UKC

/ Tito Traversa - conviction.

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Bogwalloper - on 17 May 2018

Having a young son who climbs this story still breaks my heart.

http://eveningsends.com/climbing-instructor-sentenced-in-tito-traversas-death/

Thankfully I've never been in any situation like this but I like to think that if it was my family involved I wouldn't want anyone to go to prison for it - especially the woman concerned.

W

1
Dell on 17 May 2018
In reply to Bogwalloper:

What a bizarre case. The convicted woman has been described as an ''unofficial climbing instructor"   which leaves some confusion. 

Also the bit about 'assembling quickdraws' does anyone else buy their quickdraws in kit form? 

And if the kid was such a good climber, then he must have some experience, how is it that he didn't notice all he draws were wrong? 

Bizarre. 

 

 

1
Ron Rees Davies - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Bogwalloper:

They aren't likely to be going to prison. It's the Italian equivalent of a 2 year suspended sentence when the prosecution wanted a full 4 year term. 

MischaHY - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Dell:

> What a bizarre case. The convicted woman has been described as an ''unofficial climbing instructor"   which leaves some confusion. 

She was the one with the duty of care in the situation. 

> Also the bit about 'assembling quickdraws' does anyone else buy their quickdraws in kit form? 

Italians, apparently... 

> And if the kid was such a good climber, then he must have some experience, how is it that he didn't notice all he draws were wrong? 

He was 12 years old and warming up on a 6a having previously redpointed 8b+. I think we can forgive him for not checking his draws. 

> Bizarre. 

Not really, just tragic and shit for everyone involved. 

2
r0x0r.wolfo - on 17 May 2018
In reply to MischaHY:

8 out of 10 draws failed. Who assembled them? 

6
Chris Craggs - on 17 May 2018
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

A mother of one of the other children - did you read the article?

 

Chris

Oceanrower - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Dell:

> Also the bit about 'assembling quickdraws' does anyone else buy their quickdraws in kit form? 

Yep. Just put about 400 together for a wall. Maillon one end, new dogbone and snapgate the other.

paul__in_sheffield - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Dell:

> Also the bit about 'assembling quickdraws' does anyone else buy their quickdraws in kit form? 

Hiya, yes in short.

When I migrated to the dark side of sport climbing, I bought some dogbones and assembled sport draws out of my existing carabiners. I now use a full set of DMM Alpha Sport quickdraws, but the dogbones are DMM and Edelrid as I have replaced some the originals as they've got abraded. The rubber retainers are different designs depending on manufacturer and like every piece of PPE need full attention when assembling.

I can't imagine the horror that woman must have experienced no matter where the blame lies.

Paul

 

ianstevens - on 17 May 2018
In reply to MischaHY:

> She was the one with the duty of care in the situation. 

And important to note that in Italian law that leaves you wide open to a prison sentence. Off the top of my head I'm sure there was a case a few (10?) years back where a group of seismologists were charged with manslaughter for not predicting an earthquake which subsequently killed people - but in that instance they were ultimately cleared.

Red Rover - on 17 May 2018
In reply to ianstevens:

That case was bizzare! There is no way of predicting earthquakes. One person did predict that earthquake though, which led to the seismologists being imprisoned because they didn't see it coming, when apparently somebody else did. However, the guy who predicted it was talking bollocks, he would predict an earthquake constantly so of course he would be 'correct' when one happened to occur. 

Chris Craggs - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Red Rover:

> That case was bizzare! There is no way of predicting earthquakes. One person did predict that earthquake though, which led to the seismologists being imprisoned because they didn't see it coming, when apparently somebody else did. However, the guy who predicted it was talking bollocks, he would predict an earthquake constantly so of course he would be 'correct' when one happened to occur. 


My memory of it is slightly different - the seismologists said there wouldn't be an earthquake, hence the prosecution,

Chris

ianstevens - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I don't think they went to jail in the end?

