UKC

After ten days climbing in Cornwall I am absolutely loving it, and feeling pretty confident at HS/VS. My partner has also led a couple of HS pitches pretty comfortably, and we now have our eye on Right Angle (HS 4b) (maybe after a few more VS's, such as South Face Direct (VS 4c), which everyone says is excellent).

From what I gather, the second pitch of Right Angle is far more serious for the second, but I'm wondering if it's possible, with double ropes, to keep a couple of pieces in at the top of the downclimb to essentially keep the second on top-rope on one of the ropes. Whoever seconds the third pitch would then have to traverse back across to retrieve the gear, but if I'm visualizing the situation correctly, she would be reasonably protected on the traverse by that same rope — now coming from the left, in opposition to the rope on the right-hand side. Does this make sense? If so, one of us will get an extra pitch out of it!

Of course, if all that is too much faff and complication, I suppose I could have my partner lead the second pitch, leaving the spicy follow for me. But just how spicy is it? I've seen conflicting comments about the traverse to the second belay (after the downclimb), but it looks like a place where the second could potentially fall into the sea.

I did it with my son who was 11 at the time. I left some gear in the first belay and back roped him from memory. 
 

Once we topped out we went back to the beginning and I did the first pitch again to get the gear back. 
 

if your mate can lead HS just get them to lead the second pitch and you second it. 
 

it’s easy, just atmospheric, especially on a rising tide with an onshore wind....

have fun

you could belay at the downclimb, and let her lead that bit? or just have her lead that pitch.

I've never done the down climb due to tides (I did go down i about 5m to check sea levels) we did the traverse - which is soft at VS IMHO. I went down the face on the left, easier than the crack which was damp)

in your scheme if you had to do the traverse back, there would be a bit of swing potential to say the least (unless one places gear when going out left in the traverse), and when coning back into the corner they would be protected from above but a slip would be exciting swing

Yes this is possible, I did this a couple of years back as the down climb is very involved.  I left 2 bomber pieces in the break before the down climb for the second, I then led the 3rd pitch and traversed in to get the gear back when level with it.  

Key point if you do this is to make sure they are bomber as a gear failure and fall near the crux will end up with the second taking an unpleasant swim.  

Your suggestion sounds like a ballache and faff, to be honest.

I'd have the most proficient/confident person seconding pitch 2.

Either that, or follow rurp's suggestion of repeating pitch 1 at the end to retrieve the gear.

As I remember it (having both led & followed P2) the spice comes from the potential of a wave splashing the traverse across to the belay.

I'd had many good days being very comfortable on Cornish VS when I did this climb. The downclimb is harder and more serious than going straight across and potentially terrifying for a second without a backrope. The grades are the wrong way round in my view with modern pro. If the second is inexperienced some of the traversing is airy as well, so maybe better then to abseil into the corner and just climb that.

As long as your partner can place gear properly they are basically on a top rope for the downclimb so get them to lead it and place protection for you.  If you're comfortable leading VS the down climb should be fine but it will feel exposed. 

I've never bothered with the downclimb - just traverse straight across. If your second is lacking in confidence (the traverse is probably the technical crux) just climb a few metres up the last pitch and place a good runner on one of your ropes and they'll have a rope above them. The attached photo is of my son (8years ago) just approaching the traverse, the blue rope goes up to a high runner in the final pitch.

Enjoy, it's a great route.

Rough seas or considerable swell - right decision.

Calm seas with little swell - you've missed out, great little stance just above the wet.

Definitely, I've done it twice, both straight across because of the sea and down to the stance. That was on a magical day, blue skies, grey seal swimming in and out of the corner just below the stance, peregrines wheeling around above.

I led this recently with a second who was not overly confident on the downclimb. I managed to put 18 bits of gear in pitch 2, so they were never run out while downclimbing.

The only hard bit of the downclimb is the very bottom bit of the crack, the part below the person in the photo Mark uploaded. The bottom traverse is then safe, as you're below the belayer. The middle traverse, between the person in Mark's photo and the second belay, looked desperate, and unprotected. 

If I’m guiding it I’ll leave a couple of good pieces at the top of the down climb and leave a rope in them to back rope my second over to the lowest stance - once they’re safely on the belay (using the other rope!) we’ll untie and pull that end back through. 

Then as I lead the corner pitch I’ll nip back across the high-tide variation, pick up the gear, reverse back and carry on up the corner. Takes 5 mins, probably a 4c move each way, and needs some smallish gear - much lower consequence then the second falling off the down climb though!

Hi bud. Do u have the Rockfax West Country Climbs Guide? It's detailed on p.192.

As you will see on the topo there is an alternative second pitch which continues the traverse all the way along until it reaches roughly a third of the way up pitch 3. It is possible to then down climb the start of pitch 3 to the usual belay ledge at the end of the original pitch 2. Indeed this is what I did in 2018 (albeit probably because my partner leading pitch 2 went too far past the normal descent and simply carried on further on the alternative route as all the gear was already placed and would have been a bit of a faff).

Anyway my point is that when I seconded pitch 2 via this alternative method all the gear was bomber (especially on the down climb of the start of pitch 3). Therefore if you are concerned about adequately protecting the second then this is definitely a safe option, even as a last resort.

Hi Jay, so when you pull the rope at the second belay, does it not get in the sea? (By the way, I think we met you at Roche Rock on Saturday — I’m the American you got a stuck hex out for.) 

