UKC

By my reckoning these crags are all in the South Yorkshire Tier 3 area:

Wharncliffe

Agden Rocher

Rivelin

Burbage Valley

Higgar Tor

Millstone Edge

Not forgetting Stannington Ruffs of course, and various other minor crags.

From High Neb northwards the boundary runs along the top of Stanage, but it looks like Stanage, Dovestone Tor, Bamford and Lawrencefield are not in South Yorkshire.

Happy to be corrected if anyone has more detailed knowledge.

My understanding is that people within that that area would be allowed to climb at those venues, providing it’s not with people outside of their household or support bubble.  And that it’s not in a group of more than six people, or as part of an organised team event.

I also read that the guidance is not to travel from outside the area unnecessarily.

I did wonder about travelling from a Tier 2 area, through a Tier 3 area to climb in another Tier 2 area...

As I understand it, the Peak District National Park being a Park means you can still climb with people outside your household/bubble as long as you stay 2 metres apart where possible (which is possible with trad except briefly during top-outs -- though it is also easy to get lazy about this).

And people are advised to minimize public transport use and car-sharing, obviously enough.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/local-covid-alert-level-very-high

"You may continue to see friends and family you do not live with (or have formed a support bubble with) in groups of 6 or less in certain outdoor public spaces, such as:

parks, beaches, countryside, forests

public gardens (whether or not you pay to enter them), allotments

outdoor sports courts and facilities, and playgrounds"

You might have overlooked the first sentence in the "Travel "section which seems to indicate that only work and education are real justifications for travelling.

"Not recommended" is not the same as "illegal". I think the crap weather at this time of year will stop more folk going to Stanage than anything else.

No, it reads:

"You may continue to travel to venues or amenities which are open, for work, or to access education, within a very high alert level area, but you should and aim to reduce the number of journeys you make."

You are allowed to travel to venues or amenities which are open, and also to travel for work or to access education.

If it only meant "You may continue to travel for work or to access education" etc., there would be no need for the bit about venues and amenities.

Also at no point does it say "You should only travel for work or education", or even "we are advising people to travel only for work or education" -- just to aim to reduce the number of journeys overall.

That seems to be fine -- in the section where it advises against travelling in or out of a Tier 3 area, it says:

"You may also do so where necessary as part of a longer journey – such as when a journey between lower risk areas passes through a very high alert level area"

I was under the impression that the Burbage Valley and Higgar Tor were in Derbyshire. Isn't the boundary just back from the top of Burbage North/South and over to the Cattle Grid on Ringing low Road.

I may be wrong lol

It looks like it goes wnw from there to Stanedge pole, but also down the road to Burbage bridge and the road past higgar, then below millstone and back up the a628 to fox house.

No, the OP is right.  The boundary follows the Ringinglow Rd around Burbage, cuts off the corner a bit below Millstone, then follows the road back around the corner at Surprise View and on round to Fox House.  So the Burbage crags, Higgar, Millstone, Over Owler Tor and Mother Cap are all in South Yorks, but Lawrencefield is in Derbyshire.

The Peak District seems to be composed of different tiers so travel to certain parts of it are advised against if you are from a tier 3 area. 

Yep, you potentially still have the problem of travel out of or into Tier 3 areas being advised against (though not illegal).

Which is why everyone is trying to figure out exactly where the boundary between South Yorkshire and Derbyshire runs ...

However, climbing with people outside your household/bubble is not in itself banned in the Peak, as long as you socially-distance as much as possible.

Nice one. Shame the snowplough turns round before Burbage Parking in Winter. He's not doing his full job lol

I'm getting a sense of deja vu with some of this  ........."Well, if it's not actually illegal, why should i stop doing it?",

Almost as if we have learnt absolutely nothing over the last nine months.

I think we've learnt something, something quite important, specifically this:

It is likely that this situation will go on for quite a lot longer, possibly even into 2022 or longer.  Pandemics in history have tended to last about 2 years.  Therefore, stopping doing everything and staying at home is non-viable; rather, we need to find ways to do things we enjoy that still minimises spread, because mental health is important.

Call it "new normal" if you like.  But "stay at home" works for a few weeks or a couple of months, it doesn't work for over a year.  And I don't think anywhere is going to go down the tiers until the whole thing is over.

