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Been meaning to do this since spending time working "that route" last year. The death of Brady yesterday gave me impetus to post it now.
You know the route I mean... That one with the name you hate to have to say at the far right end. The name that literally sticks in the throat when someone comes up and asks what you have just been on.
Shame because its actually a great route with sustained and absorbing climbing but totally offensive name!
Its not even a clever or funny "offensive" name (which I am often in favour of) its just a sick name which should be allowed to die off from usage.
Maybe I am missing something? I don't know the detailed history of the naming and believe it might have been re-named temporarily in the past. Certainly in my opinion its time for it to change now.
Does anyone else think its time for it to change?
You know the route I mean... That one with the name you hate to have to say at the far right end. The name that literally sticks in the throat when someone comes up and asks what you have just been on.
Shame because its actually a great route with sustained and absorbing climbing but totally offensive name!
Its not even a clever or funny "offensive" name (which I am often in favour of) its just a sick name which should be allowed to die off from usage.
Maybe I am missing something? I don't know the detailed history of the naming and believe it might have been re-named temporarily in the past. Certainly in my opinion its time for it to change now.
Does anyone else think its time for it to change?
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In reply to sheppy:
But 'let them eat jelly beans' is hardly the most offensive route name out there is it?
Unless you're a jelly bean
But 'let them eat jelly beans' is hardly the most offensive route name out there is it?
Unless you're a jelly bean
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The route's called 'Myra Hindley', just in case people don't want play route-name detective today.
Time is money people....
Time is money people....
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In reply to sheppy:
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=656346
Done to death recently. Conclusion was, get over yourself.
https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=656346
Done to death recently. Conclusion was, get over yourself.
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In reply to sheppy:
Seem to remember a lot of fuss over this route Zyklon 'B' (E4 6a)
But if it means you get someone wondering where the name comes from, and then reading this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B, is that bad or good ?
Seem to remember a lot of fuss over this route Zyklon 'B' (E4 6a)
But if it means you get someone wondering where the name comes from, and then reading this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zyklon_B, is that bad or good ?
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In reply to sheppy:
It's just a name.
Apparently some people react similarly to the place name Saddleworth but it's on my passport and I wouldn't want it changed for anything.
It's just a name.
Apparently some people react similarly to the place name Saddleworth but it's on my passport and I wouldn't want it changed for anything.
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In reply to sheppy:
And then we're going to have to re-name :- The Yorkshire Ripper (8b)
As I believe they say in the climbing world ... Get a bleedin' grip' !
And then we're going to have to re-name :- The Yorkshire Ripper (8b)
As I believe they say in the climbing world ... Get a bleedin' grip' !
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In reply to sheppy:
I think I agree with you. I know there's a tradition of edgy or contraversial route names, but I was listening to an interview with a psychologist this morning who was saying that for the moors murderers, the infamy, the becoming a household name was part of the package, and that the biggest service we can do for the memory of the victims is to collectively forget the perpetrators.
I think I agree with you. I know there's a tradition of edgy or contraversial route names, but I was listening to an interview with a psychologist this morning who was saying that for the moors murderers, the infamy, the becoming a household name was part of the package, and that the biggest service we can do for the memory of the victims is to collectively forget the perpetrators.
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In reply to GravitySucks:
A bit different as the name refers to the nature of the holds firstly and the infamous individual secondly. With MH there is no clever word play.
A bit different as the name refers to the nature of the holds firstly and the infamous individual secondly. With MH there is no clever word play.
In reply to toad:
Like it or not, the killers are more famous than the victims.
If the day ever dawns that Brady's and Hindley's names are wiped from our collective consciousness then by that point the names of the victims will have been long forgotten and that wouldn't seem right at all, especially in the case of Keith Bennet.
Like it or not, the killers are more famous than the victims.
If the day ever dawns that Brady's and Hindley's names are wiped from our collective consciousness then by that point the names of the victims will have been long forgotten and that wouldn't seem right at all, especially in the case of Keith Bennet.
