UKC

I know of someone who is in their mid teens and has done a bit of soloing. What are peoples views on this? Right? Wrong?

In reply to Hazelnuts: you've not given anywhere enough information to decide.

Age doesn't have too much to do with it

In reply to Hazelnuts:

Depends on their competence and what they're soloing. Would you post the same thing about leading? Lots of routes have limited gear and are effectively solos for at least part of the route.

I guess if I was a teenager with my current level of ability, I probably wouldn't tell my parents how much soloing I did, but I'd definitely do it anyway.

So, 'right' if done with good judgement, but naturally worrying for mum and dad (unless they're experienced climbers, in which case they'd get it).

In reply to Ander:

Well I was wondering if people think that at that age, they wouldn't have the good call of judgement for whether or not what they are doing is right or wrong.

They are a very competent climber in my view.

In reply to Hazelnuts: when we were kids in the 70's and early 80's, we used to walk out to Bennybeg and play on the rocks. We used to dare each other to see who could get the highest

In reply to Hazelnuts:It is true that your brain keeps developing untill about 25 with regards to weighing up risk and responding to the people around you and taking risks in thier company, but it does depend on the teenager's judgement.

Leo Holding was always okay as a teenager, and I soloed (much easier climbs than him) and was okay.

It's a grey area, probably best if they solo climbs they've already climbed before though, and don't solo to prove anything to other people.

I'd not solo now (dodgy elbows and more of a sense of responsibility towards my family...brothers parents and nephew and nieces) but I survived alright. I'm not sure if others can really say to be honest.

In reply to Hazelnuts:Survived and enjoyed it. ()

In reply to Hazelnuts:

Depends on how and what.

I solo quite a bit, but I only solo what I am comfortable with, I leave grade pushing to roped stuff. So on that basis, fire on in. Age there has nothing to do with it, and I always hold climbing like this is not really any more dangerous than many other activities.

If pushing your grade whilst soloing, then I would probably start to raise my eyebrows, but then some people enjoy doing that. So to me that is an issue between parent and teenager. If it reaches competition level then I would not be impressed, as too many external forces pushing the sport unsafely, but I do not know of any competition that allows young teens to seriously push solo grades!!

In reply to Hazelnuts:

There is no 'right' or 'wrong'. There is decision made by the person concerned.

Personally I soloed 100's of routes before I made 20. It was what I decided to do. It wasn't right or wrong.

In reply to Hazelnuts:

I soloed plenty of trees even before my teen days.

There's a big difference between a 13 year old soloing with little experience, and a 19 year old with, say, 3 years climbing behind him. And obviously, the grade relative to their other climbing.

I can understand that an "adult" might be uncomfortable if out with a 14-16 year old who was soloing, if that adult felt they might be viewed as responsible for the younger climber.

In reply to Hazelnuts: Depends on their experience and motivation as others have said. I'd discourage a teen from soloing if I felt they were trying to prove something (though I would still leave the decision up to them). I would caution a teen if I felt they were tackling routes too close to their limit, try and inject some idea of what a fall would mean but again, leave the choice to them ultimately.
Children have to learn to cross the road, make decisions on drugs/alcohol/sex/tobacco and a load of other activities with different risks. Ultimately soloing isn't much different and the "supply-information-so-they-make-an-informed-choice" approach would seem to be the way todays wisdom says everything else should be dealt with.

And ofc if I was legally responsible for them I'd sooner tie them to a rock on the ground than risk parental legal wrath if anything did go wrong!

In reply to Hazelnuts: As someone in their mid teens, i have done quite a lot of soloing, some of it quite close to my limit at the time. Though not done so much in the last couple of months for some reason. Frankly, it's up to me really what i do. Ive never really had any boundaries imposed on my climbing, as its all off my own bat and thats what I think is great about it! though that seems to be less so with other climbers of my age group...

In reply to Hazelnuts: What are your views on it?

In reply to Hazelnuts:

Do they regularly cross roads, cycle, cook, shave, walk up and down stairs, use stationary, eat sweets and other potentially lethal activities?

In reply to Hazelnuts:


Most teenagers tend to solo up the stairs in their own home...

