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tony kurz

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bamboorodmaker 25 Dec 2017
Hi guys I am new, well old like 70, mmmmm., SO I AM OLD SCHOOL!!!! I have never climbed apart from some quarry walls when I was 10-15 years old. scarry!!

I just had to post a topic here as I have read loads of comments re the 4 climbers who died on the N Face.

Really sad. Brave guys.

I see many posts here and lots of not so nice comments to other users re these 4 guys ESPECIALLY Tony Kurz and his dreadful ordeal hanging there in the cold by himself to die. (come back to"BY Himself" in a moment).

We all can see that any contributions, with or without qualifications, to preventing a similar death to anybody should be welcomed in the spirit that they are given. Albeit silly or seemingly non -sensicle by all you experienced climbers and should not castigate others for their lack of knowledge in a derogatory way,

Who knows., it might be a bullfighter who come up with the best result!!

I have read a load about the Kurz situation and this is how I see it.., for what its worth.., Its rarely one mistake that disasters occur, but a series of mistakes/errors/circumstances that result in deaths of various kinds Look at TITANIC!!

The 4 are all dead and nothing is going to change that.
I would like to think that Tony Kurz would have wanted the climbing fraternity to learn something from their deaths!!
So that is the real challenge we all face. Climbers and non climbers.

May I ask regardless of my climbing knowledge. which is NIL, that "Is it possible to hang there for the length of time Kurz did and would it still be possible to use Prussiks to get past the knot?" NOT that he could have, being half dead, but is "POSSIBLE" for a full live person to do that if you get my meaning??

The gear he had then brings it to.......................................,if

Its always IF IF IF, So IF the question above is affirmative then what is the lesson guys??? and if not then??


If anybody is so convinced its possible (any that happen to be dogmatic) about it. Then go and hang there and do the experiment, then the question would be proved. but only after going thru what he did first as a final answer.


No disrespect is meant to anybody what so ever by this question. Just lets get down to prevention.

Wish I was younger then may be.., but I am not.

I cannot believe that he could not be rescued.

By himself.., why did he have to be like that. Smeone should have stayed with him trying to scream out " I am here Tony" "Youre not alone"

Makes me cry every time I read about it.

Its and age old question but by now it should have been answered.

Please have a real good climb for me cos I cant.

Kindest regards to every one of you.

Chris R Willis of Yorkshire UK












4
 bouldery bits 25 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

Interesting post.

Merry Christmas.
1
 Michael Gordon 25 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

The main specific thing which other climbers learned as a result of that incident I thought was not to abseil that way in a forced retreat. Not sure there was anything else really.
Deadeye 25 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

Mate. Head out of your front door and knock on the next one and say hello.
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In reply to bamboorodmaker:

I think any climber, indeed, any human, cannot fail to be moved by the story.

But you maybe need to read some other reports; many attempts were made to save him, but he was just out of reach. There was simply no way for the rescuers to get to him in time, in appalling conditions.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toni_Kurz

I have read discussions of the tragedy here and elsewhere, but I don't recall anyone being unduly critical; there have been theoretical discussions about how Kurz might have rescued himself, if he'd had suitable equipment (e.g. Prusik loops, invented just five years earlier), but I don't think I've seen anything other than sadness expressed at his death.

Did you get Simpson's "The Beckoning Silence" for Christmas, by any chance...?
 Pedro50 25 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

>Really sad. Brave guys.<

Are you Donald Trump?
11
 alx 25 Dec 2017
In reply to Pedro50:

It’s Mike Pence and this is a cry for help.


Guess Grindr is down or something
7
bamboorodmaker 25 Dec 2017
In reply to Pedro50:

mate that's just typical of what I just said you got real bad manners son.
bamboorodmaker 25 Dec 2017
In reply to alx:

when will you learn some manners here. instead of sarcasm
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bamboorodmaker 25 Dec 2017
In reply to captain paranoia:

Thank you Capt I will have a look at that

regards

chris
1
 Pedro50 25 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

> H! I have never climbed apart from some quarry walls when I was 10-15 years old. scarry!!

Hand jamming can be tricky for the first few years.

1
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

Well, it's a bit strange to register with a climbing website on Christmas day, as a non-climber, to talk about an event that occurred over 80 years ago...

So I'm guessing that some people are a little suspicious of your motives...
 alx 25 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

> when will you learn some manners here. instead of sarcasm

Newbie registration.
No profile.
Strange use of capitals.
Replacement of letters for numbers when not needed.
Unusual pick of first topic.
Unusual word salad structure and phrases typical for a famous wotsit covered in fluff.


Welcome, welcome and thrice welcome!

1
 Mark Collins 25 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

Although I have encountered the story many times in text and film, overall I have found it too sad to dwell on. It seems to me that the party put their all into escaping from the situation they found themselves in, desperately attempting to retreat from an unclimbed face that some described as unjustifiable. As for self rescue, I think it important that all climbers should know how to pass a knot but as you say this was the culmination of their efforts after days of toil and loss, not an isolated situation. I think the rescuers did what they could, in difficult circumstances. You might be interested to know that there is an interview with one of them in Leo Dickinson's film, Eiger Solo.
 Pedro50 25 Dec 2017
unusual word salad structure and phrases typical for a famous wotsit covered in fluff.

Salad?
 alx 25 Dec 2017
In reply to Pedro50:

Engooglify to reveal
 stp 25 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

Sorry to say but internet bullies tend to prey on the weak and so as a new member and a non climber you're an easy target. Bear in mind though such actions say far more about them than they do about you.

