UKC

Climbing recently at Trowbarrow many of the Ash Trees are in poor health or dead , 

Die back ? 

Anyway there you have it . 

That's a shame. It's owned by the council, but I'm not sure how proactive they are at checking/managing this, given budgetary pressure, etc.  There used to be a part-time warden.

It's going to become more of an issue as time goes on given that most of the anchors are ash trees that were already on the thin side of bomber. Noticed that all the trees at Farleton had all died a couple of years back too.

If the council own the land they will have a duty of care so probably worth reporting diseased trees to them 

https://www.lancashire.gov.uk/council/strategies-policies-plans/environment... 

Chap in the video looks like he may have a bit of dieback

When I was down last there were a couple of forestry guys felling the tress past the red wall section and up to the end where the scramble down is. Not sure if those particular trees were infected but at least they are proactive in managing the place.

Judging by the  number of ash trees being selectively felled in the Silverdale & Arnside AONB the area is clearly thoroughly infected with this awful disease.

Plant loads more for anchors/abseiling at the top. 20-50% will grow naturally resistant even if most die.

Within 5 years you have a safe belay.

DC

Think 5 years might be a bit optimistic. There are a few other species mixed in further back, some holly. Folks have to be able to tell the difference though don't they? Or at least to identify and avoid the ash. I'd be scared to put a shovel (or stake) in the ground at the top of main wall out of fear the whole face falling off.

When I asked about this on here in the past I think someone said ,something along the lines of,  the BMC were aware and had a plan. Does anyone know how long a leg-thick infected ash is still actually still viable as an anchor before things start getting scary? And how that compares to their appearance of suitability...

I think the safest answer to that  is 'no'! 

I am close to 100% certain the council and Lancashire wildlife trust (who I think manages the site?) will be aware of its presences as it's been in the area for at least 5 years. Also i've seen signs of it likely management in and around trow.
I had been thinking of writing to the BMC to ask if they could get sycamore planted as its a reasonable replacement although not as favorable to the ecology (casts heavier shade reducing understory diversity). There is already sycamore at Trow.

Yes almost all the ash trees at trow have it, see for for a good ID guide of A-D:

https://www.forestresearch.gov.uk/tools-and-resources/fthr/pest-and-disease...

and here for more info in general: https://www.bspp.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Ash-dieback-report-final... 

How to know if an ash tree is safe?
This is size of tree dependent but if you wobble it and hear any cracking noises don't use it, ever. Other than that significant branch loss in the canopy is not such a good guide as root systems can still be intact but if there is bark loss on the stem or it comes off when you rub it or put a sling round it don't use it.
It is definitely time to start tying off 3 trees not 1 or 2 up there however.... trees for anchors should always be thicker than your leg.

Personally I think this could be a really great opportunity for climbers (who could volunteer to plant) to get involved in forest conservation and even if the council or wildlife trust are not keen on sycamore then the lime species (Tilia sp.) would be desirable to them as there are already significant lime populations locally e.g. roundsea.

It will take over a decade to replace what is there with reasonable anchors trees even with faster growing sycamore.
The figure of 5 years is complete nonsense.
 

Here is some open access research with some data rather than something someone has made up because it sounds good. I am currently struggling to find a reference for UK ash being 5-6% genetically resistant, but that is the figure often quoted.
https://nph.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ppp3.11

 

I would be more generous. The trees around the Lakes can put on 5-6 feet of growth each year. We are taking out firewood 5-20 years old and in very short time they are strong enough to belay on, not necessarily abb off.

Royal Forestry Society journal is equivocal about Ash resistance, large error bars but can be 20% or even 50% in some places, no doubt less in others. The main point is that resistance develops over time, just as the elms came back, loads of elms around here taken out for firewood and timber, all growing strongly.

Nature is powerful when it comes to survival of species. Would still recommend planting indigenous species esp Ash at crag tops - surprising how many survive and how quickly they become usable. Also the case that many trees are weak even when quite thick - particularly Birch in Borrowdale, viz, top of Quayfoot where they can snap in the wind.

DC

IIRC sycamores are not actually a native species, in which case it probably shouldn't be used.