In reply to Hazelnuts:

Also - I think it is a shame that young people aren't encouraged to weigh up risks for themselves. When I was a kid, we spent loads of time away from adults getting up to all sorts. We set fire to things, build camps, climbed trees, made weapons, crossed roads, rummaged in woods, talked to strangers...

Nowadays, at what age is a person expected to start to take any sort of responsibility for themselves? I know plenty of 18 and 19 year olds who have virtually no confidence in their own decision making abilities...

In reply to tlm:

soloing is a bad idea unless you're sure you won't fall off.

In reply to Hazelnuts:

My view on this is that its none of my f*cking business.

When a kid I climbed many trees (sans ropes, natch), rode my bike as fast as I could down steep hills, and plenty of other activities of dubious safety.

It's part of growing up.

The prediliction to wrap kids in cotton wool and prevent them doing anything that might harm them is, in my view, misguided, stupid, and insulting to the intelligence of the kids themselves.

And trying to whip up outrage Daily Mail fashion is not pretty either.

In reply to John_Hat: I agree with all the above. Having said that ... I'm keeping pretty quiet with my own kids about what I used to get up at their age, selfishly I'd rather the odds on their survival until after I'm gone at least are better than they must have been for me when I was 16 and up for anything climbing wise

In reply to John_Hat:


It doesn't seem like that to me.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I think there's an obvious role for parents to point out to young kids what is dangerous and what isn't - i.e. don't stick metal items in plug sockets, etc, and that is part of being a responsible parent.

However by the time kids reach mid-teens they should be grown up enough to make their own decisions. Also, mid-teen kids are going to push boundaries whether the parents like it or not.

In reply to Timmd:

Fair eough. I thought the OP was leaning a bit in that direction, but happy to be wrong.

Being a teenager myself i aslo like the ocasional solo but i would not jump on somthing were i might fall off unless its lowish down. so why say yes or no to teeagers doing it ? its all about learning and for some climbers who want to push their grades and stuff its good head training. The thing is u shouldnt judged people by what they enjoy to do but just guide them to make sure their not putting them selfs in really bad situations. but at the end of the day its cclimbings FUN its just which aspect u enjoy most

In reply to Jordon Fleming:

Spot on. Agree with you completely.

In reply to Hazelnuts:

disgraceful! when I was a teenager you wouldn't catch me doing anything remotely dangerous! what sort of teenage lad craves danger and excitment?!
:-p

In reply to Hazelnuts:

If they are soloing recklessly, lacking control and skin of teeth stuff, I'd be worried whatever the age. If they are considered, age has nout to do with. Judgement comes from experience not age IMO.

In reply to Hazelnuts: teenagers are just as mature as adults, people solo for different reasons and teenagers reasons are just as valid, and the way I see it if teenagers can jon the army and go to war at 16 they have there own control over danger and can solo and younger than this they can still do what they want

In reply to Punter999: but Owen makes a very good point

In reply to Punter999:


Really?


Which they can't ...

My view is they should be saluted for getting off their backside and living their life.

If concerned, take them out for an epic mountain day and be a positive influence. I can't imagine they will listen to being pooh-poohed when they are adventurous enough to explore the risks and rewards of soloing.

PS. I am saluting them right now with my arse firmly planted on a chair in front of a desk, and my mind back on youthful adventures. Please join me!

In reply to Punter999:


Eh?



Chris

In reply to Hazelnuts: When I was a teenager we used to cross the road in towns without pelican crossings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In reply to Parrys_apprentice:

but that is the thing - if you never take any risks, then how do you develop your own decision making about when or not you are likely to fall off? You could end up never really being sure about anything at all without someone else telling you...

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

They probably keep quiet with you about what they get up to as well! Kids can be very protective of their parents!

In reply to tlm: Yes, I've always been in favour of a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy ... So far, so good (he says, with fingers tightly crossed.)

In reply to Hazelnuts:

I did lots of soloing in my teens.....I got away with it.....probably lucky to as well. Would certainly not recomend it....all it takes is one dodgy hold then could be the end of your climbing career or worse.Risk vs Gain is simply not worth it.
Having said that I had and still have great times soloing....so its a case of do as I say rather than what I do!.