I think picking over details of boundary locations and the technical wording of the law (and also the 'advice') is mostly to help people figure out if they're going to get hassle from the police. Whether you climb at Higgar Tor, High Neb or Froggatt is not going to make much difference to the spread of Covid. Being outdoors and keeping distance between people makes the risk of transmission vanishingly small compared to many other activities which are carrying on more or less as normal* (e.g. schools, supermarkets, restaurants(!) etc). It helps to keep a sense of perspective - we need to get used to this for a long time to come.

*the new normal, I should say

I think the mental health argument is a symptom  of our entitlement, much as I hate that word and its overuse,

Generations of people in our country and billions of people throughout the world  have survived without any appreciable form of holiday or leisure activity for years and years without any particular decline in their mental health, but now we have people fearing that being deprived of the crag/mountain environment for  few months or even a year is going to drive them mad. We ought to take a look around the rest of the world and consider the lives of others for whom the concepts of holiday, leisure and even exercise are and will always be completely alien.

I got caught in London by lockdown, and as a result I spent four months living in a very small building completely on my own, during which time my social interactions (all socially-distanced and outdoors, once that was permitted) could be counted on the fingers of one hand.

So if you want to imply that I'm coming from a position of being reckless or unwilling to inconvenience myself for the sake of public safety, I would like to politely request that you think again.

I am following current regulations, and, within that, basing my personal decisions on my knowledge of current scientific consensus re: relative risk.

Which indicates that sitting down indoors at a restaurant to eat a "substantial meal" (which is not even "advised against" in Tier 3) is a damn sight riskier than potentially travelling from a few metres on one side of the South Yorkshire-Derbyshire county boundary to a few metres on the other side in order to engage in some socially-distanced trad.

I think what we should have learned by this point is that our government's decisions have progressively less and less connection to the actual science.

How much difference in Covid spread is there, between staying at home all the time and only going out for essentials, vs going climbing outdoors in a sensible way? Yes, of course there is slightly more risk in the latter, but it's insignficant compared many other activities. Trying to enforce absolutism is unsustainable with little benefit over a more common sense approach.

Good point.  I guess the road itself changes hands from Sheffield CC to Derbyshire CC there - nothing for it then, if you're coming from Sheffield you'll just have to park up near Lady Cannings somewhere and walk in across the moor from there.  Likewise Derbyshire climbers visiting Lawrencefield can't use the Surprise View car park, that's clearly in S Yorks.  Which seems a bit of a waste in a way, because South Yorkshire climbers coming to Millstone from Sheffield can't drive on the road beyond Toad's Mouth to get there.

Derbyshire climbers can drive in from the Hathersage end to use the parking at Burbage North if they want to visit the Cowper Stone.  As long as they don't use the bit of the big car park at Fiddler's Elbow that is in South Yorkshire.  (The boundary follows the line of the old road - the bit that is now the 100m or so rough stretch of byway that cuts off the corner there.)

Hope that's all cleared up now.

Is that a fact? Perhaps the mental state of previous generations was in fact poorer but wasn't treated as well as it is now. Its a sign of progress that We take mental health so seriously now.

Edit:spelling

Do you actually take pleasure in the idea that people should become hermits for a couple of years?

I don't.  We need to find a "new normal" that allows us to do as much as possible while keeping R<1.  That or have a couple of months of proper lockdown to get rid of it.  I'm not up for another year of sitting on my backside, I'm afraid; if you want that go ahead.

I imagine the police on both sides of the county border have more than enough to be getting on with enforcing rules that are actually enforceable.  I may be wrong, but I don't think we're going to see the Derbyshire force making tits of themselves trying to shame people with their drone again.  Not this side of another national lockdown anyway.

Of course, but I guess most folk like to stay within the law. Maybe they just want to keep on the right side of the moral police too. Not sure why else there is so much discussion about smallest technicalities - surely people don't believe it'll make any difference to the actual risk of spreading?

I'd rather be out and about myself. I suppose I'm luckier than many in that I live in a semi-rural area with lots of footpaths so I'l never be short of a walk even under Tier 3 conditions. But I don't feel that my walking has to involve a twenty mile drive to the Peak District and I'm pretty sure that many people apart from the most claustrophobic flat dwellers could adapt their exercise regime to be more local.

After all, it's not the lack of climbing that's going to send people round the twist , is it, just the lack of open air and exercise. Or is climbing a special case?

Given the historical prevalence of child abuse and alcoholism etc it is pretty clear that the old days were far worse, let's not go back.

It doesn't have to be the "old days". 

