UKC

Savage Vdiffs

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 Paul Sagar 29 Sep 2020

Getting back into climbing after some enforced downtime due to nearly snapping my foot off in May. As part of trad recovery, I've decided to set out on a longterm goal of ticking the entire original Classic Rock ticklist.

To that end my partner and I did the Direct Route on  this weekend. Which was absolutely savage at the grade!

I don't want to get into a discussion of whether it is "really" VDiff (IMO it isn't, but whatever). I'm more interested in what other VDiff's people have come across that have taken them by surprise. Especially if any of the are on the original Classic Rock list!

 deepstar 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Lands End Long Climb!

 Adam Peel 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Hi Paul, glad you're getting back into it. Snapped my achilles last year so I know how it feels to be nervous about an injury and rusty as well. I thought that route was horribly polished (but it's rare I get on anything other than grit) and the gear on p1 was very unhelpful, felt more like Severe.

I think some of the lower grades are tricky because it doesn't feel like climbing, they're not prescribed moves and you can't really learn the steps to the dance. In some cases there's just no way of making it look good, and these moves where you have to unleash the Derp rarely feel secure.

Honourable mention for Eckhard's Chimney at Stanage High Neb. Did it when I was starting out and made a meal of it. My second, who was leading HS at the time agreed that it was bloody awful.

Beware the low grades. Starts to feel more like climbing at Severe IMO, less polish too!

 finc00 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I thought Cioch Nose (VD) was pretty stiff for Vdiff, however I would disagree with the SMCs grade of Sev 4a, simply because its Vdiff! (even though theres probably one or two 4a moves on it)

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 Adam Peel 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Thinking back the chimney (and emergence from said chimney) at the top of Pulpit Route at Milestone is a bit mind-bending for a VDiff lead as well. Must just be the Milestone, and changing fashions (not a fan of chimneys).

Post edited at 13:36
 oliwarlow 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

It was not a surprise, but not far from Milestone you have great gully on Craig Yr Ysfa

The other classic rock VD that might cause problems would be Crypt route - depending on your waistline.

I think the Cuillin gets VD - which of course if far harder than the technical climbing would suggest

Post edited at 13:37
OP Paul Sagar 29 Sep 2020
In reply to oliwarlow:

Yeah the Cuillin traverse is alpinism, really, and 'Vdiff' doesn't do the seriousness justice...he says, having not yet actually done it.

 Martin Bagshaw 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Surely the most 'savage' vdiffs are unprotected gritstone chimneys. Just the sort of thing I wouldn't touch with a barge pole if coming back from a bad injury. Nevertheless, that one by the unconquerables on Stanage springs to mind.

Squareface was pretty good, probably hard for the grade. Long way away though.

 Garethza 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Little Chamonix is a bit of a sandbag for the grade.. i can imagine a VD leader having a bit of an epic on the weird traverse! Observatory Ridge is another that is tricky for the grade however its more of an alpine grade due to the length rather than the difficulty i'd imagine. Vdiffs were also all climbed originally in big boots so that might make it even more savage depending on the route you are doing!

6
 PaulJepson 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Labyrinth (VS 4b), if given VDif is a total sandbag. I know it's VS on here but I wasn't sure if that was exclusively reserved for the direct finish. We did the original standard version and it was definitely worthy of VS 4b. I was way more gripped on it than I was on South Ridge Direct (VS 5a), which I'd done the day before (and I love a grovel). 

It's Classic Rock as well, so enjoy!

Post edited at 14:57
In reply to Paul Sagar:

If you want a savage VDiff that's in Classic Rock, then you want this Great Gully (S).

Just remember you wanted to do this when you're shivering with the memory.

T.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

The Great Cave Pitch on Great Gully (S) is certainly one that makes an impression for the grade, not least because it just feels so very, very unlikely. We did it at night, in the middle of winter (albeit in summer conditions), and I remember getting to the back of the cave and thinking to myself "where next?!" only to turn around and see that huge chockstone back out at the top of the cave. I've done E5s with more likely looking lines! I've included a pic below, which hopefully does its unlikely nature some justice!

Whilst it's not in Classic Rock, Chasm Route (VD) on Glyder Fach is a beauty. The 'vertical vice' crux pitch is definitely one that lives long in the memory...

Post edited at 15:15

 Michael Gordon 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

This surely fits the bill:

Savage Slit (Summer) (S)

It's v-diff in Classic Rock!

1
 Blue Straggler 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Cheating totally by throwing in a Severe....Marble Tower Flake at Stanage. I think the most ridiculously bold "starting move" I've done on mild single pitch gritstone. And I was doing the VS route next to it (shared start). Maybe a brave leap across a gap (with an ever so slightly technical landing) doesn't count as "savage" though. 

 GrahamD 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Garethza:

> Little Chamonix is a bit of a sandbag for the grade.. i can imagine a VD leader having a bit of an epic on the weird traverse! 

It might be top end of the grade, but surely no one thinks little cham is a sandbag ?