In reply to Hazelnuts:
I like and enjoy soloing but rarely push my grade on it these days. At one time, due mainly to eagerness and occasional lack of partners, I would solo at or very close to my lead grade. So I don't see soloing as either right or wrong it just is. While I would be concerned about anyone I knew soloing I don't see anything inherently wrong in teenagers soloing. Most teenagers have a healthy fear of falling and wouldn't push a climb unless goaded.
I know I did when I was climbing trees, jumping off garage roofs, scaling derelict buildings, building dodgy rafts on the canal and swinging over enormous drops from tree swings.

In reply to Hazelnuts:

Climbing and mountaineering are about managing risk. If soloing helps them judge risk and come to some sensible conclusions then good for them. Removing risk so a teenager grows up having no judgement in this regard is a bad idea. You say they are a competent climber, so presumably that means you agree with the way they manage risk when climbing?

In reply to Hazelnuts: If said teenager wants a buzz, he should lead trad routes at the limit of his ability. Unless he has no mates to hold the rope.

Soloing is a mug's game. What do you do if a hold comes off in your hand? Or a fulmar vomits in your eye? Or it starts lagging down with rain?

I presume the teenager in question has loads of experience of leading on real rock? He's done mountaineering to boredom? He's summited the Ben via every grade VI ice route? Or is he an indoor climber who's done some sports routes and thinks placing gear is too much like work?

In reply to Hazelnuts: I did a lot of soloing when in my teens, well throughout my climbing career, and actually never had a serious fall soloing in over 40 years, actually I never had a serious fall leading even, though I did have long falls and even ground hitting ones.
I think you just need to know where you are at climbing wise, unfortunately starting off by climbing on indoor walls doesn't give you that in my opinion.

In reply to Fred Astaire:

I don't see the distinction between leading and soloing. On many outcrop routes, part of the route is a solo anyway, or becomes one as soon as one piece of gear fails/would fail.

For me and particular skill set and route choice, going soloing on grit is usually much safer than going leading. When I go soloing, I do routes I know I can do and I never fall off. When I go out leading, I do routes which I might well fall off, and they're rarely particularly well protected.

So I think your binary view of climbing (rope = safe, solo = danger) could benefit from readjusting to something a bit more nuanced.

I kind of agree if you're going soloing at Gogarth, but that's probably not what the OP was talking about.

What's half of that stuff got to do with it? You don't go soloing because you've climbed everything on the Ben, you go soloing to enjoy a climb at your local crag, free of faff, doing loads of routes, and enjoying the the buzz of it.

Have a watch of this video which is great look at soloing on grit:

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4748

It might inspire you to get to your local crag and enjoy some of the classics you've done before with a new perspective.

In reply to Hazelnuts: I soloed a few routes with dad when i was 16/17ish and when i was on me lonesome. If they know what there up to and not pushing it then why not. To be honest if i'd apply that logic to anyone soloing regardless of age...

In reply to Jon Stewart: Let's ask the OP. Hazelnut - are you an experienced outdoor climber who has a fair idea of the degrees of subjective and objective danger involved in soloing? Have you led or seconded the routes you are soloing? Do you have sufficient local knowledge to assess the risk of broken holds, bird disturbance and the effects of a sudden heavy shower?

Or are you a wall wizard looking for a blues and twos ride to A+E and 3 years of reconstructive surgery? Believe me, I'm not joining this thread for fun. I've seen the consequences of people doing stupid things and being over-confident.

In reply to Fred Astaire:

Err, you see that little question mark next to Hazelnut's name? Try clcking on that and see what happens. That should answer your questions.

BTW. You seem to have some kind of hang up over indoor climbing. Just mentioning.

In reply to Oceanrower: And, anyway, as the OP clearly says he KNOWS of someone in his teens bouldering, why is his own experience of any relevance?

In reply to Hazelnuts: Unfortunately, you replied to your own thread, (post 4) spoiling what would otherwise be a very good troll.