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In reply to Tom Valentine:
Calling it Keith Bennet instead could seem like an honourable name change?
Calling it Keith Bennet instead could seem like an honourable name change?
Post edited at 16:59
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In reply to sheppy:
I don't suppose it's like once an opinion is reached on UKC, it's set in stone in a 'We've decided' kind of way?
One needn't give a weeple what other UKCer's think
> Sorry didn't realise it had already been to the test on here....
I don't suppose it's like once an opinion is reached on UKC, it's set in stone in a 'We've decided' kind of way?
One needn't give a weeple what other UKCer's think
Post edited at 23:25
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In reply to Tom Valentine:
It's never just a name or we wouldn't be talking about it and enjoy names so much. Also, editorial censorship in climbing has as long a history as the dumb ego of the occasional childish route naming or the edgy shock naming or personal political point scoring. Sometimes the name may have reasons most climbers didn't think of (even things like The Yorkshire Ripper flies over some heads). One strongly anti-censor editor I worked with even changed some new long names as the 'quality isn't big enough for it' and the name not funny or poetic enough in its own right. I'd rather we didn't censor as a rule but can see occasions where it might be necessary...in any case the FA has to live with the fact their climbing quality is better than their thoughtfulness. I'd really hate to lose some of the edgy or political naming.
It's never just a name or we wouldn't be talking about it and enjoy names so much. Also, editorial censorship in climbing has as long a history as the dumb ego of the occasional childish route naming or the edgy shock naming or personal political point scoring. Sometimes the name may have reasons most climbers didn't think of (even things like The Yorkshire Ripper flies over some heads). One strongly anti-censor editor I worked with even changed some new long names as the 'quality isn't big enough for it' and the name not funny or poetic enough in its own right. I'd rather we didn't censor as a rule but can see occasions where it might be necessary...in any case the FA has to live with the fact their climbing quality is better than their thoughtfulness. I'd really hate to lose some of the edgy or political naming.
Post edited at 07:21
In reply to Offwidth:
So there's no truth in the rumour that Lynn will be making Peak Limestone South a safe space?
So there's no truth in the rumour that Lynn will be making Peak Limestone South a safe space?
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In reply to Timmd:
Or potentially trivializing and awful (however good the intentions).
People don't generally speak route names with particular reverence or respect, or remember/care why a route's got the name it has, and you don't need people going round saying "God, I'm having such a hard time on that f***ing 'Keith Bennet' ..."
> Calling it Keith Bennet instead could seem like an honourable name change?
Or potentially trivializing and awful (however good the intentions).
People don't generally speak route names with particular reverence or respect, or remember/care why a route's got the name it has, and you don't need people going round saying "God, I'm having such a hard time on that f***ing 'Keith Bennet' ..."
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In reply to Timmd:
That's not for anyone to decide but the FA, I'd have thought. It would be a shame if we started sanitizing route names because the community finds them controversial - thin end of the wedge and all that?
Who knows what the intention of the FA was? Maybe it was childishness. Maybe it was a subtle comment on society's sensationalization of criminals.
> Calling it Keith Bennet instead could seem like an honourable name change?
That's not for anyone to decide but the FA, I'd have thought. It would be a shame if we started sanitizing route names because the community finds them controversial - thin end of the wedge and all that?
Who knows what the intention of the FA was? Maybe it was childishness. Maybe it was a subtle comment on society's sensationalization of criminals.
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In reply to ukb & bmc shark:
Peak Limestone safe???.... Things she is known for, like trying to encourage more photographs of female climbers in guidebooks (as role models) or finding newly written, lazily sexist, draft guidebook text tiresome when editing, is a very different situation to changing route names. History has always been very important for her (and humour..... without which we would have much fewer feminists in climbing and so for instance possibly not the cover shot on the Northern paired volume).