 Sean Kelly 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

2 routes come to mind  both at Stanage. Helfensteins Struggle and Verandah Buttress (5b). Probably regraded by now I imagine?

Post edited at 18:03
 tehmarks 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> To that end my partner and I did the Direct Route on  this weekend. Which was absolutely savage at the grade!

I did it a few weeks ago on a low-psych day and had an absolute 'mare. Thought the first pitch was mental at the grade, and I didn't even lead it. The second pitch is fun though - that hand traverse is mega!

Little Chamonix was my first ever multipitch/multipitch lead, with an equally stupid non-leading second, and I could envisage that being 'interesting' for an unsuspecting VD leader too. The step across from the sloping block is totally committing, and if you're a properly inexperienced punter like we were, there's great scope for terrifying gear-plucking rope drag problems. I barely made it onto the saddle with rope drag, and pulled my gear on the arete out in doing so. Silly, silly mistake; lesson well and truly learnt!

Edit: but I don't think it's a sandbag at VD.

Post edited at 18:35
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 SebCa 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Parchment Passage on Dinas Cromlech is up there for me...

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/dinas_cromlech-4/parchment_passage...

 TobyA 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Funny - long time since I did it but I just remember it being rather normal but ridiculously polished mountain Vdiff. Can it really be that exposed when its on basically a roadside lump at the bottom of a mountain? I remember the descent being shite though!

I find it's normally some no star, minor and visually unappealing grit vdiffs that end up feeling actually hard. When you are using offwidth techniques like chicken wings or stacked fists whilst 10 ft up and desperately trying to slither upwards for another 10 foot to the top, that you start thinking WTF - vdiff?

I've soloed a lot of the routes up to Severe, and the odd HS at Burbage North, but I noticed a few down the far end I hadn't ticked yet and Sunday afternoon was so nice that I popped up for an hour or so before sunset. One of the ones I did was Hollybush Gully (VD) - it's literally only a few metres high and quite ridiculously hard work for such a short climb. There are others like that out there, but that's the one that comes to mind from recent bumblings.

 Michael Hood 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

That chimney's quite a tussle, you're never sure you're the right way round, or maybe that should be you're always sure you're the wrong way round 😁. We have lost the art of VDiff chimneying - go and do Slingsby's Chimney on Scafell, used to only be HD - make sure you're wearing a rucsac to maximise the "enjoyment".

Post edited at 19:32
 David Jones 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Arch Gully, Ogwen, is pretty serious at VD

 Arcturus 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Tennis Shoe (ldwal) back in the day was Vdiff. Hard Severe now . How times have changed 

In reply to SebCa:

Now there's a route with memories.  Put a runner in near the top of the first pitch, gave it a tug to make sure it was properly in and it flicked out and smashed one of the lenses in my specs.  Finishing the route was fun, given that I'm pretty short sighted, my specs were knackered (frame wonky as well as one lens gone) and one of my eyes was streaming with tears and couldn't see anything when I opened it..

While England were losing to Argentina and the hand of God goal, I was being ferried between hospitals in Shrewsbury to check if there was glass embedded in my eye.

After that, I made a point of only climbing wearing glasses with plastic lenses.  Despite adding my own individual difficulties to the climb, or possibly because I did, I don't recall the route as being too bad.

T.

 d_b 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Sean Kelly:

When I destroyed my self respect on helfensteins struggle it was still graded diff! Iirc at the same time the bmc guide gave the marmoset diff 5a.

I agree with deepstar for my pick btw. The lands end long climb is vicious at vd.

Post edited at 20:02
 Trangia 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I've always thought the final crack pitch of Milestone Buttress is tough for the grade, as is the final crack pitch on Flying Buttress.

Another sandbag V Diff is the Devil's Kitchen, always greasy, dark, cold and dripping wet

I fully agree with the comments on the Great Cave Pitch of Great Gully.

Another desperately under graded climb is the TD Gap on the Cuillin Ridge. Well polished and much harder than V Diff, particularly if you are wearing a rucksack.

The Lands End Long Climb jump is scary for a V Diff

 Red Rover 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Arcturus:

Could that be due to polish?

In reply to Paul Sagar:

I thought agags groove was stiff for vdiff, particularly the top of the third pitch, although I might have gone a bit off route.

 rogerwebb 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Clachaig Gully (vdiff according to the first ascentionists) 520m of entertainment. The next day you could do North Face route on the Buchaille and actually enjoy yourself.

Glad to hear you are getting better. 

 C Witter 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Lover's Leap Chimney (VD 4b) and Gimmer Chimney (VD) spring to mind! I remember being quite scared, in the rain, on the latter, as a novice, thinking myself more competent than I was and having taking my girlfriend out for a "pleasant climb"...

The Ivy Chimney at the top of Pulpit Route on Milestone Buttress is a definite experience! Bizarre, awkward and clumsy. I also seem to remember feeling nervy running together the long slab of Central ArĂȘte (VD), because the rock felt very snappy and the gear very poor - though it may have just been me feeling a bit tired. If you want a real Ogwen sandbag as a taller person, though, then you need to try Monolith Crack (HS) - though it gets a nominal HS.