Agree, also worth pointing out for us climbers, light, sun, warmth is everything.

The sun controls all. Shade brings moss, damp. Sycamore are not indigenous and they create massive shade and damp.

If we want clean rock we need no shade, no trees at crag bases, certainly not trees like sycamore. But plenty of trees at crag tops for belays and abb points.

DC

What about hazel? It is one of the most abundant trees in the area so presumably is happy growing on limestone and grows pretty quickly - widely used in coppicing in the AONB.

There is actually a full time warden for the AONB,  who visits the quarry most days. Additionally there is a volunteering party at Trowbarrow that help each week on a Tue. Management is carried out by the volunteer party. 
 

There are a vast amount of tree (and rock) belays at the top of all routes, so I can’t see this being an issue anytime soon, or ever! If it were to become a problem (unlikely), I’ll put some stakes in as I climb there most weeks. 
 

Kind regards,

Col. 

It sounds like the quarry is being kept an eye on then. I've seen a lot of management in the base of the quarry over the years but not yet above. I maintain that we could have a present and growing future issue if folks are not aware of the dieback and how to identify the un/suitable anchor trees. Yes there are a lot of trees but most of them are ash and most of them are already on the thin side. The other species are often further back and involve weaving your ropes through all the closer trees to the extent that people might not bother and assume the closer infected ash are fine. I guess I've got the top of the main wall in mind. Is the top of the crag owned by the same as the base? We cross a fence to get up/down from there...

There's been a lot going on in the world and the news recently so I wouldn't be overly surprised if people were not thinking about the dieback especially if they are not used to limestone areas and their ash trees. How many people do you know that can identify trees well, especially when not in leaf? Does anyone else think some signage and notes on effected crag pages might be a good shout? At some point I think it may even be wise to mark the unsuitable ones if they are not to be removed.

Its up to every leader to assess the quality of the top belay after climbing a pitch.

If a tree feels strong enough after a push/pull one metre off the ground, it will be twenty  times stronger tied off 50 mm off the ground.

Then use two or three.

Its only to take a seconds weight.

Yes of course it's ultimately the leader's responsibility, as it is their's to learn about the dieback and how it might affect the strength of the anchors, but unfortunately that doesn't mean they necessarily will. I'm not suggesting we wrap the whole sport up in cotton wool. I do think though that in this case where we might have a load of visually suitable anchors which are potentially deadly, that we should take more of a belt and braces approach to for-warning people though.

I think most people probably trust their visual sense enough to assess an anchor like a tree based on their previous experience and may not routinely resort to pushing and pulling it. I agree that physically testing it out is a wise idea but I just think people might not think to do that unless they are aware of the problem in the first place. You and I, and many others, are aware and will factor in the dieback in our anchor choices. Others may not, and won't. I personally don't feel like I know enough about how the dieback affects trees to say for sure but have heard tree surgeons say that the roots can become "mushy" and that they can become very brittle too. As a new threat, nobody's an expert right?

The face and tops are all SSSI so the council will presumably be liaising  with Natural England about how to manage it...preumably

My wife knows the warden and works there for the Wildlife Trust. The AONB do have responsibility for the top as well as the base of the crag. I (personally) don’t think marking ‘safe’ trees is the way to go, or needed. I agree with Ricks comment about assessing anchors being a leader’s responsibility. There are so many options above the Main Wall area that this isn’t (yet) an issue. The AONB arborist will have a look at the trees at the top of the crag sometime soon. Die-back doesn’t actually kill trees outright. 
 

I have asked to be a moderator for Trowbarrow and will implement your suggestion about putting a note about in the crag details that trees should be carefully assessed  

Kind regards,

Col. 

Sounds good Col. I think getting expert opinions on the state of the trees is a great shout. Otherwise how will we know if it has become an issue (yet) until one breaks? I guess I just don't think we should wait for an accident to act. I guess once new editions of guidebooks are published that there will be some new info and advice given to climber visiting affected crags but that could still be a few years I guess, although I guess digital guides can easily update. Given that a lot of climbers don't visit a UKC crag page prior to visiting, I still think a couple of well placed signs might not be the worst idea in the world.