That's my point though really - a very different legal system in Italy. 

gethin_allen on 17 May 2018
In reply to Bogwalloper:

Lots of things about this case just don't sit right with me.

I just can't believe that anyone would be stupid enough (climber or non-climber) to connect up quickdraws with only a small bit of rubber taking the load. A quick tug on the draw would surely demonstrate that they aren't load bearing.

And how come some of the draws were correct and others not? surely if you do one correctly you do the lot correctly and it's really very easy to distinguish the good from the bad.

2
tom_in_edinburgh - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Dell:

> What a bizarre case. The convicted woman has been described as an ''unofficial climbing instructor"   which leaves some confusion. 

I read it as an un-named female parent mis-assembled the quickdraws but the male climbing instructor who was with the party got prosecuted, presumably for not checking them.  'Nicola' would be a male name in Italy.

 

MeMeMe - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Bogwalloper:

I don't think it was your intention with this thread (quite the opposite) but the ill informed speculation in this thread about the circumstances of this poor kid's death is in really bad taste.

25
jon on 17 May 2018
In reply to MeMeMe:

No. It was 5 years ago. There's been a court case in which someone has been deemed to be responsible. This is exactly the time to discuss it. Inevitably there will be speculation and that can only really be cleared up by discussion.

Dell on 17 May 2018
In reply to All:

Ok, the 'draws question maybe wasn't supposed to be rhetorical, we've all done it, but this instance is a situation where I wouldn't expect it to be done. A 'non-climbing mum' assembling quickdraws at a sport crag? Most unusual. 


An instructor who isn't an 'official' instructor? Although the article doesn't give a definition of what is classed as official, perhaps under Italian rules, he was only qualified for indoor walls? 

No one noticing the problem with the quickdraws? Neither the 'instructor' or the prodigy climber?  The kid had been climbing for several years and would have been familiar with the equipment. 

None of these oversights by themselves would be classed as bizarre, but put them all together and you get a bizarre series of events that lead to the death of a climber. 

MeMeMe - on 17 May 2018
In reply to jon:

I'm not against discussion, just ill-informed speculation (which this thread _mostly_ isn't).

Just a plea to keep it tasteful even if it was some time ago.

9
jon on 17 May 2018
In reply to MeMeMe:

Fair enough. I just thought you might be heading down the 'this isn't the time or place' road (when clearly it now is) - but reading it again you weren't

Deadeye - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Bogwalloper:

It's important to understand that their system of law doesn't allow the concept of "accident". Someone is *always* responsible. In this case the options will have included any adult including parents that aren't there, vendors of product, etc - very wide.

they have concluded that the most experienced person is responsible. They will then look at aggravating and mitigating factors. Hence a likely suspended sentence.

mal_meech on 17 May 2018
Misha - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Dell:

There was a UKC / DMM (?) video a while back demonstrating how slingdraws could be misassembled if you use rubber bands to secure the biners in place. It’s easy to miss that they’ve been misassembled and it’s also possible for them to get into the unsafe position just by getting tangled up in a bag. Which is why rubber bands shouldn’t be used and I think most (all?) manufacturers now use a three sided rubber collar thing.  

Dell on 17 May 2018
In reply to Misha:

I never go climbing without my 'underpants'. 

deepsoup - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Misha:

The video attached to this news story from the time might be the one you mean: https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2013/07/tito_traversa_accident_-_quickdraw_information-68201

Edit to add:  D'Oh!  This link was already posted just up there^^.   Ah well, bears repeating I suppose..

Post edited at 19:28
taddersandbadger - on 17 May 2018
In reply to Bogwalloper:

Is it just me or is the picture on of the 2 QD’s on the right hand side in  the article quoted  really not helpful.

The first one shows the “bad” configuration on the “bolt” / straight gate side and the second one suggests a “solution” of adding an extra bar tack which would effectively cage or restrict the snap gate that was being clipped to the the bolt from being able to move about,  making the QD  “fixed” at both ends which in MHO is a bad idea.

I will now retreat back into my OCD world......


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