Lliwedd is also very atomospheric and adventurous for VDiff-level climbing!

Some people seem to think Bowfell Buttress (HS 4b) is hard for the VDiff that it definitely is... Pfff... Langdale guidebook writer must have gone soft

 Street 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Adam Peel:

I've got a cracking photo of the missus topping out of the chimney on Pulpit Route. Strangely, I think that was the last time she climbed with me..

 Arcturus 29 Sep 2020
In reply to C Witter:

Ahh Lliwedd my favourite mountain rock climb in the pouring rain. Good call. Person who graded Bowfell Buttress must be same as did Tennis Shoe ☺️

IIn reply to GrahamD:

The idea of Little Chamonix as a 'sandbag' is such a joke. It's just so friendly, interesting, and enjoyable at its grade, ending with that final supreme ladder of jugs.

1
In reply to Trangia:

> I've always thought the final crack pitch of Milestone Buttress is tough for the grade, as is the final crack pitch on Flying Buttress.

Quite. But fair within the old-fashioned meaningful Ogwen grading system.

> Another sandbag V Diff is the Devil's Kitchen, always greasy, dark, cold and dripping wet

With this I absolutely agree with you. It's ludicrous at V. Diff, it's just so serious. At least Hard Severe imho.

> I fully agree with the comments on the Great Cave Pitch of Great Gully.

> Another desperately under graded climb is the TD Gap on the Cuillin Ridge. Well polished and much harder than V Diff, particularly if you are wearing a rucksack.

Another ludicrously undergraded one at V Diff. You almost have to wonder at the inferiority complex enthusiasts throughout its history must have had to give it that. The thing is it's not even hard to grade. It's basically Hard Severe, and must have been throughout its history.

> The Lands End Long Climb jump is scary for a V Diffs.

Yes. Probably best left at the grade with a comment in the intro that 'some things on it may be found hard for the grade.'

 Cornish boy 29 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Kirkus's Climb (VD)

The chimney on Pitch 1 of this route is both brutal and bold. I found it harder than Ivy Chimney (Pulpit Route) and also the mega polished chimney on the final pitch of Direct Route on Milestone Buttress. 

The next 3 pitches were challenging too and pretty thin on gear for the most part. 

It’s a VDiff in the ‘Scrambles & Easy Climbs in Snowdonia’ guidebook, despite being graded Severe on the UKC logbook. 

Either way, we climbed it recently and both found it savage! 

Post edited at 23:23
 veteye 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> I

> The idea of Little Chamonix as a 'sandbag' is such a joke. It's just so friendly, interesting, and enjoyable at its grade, ending with that final supreme ladder of jugs.

One of my favourite things, is to sit, a cheval, on the belay below the last pitch of Little Chamonix, bathed in sunshine, looking up Derwent water towards Skiddaw.

 veteye 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Trangia:

> I've always thought the final crack pitch of Milestone Buttress is tough for the grade, as is the final crack pitch on Flying Buttress.

I must have forgotten, as I don't remember having too much grade concern, but it's a while since I've done it. We did it in Winter, and were fairly cold. I was fairly peeved as the Paul Williams guidebook dropped out of my breast pocket, higher up, and into a crack further down. Since it was coming dark, and we had to head back home, we didn't abseil to get it, sadly. No-one owned up to retrieving it..

 cathsullivan 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Also found Milestone Buttress very hard for the grade, although we did it on an extremely hot day last July.  Even though we were in the shade it was boiling which made everything extra slippery.

The only other well known route that I can think of that particularly made me think 'vdiff my arse' is Land's End Long Climb, but many of the bits that are not really VDiff are avoidable, I think.  Oh, and the bottom of Africa Rib on Craig y Clipiau (although again, you can go around that and I suspect many do).

I think Little Chamonix is top end but it's probably still VDiff.  I actually think one of the trickiest bits now is the first pitch as it's getting polished and is often a bit greasy and the gear never seems as good to me on that bit.  And the slide off the block is better for the leader really because if you put a big sling round the block you can slide off it with the rope more or less above you.

Regarding some of the other comments about how an inexperienced (or incompetent) leader might struggle on routes like Little Chamonix, I agree.  Lower grade routes are often more wandering and less steep and that can make the rope work quite challenging - and that ought to be included in the grading. But, while it might be true that we're particularly likely to find inexperienced leaders on easier routes, surely they need to be graded on the assumption that the people on them are competent?  Routes in the lower grades are not automatically suitable for beginners (seconding or leading) and we need to remember that. A route that is in the lower grades but needs a competent leader who can protect the whole party is not automatically under-graded. 

In reply to rogerwebb:

> Clachaig Gully (vdiff according to the first ascentionists) 520m of entertainment. The next day you could do North Face route on the Buchaille and actually enjoy yourself.