Peak Limestone safe???.... Things she is known for, like trying to encourage more photographs of female climbers in guidebooks (as role models) or finding newly written, lazily sexist, draft guidebook text tiresome when editing, is a very different situation to changing route names. History has always been very important for her (and humour..... without which we would have much fewer feminists in climbing and so for instance possibly not the cover shot on the Northern paired volume).
Post edited at 10:21
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In reply to planetmarshall:
What are you on about? Editorial censorhip has happened for many decades in guidebooks and sometimes its no loss to climbing at all (speaking as part of the BMC team who restored quite a few censored names, like The Snivelling)
What are you on about? Editorial censorhip has happened for many decades in guidebooks and sometimes its no loss to climbing at all (speaking as part of the BMC team who restored quite a few censored names, like The Snivelling)
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In reply to ukb & bmc shark:
It was a good joke well made and cued another less well told joke and an opportunity to make a useful serious point.. no sensitivity intended. Someone told me once that climbing is way too serious to not joke about it.
Lynn can speak for herself but I'm pleased with where we are with the modern guidebooks we both worked on and happy to celebrate that (and have the proverbial taken as necessary to cut excessive pride). I really do think some degree of editorial freedom in collecting together a portrait of the local activity, that is often anarchic, elitist and obsessive, is important to maintain it's character and history. I suspect like many editors I'm guilty of intolerance of really inane rudeness or excess verbosity, especially on trivial ascents, and very tolerant of thoughtful rudeness on major ascents and making space to celebrate these. The idea of the 'FA' always (and uniformly) having prime importance seems wrong and I do think what I see as editing and others might call censorship is sometimes OK. Even though I think in modern terms some past editing can be seen as excessive I think its useful to try and think what things were like in the context of the time.
I think people can sometimes forget this landmark decision was as recent as 1960... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Penguin_Books_Ltd
It was a good joke well made and cued another less well told joke and an opportunity to make a useful serious point.. no sensitivity intended. Someone told me once that climbing is way too serious to not joke about it.
Lynn can speak for herself but I'm pleased with where we are with the modern guidebooks we both worked on and happy to celebrate that (and have the proverbial taken as necessary to cut excessive pride). I really do think some degree of editorial freedom in collecting together a portrait of the local activity, that is often anarchic, elitist and obsessive, is important to maintain it's character and history. I suspect like many editors I'm guilty of intolerance of really inane rudeness or excess verbosity, especially on trivial ascents, and very tolerant of thoughtful rudeness on major ascents and making space to celebrate these. The idea of the 'FA' always (and uniformly) having prime importance seems wrong and I do think what I see as editing and others might call censorship is sometimes OK. Even though I think in modern terms some past editing can be seen as excessive I think its useful to try and think what things were like in the context of the time.
I think people can sometimes forget this landmark decision was as recent as 1960... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Penguin_Books_Ltd
Post edited at 12:04
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In reply to Offwidth:
The route name something like 'Jews banging on the roof of the gas chamber' came to mind on reading your replies, re route name change and censorship, and it sometimes being a good thing.
The route name something like 'Jews banging on the roof of the gas chamber' came to mind on reading your replies, re route name change and censorship, and it sometimes being a good thing.
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In reply to sheppy:
There's a few routes in the DB with the name "nig" with a neighbouring route with name "nog" which I personally think a bit shit. Quite happy to see these renamed.
There's a few routes in the DB with the name "nig" with a neighbouring route with name "nog" which I personally think a bit shit. Quite happy to see these renamed.
In reply to Timmd:
FAs have the right to call their routes whatever they like. Guidebook writers have the right to not include routes if the FA is a dick. I'm not sure I'd compare guidebook editors with D.H.Lawrence, however.
> The route name something like 'Jews banging on the roof of the gas chamber' came to mind on reading your replies, re route name change and censorship, and it sometimes being a good thing.