Regarding the prussiking question, yes it's be possible for a person to use prussik loops to get past a knot, assuming they have the prussik loops to begin with, plus slings and assuming their fingers aren't so cold that they can still use their hands to attach them.
4
 Trangia 26 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:
As you say yourself, it's always IF.....

It was very sad and harrowing for all involved, but climbing is a dangerous sport, and the history of climbing tragedies is full of IFs. By all means learn from them, but it's not healthy to dwell morbidly on them..

As someone has said the main lesson learnt from that Eiger tragedy was not to strip the Hinterstoisser traverse of an escape rope.
Post edited at 08:28
 Michael Gordon 26 Dec 2017
In reply to Trangia:

>
> As someone has said the main lesson learnt from that Eiger tragedy was not to strip the Hinterstoisser traverse of an escape rope.

The cruel irony is that I'm not sure that reversing that traverse is even necessary. In my understanding, climbers retreating since then have abseiled from higher up, straight to the other side of the traverse (but of course, this wouldn't have been known beforehand)?
 Goucho 26 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

Even though this post has got 'bridge dweller' written all over it, on the off chance it is genuine, here are some observations.

Firstly, in over 45 years as a climber, and someone with a personal history with the face, I have never heard any climber air any criticism of Kurz and the tragic events of 36'.

The sentiment has always been one sadness and respect for such courage and bravery. True, the mainstream European media of the time were critical, and post this event, the Swis authorities banned any further attempts on the face - although this ban lasted barely a year.

Regarding whether or not Kurz could have been saved either by his own actions, or those of his rescuers, has been pondered many times, but the overwhelming consensus seems to be that everything that could have been done, was, and that it was an impossible situation.

The fact that Kurz survived as long as he did, is testimony to the man's astonishing courage, strength of character, skill and will to survive - try splicing the strands of a rope together with two hands in the warm surroundings of your kitchen, then imagine trying to do it with just one frostbitten hand after 5 days surviving a horrendous Eiger storm, the deaths of your companions and a night hanging on the end of a rope all alone in in sub zero temperatures where your whole body is wracked with pain and you are barely alive?

Any other mere mortal would have already died.

The thing people need to realise regarding the 'junction knot' issue, is that Kurz only had one functioning hand and arm, his other was frozen solid and dead after he lost a mitten two days earlier. And the hand that was still functioning was badly frostbitten, not to mention that after surviving so many days, he was almost dead.

So even if he had a prussic loop, he'd have had to somehow find a way of attatching it to a rope sheathed in ice, clipping into it, then take his weight to unclip from the ab rope, then clipping back into the ab rope - all with one frostbitten hand?

I suppose he could have avoided the junction knot problem by not using a krab on the ab rope, and just wrapping it round one of his legs and then over his opposite shoulder, effectively using a leg break technique, but this leaves absolutely no margin for error, and given the situation and circumstances could well have been fatal.

In the end, as long as there was a slim thread of hope, he could somehow, against all the odds, and despite his awful suffering, keep going, but the 'junction knot' jamming and the thought of another horrendous night hanging on the end of the rope, must have finally ended any hope of survival for even this remarkable and unbelievably courageous man.

I hope this provides some additional perspective to your question.

However, if this is a troll, it is in extremely poor taste.

bamboorodmaker 26 Dec 2017
In reply to stp:

Thanks stp. You alone have answered my question. Kindest regards to you and all the good guys out there and I wish you all safe climbing.


To all the other guys with funny ideas, why the AGGRO? Not impressed with you one bit but I am not going to waste my time talking to you,

I will not return here. Perhaps the moderators may have something to say eh?






5
In reply to Goucho:

Very eloquently put.
 John Ww 26 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

As Hugh Grant so eloquently put it in Notting Hill - “I believe ‘goodbye’ is traditional”.

JW
4
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

I don't think you will get a better answer than gouchos.

Don't worry about the less helpful posts, i'm guessing you are quite new to internet forums. You are pretty much guaranteed to get some seemingly rude posts, but it's not always easy to know if they are intended to be rude, just badly worded, or misinterpreted by the reader.

I try to assume that it is usually not the first of the above the alternatives. I might sometimes be wrong but it enables me to continuing participating without getting too wound up.

Such is the danger of internet forums.
1
 Trangia 26 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

I've been thinking about your question as to whether it would have been possible for a fully live person to have Prussiked past the knot? As others have said the answer is theoretically yes. But then all that would have achieved would have been to change his position from dangling near the end of the rope to being marooned at the top of the rope.

IIRC from my previous reading of "The White Spider", his potential rescuers were still unable to reach either location, so Prussiking would have achieved nothing.

Everything that could possibly done, given the weather, the equipment then available, the difficulties encountered and Tony Kurz's physical deterioration, was done, and a tragic end was sadly inevitable.

 alx 26 Dec 2017
In reply to bamboorodmaker:

Hi Bamboo and stp,

After a while you tend to develop a set of red flags for spotting bridge dwellers. I am afraid the OP unwittingly triggered a number of these criteria (as per my earlier email).

We are for the best part a nice group of people, so happy contributing.
 Pedro50 26 Dec 2017
In reply to alx:

Yes I am not proud of my contributions yesterday, but it was Xmas evening, red wine etc. Peace.
 alx 26 Dec 2017
In reply to Pedro50:

Bigly wine

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