Always wanted to do the Clachaig, despite the fact it's clearly going to be horrendous...

 Offwidth 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

It's nothing like horrendous. I included the photos in my profile years ago to prove the point. Grade wise it's tough for severe (more due to boldness) when drier than average. The old start fell down about 25 years ago so you do need a more modern guidebook.

In reply to Offwidth:

I suspect people's opinion on what horrendous entails differs quite significantly, but my remark was meant as tongue in cheek.

That said, I'm still not sure it's going to be to everyone's tastes!

 John Gresty 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Clachaigh Gully followed by a traverse of Aonach Eagach is a great day out. But then I did seem to be attracted by gully climbs. 

What does 'savage' mean ?  undergraded, dirty, unprotected, chimney, gully, adventurous, anything someone has struggled on.

A lot of routes mentioned in this post just seem to standard V. Diffs.

John Gresty

 Jamie Wakeham 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Little Chamonix is correctly VDiff, and I don't even think it's a particularly tough one - I think quite a bit of the challenge comes from the somewhat unbelievable situations which can make you wonder if you're off route.  I agree that P1 is actually the hardest and most serious pitch, especially if not bone dry.  The step across in P3 is fine (as long as your legs reach!) but it looks so unlikely that you can be plagued by fear that you're lost and getting yourself into a world of trouble.  Equally, P4 is straightforward jug hauling, but if you didn't expect to be doing something like that you can be quite convinced that you must be off route...

LELC, on the other hand, simply isn't a VDiff.  Not if you actually follow the line and do all the pitches.  Even skipping the final pitch, I think it's fair at Severe.  Yes, you can bypass some of the trickier bits, but that doesn't mean they're any easier!

 Michael Gordon 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Another ludicrously undergraded one at V Diff. You almost have to wonder at the inferiority complex enthusiasts throughout its history must have had to give it that. > 

It's just a tough v-diff! (TD Gap)

Put a boot in the crack and step up (granted could be awkward in rock shoes or trainers, not sure, haven't done it like that). Can't be that bad if we did it carrying our kit for 2 days... It's a strange one when those with a different opinion get labelled as having an inferiority complex

 rogerwebb 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

> It's nothing like horrendous.

Depends on the midges... 

 Rog Wilko 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Already been mentioned but Gimmer Chimney (VD) was one of the first which came to my mind. I notice my logbook comment includes "first two pitches both have 4a moves above ledges". Falling on to a ledge on a multipitch can be a serious matter.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Only got three pitches in to Land End Long Climb and sacked it off on the basis I was worried about the rest of it for my second. Pitch 2, whilst awesome was harder than any S 4a I’d gone up with my partner previously. 

 Michael Hood 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

The Yellow Slab at 4b on Overlapping Ridge Route (First Pinnacle Rib) (D) (or is it the other one - Second Pinnacle Rib) is a bit tough for D (some guidebooks give them VD) but easily avoided.

Post edited at 13:25
OP Paul Sagar 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

On Tennis Shoe being upgraded to HS...

...I did the stupidly dangerous solo of the direct start last year, but discounting that I found all the regular pitches very steady. Indeed, I didn't remember them as being any harder than any pitch of Faith (VD), which we climbed on Sunday (wanted to get on Hope for the Classic Rock tick but it was busy!)

Anyone know why Tennis Shoe got upgraded but others didn't? Although I'm not much of a judge at the moment (memories from when I was fit and bold enough to basically solo HVS vs. now when my foot doesn't really work properly and slabs are painful), I don't remember Tennis Shoe being any harder than Faith...

In reply to Cornish boy:

The description from Rockfax in the UKC logbook seems to be for Kirkus Direct, not Kirkus' Climb, which is definitely sustained S 4a. I don't have the rockfax to check if its an error in the book or in the logbook but the line that's described is definitely the direct route from the CC guide.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Probably just the top pitch which is a bit harder than the rest of the route. I'd agree that the rest is probably only severe, and fairly soft at that.

 joem 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I recently re-climbed Church Window (S 4a) at Sennen and was reminded just how bloody exciting it is wouldn't really be out of place at hs think i fell off it when I first tried it. 

 Phil Lyon 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

We did Milestone Buttress at the weekend too. I thought it was a good VDiff until the chimney pitch. To me even a Diff chimney can feel desperate, so always sways the grade in my head. 

OP Paul Sagar 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Phil Lyon:

How did you do the chimney with the right wall running with water? The only way I could see to get into it was to use a right foot on the foothold that was totally soaked. My foot pinged off when I experimented with weighting it and given that I really really didn't want to go back to the hospital this year, we retreated and abseiled back down off the tree a little way down.

 Alkis 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Trangia:

The hand traverse along the wall above the chasm I did instead was not VDiff either, but it was quite nice. I like my ankles too much to contemplate that jump.

 Phil Lyon 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

I think FPR grade of Diff is assuming you avoid the slab? At Froggatt, a route the same length as the Yellow Slab pitch of 4b would be a HS I guess. But as part of the overall route, just worth a mention as a tricky bit if you fancy it.