I think maybe part of my concern here is that the ADB has kind of crept up on us a little while we've been distracted by the pandemic. The more widely known about the issue is, the less of a potential danger it will be.

Next comprehensive guide is due 2026 ish, I’ll hopefully have some input into that as well. 
 

I still don’t think anything specific is required on this site, but we’ll probably have to agree to disagree on that. As we’ve already discussed, thoroughly checking anchors is a leaders responsibility. If a tree is showing weakness when checked then don’t use/add others to the system. But let’s see if anything comes back once some qualified checks have been conducted. 

Col. 

I wonder Col, as a frequent local climber, what you view is on the current stability of the Main Wall itself. I've enjoyed climbing there greatly, but always rather wary of anything right of Jean Genie. It all seems to be held up by very little, and I'm aware of how it was created. I'd be a bit worried about banging stakes in at the top.

Martin

That’s a very good question. I think it’s fair to say that all quarried limestone should be treated with respect/suspicion and if you have any personal doubts then it’s best to not bother. I have climbed routes to right of Jean Jeanie and not felt that they were in danger of falling down, but I am not qualified to say whether they will or won’t in the future. Harijan, Warspite and Warspite Direct see lots of ascents. Yellow Wall is also good, but can seem imposing with Main Wall overhanging it a bit. 
 

If there were to be any movement in the wall itself, then I think (but couldn’t say for sure) that cracks would appear in the ground at top of the crag and would be fairly obvious. There would most likely be rockfall from the top right as well. If either of these things happened then staying away would be sensible. But there is no sign yet.

So I guess to answer your question, I would say climb but be prepared to make judgement calls each time you visit. Worth noting that Main Wall does have a tendency to shed small hand/footholds on the less popular routes. 
 

Hope that helps. 
 

Col. 

Thanks Col. That's helpful. Yes, I appreciate that it's personal judgement, but it's nice to know there are some regulars around who would notice and report any movement. I first climbed Jean Jeanie (is that the correct spelling - ie not following Bowie?) and Cracked Actor (then E1) in the 80's. I think I did Harijan and/or Warspite then as well. Subsequently I've been back a few times - normally saving a wet day in the Lakes - and generally done Jean Jeanie plus others off Main Wall. But I've certainly not been often enough to notice any movement in the rock, just downward movement in my ability...

Thanks again.

Martin 

The thing that convinced me that the right side of Main Wall was on the move was the sobering experience of trying to lead A Touch of Class a few years ago. I’d first led this as an early HVS in September 79 and can assure you that the vicious moves through the bulge low down bear no resemblance to the accommodating crack line I’d climbed 40 years previously.

On a related note, does anyone know of any photographs of Main Wall before it was blasted?  It must have been a superb sheet of rock which would have seen some amazing climbs had the quarry company not taken umbrage at someone bolting their way up this amazing face of crinoids.  They decided that the best way to discourage such adventurers was to destroy their playground completely, but ironically all they did was to create the numerous superb crack lines which form the classic routes of the wall.

And does anyone know the identity of the bolter (who presumably began their attempt not long after the quarry ceased production - or maybe even before…?).

Neil

This is interesting about ATOC (great route by the way). Since you mentioned it I’ve been needing to nip and look to myself. Looking at the route, if it didn’t used to be that offwidth roof crack (I’ll see if I can find some old pictures), then the only cause of it widening can have been a rock falling out. If it was due to the movement of the rock then other cracks in the immediate area (also the continuation above the offwidth) would also have needed to enlarge, and actually they’re all still narrow hand cracks. I can send you a picture if you like? The right edge block of that offwidth is actually the last block that forms the overhang. So if anything, it would have closed and narrowed if it had moved.
 

I’m not saying that there is no movement, but from what I witness and what a lot of folks say it does seem like a lot of it is passed on rumour. I guess the only way to be totally sure would be to install a sensor, like the one that was at Raven Crag prior to the big rockfall there. 
 

As I said in a previous comment, always treat quarried limestone with caution and err on the side of safety. Not really the wall to be pushing your grade. 
 