In reply to Hazelnuts: I think you should totally ban them from doing it, that way they'll have one more reason to do it.

In reply to Oceanrower: Thanks for the question mark tip. I'm fairly new on this forum.

I don't have a "hang up" about indoor climbing, but it doesn't teach a climber much about rock climbing. It's a training method.

In reply to Oceanrower: I assumed (we'll wait for the OP to clarify) that his "friend" might just happen to be closer than that; as in "Doctor, my friend thinks he might have caught an STD".

In reply to Fred Astaire: Ok, fair enough. Though if the OP is the "friend" then, looking at his profile, I suspect he is more than well enough qualified to make the decisions for himself.


Best Onsights
Sport - F7b
Bouldering - font 7a+
Indoor - F7b

Worked Grades
Bouldering - font 7b+
Indoor - F7c

And, whilst I agree that indoor climbing doesn't transfer to the outdoors directly, I suspect that the chances of getting a 'spinner' are much higher than rock holds coming off in your hand.

Although that is obviously destination dependant I wouldn't think that many people solo a new or overgrown route.

In reply to all the "hey I'm hip with the kids": so teenage boys are mature and perfectly capable of risk assessment. Leave da yout do dem ting. Why then does it cost 10 times the value of the car to insure a 17 year old boy to drive his new banger? Is this discrimination? Or maybe the actuaries have looked at all the accident and mortality figures and worked out that the average 17 year old boy (I use the word advisedly) is a f*ckin eejit when it comes to risk assessment, prone to bouts of recklessness, and very subject to peer group pressure. I know I was, as were nearly all my mates apart from the odd swotty straighty type. Strange argument about them being able to enlist being some sort of evidence of mental maturity - the recruiting sergeant has always known where the easy pickings lie. Obviously you can't stop them doing it (any more than climbing pylons, sniffing glue or surfing tube trains) but to suggest that except in a few well matured, precocious, talented cases it's a good or even vaguely reasonable idea is beyond ridiculous

In reply to janiejonesworld:
If they are ejits at risk assessment it is us who have made them that way for molly coddling them. When I were a kid if we came home wi'out any broken bones are mam used to send us back out again an tell us to play properly. "Go jump off sum rooves or summat" she would say, "Dunna bother me am cooking yer dad's tea".
Tell that to the kids today an they won't believe you.

In reply to Hazelnuts: Ok, new question: UKC parents, would you be happy with your teenage kids soloing?

In reply to Shadowmaster:
I'm 18 and i've been soloing since I was 16ish. I do it for my reasons and I don't think people should have an opinion of other people's soloing, regardless of age. If they want to solo, that's their decision. As long as they're aware of the risks that's all you can do. Soloing doesn't fit into categories of right or wrong.

In reply to Shadowmaster: That's funny - I saw this thread a while back and thought a relation of mine had started it (Hazelhead) but now it seems to be Shadowmaster. Confusing!

I tend to agree with the posters who are against soloing. We've probably all soloed something - even if it's just a descent route. The age of the climber is irrelevant, but statistics show that the biggest cause of death in males under 25 is accidents. Most of these accidents don't happen whilst playing chess.

Young men are hard-wired to seek risk, fight, impress young ladies with their courage, brag, shout, show off and generally take everything to excess. Evolution hasn't managed to knock it out of them so maybe the moral is: climb sensibly unless there's an attractive girl watching and then do your best to look insanely, recklessly and rather sexily brave.

In reply to Pete Smith: Are bold routes OK? What about highball bouldering? Or does all climbing have to conform to some British Standard of well-protectedness, or else it is a reckless activity?

I like soloing grit routes I know I can do (even if they're at my lead grade), I don't do it to impress girls (I'm not into them), indeed I prefer to have the crag to myself if possible. I also like soloing classic multi-pitch routes that are a few grades below my limit and would take ages to lead, or if I'm on my own.

I think that people who solo routes out of bravado are way, way outnumbered by competent people who solo routes because they want to climb the route solo. For very much for the same reasons one might want to climb any route - for the buzz, the climbing, the experience.