Anyone know why Tennis Shoe got upgraded but others didn't? 

1st and last pitches are worth the grade; the rest is super easy, safe slab.

The main pattern here seems to be anything involving a struggle being described as savage, so most old fashioned mountain chimneys would qualify; I certainly always make harder work of them.

 Phil Lyon 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Yeah, I remember that moment. The slopy wet foothold was unavoidable to get up the chimney for me. I used it carefully, almost slipped off it but made sure my balance was ready to counter it a bit. Somehow this worked.

 C Witter 30 Sep 2020
In reply to finc00:

> I thought Cioch Nose (VD) was pretty stiff for Vdiff, however I would disagree with the SMCs grade of Sev 4a, simply because its Vdiff! (even though theres probably one or two 4a moves on it)


I thought Bonners and Patey had this one down as a Diff?

 JimR 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Many years ago (like 40) I came back up to Scotland for a holiday and went with a scottish mate to do The Needle at Shelterstone, it was early in the season and wet so he suggested we go to Stac an Fharaidh and do Pipet Slab (VD) to rescue the day. (We'd already done a load of HVS/E1s that week in the Coe and Poldhu) Go across the glen and off I went in the direction he pointed, After almost a ropelength of 4c/5a with little protection I got a belay in a bum sized  depression in the rock with a hex wedged between a bit of turf and a bit of heather. Brought him up and led on and found a couple of nut placements in an otherwise blind crack up an overhanging corner so felt a lot safer, I reckon the corner was E4 6a (I was regularly climbingE3 to E5 down south at the time) and continued on the climbing eased and eventually we ended up on top and I recall the fag I smoked was one of the best I'd had   we agreed that Cairngorm grading was a bit harsh, being young and naive it never occurred to me that perhaps we were'nt quite on route although I remember commenting that the climbing did'nt quite seem to match the route.   That was the hardest VD i've done Looking at the photos of Pipet Slab on UKC, I'm not sure we were even on the correct crag!

OP Paul Sagar 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Phil Lyon:

Yeah, I forgot about the last pitch - that is harder than the rest of the route/ Faith, upon reflection. Cool finish though.

 Trangia 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Arcturus:

> Tennis Shoe (ldwal) back in the day was Vdiff. Hard Severe now . How times have changed 

In the days when it was V Diff it's top pitch always had a reputation for being very thin for the grade and pretty well impossible to protect. A fall here would have had very serious consequences. It's over 10 years since I last led it, by then upgraded to Severe, and even with modern gear the protection was little more than phycological. Technically it isn't that hard, but it's a bad place to slip.

 Trangia 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

> The Yellow Slab at 4b on Overlapping Ridge Route (First Pinnacle Rib) (D) (or is it the other one - Second Pinnacle Rib) is a bit tough for D (some guidebooks give them VD) but easily avoided.

I remember the first time I led Yellow Slab, Second Pinnacle Rib in the 1960s. I was in Army boots, and there was no protection. Character building because whilst there is a large ledge under it a fall would probably have still resulted in a broken leg or two. One of the hardest Diffs in Ogwen if you included this slab pitch. Easily Severe now, but Diff if you avoid it.

Another Ogwen Diff was Bochlwyd Buttress Chimney which was good solid fun, particularly surmounting the chock stone, which was a bold but still sound move. I see that it's been upgraded to Severe, but think this has now resulted in it being over graded. Maybe compromise at V Diff?

 Offwidth 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Cheeky bugger

I'm perfectly aware what I enjoy isn't always to others tastes. Midges aside and under dry conditions it's a justified classic, pretty much all on good rock.

 Trangia 30 Sep 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

> The description from Rockfax in the UKC logbook seems to be for Kirkus Direct, not Kirkus' Climb, which is definitely sustained S 4a. I don't have the rockfax to check if its an error in the book or in the logbook but the line that's described is definitely the direct route from the CC guide.

Is that still there and climbable since the rock fall wiped out many of the routes there?

 Trangia 30 Sep 2020
In reply to C Witter:

>

> Some people seem to think Bowfell Buttress (HS 4b) is hard for the VDiff that it definitely is... Pfff... Langdale guidebook writer must have gone soft

It's a good solid V Diff and one of the best mountain routes of that grade in Langdale. The crux crack above the wide grassy ledge would be graded a lot harder if it was more exposed, but it lacks the seriousness of an exposed route because it can be protected. Admittedly that  protection tends to bugger up the very fingerholds you need, resulting in your needing a bit of ingenuity and boldness to surmount a move or two here

 Rog Wilko 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Trangia:

Different crag?

 Trangia 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Rog Wilko:

> Different crag?

Sorry I'm puzzled?

In reply to Trangia:

The rockfall was at Craig Cwm silyn, we're talking about clogwyn yr oen in the moelwyns. Kirkus was prolific!

 Trangia 30 Sep 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

Thank you! Yes, whoops!  I was referring to the Cwm Sylan rock fall!!