Col. 

Actually, further to this. In the ‘brick’ guidebook it states ‘ATOC, which has recently become harder owing to the loss of holds from its pod’. So rock has fallen out from the offwidth. Unfortunately both this and the subsequent 2006 guide are hand drawn topo’s rather than photos. 
 

Col. 

My understanding from talking with a previous warden is that there was significant movement at some point in the 90s but it's considered "stable" at the moment.

I'll have to look through the guide now to check, but do you have any Trowbarrow FAs to your name, Neil?

Yes, that is what my enquiries seem to suggest as well. I should be getting some pre-2000 photos of Main Wall at some point today. So will be interesting to compare. 
 

Col. 

Wow, post them up, that would be really interesting. I've heard all kinds of rumours about main wall. Someone told me Aladinsane was once a finger crack but think they surely must have been pulling my leg.

Interesting question! Whilst Trowbarrow was one of the group of Carnforth crags where I learned the craft, way back in 1979/80, we rarely considered the potential for new routes.

That said, the very first new route I did was at Trowbarrow, in Feb 1980.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/trowbarrow-467/silver_fox-601371

But I was to be disappointed when the pink supplement was published shortly afterwards, and I found that Les Ainsworth had beaten me to it...

What I couldn't understand was how Les managed to grade his line - Aborigine Wall - VS 4c.  I'd given Silver Fox HVS 5b, and by that time I'd done enough routes to be certain that the line was neither VS or 4c!

I finally solved the conundrum a couple of years ago, when I came across Les's original description for AW, and discovered that he moved right at the crux bulge to climb the cracked blocks.  Silver Fox made a tricky pull leftwards through that bulge, which explained the discrepancy in grades.  Subsequent guidebooks had failed to include the crucial line from Les's original description, which would have only added to the confusion.

The line in the current BMC guidebook is wrong for both versions too!  AW moves further right to finish via the cracked blocks above the white streak, whereas Silver Fox doesn't move right at all, instead continuing the same left trending line, through the bulge and then through the middle of the strip roof at the top.

I recently added Silver Fox into the Logbooks database, with an explanation as to why it hadn't been written up for 41 years...!

Of course none of this is of national significance(!), but Carnforth locals interested in the history might find it intriguing...?

And for those really interested in esoterica, there's a slightly self-indulgent list of my new routes here:-

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/set.php?id=121

Neil

Thanks Neil! It seems Silver Fox is one of only a few new routes you've done that I'm likely to be able to tick, so I'll have to give it a look next time I'm at Trowbarrow

Hiya. I got a photo from 1996 and I can say there is zero visible movement in any of the cracks between then and a photo I took at the weekend. A rockfall has occurred underneath the top overhang on the far right hand side, but looking at the wall this is most likely because the rocks were balanced on a spike. I can’t add photos on here as I’m not a paid supporter. Happy to email them to you, and I’ll also do a post on the Lancs Rock Revival group on FB at some point. 
 

Neil, it is interesting what you say about your route Silver Fox. I have climbed that route and also the others around it. Maybe something has changed (rockfall), but didn’t seem like there was any 5b climbing up there. Seems that AW, Dreamtime and SF might need clarification, I will revisit soon to confirm. I’m one of the moderators for Trowbarrow now so can make any amendments. Also helping with the next guidebook. Should be an easy one to clear up. 
 

Col. 

I have some low-res scans of some photos I took climbing at Trowbarrow when I was at school in 1996-98ish.  

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/tt9tb2c5jrye30n/AACjMx3n866v7kckZuJJMegUa?dl=0

Most obvious change is the lack of trees around the base of the walls. 

Also, some high-res photos of the area at the right end of main wall (Helden) taken in 2018. 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/al4c34w2k20qe9d/AAADc6cS-erD0Lbo8zUR3Onea?dl=0

This one in particular makes you think it's not going to be there for ever. Actually quite frightening when you consider the size of the block and what it's sat on :

https://www.dropbox.com/s/z9qrkuzogq0ky6m/IMG_2966.JPG?dl=0