Thanks for the tips, everyone! 

Hi Alex,

Yep, the end of that rope does get wet...  not found a way to avoid that yet! Better than the ends of both ropes + the second getting wet I suppose though?!

Ah yes, that was me - good to put a name to a face!
Did you lose a karabiner ? I found one at the top with my rigging ropes... can only assume it’s yours. If so drop me a line and I’ll get it back to you. 
 

Jay

I agree but why bother. The climbing missed, down to the bottom of pitch 3, is hardly stellar. 

I didn't fancy the main downclimb seconding onsight and my partner wouldn't second the downclimb and didn't fancy the traverse, so had belayed at the top of the downclimb. I  led the traverse after going down and back up the downclimb (to suss it out). I climbed up and left up pitch 3 for a bit to a small belay in the main corner to better protect the traverse. The traverse looked bolder than it turned out: it was reasonably well protected from memory but I can't remember what I placed and I do carry RPs and microcams.

If the sea is highish the second could easily end up in it with rope stretch. You cant keep them on a tight rope as they wouldn't be able to move. We had below mid tide conditions and a fairly friendly sea but the bottom of the downclimb was wet from a bit of spray. The route with the downclimb absolutely needs a second who is comfortable on wet cornish VS and can downclimb ( hardly anyone practices downclimbing these days without a rope above them).

The benefit of jay's method is its safe and you get your cake and eat it (to climb both pitches). I didn't think any move on the traverse was quite 4c and it was on dry clean rock, unlike the downclimb.

It's a bit of a faff but when I did it the second down-climbed leaving the gear in place then I climbed back to the gear and removed it before continuing the rest.

I am always interested to follow "Right Angle" threads as I have had a wide range of experiences on it and keen to see what others have to say. I first did it some twenty years ago with my young son. It was shorts and t-shirt weather, the climb was busy, so we were able to follow the most popular line without any issues. Within the last 7 or 8 years, I must have done it 4 or 5 times and each occasion has been emotional. On the first of those I tried to lead down the chimney, it was probably too early in the day and still damp. I fell down the chimney, ending below the belay ledge and had to climb back up to it. The next 3 or 4 times, I have tried a number of lines down before the chimney, effectively on a top rope as leader. Getting across to the belay ledge is seriously hard, I am convinced something has changed / fallen off, an experienced contributor to a thread some years back agreed. I have only managed it on a sort of pendulum, having only clipped one of a pair of half ropes on the way down, with the other secured at the top. We have lately taken some old nuts and a krab and sacrificed them to protect the "seconds". On my last attempt, our last man down who climbs in the lower "E's", struggled to get across and thought it absurd at HS. This year, a couple of pals who are also comfortable in the lower E's also described the move across as nails, although done without a "top rope". I suspect a reasonable line currently is to continue down below the belay ledge, move across right and climb back up to it, which is what I did unplanned last time having fallen off again!

   As for having your partner lead the 2nd pitch, it is not an obvious line and I would only consider it with twin ropes, allowing a pendulum if required as described. Having reached the belay ledge, arranging very small wires for the anchors is not easy. There is an argument if confident for setting off up the last pitch for 10ft or so and dropping a good nut in before climbing back down to the ledge. It is a fantastically atmospheric location, especially on a fine day with no swell and a turquoise sea lapping below. It is not a place to be on a rising tide with any swell running and damp rock. Other things to consider include allowing for the sun to come round and dry it off and being aware that communication can be difficult (we take radios just for this route).

   Apologies if I have given too much away, but I do think it is a route that requires a grade or two in hand, especially on first acquaintance. I noted with interest that on the climb's Fiftieth Anniversary event, most if not all traversed directly across to the 3rd pitch, avoiding the downclimb.

Right angle is best enjoyed on an afternoon low giving the hardest bit of the down climb (the last few moves) time to dry out. The belay ledge is fairly small and exposed so even at low a rough sea will make this dangerous (2nd got hit by a wave the first time we did it). The atmosphereis at the bottom is fantastic and should not be missed and is part of the adventure, traversing across higher is a variations that detract from doing the route properly!!

Wait for good conditions and you will have a great time.

Ps The first pitch is not given a tech grade in some guides but should not be underestimated and involves some airy traversing. This would not be a quick operation to lead and reverse to get gear back.

Ps2 To echo Mike's comments above when I did it for the 2nd time last year, seconding the down pitch this time I thought the last moves to the belay were pretty hard and I usually lead a few grades harder! 

Good point about two ropes. I should have mentioned we nearly always use a single 60m half rope doubled up so used as two (and often take intermediate belays, especially on big traverses). We climbed it a couple of years ago now and as I said, I thought the crack was tough compared to the traverse.

I was just answering the OP's concerns about the competence of the second and keeping things safe. I admit it would involve down-climbing a bit of the bottom of pitch 3 which could be perceived to perhaps spoil things a bit but like I said before is it really worth sacrificing serious injury or worse simply to avoid re-climbing 10 feet of a route that length if the second climber really isn't confident and/or competent at the grade? Just another option to have in mind.

We had to do the traverse line into the corner instead of the down climb due to a slow party in front of us and the rising tide. 

A word of warning.  The tidal swell hits the back wall and then cascades over the climb. As we were topping out of the final corner wave spray almost reached the top!

Great climb.