 Michael Hood 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> On Tennis Shoe being upgraded to HS...

> ...I did the stupidly dangerous solo of the direct start last year, 

Tennis Shoe - The Direct Start (E1 5a) is no more stupidly dangerous than any other solo on the slabs - actually less so because it's only a first pitch. Your log book shows you as leading it (without any useful pro), so I suppose having gear on and the weight of the rope would make it a bit harder - certainly psychologically harder.

On the same day I also soloed the whole of Tennis Shoe (HS 4b), the hardest bit was the top pitch which was polished and thin for Severe - which is presumably why it's HS now.

There is no way I would solo that top pitch again, but if I was climbing well enough I could contemplate soloing the direct start again.

The middle pitches are no harder than the three VD "virtues" climbs.

 alan moore 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Immediatly after doing Main Wall on Cryn Las in the rain (HVS/E1 ??),  we went over to Gambit Climb when the sun came out and failed to get up the first pitch.

Maybe we were tired or maybe its the kind of beast you are looking for..

In reply to alan moore:

That first pitch of gambit is hard! As hard as anything on main wall, particularly in the wet.

 Offwidth 30 Sep 2020
In reply to pancakeandchips:

Agreed. More like top end HVD  4a when dry... Think   Answer Crack (HVD)

Of all the classics mentioned so far Land's End Long Climb is the hardest in adjectival terms that is currently graded VD or HVD somewhere; in technical terms it's Marble Tower Flake.

Post edited at 22:47
 Offwidth 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

I agree that top pitch is scary without modern pro (or solo).

 veteye 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

I saw the Yellow Slab as a challenge, mainly due to the polish, and did it in big boots, and it was just a question of keeping the tension on the feet. It was a dry day though.

 donrobson 30 Sep 2020
In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

I did Great Gully in the rain years ago - was almost avalanched down several times couldnt do the exit so went down then up high angle grass for ?2-3 pitches - didnt feel VD to me!

 munkins 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I've never found a V diff difficult, although I've backed off a few severs when soloing. To my shame.

 Offwidth 01 Oct 2020
In reply to donrobson:

Great Gully hasn't been VD for over four decades. Its tough when wet but I never really understood what the fuss was about when dry at the severe grade (the exit looks way harder than it climbs) or why it ever got three stars.... unlike Clachaig Gully most of the climbing lower down on Great Gully is pretty shit. If we are using historic grades there are a few old grit VDiffs which are extremes now.

I'm also ignoring roues like Verandah Buttress, where the grade is a well known climber's joke, as the '5b' start deserves at least HS (but there are hard-to-spot easier ways from 4c... Chris Fitzhugh has for years led a small group who have discovered the trick and collected several other weird and wonderful ways to do this start)

 CurlyStevo 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I found this one pretty out there for vdiff but then it would be fairly straight forward at severe https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/gearr_aonach-474/the_wabe_summer-1...

 alan moore 01 Oct 2020
In reply to CurlyStevo:

9 log book entries for a 3 star route says a lot about the Wabe. Not quite sure where it goes even!

Nearby Arrow Wall is another contender, but I think it's been discovered recently and put up to Severe.

 CurlyStevo 01 Oct 2020
In reply to alan moore:

I personally think the chimney section on this is pretty damn nails too https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/cir_mhor-13421/souwester_slabs-209...

 CurlyStevo 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

This could be a contender for the most savage I’ve done at the grade. The route name says it all https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/clogwyn_dur_arddu_cloggy-457/primi...

 PaulJepson 01 Oct 2020
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I don't think the chimney section really counts (as it's South Ridge Direct). Sou'wester slabs finishes before that pitch. I would agree that pitch is at least 4a though, but not a sandbag. Just weird traditional granite. 

 CurlyStevo 01 Oct 2020
In reply to PaulJepson:

Pretty sure thats not correct and the chimneys are on route and shared by several routes no?

 PaulJepson 01 Oct 2020
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Not sure but I got the impression the route finished after the little sideways walk p3. You have an option to finish up south ridge or get off there. We scrambled/abbed off to do Labyrinth, having done SRD the day before. 

 CurlyStevo 01 Oct 2020
In reply to PaulJepson:

No I don’t think so.

 wiwwim 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I would say tentatively "Wogs" at chudleigh.  Un-PC name, savage polish. Chudleigh Rocks - South Face.  I believe the name may change, but not sure about the grade.

1
 Bulls Crack 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Northumberland used to have a fair few Vdiffs that would probably get 5+ sport if bolted - no =that I'm suggesting they should be I might add. 

OP Paul Sagar 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

Yeah, I naively expected there to be *some* gear - so wasn't psychologically prepared for what was in effect a solo...but with a full rack on, tied in, pausing a lot desperately looking for placements that weren't there. Would definitely be easier if I had just gone at it planning to solo...

 Rog Wilko 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> Northumberland used to have a fair few Vdiffs that would probably get 5+ sport if bolted - no =that I'm suggesting they should be I might add. 