The world is full of people who would wonder what we are wringing our hands about, whose real problems are more to do with life and death than a temporary set of limitations on our exercise regime.

A set that seem to exist in your imagination, at present at least.

Absolutely.  Of course they do.  As far as my own leisure activities go, I haven't worked out yet exactly how I'm going to follow the 'advice' that I shouldn't be crossing the arbitrary line between S Yorks and Derbyshire while I'm out on my own getting a bit of fresh air and some exercise.  I want to do what's right, personally I'm less concerned with what's 'legal'.

Perhaps if the members of our government had shown any sign at all that they regard the rules as applying to them as much as the rest of us..

In my case, in this thread, it's just a kind of gallows humour really.  It's been a dark and dismal day and the cabin fever is biting a bit.

Or you could just go to an Eastern Grit crag of your choice? How is going to Stanage different to going to Higgar in terms of viral spread?

Bully for you, climbing is a coping technique for some people. It was for me until last year when I started to get my life sorted out.

I think we have learned that certain activities are high risk whereas others are low risk. It is good that the T3 restrictions seem to recognise that outdoor activities are low risk.

I’m T2 and my main Covid related issue is managing my parents’ expectations as to when I will next visit as I’m not supposed to and rightly so. I would have no issues with travelling for climbing though, even if I were T3, because it really doesn’t matter whether you drive 10 miles or 100 miles for something like climbing. A much bigger issue is who you are climbing with.

Having said that, if there were a Welsh style general lockdown, I would support it. We’ll probably need it soon anyway (well, we already do!). Again, travelling for climbing is going to be low risk but I’d be ok with missing out on a few weekends in the spirit of solidarity with everyone else. Weather is crap anyway.

"Local" is irrelevant now, as far as this thread is concerned.  Nobody is talking about how 'local' you are.

According to the advice now it's all about the border between a tier x area and a tier x+1 area.  So if you live on the other side of Barnsley it's fine to drive 25 miles to get to Burbage, but if you live in Norton* it's not ok to cross from one side of the ring-road to the other while you take the dog for a walk.

Edit:
Sorry, that was horribly Sheffield-centric of me.  For the benefit of anyone who doesn't know, Norton is a suburb of Sheffield on the SE side of the city just inside the city's outer ring road which is also the district boundary.  North East Derbyshire is literally across the road from there.

I'm not sure which set is imaginary: the  number of climbers who feel they will go doolally if deprived of crag access temporarily, or the billiion or so people who have never in their lifetime had access to clean and safe  drinking water and will probably never have it.

Forget climbing for a moment -- are you literally claiming that people don't suffer if they don't get any time off work or any activities they get to do for pleasure?

Because I think generations of workers' rights activists would disagree with you there.

No, I'm saying that in a broad enough picture, leisure activities are only a small section of the pie and that to people who live in a situation of perpetual poverty and want, discussion about whether it's technically allowable to travel to crag x for a day's  exercise must be the absolute epitome of a first world problem.

We don't live in the past, nor will comparisons to 'the war' or any other hardship help anyone genuinely struggling today. We are where we are, and for the younger ones of us certainly, are going through this through no fault of their own with no previous experience to go from. It has been hard, a large section of the population will be suffering something on this scale for their first time ever, and it is unfair to go down the 'back in my day' route. Everyone has sacrificed so much already, whether it's time, family, money or recreation and no one should be stopped from gleaning what little pleasure they can, where they can do so safely. 

So a hinderance to our lives doesn't matter because somebody always has it worse? odd way of thinking! by pure luck, we all live in a country that allows us these benefits.

I wasn't actually in the war, MrPhillip, I never knew rationing and I, too, am going through this with no previous experience of a global pandemic. And I, too, consider that I am going through this through no fault of my own, just like the younger people you mention 

But I will say for the second time on this thread that there are plenty of valid comparisons to be made with real people suffering real hardships in this world, even as we speak now, in 2020.

The hardships of lockdown at its worst are trivial when compared to the suffering of billions of people all over our planet who contend with starvation and real misery every day of their lives, not just the deprivation of their favourite hobby for a few months. It really is time we developed a sense of world perspective.

Yes, you've got it in one. By pure luck. Something to be grateful for, whatever hindrances are thrown in our way.

Unless you've lived or seen the suffering, then it's hard to appreciate, certainly if you're facing losing the roof over your own head, or wondering where your next meal is coming from. I know billions have it harder than me, but that doesn't make my own mental difficulties vanish.. it only serves to exacerbate them, if anything. 

