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Trad belay question

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 roym 22 Apr 2018

When I'm setting up belays at the top of crags I do it in the usual way - sitting on the edge, gear equalised via rope to clove hitches on big carabiner which is attached to my rope loop, carabiner with belay plate also on rope loop. If my second falls I always find that a lot of the weight is on my harness which is usually pretty uncomfortable.

Is there a way to reduce/remove the weight going onto the harness? (other than using a guide mode direct belay)

 Kemics 22 Apr 2018
In reply to roym:

I think youve answered your own question

Guide mode is the answer. 

Although a possible alternative would be to build a belay master point (above you) and then run rope through a carabiner to your second and then belay normally so if they fall you get pulled up to the bay not down. If the only limitation is you dont have a belay device with guide mode. But wouldn't really work on grit edges or somewhere where you sit down to belay 

 Si Witcher 22 Apr 2018
In reply to roym:

By definition, belaying indirectly, with the plate on your harness tie-in loop, will put all the weight through your harness. You can use a direct belay off an equalised point below the anchors without having to use a plate in guide/auto-locking mode but you need to be tied in high enough to be able to lock off the plate effectively.

4
 djwilse 22 Apr 2018
In reply to roym:

Firstly- check you and the anchors are in the direction of pull of your second, if even slightly out this may put more strain on you.

An option would be to tie a small isolation loop just in front of your fig 8 tie in loop (overhand is fine), then use this as your central point for clove hitches and belay device. You need to be sure you can still operate your plate effectively and it's not ideal for any hanging stances but it could remove some strain.

Post edited at 15:30
 tehmarks 22 Apr 2018
In reply to roym:

Using an isolation loop as mentioned above should get rid of the load from your harness, and also has the advantage that if you need to ecape the system you can simply untie.

The idea is you tie something like an alpine butterfly in the rope just in front of your own tie-in knot, and then build the belay as you usually would, but to this loop rather than to your rope loop or belay loop. You then attach the belay device to this too, et voila.

OP roym 22 Apr 2018
In reply to Kemics:

I usually am a grit crags in Yorkshire and the Peaks so you pretty much have to always sit down! I do love guide mode when you can build an anchor higher up.

OP roym 22 Apr 2018
In reply to djwilse:

An isolation loop sound like a very good option! Thanks for the advice

 GrahamD 23 Apr 2018
In reply to roym:

Climb with thinner people 

Seriously, the amount of load you fell will depend on exactly how you have routed and tensioned the belay rope and on your sitting position.  The bigger the change of rope angle between the belay stands and the live rope the more load is transferred to you.

1
 maxsmith 23 Apr 2018
In reply to djwilse:

If you are belaying from your rope loop you should not feel much of the load from a falling second. This assumes several things: firstly that your rope loop, the climber and anchor are in pretty much a perfect line. (imagine yourself almost sitting off to one side). Secondly, that you (your rope loop) is fully tensioning the anchor before any fall takes place. Belay device should be clipped on the 'climber side' of the rope loop, clove hitch crab on the 'anchor side'.  

 jkarran 23 Apr 2018
In reply to roym:

Bring the belay together near the edge to a 'powerpoint' forming 2 or more loops, connect yourself to one loop and the belay plate to the other (can be conventionally set-up or guide mode). The two loops provide some isolation between you and the loads imposed by the second. Alternative set-ups achieve similar results, you basically want some or total independence from the second's load path to the anchors while remaining securely attached to them yourself and constrained so you can't fall over the edge.

Unless you're belaying someone working something hard (do it from the floor if you can) or where they may fall into space then need half an hour to self rescue it's not really worth much effort, I generally just put up with the occasional discomfort.

jk

 rgold 25 Apr 2018
In reply to roym:

> When I'm setting up belays at the top of crags I do it in the usual way - sitting on the edge, gear equalised via rope to clove hitches on big carabiner which is attached to my rope loop, carabiner with belay plate also on rope loop. If my second falls I always find that a lot of the weight is on my harness which is usually pretty uncomfortable.

> Is there a way to reduce/remove the weight going onto the harness? (other than using a guide mode direct belay)

I do this all the time and never have any problem with harness loads.  I think the trick is to properly tension the tie-in line so that even after stretching, the rope loop doesn't really pull on the harness.  I don't find this requires and fiddling at all; I get the strand to the first piece tensioned correctly right away and then set up the rest of the anchor accordingly.

The isolation loop is good for guide belays and facilitates belay escape. To use it with a harness belay, the isolation loop has to be tied very close to the rope tie-in loop, otherwise it will be awkward to manage the belay plate.

 

 

OP roym 25 Apr 2018
In reply to GrahamD:

I think most of the problem is probably from having the anchor off line to the load. I'll put more thought into it but sometimes it's pretty hard to find anything on top of a grit crag!

OP roym 25 Apr 2018
In reply to jkarran:

I had thought about this but I agree it seems at bit too much faff.

 Howard J 25 Apr 2018
In reply to roym:

One of the advantages of belaying from the harness is that even when sitting down you can use leg and body strength when your second needs as bit of a tug, rather than having to rely on arm strength or setting up a haul system.

 GrahamD 25 Apr 2018
In reply to roym:

At least on grit you get the option to lower the second back to the ground if there is too much prevarication going on.

 jkarran 25 Apr 2018
In reply to roym:

Most of the time all that's required to achieve better isolation is choosing a slightly different belay set-up or carefully positioning a knot, it's rarely any extra work, it just requires a bit of thought and organisation. For example, making your tie in loop a few inches longer and pre-tensioning the belay does a pretty good job especially with higher anchor selections. No additional work needed but some planning required.

jk


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