I'd forgotten about The County tradition of sandbagging! This is one of many examples:

 https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/crag_lough-828/tarzans_mate-41881

Seems to be given severe on UKC, but still V Diff in the current guidebook. Even at severe 4a it remains very undergraded.

 sbc23 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Left Hand Crack (HVD)

One of those limestone routes that looks like a scramble from the ground. Isn't. 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Cuillin ridge in Isle of Skye is definitely a savage vdiff .

 johnlc 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

How about Hollybush Gully on Birchen?  Described in one guide I have as a 'titanic struggle'.  The UKC directory acknowledges that the grade is a guesstimate.   It consists of a narrow vee-shaped chimney with a green, polished crack at the back and a chockstone at about 8 feet.  Horrible.  It certainly spat me out.

 Offwidth 01 Oct 2020
In reply to johnlc:

Another route with a Chris Fitzhugh trick method, but this one he demonstrates to the masses. VD 4b in the latest guidebooks

 Adam_42 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Can't believe no one's mentioned Rough Crack (VD) yet. Closest I ever came to a proper whip in my very early trad career. From memory, the finish is an absolute nightmare.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Angular Chimney (VD) is pretty horrendous and serious. Desperately undergraded. Amazed it's still given V Diff when the slightly easier Monolith Crack (HS) (graded Diff - V Diff when I did it in 1968) is now rightly given Hard Severe.

Post edited at 14:35
 full stottie 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Adam_42:

> Can't believe no one's mentioned Rough Crack (VD) yet. Closest I ever came to a proper whip in my very early trad career. From memory, the finish is an absolute nightmare.

I'll second that. Well, nearly did.

 Michael Hood 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Adam_42:

Don't remember it being a problem - might be a marmite route - can you jam?

 Adam_42 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Michael Hood:

Seem to recall commenting at the time that it would be easier if you liked jamming (I don't, but am passable at it when forced). Most Vdiffs don't require a straight jam though (they're slightly slabby or have other hold options), which I think makes it quite a sandbag when you're just starting out and picking Vdiffs because they should be an easier outing.

 Dave Garnett 01 Oct 2020
In reply to ChristianTyroll:

> Only got three pitches in to Land End Long Climb and sacked it off on the basis I was worried about the rest of it for my second. Pitch 2, whilst awesome was harder than any S 4a I’d gone up with my partner previously. 

I think that's fair.  And that isn't even the hard bit!

 wilkesley 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Offwidth

> I'm also ignoring roues like Verandah Buttress, where the grade is a well known climber's joke, as the '5b' start deserves at least HS (but there are hard-to-spot easier ways from 4c... Chris Fitzhugh has for years led a small group who have discovered the trick and collected several other weird and wonderful ways to do this start)

I have only done Verandah Butress once. The trick I was shown was to insert your forearm, facing up, deep into the crack and then step up. It works, but if your foot slips off the very polished start you will almost certainly break your arm!

Post edited at 16:56
 PaulJepson 01 Oct 2020
In reply to johnlc:

Is that the one that shares the start of Powder Monkey? If so, it's very height-dependent. If you can reach the chockstone easily it's merely a severe. I don't know how it can be vdif though,  cos it's minimum of 4b. More 5a if you're <5'10. 

 Dave Garnett 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

> Anyone know why Tennis Shoe got upgraded but others didn't? Although I'm not much of a judge at the moment (memories from when I was fit and bold enough to basically solo HVS vs. now when my foot doesn't really work properly and slabs are painful), I don't remember Tennis Shoe being any harder than Faith...

I think it's for the now very polished top pitch.  I've soloed it several times over the years but decided I wouldn't be doing that again after leading it more recently. 

 Iain Thow 01 Oct 2020
In reply to JimR:

Pippet Slab gets Mild Severe these days (and that definitely doesn't sound like it). I still have a score to settle with it. Went to do Whispers one June, it was wet so we decided to do Pippet Slab instead. Got two pitches up when it snowed. Had an 'interesting' time reversing the second pitch through the overlaps and traversing off (I'm too much of a skinflint to abandon gear unless I absolutely have to). We eventually did Afterthought Arete in more snow but at least that has lots of big holds.

 CurlyStevo 01 Oct 2020
In reply to Iain Thow:

Yeah Pippet Slab is still probably still a sandbag at MS, I reckon its a similar difficulty to Auld Nick and also Ardverkie Wall S / midgrade HS sort of area.

 Michael Gordon 02 Oct 2020
In reply to CurlyStevo:

It get's Severe doesn't it? No such thing as Mild Severe in modern SMC guidebooks...

But it's surely a good bit easier than Ardverikie Wall; I thought that was pushing 4c.

 Mick Ward 02 Oct 2020
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> I think it's for the now very polished top pitch.  I've soloed it several times over the years but decided I wouldn't be doing that again after leading it more recently. 