Yes, the comparisons are valid for an internet chat forum where we can discuss ideology.. but they don't translate well in to the real world, sorry. 

Tier 3 sounds like lockdown lite to me. By way of comparison, Melbourne with a population of 5m, went (back) into full lockdown in August when cases got to 700 per day. This meant, curfew from 8pm to 5am, only leaving the house for essential activities (shopping, work & exercise) within a 5km radius, takeaway only, hairdressers & gyms closed, border closure etc. Cases are now under 10 per day and heading toward the rolling 7 day average of 5 to allow further easing of restrictions. I think we know what works.

well what else do you put down to being born in the uk?

Seconded.

However, while we don't have a full lockdown, me trying to carry out some sort of single-handed personal lockdown and barricading myself in my flat for the foreseeable future (rather than merely leading a lifestyle which is already much more restricted and cautious than that of most people I know) is going to have f*ck-all effect on local virus transmission rates.

Totally understandable. But with regard to your final point,  have you ever met a person who concedes  that what they are doing might have an effect on local virus transmission rates. ?

 I haven't .And yet we're going up to Tier 3 on Saturday.

What relevance does world poverty have to this situation? You seem to be arguing that because suffering exists in the world we should all choose to deny ourselves the things which make us happy. That's a fine ethical stance that has been taken by monks and other hermits for thousands of years but unfortunately has nothing whatsoever to do with epidemiology. If you want to go and join a monastery as a personal spiritual protest against evil in the world go right ahead, but don't expect other people to do the same, and don't expect it to have any impact on the transmission of the virus.

Self-denial for the sake of it will not beat covid. Measures targeted at reducing social interaction will keep it under control, as long as the general population stick to them. Stop trying to shame people for doing something they enjoy which is both permitted by the rules and extremely low risk.

I'm not trying to shame anyone, just trying to put things into perspective especially for those who think that a few months without your favourite form of exercise will lead to insanity or similar. 
I hope you are right about the general population sticking to the measures and that we don't end up with the situation described by Morgan W.

Tom, you can make all the arguments you like. I'm going to keep going climbing if it's allowed. Enjoy your next few months!

Okay, I'll bite:

What "not actually illegal" activities in this thread do you think people should stop doing? What are you judging people so severely over?

Climbing at Lawrencefield rather than Millstone (or vice versa, depending on which side of the boundary you start on)? 

Climbing outdoors at all? Climbing with people not in your household/bubble? Travelling, not via public transport, in order to climb? (I would note that all of these are not only legal, but not even "advised against".)

Going for walks outside? Leaving your house?

What is it you actually want people to stop doing? Because at the moment you're just shaking your head and implying that This Sort Of Thing is why Sheffield's heading up to Tier 3.

Apologies to my good friend Cragtyke for hi jacking what should have been basically a topographical thread. I hope you all continue to enjoy your climbing throughout the next few months and that in the event of a stricter lockdown, no one suffers genuine hardship by having access to the hills taken away from them.

If you want to self-flagellate simply because of the existence of people less fortunate than you, feel free, I won't.  More is gained by donating, fundraising etc to provide support.

I've already apologised for taking the thread off in the wrong direction .

But not for possibly the most egregious (and sanctimonious) attack of 'whataboutery' ever seen on this forum.  A staggering achievement really, it sets a very high bar.

In years to come people will come on this climbing forum to complain about some little thing to do with, y'know, climbing.  Someone else will accuse them of whingeing about 'first world problems', and in response to the counter-accusation of whataboutery they'll be able to say "How dare you accuse me of whataboutery, have you even seen Tom V's comments in the Tier 3 Gritstone thread of 2020!?"

Now off you pop and sell all your climbing gear to donate the money to Water Aid, or we'll all know you're just a selfish first-world hypocrite like the rest of us.

Edit to add:

(In case that helps at all.)

I just wanted people to get a bit of perspective in their lives where hardship is concerned. I still don't see that as a bad thing.

I don't recall accusing anyone of hypocrisy.

Now you mention it, I held a sale of climbing books at the Surprise car park about ten years ago , advertised it on here and gave the proceeds to the RNIB. 

Happy to do the same again, this time proceeds to Red Cross., as long as it's not perceived as being sanctimonious on my part.

Just checked, only a dozen or so but ranging from a very nice 1935 Pillar up to a mint 2002 Meirionnydd.