don't half echo. Its busy, very busy.  And yanks shout like nobody else. Add in a bit of whooping and you have quite an experience in terms of audible overload. Even after a 2 hour walk-in. Great place still of course. 

Safe is not just as good, it is far preferable in my opinion (and is, I think, almost universally used in the UK), "off belay" being very much a US thing.  As I said earlier, "belay" is bad because it has two separate meanings and it is not clear whether "off belay" means: (1) "I have taken you off the plate",  (2) "You can now take me off the plate",  (3) "I have dismantled my belay",  or (4) You can now dismantle your belay".  It seems the US convention is in fact option (2) if it is an alternative to "safe". (1) is equivalent to "take in", (3) to "climbing" and (4) to "climb when ready".  In other words it could mean virtually anything!

Of course if both climbers agree and manage to remember what they have agreed then it works ok...........

I have always done the following (with names of person being called if a busy crag)

Leader when at top and anchored - "Safe"

Belayer, having released rope - "Off Belay"

Belayer when rope goes tight - "That's me" (rope colour optional if 2 seconders)

Leader, after putting second on belay - "Climb when ready"

Rope tugs if pitch is long or wind carries voice away

So that is my (1) above and not, apparently the usual American usage.  If had led a pitch and heard that, from my second I would be worried that they had dismantled the belay and we're ready to climb. I think "take in" is much better.

In my experience those are the standard calls in the UK. 'Off belay' doesn't imply the second is ready to climb, though I would certainly be worried to hear it if I wasn't yet safe! 'Take in' to me implies that the second is either climbing or about to do so, and is letting the leader know there's excess slack between them. 

The mark of a great UKC post is hundreds of button clicks, about 1:3 like:dislike 

66 and counting  

Wondering if it was the overly strong and aggressive language, general hate for groups of cretins shouting at the crag or, as is most probable, a tiny portion of the instatwat massive have swooped in to shoot me down. 

I can only assume the 25 likes were for the use of Cock Womble. 

One thing I am missing here, which I find a bit weird, is a discussion of the "language of the rope", which makes most of these calls redundant. When seconding, I always found belaying a serious but agonisingly tedious duty. So I always watched/felt every slightest movement of the rope, up or down, which would give me a pretty good idea of what the leader was (probably) doing, putting on a runner etc. (I am talking here mainly about trad climbing, where the leader is very often out of sight, rather than sport climbing where the leader is usually in sight and you know what he/she is doing.) Isn't this - the rope management - the most important communication with the leader, not just when he is belaying, but all the time? I'd always watch the rope inch out this way, come back, twitch etc. And usually, without any shouting, you'd realise he/she was building a belay, so you'd would be on your toes to zoom out rope as fast as possible. Once I had judged that the leader was probably safe, I would immediately start dismantling my belay, but keeping one good piece in - knowing that there were maybe six or ten good pieces of gear between me and the leader. My aim was always to start climbing as soon as possible after the rope(s) came tight at my waist. I was born impatient and I have never (I mean never) wanted to stay on a belay stance (as we call it in the UK; "station" in the US) for one split second longer than necessary. And then when I started climbing and the rope was being taken in normally and I'd know that my judgment was correct. When it wasn't, I would immediately slam gear back in as fast as you could.

Another thing  I never did was take my leader "off belay" until the moment I was about to climb, even though I was no longer tied on/belayed to the rock. As the rope was being taken in, or before, I would have the screw gate(s) undone on my belay carabiner(s), so that I could rip the belay device off the instant before I started climbing.

Nicely put, and not sure why you got a dislike for it. I said above that climbers learn to interpret the position of their partner from the way the rope is moving. You just get a feel for it over time, and nothing for a long time followed by suddenly the rope going really quickly is a tell-tale sign of the leader having made a belay and you haven't heard them shout 'safe'.

More likely because they simply disagreed with you about then use of climbing calls and you told them to f*** right off.

The second would have taken the leader off belay device because the leader was safe, they wouldn't climb until they heard climb when ready from the leader. If you agree the calls it has no misunderstanding as you state. But if you agree beforehand then your way works too. The key is undertsnding the sequence of calls, not what the calls are

Yes, a good approach might be to agree a chronological sequence of four calls as randomly chosen words beginning with A, B, C and D. There would be no chance of forgetting which is which or of acting on other climbers' calls with possibly tragic consequences.

I had you down as a function over form type.

I agree with all of that, although I generally relinquish control of the rope once having heard 'taking in', which is, of course, the first and only call a leader needs to make having reached the stance and secured a belay.  I tend to ignore anything else they might say apart from 'I might need quite a bit of slack because the belay's miles back..."

Isn't there a whistle code for lowering and hoisting on ropes used by the Mountain Rescue, or did I imagine that? 

There can be a significant delay between "safe" and "taking in" (backing up belay, putting on clothing etc) during which the second could be getting organised to climb (partly dismantling belay, taking off clothing etc.) Over many pitches the time saved could be considerable.

You look up just in time to have a rock smash you in the teeth.

Confirm your calls and backup before you start climbing. Not needed with a regular partner, but someone new...

That's fair, although I'd argue that if the leader is still backing up the belay they aren't really safe.  I generally find I have time to put my boots on and partially dismantle the belay while the ropes are being taken in.

I guess my main objection is the use of the word 'safe' by leaders who are anything but.  'Safe' does not mean 'I've reached the stance/top', which is how I increasingly see it being used.  People fall off stances.  I've done it myself. 

Best interpreted as "safe enough for you to take be off the plate". I often shout "safe" before I'm actually attached to an anchor if at the top of the crag or on a comfy ledge

Which is up to you.  And if we were climbing together I'd give you a couple of metres of slack and keep you on belay while I started to sort myself out...