IIRC in the late '60s there was a letter from Robin Collomb (sp?) in a climbing mag, making a then shocking (or futuristic?) argument for Tennis Shoe to be upgraded because of the polish on that top pitch. He'd done it with Crew and some other notable; both of them had simply accepted the traditional grading. When he explained how he felt the polish had changed things, they had a think and agreed with him.

I've only done it once, on a lovely evening in the '90s when I had the slabs all to myself and could get everything soloed. Was happy soloing at higher grades and did Great Wall the next day. Nevertheless found the top pitch polished and thought provoking. It had that 'bullet in the chamber' feeling of something which could finish you off if you didn't give it enough respect. If it's got worse, then I wouldn't be mad keen to go back, certainly without a rope.

Mick

1
In reply to Mick Ward:

Top pitch of Tennis Shoe. IIRC, there's next to no protection (?), so it's quite scary even with a rope. Did it twice - 1968 and then some time in the late 70s. I do remember the moves being good and thought provoking. By far the best thing on the route.

 Lyndleme 02 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I miss doing a long fulfulling climb

 Howard J 02 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

I haven't been in for a while, but I'm sure Plas y Brenin had a photo on the wall of Tennis Shoe with a caption explaining how the grade has changed over the years.  I don't recall the details, but I think that when it was originally graded the lack of protection wasn't a factor, because protection didn't really exist.  It may even have been downgraded once it became protectable, but has since been upgraded to reflect the polish, and different attitudes to what makes a V Diff.

These days V Diff tends to be thought of as a beginner grade (which underestimates it) and there is an expectation that it will be on good holds and fairly well protected.  It has come to be expected that you shouldn't find long runouts without gear on easy routes, although these were once normal, even as late as the 1970s when I started climbing.  I think this reappraisal is part of the reason that so many routes have been upgraded, despite modern protection and modern footwear.

1
baron 02 Oct 2020
In reply to Howard J:

The 1958 Cwm Idwal guide had Tennis Shoe as Hard Very Difficult.

The 1982 guide has it as Severe.

Do we know when it was upgraded to Hard Severe?  

 MattL80 03 Oct 2020
In reply to C Witter:

>  I also seem to remember feeling nervy running together the long slab of Central ArĂȘte (VD), because the rock felt very snappy and the gear very poor - though it may have just been me feeling a bit tired.

I had a bit of an epic on this

In reply to baron:

When I first started climbing in North Wales in 1967 the Cwm Idwal guidebook (5th edition, of that year, by Tony Moulam) graded Tennis Shoe as Severe. It gave us no shock, as beginners; it seemed absolutely in keeping with the Ogwen grades then.

I never bought another guide covering Cwm Idwal until the Ogwen and Carneddau guide of 1993, when it was given Hard Severe. (Except Ron James in his superb Rockclimbing in North Wales, in 1970, gave it S- (Severe minus) )

Hope that helps. [As an old-timer/fart I have something like 8 yards of shelves creaking with old guidebooks]

Post edited at 22:33
 birdie num num 04 Oct 2020
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Probably a question of how you’re feeling on the day... Milestone Direct never felt savage to me, however.... The Wrinkle, now that was another story... harder than v diff surely?! But probably not.

baron 04 Oct 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> When I first started climbing in North Wales in 1967 the Cwm Idwal guidebook (5th edition, of that year, by Tony Moulam) graded Tennis Shoe as Severe. It gave us no shock, as beginners; it seemed absolutely in keeping with the Ogwen grades then.

> I never bought another guide covering Cwm Idwal until the Ogwen and Carneddau guide of 1993, when it was given Hard Severe. (Except Ron James in his superb Rockclimbing in North Wales, in 1970, gave it S- (Severe minus) )

> Hope that helps. [As an old-timer/fart I have something like 8 yards of shelves creaking with old guidebooks]

Thanks for that.

 Dave Garnett 04 Oct 2020
In reply to Mick Ward:

> Nevertheless found the top pitch polished and thought provoking. It had that 'bullet in the chamber' feeling of something which could finish you off if you didn't give it enough respect. 

Yes, on those last couple of moves before you get the first secure jam under the capstone at the top you are certainly very aware of the very big drop to your left. Although, even if you somehow managed to  bounce down the line of the pitch and land on the ledge below I don’t think it would end well either.

 CurlyStevo 04 Oct 2020
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Oh really? I remember thinking when Ardverikie wall was upgraded it was more S than HS really and must be quite a soft touch at the grade. I haven't got my latest  cairngorms guide to hand but I think it may get MS.

Post edited at 10:35
 Michael Gordon 04 Oct 2020
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> Oh really? I remember thinking when Ardverikie wall was upgraded it was more S than HS really and must be quite a soft touch at the grade.

Now that would be a sandbag...

"I haven't got my latest cairngorms guide to hand but I think it may get MS."

It doesn't.

Post edited at 10:42
 CurlyStevo 04 Oct 2020
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Fair enough on the MS, it used to get that in the old guide IIRC. Its still quite tricky for S as is Auld Nick.


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