In reply to Shadowmaster: I've just grown out of my teens so can't really comment having only soloed up to Severe but I have climbed tall trees since I was probably 6 yrs old. It's called growing up, something that a lot of people only a couple of years younger than me don't understand because they've been brought up playing the latest Call of Duty. I'd rather be outside soloing than snorting ketamine or plant food in some grotty basement somewhere and I'm sure most parents would be of the same viewpoint.

In reply to Shadowmaster: It's neither. It's a choice that an individual makes and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

In reply to Jackwd:

Yes, good point. I did a fair bit of soloing as a teenager and never broke anything. I did more damage to myself learning no hands on a push bike. A friend of mine climbed trees and broke loads of bones. We have to keep things in perspective, even if it is hard to do when we see a youngster high above the ground.

In reply to John Gillott: I remember it scared me watching you sometimes when you were a little lad, but once I realised how good you were and how in control, it were a treat to watch you

In reply to Al Evans:

Cheers Al. I'm wondering if I could bear watching my son solo climb now. He's got a way to go yet though (in age), and isn't into climbing at the moment, so maybe it won't come up. I'll have to get nervous watching him ride a bike at speed / climb trees instead.

In reply to Shadowmaster: I used to climb with a few teenage lads. As a group of mates they were insatiable, always pushing each other to climb harder and bolder routes. Great lads to climb with and I did some of the bests routes I've done seconding them on climbing trips. My attitude was if they're not climbing with me they'll be doing it anyway, regardless of what they're parents want. I have extensive first aid training in the past, plenty of mountain experience and have always managed to avoid any particularly bad situations in my climbing, so I figured I might as well just try and keep things as safe as I can for them.

Unfortunately one of the lads died in a abseiling accident, an utter tragedy. I wasn't on the trip but I've always felt some guilt for his death, had I encouraged him, should I have been more stern with his gear admin and safety procedures? Another lad I seconded on a very sketchy local E5, and went on to climb E8. Although I saw a video of him walking away from a 30 odd foot deck out I somehow knew he'll be alright.

I think some people are just wired to take risks and find life dull and unappealing without it. Unfortunately in high stake games there will be losers, it's up to the individual's own morality and understanding of why people do these things to determine whether it's right or wrong. My view is that it is inexorable.

In reply to Shadowmaster:

Teenagers soloing ? don't all teenagers climb trees ? they always used to.

In reply to Jackwd:

I'd rather be disembowelled than impaled on a red hot poker, I'm sure most parents would probably be of the same viewpoint.

However, it's not an argument that being disembowelled is a good idea.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

I think if I was a teenager these days, I'd probably choose both soloing and sitting in a grotty basement snorting plant food and ketamine. I'm not saying my parents would be particularly enthusiastic about that though!

In reply to Pete Smith:

That's a pretty wack use of 'statistics'. Given that young people are generally the healthiest portion of the population, there's no huge war on etc. it's hardly surprising that accidents cause the majority of deaths.

In reply:
Teenagers soloing. Brings back some great memories.

God almighty, what's it come to when this is a topic for discussion?

In reply to Mick Dewsbury:


I was curious to know what the UKC response was to this topic. Its been really interesting so far with some mixed views.

In reply to Shadowmaster:

all teenagers should be forced to solo.

sort some of the little wankers who think they are nails out.

Being a teenager I often solo stuff so I can set up a belay for my mate whos isn't confident enough to solo it himself and in return he promises not to tell my parents what I get up to.

In reply to ice.solo:

I think a more fair response to this thread is that they should not be discouraged from so doing.

In reply to ice.solo: Haha! Perfect. Sort the men from the boys!

In reply to Shadowmaster: Hiya, I am in my late teens and I go soloing every now and 6a but only ever solo around 5a or below. I think however that grade, height and regularity does not matter but instead the "state of mind" or attitude towards it does, for example if the teen in question does it to show off or for a stunt then stop him/her asap! But if they approach it with an appropriate level of mental maturity and respect then I am all for it and good luck to them.

In reply to Shadowmaster:

When I was a teenager, I usually soloed in my bedroom. Often as much as 5 or 6 times a day. Sometimes more, at weekend.