FAs have the right to call their routes whatever they like. Guidebook writers have the right to not include routes if the FA is a dick. I'm not sure I'd compare guidebook editors with D.H.Lawrence, however.
Post edited at 14:40
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In reply to Offwidth:
I'm lost - what is offensive about "The Snivelling"?
> speaking as part of the BMC team who restored quite a few censored names, like The Snivelling)
I'm lost - what is offensive about "The Snivelling"?
The Smiths wrote a song about the Moors Murders which caused all sorts of offence at the time. Morrissey met with the mother of one of the victims and assured her that no disrespect was meant.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffer_Little_Children
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suffer_Little_Children
In reply to planetmarshall:
That's probably the most sensible approach.
I don't think anyone has the right to alter another person's creation, no matter how childish, and I've always felt the name to be part of the route. If it has a manky greasy off-width I probably won't bother with it. Similarly if I has a sh*t name.
The first ascensionist will probably end up being the only ascensionist if only because we don't want the embarrassment of a Monday morning conversation like...
'What did you do at the weekend then?'
You can see how this ends, and it's not with a reference to someone's mother.
Interestingly, Wikipedia tells me that Zyklon B Zombie was the first single released by a band called Throbbing Gristle. That suggests to me that offensive names (song or route) are engendered by nothing more than a puerile desire for notoriety. They also knocked one out (sorry) called 'Five Knuckle Shuffle', which could be appropriated as the name of the aforementioned off-width...
Let's do the sensible thing and just ignore them until they grow up.
> FAs have the right to call their routes whatever they like. Guidebook writers have the right to not include routes if the FA is a dick.
That's probably the most sensible approach.
I don't think anyone has the right to alter another person's creation, no matter how childish, and I've always felt the name to be part of the route. If it has a manky greasy off-width I probably won't bother with it. Similarly if I has a sh*t name.
The first ascensionist will probably end up being the only ascensionist if only because we don't want the embarrassment of a Monday morning conversation like...
'What did you do at the weekend then?'
You can see how this ends, and it's not with a reference to someone's mother.
Interestingly, Wikipedia tells me that Zyklon B Zombie was the first single released by a band called Throbbing Gristle. That suggests to me that offensive names (song or route) are engendered by nothing more than a puerile desire for notoriety. They also knocked one out (sorry) called 'Five Knuckle Shuffle', which could be appropriated as the name of the aforementioned off-width...
Let's do the sensible thing and just ignore them until they grow up.
Post edited at 17:54
In reply to Owen W-G:
Since the mid sixties people have been making money out of the Moors Murders, either writing books about the topic, screenplays or, as in your example, songs.
I doubt that any of them intended causing misery, hurt or disrespect and by the same token, I doubt that the first ascensionist of Myra Hindley had harmful intentions and , in any case, his actions were not done with the intent of making a financial gain.
Since the mid sixties people have been making money out of the Moors Murders, either writing books about the topic, screenplays or, as in your example, songs.
I doubt that any of them intended causing misery, hurt or disrespect and by the same token, I doubt that the first ascensionist of Myra Hindley had harmful intentions and , in any case, his actions were not done with the intent of making a financial gain.
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In reply to sheppy:
I've never understood why this name is offensive to some people. It's not like it's saying anything positive about the Myra Hindley. Or do people take that as implied simply because someone has given the name to the route? To me it suggests that the route might be savage, brutal, or unrelenting perhaps, and of course it's located on the Yorkshire moors. So quite a good name if the route is like that.
I thought the route had been renamed Big Vern, at least at some point.
I've never understood why this name is offensive to some people. It's not like it's saying anything positive about the Myra Hindley. Or do people take that as implied simply because someone has given the name to the route? To me it suggests that the route might be savage, brutal, or unrelenting perhaps, and of course it's located on the Yorkshire moors. So quite a good name if the route is like that.
I thought the route had been renamed Big Vern, at least at some point.
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